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Muscleguy

A:EftP - Honeycomb too damn easy and boring

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Is it just me or is the Honeycomb in this version just too easy to wander through? My memory of previous iterations was that there were many more wandering monsters you bumped into when rounding corners etc. I wandered the whole place with hardly a fight in sight, and that on the Hard setting, or does Hard mean 'fewer wandering monsters to level against' or something?

 

Otherwise the game is enjoyable, well done.

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Vent   

I'm replaying Avernum original at Hard difficulty and it is a lot more easy at Hard than AEFTP.

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Superba   

The original Avernum Honeycomb I agree it was a nightmare in terms of fight, more than this, different levels contributed to a scary sense of claustrophobia. Maybe confronting the drake adds some thrilling to the place, but I avoid him, just in case of a future attack to Avernum from the Empire. He's not that bad for a drake and as in Avadom the strongest "good foes" survive the best is for the future of the Land.

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Vent   
Originally Posted By: Superba
The original Avernum Honeycomb I agree it was a nightmare in terms of fight, more than this,...

Since when have you play the original Avernum? I wonder how you find its Hard difficulty that difficult.

In general Avernum at Hard is a lot more easy than AEFTP at Hard but I haven't tried this part. Not only the setup is easier in Avernum but also the economy is very generous this making a huge difference.

But it depends also of the level of your party when you get there. This can change a lot the feeling to get there too late when the outdoor encounters are easy.

Originally Posted By: Superba

different levels contributed to a scary sense of claustrophobia. Maybe confronting the drake adds some thrilling to the place, but I avoid him,

Sure if you compare an old play where you confront it to a recent one where you didn't, it's clear there's a difference. smile

That said it's quite probable that many outdoor lost a part of their mood in the remake.

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Superba   

I left the Honeycomb for the late part of the game, waiting the party to be really effective, because of how hard was Avernum 6 one for me.

However, there seem no need to confront the two Honeycomb 'cause they are different; Avernum 6 one (maybe older games too, can't remember) was entirely underground, while this Honeycomb is simply the name of a surface area which includes drake's liar.

With regard to claustrophobia, that was due to different reasons: the vastity of the Honeycomb, the consequent fear to get lost, the huge amount of time to complete the relate Quests.

For sure levels count a lot, as you state, my first playthrough is on Normal.

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Vent   

Avernum 6 when you wrote "The original Avernum Honeycomb"? Well that's much more a reference of Avernum 1.

 

For Avernum 6 I have no comment I didn't enjoyed it enough to play it much.

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Originally Posted By: FnordCola
You know, there are ways to interact with Athron other than fighting her.
But I really, really wanted a Quicksilver Buckler and don't have TU 13. smile

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Well, one can do both. Talk to her, get various useful items and information from her, then kill her. My point was that Superba didn't have to avoid her lair on the grounds of not wanting to fight her.

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Superba   
Originally Posted By: FnordCola
Well, one can do both. Talk to her, get various useful items and information from her, then kill her. My point was that Superba didn't have to avoid her lair on the grounds of not wanting to fight her.


I used the wrong sentence, I meant I talked to her but avoid the possible fight.

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MissSea   

It makes sense that the Honeycomb would be one level -- the many levels wouldn't be dug out yet, right?

 

Not to thread-hijack, but I'm finding that this game is even more like A4 than I think Jeff probably intended. I'm all over the place, hitting the areas randomly. For example, I did quests in Cotra and Silvar, then went to Formello and cleared that out. Went over to Fort Dranlon, then went across the river to slith territory. I didn't hit the Castle until I had visited Patrick's Tower, completely finished the Honeycomb (minus the Scree Caves) and Undead Spiral.

 

Wasn't that a complaint of A4? You had so much freedom that it became overwhelming?

 

MissSea laugh

 

P.S. A disclaimer: I am a liberal user of the character editor and shift+D. I'm playing more for the game than for the game mechanics.

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Quote:
Wasn't that a complaint of A4? You had so much freedom that it became overwhelming?


I don't believe so. If anything, a lot of people on the forums have been agitating for a less linear game than Avadon and the recent Avernum and Geneforge entries. Non-linearity is also a quality that has drawn a lot of praise, particularly in comparisons of the early Geneforge games to the later ones.

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Originally Posted By: MissSea
Wasn't that a complaint of A4? You had so much freedom that it became overwhelming?

Quite the contrary. A4 is excruciatingly linear, and is considered by many to be the worst of the Avernums. Give me the wide open spaces. Just give me enough "beginner" quests to complete until I've built up my party to where I can take on the lion's share of the baddies.

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A4 is widely considered to be the worst Avernum game, but not because of its linearity -- it has plenty of other bad things going for it.

 

Linearity is a preference. A lot of people here were drawn in to SW either by the Exile Trilogy, or the first Avernum Trilogy; both, like AEFTP, are almost entirely open-ended. It has its plusses and its minuses. Jeff has made it clear that he's not making any new open-ended worlds though, because I guess he gets too many complaints about them from people who ragequit the game because they wander into an area that's too strong for them.

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Jeff said he might in 5 years make another open ended game. But Jeff does hate them because it's harder to balance them for all players.

 

Nethergate: Resurrection is a great example because players that stick to the main quest are much weaker than those that spend hours exploring and doing side quests. So Jeff had to make the main quests easier to give them a chance.

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FWIW, I still don't understand how it is any harder. I understand the explanation that people give. The reality is, however, that even in a game as linear as Avadon, some players will do all the side-quests and think hard about where to put their level up points and which equipment is the best. Other players will do no side-quests and place level up points haphazardly. This imbalance exists regardless of linearity.

 

Personally, I'm inclined to think that non-linearity actually relies some of the pressure of balancing the game. In a non-linear game, if you are the first type of player described above and you find an area or a boss easy, you might say, "Well, I guess I'm just overpowered for this area." And if you are the second type you might say, "Maybe I'll go somewhere else first." In a linear game, you are more likely to get "This game is way too easy" or "This game is way too hard." Some people will ragequit in either scenario.

 

But I will say that, despite Jeff's comment in one of the threads about AEFTP difficulty, there have definitely been FEWER complaints about AEFTP being difficult on the forums, than there have been for previous games like Avadon. I know, I know, tainted sample and everything, but it isn't the forum regulars who make those complaints here anyway.

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Vent   
Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
...some players will do all the side-quests and think hard about where to put their level up points and which equipment is the best. Other players will do no side-quests and place level up points haphazardly...


Lol sure some players put points randomly! OMG you should wake up, think hard IS NOT to do mass of boring tests and reload back and compare this and that and make stats. All of that crap you obviously enjoy a lot to do, almost no players enjoy do that crap.

Think means read the descriptions and if they are wrong or missing important information the game sucks, make choices in accordance of descriptions, adapt if it seems not that good and so on, not a load of crap tests and reload back... I'm dreaming.

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Lilith   

I understand that you want to, well, vent, Vent, but Slarty wasn't insulting anyone, he was just pointing out that different players will reach the same part of the game with different levels of power because they're playing the game differently. There's no need for such a hostile response.

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Given that you read the forums, you could always let other people do the tests and read their results. People like Slarty, who as you say enjoy doing said tests.

 

Also, to echo Lilith: please relax. As far as I can tell, Slarty's comment didn't address you in particular, and was not insulting or inflammatory. Your statements, on the other hand, are insulting and childish. Please either respond civilly to other people, or not at all. Or if not civilly, at least proportionately: I'm not saying you can't respond with anger if someone on here starts insulting your mother and threatening the safety of your friends, but Slarty has obviously done nothing of the sort.

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Vent   
Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
FWIW, I still don't understand how it is any harder...The reality is, however, that even in a game as linear as Avadon, some players will do all the side-quests and think hard about where to put their level up points and which equipment is the best. Other players... This imbalance exists regardless of linearity.

So other players won't choose their equipment according to their power levels and will define their class without thinking of it? That's quite insulting for those other players.

You are taking those other players for total idiots or what? So I'm curious, with your _logic_ who post here and complained about difficulty and are the total idiots you are mentioning?

And don't quote my name even for a joke, I don't like _stupid_ humor you are warned.

All the rest of your post is based on assumption of stupid players playing such games, which is a total non sense, so I won't answer it.

Is this enough civilized? I can't be more correct with someone making the link "total idiots" and "complaining the game is hard" when I'm one of the rare who complained this.

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Quote:
You are taking those other players for total idiots or what? So I'm curious, with your _logic_ who post here and complained about difficulty and are the total idiots you are mentioning?


You are the only person in this thread who has said anything about "idiots." All Slarty said was that there are players with varying levels of skill, interest in sidequests/grinding, and information; I don't see how you can seriously contest this claim. I can't offhand speak to the quality of the conversations you two have had on other threads, but the post you quote reads to me as an argument that non-linear games don't necessarily have a sharper difficulty curve than linear ones. I just don't see the connection between that and Slarty (or anyone else) calling some players idiots.

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Vent   

House is saying some people build their class randomly and choose their equipment randomly...

 

Lol who else apart an idiot would do that????

 

If won't argue more on that, I'm fine if an admin or mod delete my other posts.

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*i   

Vent, I don't like to step in here, but it seems clear to me that you are overreacting. It's okay. We all do it now and again. Please, I ask you to tone down your responses and let's keep this place a friendly environment for everybody. Okay?

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Jeff said he might in 5 years make another open ended game. But Jeff does hate them because it's harder to balance them for all players.
Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
FWIW, I still don't understand how it is any harder... This imbalance exists regardless of linearity.

Harder, as in harder for the developer to balance. An imbalance exists, as in an imbalance in the game where it will never be the perfect difficulty level for everyone. I wasn't even talking about players, really, I was talking about a development issue.

I'm sorry this wasn't clear to you. I hope this clears things up.

P.S. I never said anyone chose things randomly, I said "haphazardly" which is not the same thing as "randomly." Your English is WAY better than my French, but maybe it would be a good idea to be cautious about assuming what people mean, especially assuming mean/negative things. There isn't a lot of that here.

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Vent   

About optimized build and less optimized build, which is a totally different argument. My opinion is the difficulty can't be setup for the optimized builds.

 

Even less when the game collect series of unclear and false and missing information (possibly on purpose) that are important for a class building.

 

If you optimize your build close to the max, which should be at best at second play (for almost all players not following blindly some walkthrough or stuff like that), obviously the game will be too easy, that's why difficulty level like Torment are done.

 

I opened a thread about tactics but quote almost nobody post here, I'd be curious to see what are those amazing secrets making the game so easy.

 

Moreover, original Avernum at Hard didn't provided me at all that same feeling of difficulty at Hard, challenging yes but not difficult. But I replayed it only to level 8/9, I'd say the remake makes better so many points that despite the original had some better points, it's difficult to play it now.

 

EDIT:

haphazardly :

Quote:
hap·haz·ard·ly

[hap-haz-erd-lee]

adverb

in a haphazard manner; at random.

 

See? At random.

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Lilith   
Originally Posted By: Vent
See? At random.


Words with similar meanings can have different connotations that are difficult to explain in the few words that a dictionary definition allows. This is one of those times. Doing something haphazardly doesn't necessarily imply complete randomness, just a lack of planning.

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Vent   
Originally Posted By: Lilith
Originally Posted By: Vent
See? At random.


Words with similar meanings can have different connotations that are difficult to explain in the few words that a dictionary definition allows. This is one of those times. Doing something haphazardly doesn't necessarily imply complete randomness, just a lack of planning.


Lack of planing has no ambiguity use it then. So if there's a problem it's at opposite, some players will plan something and will stick to it too long without to identify the game signals evolution showing the initial plan is going bad.

You can't fully plan at a first play an optimized build it makes no sense because you don't know exactly what's coming.

Most RPG players play the beginning few times with few different parties to get a feedback and then will get some building plan and yes will adapt it in accordance to the game evolution so will break the plan or change it multiple time. It's fine and will end in non perfect builds, but that's how it works.

If now RPG require follow a walkthrough and read some forum to find some strict build to follow, lol. If there's something fun in RPG it's also the class and party building.

Anyway for me, there's potentially a problem with class build in this remake but it's not my case.

That said to come back to OP I explored Honeycomb a lot too late (did it very soon and get wiped so reloaded) ie at level 17, and I agree this part is failed.

I remembered there was some dangerous random encounters that could stuck you in some closed path or corner, but there was none, either the outdoor encounters are generated differently than during the beginning either I just confuse encounters.

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Originally Posted By: Vent
Lack of planing has no ambiguity use it then.

Vent, I speak French. My French is far from perfect. I can communicate in French, but I know that I miss out on lots of subtleties when I use French -- ESPECIALLY on the internet where I can't rely on intonation and expression to help me out.

If I went on a forum populated almost entirely by francophones, and told the people there they should restrict themselves to using the clearest, least ambiguous words without any connotation that would be missing from a short dictionary entry, I'm sure I would get laughed out. And I'd deserve it.

Now, your English is probably better than my French. But you can't expect other people to restrict their use of language for you. When you're speaking a language you aren't completely fluent in, you really have to be cautious about making assumptions. Ask questions, please -- I think you'll find that people here are happy to clarify what they meant. But if you react quickly to misunderstandings, and then make arguments and quote a dictionary definition in a room full of fluent speakers, well, that's not going to go over so well.

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*i   

Agree with Slarty here. There are many subtleties in the English language as there are in just about all other spoken languages. Sorry, we're not going to enforce strict language standards here. Best way is when in doubt, ask.

 

When someone says haphazardly in the context of what Slarty was saying, I don't think random. I think a lack of thought. In this case, not weighing various options about which piece of equipment is better. That's the difference between a casual and a more dedicated gamer; not that there's anything necessarily wrong with either approach up to a point, but balance becomes very difficult because you, as a game developer, need to account for both optimal and highly suboptimal (up to a point) builds.

 

When someone says random, I would think that they selected their equipment based on the roll of dice, flipping coins, random number generator, etc. In other words, players would assign some probability to using a crude dagger and go with that if the random numbers said so.

 

It's a subtle distinction, but to complicate matters, sometimes people will use the words interchangeably. Often times they will say "random" when they really mean "haphazard" or (more commonly) "miscellaneous".

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Vent   

Ok let see the base:

 

Quote:
hap·haz·ard

adj., adv. hap-haz-erd; n. hap-haz-erd]

1.

characterized by lack of order or planning, by irregularity, or by randomness; determined by or dependent on chance; aimless.

 

The word carries multiple meaning and that you use it instead of lack of planning is either you have language imprecisions, either the use of this word was quite deliberated, if you are conscious of it or not.

 

Anyway in one sentence it's about players that think and the other about other players that... what? They don't think? Lol that's ridiculous.

 

And you insist on that is ridiculous, there's a clear elitist meaning in some of your posts. You should take care about that and what it means for other.

 

EDIT:

And you should start understand that it's not because in a post you don't target anybody in particular that you can't hurt. Time you understand that some people will feel to be a part of this category and then will feel your post addressed in part to them.

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There really is a difference between the two types of gamers. I should know, because I tend to go back and forth between the two.

 

When I was beta-testing this game, I played through with a sub-optimal party on normal difficulty for the most part. This party was sub-optimal because I didn't know or plan out any builds for my characters. Basically, I was just playing the game and assigning points to whatever looked interesting at the time. This is haphazard character creation and progression.

 

This is generally how I've played through most of the Avernum games. To be clear, I make poor choices because I don't spend the time or effort to learn how to build the characters optimally. I do not feel insulted because some people play the game 'better' than I do.

 

Geneforge and Nethergate, for some reason, I play through on torment and optimize a lot harder. I don't know why this is, but I guess I'm more interested in challenging myself with those games. Does this make me an elitist player of those games? I'd say not. I could definitely tell you that your builds for those games are sub-optimal, but I'd only do so if you were asking for help or advice. I'd also accept that you might play these games the way I play the Avernums, in which case I'd probably give you the annoying advice of "play on a lower difficulty if you're having problems, or use the character editor to 'fix' your characters." I'd do this because, as a torment player on those games, I recognize that I can't take my Avernum approach and avoid frustration on the harder difficulties. Planning characters can seem like work to some people, so I understand why not everybody does it.

 

In short: players don't always plan their builds in advance or think about their progression. This doesn't mean that they are stupid. It just means that they aren't interested in playing the game in that way.

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*i   

Yes, it has multiple meanings, that's where the subtlety of context arises. I don't like it either, but many words in the English language have multiple meanings.

 

While I hate using dictionaries and arguing definitions, because you can find a reference to justify just about any reasonable definition of the word if you search hard enough, we will. Even the definition you gave uses or, which means the speaker is free to use any one of them. So when I say "haphazard", I could mean any one of "lack of order", "lack of planning", "by irregularity", or "by randomness". Most native speakers can usually grasp the intent of the usage, but, if you are confused, please ask. Don't blame the speaker because the English language itself is imprecise and depends on context for specific meanings, and even then, leaves ambiguity at times.

 

Quote:
Anyway in one sentence it's about players that think and the other about other players that... what? They don't think? Lol that's ridiculous.

 

And you insist on that is ridiculous, there's a clear elitist meaning in some of your posts. You should take care about that and what it means for other.

 

Again, you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. Maybe it's lost in translation here, but calling my (and others) posts "ridiculous" and "elitist" is not very respectful at all, and while I'm trying to be accommodating since I understand the language issues, you're being offensive here, whether you realize it or not. Please stop now.

 

Back to the subject at hand, I'll try to clarify further. Not all players play the game with optimal builds in mind. I venture that many do not. They play the game primarily for the story and don't want to put too much effort into optimizing their builds. It's not because they're ignorant or lazy, it's because the activity of picking the best stats and equipment is just not fun for them. A game developer has to cater to both people who enjoy playing the game, but for different reasons.

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Vent   

My post wasn't targeted to you *i, that's the first point.

 

I notice you quickly ignore how House separated players in two categories those that think and those that don't think. I won't comment more on that I already did.

 

Anyway back to build topic. It's impossible to make an optimized build at first play, just because you can't predict what the game will throw on you. That simple no need to argue more on that! grin

 

You can do as many tests you want and this will change nothing to that point. Example, focus all on To Hit will be a weak build if monsters tend get hit very easily. It's not that simple than just get the max To Hit or max damages or more simply max dpt (damages per turn) to get the best optimized build.

 

Now if you restart the game each time you realize it wasn't the "perfect" build base ok, but well, not many do that and it's not anymore a play but more a sort of replay.

 

The build optimization starts only at replay and many players do that. But at replay and optimizing the builds, and knowing already all tricks, the game is always a lot more easy, and most often it will be too easy. But there's no surprise it is.

 

You still see regularly players at their third play and complaining it is too easy but well, it's more a problem of having or not a difficulty level like Torment. It's not pertinent to link optimized builds to Hard difficulty knowing that Normal has been low down to something more close to Easy.

 

For people playing AEFTP for the story and with no care in choosing the best equipment or improving the current build for their party in their first play, really? Who?

 

Now ok myself and many players do that, I'm used to, on purpose, make some choices I know weaker for the fights but better for something else, it's because I don't want optimized too much and get too easy fights.

 

But when players like that see the game is causing troubles then they put care avoid this and put more focus on improving fighting efficiency in some ways.

 

Also all of that build discussion is really questionable, now during levels 17 and 18 I'm chaining fights I feel quite too easy. So I got the perfect build? Well not the one quoted by House. No just for now I improved a bit too much my party, but I'll see what will follow next and I can't predict it.

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Vent   
Originally Posted By: mauvebutterfly

This is generally how I've played through most of the Avernum games. To be clear, I make poor choices because I don't spend the time or effort to learn how to build the characters optimally.


I'd be curious you explain how, apart by cheating and reading some guide (and anyway you'll follow it more or less blindly), you can play a game the first time and make some "optimized build"?

You just can't because you can't predict what the game will throw on you from begin to end.

For a replay, always a lot more easy, and optimized builds, only Torment difficulty can worth arguing, not Hard, even less when Normal is closer to something like Easy.

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Lilith   
Originally Posted By: Vent

I'd be curious you explain how, apart by cheating and reading some guide (and anyway you'll follow it more or less blindly), you can play a game the first time and make some "optimized build"?


Not everyone sees reading guides as cheating, or if they do then it's a kind of cheating they're okay with. After all, humans are inherently social creatures, so it can be argued that sharing hints with friends is part of the game too.

Anyway, whether you call it cheating or not, many players do make use of the hint book or these forums when planning their first playthrough, in order to know what's most effective. There's usually good advice available on Spiderweb games right from the day they come out, thanks to beta testers. Also, some players will have more experience than others with previous Spiderweb games, and some of that experience can be applied to new games. Players who take advantage of that advice and experience will have more effective parties than players who don't, and it's hard to balance a game for both groups. That's all Slarty was ever saying. If you read hostility or condescension into his tone, you were mistaken.

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Vent   

Clearly anyone "cheat" as much he wants and I'm fine with that. But then he shouldn't argue that the game difficulty is fine or easy. That seems to me more fair. It's at same level than starting arguing about a game difficulty for a replay.

 

I'm fine to argue about that (difficulty at replay or following guide or walkthrough) but then it should be clear it's in the context of some "cheating" or some replay. Something rather different than a play.

 

Class building and equipment are an element where players manage it differently and this is generating some differences but that's relative at a first play, the difference isn't that huge out of the context of a replay or following some guide, or trying some experiment with some very special party like only mages.

 

But the game needs provide good information and AEFTP is probably perfectible on that point. For example the default party could launch the player on some false tracks, or the tooltips with important missing information and the few with some wrong information could misguide players, or the game would benefit on multiple better balance making better multiple more or less logical choices of class building.

 

But another point could make a bigger difference it's in digging all the tricks the game can provide. That can takes a lot of time and some player will put a lot of time in this even at first play. When some other will spend quite less time in such task time consuming with an uncertain reward.

 

I think this point more than equipment and class building can make important differences between players. Classes builds and equipments are under the eyes of all players, and more or less all plays RPG at least in part for that. But spend a lot of time for possibly not much result, this will generate more different players behaviors.

 

For a game like AEFTP, very open, and with many tricks at disposal of the player if he find them, that probably can makes a more important difference in difficulty than some standard class building and equipment management.

 

I wrote in a previous post that a standard difficulty test should not be done by exploiting all possibilities of the game too soon, but it's a difficult matter because in a game like AEFTP it's an important part of the gameplay, and the game is very open.

 

For example exploring an area a lot too dangerous for the party but trying slip through dangerous outdoor encounters is an important mechanism of the game and a good fun of it. Exploit this more can allow find quite more tricks that can make the play easier. For the secrets the new mechanism making them much less secrets I think the difference will be less important between different players. For digging dialogs well a player not reading them will have hard time very soon but putting more or less care into digging them will skip some important information, tips or good easy quests to do.

 

Myself I probably exploited not enough the full game exploration possibilities and found some important tricks too late. Perhaps sooner would have change a lot my feeling about the difficulty.

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Originally Posted By: Vent
Also all of that build discussion is really questionable, now during levels 17 and 18 I'm chaining fights I feel quite too easy. So I got the perfect build? Well not the one quoted by House.

For the record, I never posted (or "quoted") a "perfect build." Somebody asked for some quick-and-dirty build suggestions, so I posted a very simple one. It certainly wasn't a "perfect build," whatever that would mean.

Originally Posted By: Vent
I notice you quickly ignore how House separated players in two categories those that think and those that don't think. I won't comment more on that I already did.

I'm not sure why my posts seem so elitist and offensive to you. I'm sorry that they do; it isn't intentional. But please stop complaining about it. Other people have told you they disagree and asked you to stop, and nobody has spoken up in agreement with you. Please, let's just move on.

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Vent   
Originally Posted By: Lilith
..you were mistaken.

I don't think all his friends are objective in that matter, and that's normal.

What I mistaken? That it's not targeted to me? That is clear but that doesn't mean I don't feel concerned and then get it for me. A post targeted to nobody in particular will take the risk that some people will take it as targeted to them. It's not the best behavior but not expecting that is wrong.

If someone post something classifying in players that think and players that don't, he shouldn't be surprised to get some reaction even if it's not justified. And not targeting to anybody in particular but some category justify nothing. If it wasn't on purpose it was still a provocation.

Sure it was easy to ignore but few after reading a post where I was wondering what would be the cause of something, and he ask if nobody would know what _obvious_ causes would be possible?

Sure non deliberate... and I could ignore but I didn't. I wonder what brilliant English language lessons will explain those "think" and "obvious".

I already apologize first time, tried take it with humor second time (yellow smile) but third was enough. And I don't care it wasn't targeted to me it's not the point.

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Lilith   

Vent, however you want to phrase it, what it comes down to is that some players do have more effective strategies than others, and the design of the game has to take into account. We've even agreed with many of your points about issues with game balance in Avernum, we've just stated them in different ways and emphasised different things.

 

You've been continually and needlessly hostile in response to people stating simple facts, and as a result I don't see any prospect of friendly discussion resuming in this thread, so I'm locking it. This discussion is at an end, and while people are free to start a new thread to discuss balance issues with the game, any attempt to restart this argument in a new thread won't be looked upon kindly. This isn't the first time you've taken an excessively hostile tone on these forums, so you can consider yourself officially warned: if you can't stay calm, don't post.

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