A:EftP - Skills?

[Kinsume]

Which skills should I be focusing on first for my heros? Currently I have...

 

Character One : Level 5 Dual Wielder

Str : 8 (+2)

Dex : 3

Int : 3

End : 5 (+1)

 

Meele Weapons : 7

Tool Use : 3

Cave Lore : 3

 

Improved Str 1

Improved End 1

Sure Hand 1

 

This is my front-liner, he gets all of the best weapons/armors I find at the time and does pretty well so far at staying alive. The only troubles I have are vs mages and currently this Neph encampment with the chief and such, but I think that is just because of my low level.

 

Character 2 : Level 5 Duel Wielder (2nd one)

Str : 8 (+1)

Dex : 3

Int : 3

End : 5 (+1)

 

Meele Weapons : 7

Tool Use : 3

Cave Lore : 3

 

Improved Str 1

Improved End 1

Sure Hand 1

 

This character is my other melee fighter, slightly less geared then my first one but works fine as an off-tank/melee dps.

 

Character 3 : Level 5 Mage

Str : 3

Dex : 3

Int : 9 (+1)

End : 4 (+1)

 

Mage Spells : 7

Tool Use : 3

Arcane Lore : 3

 

Improved Int 1

Improved End 1

Elemental Focus

 

She is my nuker/buffer.

 

Character Four : Level 5 Priest

Str : 3

Dex : 3

Int : 9 (+1)

End : 4 (+1)

 

Priest Skill : 7

Tool Use : 3

Arcane Lore : 3

 

Improved Int 1

Improved End 1

Healing Focus

 

This is my healer/buffer

 

 

Now with that party makeup I know that I will only need 14 tool use total for the game (so I've read). I'm not sure how much I should pump into Cave Lore and Arcane Lore, I don't want to miss alot of stuff.

 

In terms of combat oriented skills, I know to only get Mage/Priest Skill to 17 on those characters however I don't know what I should focus on for them afterwards. With my melee fighters I don't what I should be getting their various skills to, and what order I should be getting them there. I know Hardiness, Parry, Quick action, Blademaster and Dual Wielding are all needing to be leveled however do I level them up evenly or one at a time?

[Randomizer]

You don't need as much tool use in the party and especially that early in the game. The maximum needed is 13 and there are two items that give +1.

 

You might go with sword and shield instead of dual wielding until you have a few more levels if you are having trouble hitting monsters.

 

The front fighter should get hardiness and parry to resistance damage and avoid weapon damage. It starts out slow at 3% per level, but once you get 5 levels you will really start seeing more monsters miss.

[Kinsume]

So how much tool use do you think I should have for early on? My first playthrough I ran into several doors that needed like 6 and 7 tool use and I get kindof annoyed when I can't enter a room because its locked. I guess having 12 this early is a bit of a waste, but wanted to be safe rather than sorry.

[Randomizer]

For the Eastern Gallery tool use of 7 will open every door except a prison cell in Fort Duvno that needs 10. 10 before items will get you through most of the game since the hardest tool use at 13 is to avoid fighting a dragon after you loot the treasure hoard.

 

Some skills can be bought through trainers, but it is expensive.

[Kinsume]

So a couple more questions..

 

-What level should my tank be sword/shield until?

 

-Should I be upping dex on my melee fighters at all or just stick pure str with some end here and there?

 

-Is endurance a constant hp bonus where I can skip it the first few levels and then pump it when I need to. Or does it affect how much hp I gain per level as well?

 

-Is there any point in boosting luck at lower levels?

 

-What is a good scale to use for my mage and priest's skill level, should I do 1 point per level and have my level 17 skill as quickly as possible or is that not necessary and I should invest in other things?

[Randomizer]

Switching from sword and shield to two swords depends upon whether you are hitting monsters. There is a penalty for using two swords so unless you have a high to hit chance or dual wielding ability you may notice that you are missing too often. For low level monsters it doesn't matter, but boss monsters and sliths will make a difference.

 

Dexterity helps avoid some attacks, but unless you are using an archer you won't want to increase it.

 

Endurance can be added at any time. It does help with poison and acid so you might want to add it every third or fourth level.

 

Luck isn't that helpful early in the game.

 

You get extra damage with more mage/priest levels, but having spellcraft for extra percentage damage and resistance to reduce damage helps too.

 

Most of these decisions depends upon difficulty level. On normal difficulty you can make bad choices and not have them affect your game.

[Kinsume]

Yeah even with the screw ups I've made thus far I've had little troubles with any of the encounters. Had to reload once or twice but that was simply due to error on my part. I'm planning on trying out Hard/Torment with a more refined setup and actual plan as to what I'm going to boost. Here is what it looks like thus far...

 

Tank

-3 Str/1 End

-Focus on Melee Weapon/Hardiness/Parry. 2 Points into Tool Use, 2 Points into Cave Lore

-Sword+Shield

 

Dual Wielder

-3 Str/1 End

-Focus on Melee Weapon/Dual Wielding/Quick Action. 2 Points into Tool Use, 2 Points into Cave Lore.

-2xSwords

 

Mage

-3 Int/1 End

-Focus on Mage Skill/Gymnastics/Resistance/Spellcraft. 4 Points into Arcane Lore, 1 Point into Tool Use, 1 Point into Cave Lore

-Bow

 

Healer

-3 Int/1 End

-Focus on Priest Skill/Gymnastics/Resistance/Spellcraft. 3 Points into Arcane Lore, 1 Point into Tool Use, 1 Point into Cave Lore

-Bow

 

 

This is only for the first several levels of the game, basically up to leaving the demo area. From there more AL, TU and CL will be added as needed and I'll focus on maxing the respective areas listed for each character.

 

For my tank, is getting 5 into luck worth it? I noticed that it would add 5% to my armor and 5% to a few of the resistances, but I'm not sure if that is worth the investment or not. As for my Mage and Priest, they'll be using Bows only as an emergency item for when I need to conserve mana or am out of it.

[Kinsume]

My only question is what should I be leveling first for my dual wielder? Do I level Melee Weapons, Blademaster, Quick Action and Dual wielding evenly until they are all maxed?

[Lilith]

Level up Melee Weapons every level, at least until you've got it up to 20 or so. In addition, raise Blademaster, Hardiness and Parry. Quick Action isn't really very good, and Dual Wielding would be good except that you have to buy Quick Action first to get it.

[Kinsume]

Is that just for the dual wielder? Or do I level melee every level with my tank as well? Also is it alright to miss a level or two of melee in order to get things like Tool Use or Cave Lore when I need them?

[Randomizer]

You want melee to get battle disciplines. Some of the higher ones like bladeshield for defense and adrenaline rush for extra attacks are very useful.

 

Cave lore for caches is something you can always go back and do later. You only need a total of 10 in the party to get herb ingredients for wisdom crystals and potions. The last few caches aren't that great.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

You want melee to get battle disciplines. Some of the higher ones like bladeshield for defense and adrenaline rush for extra attacks are very useful.

You also want it because it's the single most efficient skill for improving your damage output early on. Blademaster only becomes better once (Strength + Melee Weapons) exceeds 33.

[Kinsume]

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

Tank
-2 Str/1 End
-Focus on Melee Weapon/Hardiness/Parry. 2 Points into Tool Use.
-Sword+Shield

Dual Wielder
-3 Str/1 End
-Focus on Melee Weapon/Blademaster/Hardiness/Parry. 3 Points into Tool Use.
-2xSwords

Mage
-3 Int/1 End
-Focus on Mage Skill/Gymnastics/Resistance/Spellcraft. 4 Points into Arcane Lore, 1 Point into Tool Use.
-Bow

Healer
-3 Int/1 End
-Focus on Priest Skill/Gymnastics/Resistance/Spellcraft. 3 Points into Arcane Lore, 1 Point into Tool Use.
-Bow

Would this setup work on torment? I'm thinking my frontliners might need more hp and considering going 1/1 for Str/End. As for my healer and mage, what spells should be my primary focus? Would getting a point in mage on my healer for the extra creature summon be worth it as another damage absorber?

[Randomizer]

The most useful mage spell for a healer is daze because in the early game if you can daze most of the swarm then they can't attack you. By the middle of the game almost everything resists daze, but the ensnare at second level is still useful sometimes.

 

The most useful priest spells for a mage are the level 1 minor healing and curing. You can get by without the higher level ones. It doesn't matter how intelligent the character is because even with the maximum mental resistance I've had both spell casters fail in the same round area mental effects and get terrorized or dazed.

 

The party you have should work. You don't need to get gymnastics too early and there are items that will increase action points so you don't need to rely on a chance of getting bonus action points.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

You want melee to get battle disciplines. Some of the higher ones like bladeshield for defense and adrenaline rush for extra attacks are very useful.

You also want it because it's the single most efficient skill for improving your damage output early on. Blademaster only becomes better once (Strength + Melee Weapons) exceeds 33.

Lilith is almost correct. Blademaster is better once (Strength + Melee Weapons + the bonus from your equipped weapon) exceeds 33. The bonus from your equipped weapon, for decent weapons, ranges from about 5 very early to around 11 with the best weapons. Once you factor in that bonus, it is surprisingly easy to get to 33.

Note also that because damage bonuses/penalties are summed, this magic number of 33 may be higher or lower. If you take all the melee damage traits, it will be a bit higher (38). If you dual-wield, it will be a bit lower (27).

In practice:
In the very early game, Melee Weapons is better.
Closer to the end game, you will get more damage out of Blademaster, but the difference is not huge.

What IS useful to know, is that high levels of Melee Weapons do more for your damage output than equivalent points put into Quick Action, Dual Wielding, and Lethal Blow. Don't waste points on those skills.

[Kinsume]

So I do want to get a point in Mage skill for my healer and a point in Priest skill for my mage in order to use the basic spells as well? And around what level do you consider it to be the middle of the game? 10+? 15+?

[Randomizer]

35 is about the end of the game. The Demo area is level 7 to 8, the middle is after doing around Formello when you are over level 10.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

Would this setup work on torment? I'm thinking my frontliners might need more hp and considering going 1/1 for Str/End.

Resist the temptation to overinvest in Endurance, or you'll find that your characters can't hit anything. Your life will be easier in the long run if you invest in your primary combat stat as much as possible, only putting points in Endurance if enemies are one-shotting you. You gain HP naturally as you level anyway, so putting points in Endurance makes less difference than you'd think.

[Kinsume]

Yeah I get what you're saying, it's a pity that endurance isn't exponential for a character's hp when leveling. Having a flat rate lets people pretty much ignore it like they can right now with just tossing a point or two in here and there.

 

I'm currently doing this build on Normal in order to get a feel for its playstyle before going into Torment. There are still some fights, IE the sewer's boss at level 2/3 ish that uses magic, that still get my group's hp pretty low. I don't even want to imagine what that fight would be like on Torment. Granted I don't actually use potions/scrolls/wands on Normal either, or even bother dazing half the time so I guess that plays a big part in it.

 

The build I'm deciding on is this...

 

Tank (Sword+Shield until late game)

-3 Str/1 End

-Focus on 1.Melee Weapon 2.Hardiness 3.Parry

-2 Points into Tool Use.

 

Fighter (Dual Wielder)

-3 Str/1 End

-Focus on 1.Melee Weapon 2.Blademaster 3.Hardiness 4.Parry

-3 Points into Tool Use.

 

Mage (Bow for early game)

-3 Int/1 End

-Focus on 1.Mage Skill 2.Spellcraft 3.Resistance 4.Gymnastics

-1 Point into Priest Skill for minor heal/cure.

-4 Points into Arcane Lore, 1 Point into Tool Use.

 

Healer (Bow for early game)

-3 Int/1 End

-Focus on 1.Priest Skill 2.Spellcraft 3.Resistance 4.Gymnastics

-1 Point into Mage Skill for daze.

-3 Points into Arcane Lore, 1 Point into Tool Use.

 

The problem I forsee is dying, because I'm sure it is going to happen. So other than the Revive Life scroll we get early on, and the priest skill, is there another way to revive dead characters?

 

Also is the order in which my party moves/attacks based entirely on the order I have them in or how exactly is that determined?

 

Edit : Also what made Jeff decide to move the random encounter spawns so close to eachother? I remember vaguely back in the day for like Exile and such you used to have some room to play with when you got into random encounters on the world map. In this you spawn and the enemy is right in your face. God forbid if they get the first move, IE the neph encampment that rapes your team in the first round and has like 12 units in it.

 

Is there a reason why it was made to be like this? I feel like there isn't any actual strategy involved with random encounters. You basically just have to pray you can get your guys split up before the enemies go to town on them with aoes.

[Randomizer]

Entering a town revives dead characters, but in battle you use a scroll or spell if you need those characters back right now. Sometimes the game won't revive characters if the space is occupied even though there are other clear ones.

 

You have default party order or in the options menu you can switch to dexterity/quick action order. The second one will then split monster attacks too with the boss monster usually going first and then the party and remaining monsters going in order of effective dexterity.

 

Using the optional dexterity order helps with those huge outdoor encounters.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

The problem I forsee is dying, because I'm sure it is going to happen. So other than the Revive Life scroll we get early on, and the priest skill, is there another way to revive dead characters?

Dead characters will revive automatically when you return to a friendly town. Apart from that, it's either scrolls or the spell.

Quote:

Also is the order in which my party moves/attacks based entirely on the order I have them in or how exactly is that determined?

There's actually a preference option for this. You can choose to either lock them into the same turn order as their marching order, or let them take turns freely based on their individual Dexterity and Quick Action. There are some advantages to the second option, since the first option means that fast characters' turns will be delayed until after any slower characters who are before them in the party order have already moved.

Quote:

Edit : Also what made Jeff decide to move the random encounter spawns so close to eachother? I remember vaguely back in the day for like Exile and such you used to have some room to play with when you got into random encounters on the world map. In this you spawn and the enemy is right in your face. God forbid if they get the first move, IE the neph encampment that rapes your team in the first round and has like 12 units in it.

Part of it is just that you can move twice as fast in a turn in EftP as you could in Exile or Avernum, since you get 8 base action points per round instead of 4. So it's easier to close in across the same distance than it was in those games.

By the way, just as a piece of advice, please try to avoid using the word "rape" in the way you did. There are rape survivors on these forums who could be upset by people throwing the word around casually.

[Kinsume]

My apologies then, poor choice of wording on my part.

 

I will look into that dex/quick action options, however considering I don't actually use any characters that are dex based, would it actually be better or worse for me?

 

As for the distance issue, my only concern with it is when the enemy's casters get to go immediately and are already in range of my members to cast on them without moving. It can be slightly annoying.

 

As for the reviving thing, that is good to know. Are there any negative side effects to dying that last? Like perm stat loss or anything?

[Randomizer]

No ill effects from dying. Now in the original game it cost money to come back and you left your possessions behind in a pile so they had to be carried back to the healer or they might get lost in an outdoor encounter.

[Kinsume]

Why was that removed? It seems like that option would make Torment all the more challenging.

[Randomizer]

Players complained about the trouble with dying and its cost. Most of the changes occurred because too many people complain.

[Kinsume]

Fair enough, would it be too much of a hassle to make it an optional thing like how people can change the dex/quick action or all at once battle option?

 

Also, is there an answer for my...

 

"I will look into that dex/quick action options, however considering I don't actually use any characters that are dex based, would it actually be better or worse for me?"

 

...question?

[Lilith]

Plus, reducing the penalty for dying encourages players to actually try to press on and keep playing when a character dies. If you make death too inconvenient, at a certain point it makes more sense to just reload the game whenever someone dies. I suppose that's one way to add challenge, but it's a way that limits the player's options rather than expanding them.

 

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

Also, is there an answer for my...

 

"I will look into that dex/quick action options, however considering I don't actually use any characters that are dex based, would it actually be better or worse for me?"

 

...question?

 

It probably won't make much difference. Experiment with the option and decide which setting you prefer, if you want to try it out.

[Kinsume]

It seems like it'd make quick action worth investing in if that option was forced rather than a toggle-able option.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

It seems like it'd make quick action worth investing in if that option was forced rather than a toggle-able option.

Not really. There are very few situations where you get an advantage from forcing party members to act in rank order anyway, since the speed of the faster character is locked down to the speed of the slower character, not the other way around. The only possible benefit I can think of is forcing your priest to go before other characters in order to cure them of effects like charm before their turn comes around.

[Kinsume]

That is what I mean, forcing the dex/quick action move order instead of the default one. Then tossing some points into quick action and dex would be advantageous rather than just skipping out on it them and being just fine.

 

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

That is what I mean, forcing the dex/quick action move order instead of the default one. Then tossing some points into quick action and dex would be advantageous rather than just skipping out on it them and being just fine.

It's not advantageous, though, and the reason has nothing at all to do with the existence of an option to turn it off. Having characters act in Dex/QA order is already superior or at least equal to rank order 90% of the time anyway, so making the other option unavailable would change almost nothing. The actual problem is simply that turn order doesn't matter that much outside of fairly specific circumstances.

[Kinsume]

I'm speaking from a "challenging" point of view, where rather than being able to plan out what actions you will do with your party's turn you may have your healer/mage acting after some enemy monsters rather than in conjunction with your fighter/fighters. I think it'd add a type of depth to the combat system.

[Lilith]

If you think it's strongly advantageous for the party to be able to act in concert, all taking turns in sequence uninterrupted by enemies, that would actually make Quick Action less useful, not more, since melee characters can invest in it and spellcasters pretty much can't.

[Kinsume]

With the default of them all acting at the same time, where the fastest characters are slowed by the slowest one, yes it would be less useful. However if the other option was the default with dex/quick action being the determining factors for when the characters and npcs move, then it would play a larger role in determining whether or not to get it.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

With the default of them all acting at the same time, where the fastest characters are slowed by the slowest one, yes it would be less useful. However if the other option was the default with dex/quick action being the determining factors for when the characters and npcs move, then it would play a larger role in determining whether or not to get it.

You're still not understanding what I'm saying.

If...

(A) you think it's strongly beneficial for the party to all act at the same time

and...

( party members act in descending order of Dex/Quick Action,

then...

© the optimal thing to do under conditions (A) and ( is have nobody invest in Quick Action. Because the only other way to have everybody act at the same time is to have everybody invest in Quick Action, and that's impractical.

In other words, having party members act in order of Quick Action instead of in rank order does not necessarily make Quick Action more useful in itself, and may make it less useful in some circumstances.

[Kinsume]

The point is to not have everyone acting at the same time.

[Lilith]

I still don't understand why you think that taking away the option to have characters act in rank order would make Quick Action more useful, in a way that simply choosing not to use the option when it's not advantageous wouldn't. How does the mere existence of the option make Quick Action worse, even if you never use it?

[Kinsume]

That's my entire point, if the option to not use it wasn't even there and the default mode was set to dex/quick action determining the order in which the characters and monsters act. In turn fighters/archers who invested in quick action would act first as expected, but mages/priests who did not would be acting after monsters in general.

[Lilith]

Look, let's do a quick worked example:

 

You have two PCs, Fred and Wilma. Fred has 0 Quick Action, Wilma has 10 Quick Action.

 

Without the option to go in rank order, Wilma will always act first and Fred will always act second, often with enemies acting in between them.

 

With the option to go in rank order, you can shuffle the party order around so that Fred acts first and Wilma acts immediately afterward, with no enemies intervening. This gives you an additional tactical option.

 

Now, let's suppose instead of Fred and Wilma you have Fred and Barney, both with 0 Quick Action. With or without the option to go in rank order, they'll both act at the same time. The rank-order option doesn't open up any additional tactics for them.

 

The party where some members have Quick Action has more tactical options if there's an option to go in rank order, while the party where nobody has Quick Action has the same number of options regardless. Having the option is a net gain for Quick Action. The current system, therefore, is basically ideal for Quick Action to be as useful as possible: the fact that it still isn't very useful is a sign that Quick Action is just not strong enough in itself.

[Kinsume]

My point is, using your example, there is no logical reason why a PC with 10 Quick Action and dex should be forced to act at the same time as a PC with 0 Quick Action and base dex. Sure it may make things tactically easier to have them all going at the same time, but I feel like it takes away from the gameplay.

 

Again, this is just my opinion on the matter and its probably why both options are there to be chosen from.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Kinsume

My point is, using your example, there is no logical reason why a PC with 10 Quick Action and dex should be forced to act at the same time as a PC with 0 Quick Action and base dex. Sure it may make things tactically easier to have them all going at the same time, but I feel like it takes away from the gameplay.

You justified your preference by saying that it would make Quick Action more useful if you took away the option for the party to act in rank order, though. I just demonstrated that taking away the option won't make Quick Action more useful. It will in fact do the opposite.

As far as logical reasons go, surely somebody with faster reactions can choose to wait until after somebody with slower reactions has acted?

[Kinsume]

There is a difference between choosing to do so and being forced to do so. That is my point, I do recall Exile and such having the feature to simply wait until others have gone to take their turn, however if I do recall correctly they were never forced to wait.

[Lilith]

Well, ultimately it's still you the player deciding what order they act in, you're just making the decision at the time you set the preference option and the party order instead of on a round-to-round basis.

 

For what it's worth, I do agree that making rank-order the default option and hiding the alternative option in an unassuming options window was a questionable decision.

[Kinsume]

Again it is all just personal preference and of course one could argue "Well just use the dex/QA option if you prefer that one." which is of course true and the reason the option is there. However I feel as though the remakes are babying the players a bit too much. Sure for casual players who run through on easy/normal, or even hard in some cases, play the game for fun. I believe Torment should force the dex/QA option and options like the dying penalties that were taken out.

 

As things stand now it feels like less of an achievement to do well in torment as compared to the past versions of the games.

 

Edit :

 

On the topic of Torment, is First Aid worth investing several points into?

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Kinsume: if we really want to maximize the difficulty on torment, how about we go for the realistic option and make character death permanent? None of this sissy "resurrection" crap. Then winning would really be an achievement.

 

Hey, Angband did it. It must be a good idea.

[Kinsume]

That would just bring up alot of saving and reloading and wouldn't really alter the difficulty more than it already is. The penalty system was already in the original game, just removed to make this remake easier for the casual players. I'm not sure if it is possible to re implement it in a single difficulty level, but I believe it should be.

[Slawbug]

Rogue did it, Angband inherited it, and boy is that a different genre of RPG.

 

EDIT: Actually, what Rogue and Angband did is completely different.

 

"Permadeath" a la Rogue means that you only get one save file per game, and when you die, your death is written to that save file. Thus, if you lose a battle, you have to start the entire game over.

 

It sounds like what you are suggesting is simply that when a character dies, they can't be brought back to life. This is very different as it just means you have to reload if anyone dies.

[Kinsume]

That isn't what I'm suggesting at all, someone else suggested that. Frankly I think that type of system would be pointless. Rogue's system is pretty interesting, but that isn't what I'm talking about either.

 

In the original Exile when one of your characters died you had to go a a priest type person and pay to have them brought back to life. On top of that your party members had to pick up all of the gear you had on the dead member, else risk losing it all while you went to go revive them. That is the system I believe should be implemented in this, rather than the current one of "Oh I died? Well that sucks, let me walk into town real quick and everything is all better."

[Kreador]

Of course, the language has changed now in that your characters aren't "dead," they are "unconscious." So the other members of the party put whoever's dead on that person's magic wheelbarrow full of stuff and drag them along until they get to a town or fort, where they wake up refreshed.

[Kinsume]

Exactly, they say it was changed that way due to a high number of complaints. Which I do give Jeff kudos for actually listening to his consumers and agree that the unconscious thing should stay for easy/normal difficulty levels. However I believe Hard/Torment difficulties should be reverted back to the old setup.

 

Now one could argue, well then people would just save and load whenever their character dies and blah blah. This is true, honestly if I had it my way I would limit saves to in town or world map only. That way people would actually have to plan out fights and such for entire dungeons rather than saving before each fight and if they don't like the outcome simply re-loading.

 

That might be asking a bit much, but hey one can hope right?