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A:EftP - "Knockback" blows!


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Because you're not supposed to use it in all situations? If you're using it on squishy wizards who can attack at range and suck in melee, you're doing something wrong. It's very useful (especially in combination with ensnare/immobilize) for getting dangerous melee enemies out of range. On the higher difficulties there are enemies that can rip you to shreds in melee, and knockback can keep them from hitting you, or at least make them waste AP to get back to melee range.

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Let's say I'm using it on Bob Melee, who has 8 AP and strong defensive stats. I "d c" him to cut down those stats, and he's 2 steps away. Joy. I can't hit him, but he uses 2 of 8 AP to walk back up and stab me. Granted, I'm playing on "normal" and am therefore not a real person, but... really? There used to be a useful "take off his armor" battle discipline; now there isn't.

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Quote:
Granted, I'm playing on "normal" and am therefore not a real person, but... really?


Wow. Relax. The fact that I cite higher difficulties doesn't mean I look down on those who don't play them. I've switched between normal and hard on this play, so it's not as if I have much of a high horse to get up on.

Wasting 2-3 AP can mean the difference between attacking once and attacking twice on many enemies. By the late game (I can't remember if knockback effects scale with level, but it's possible), shield breaker moves the target 3 spaces, and mighty blow 5. Also, shield breaker causes ensnare, so your example is specious: provided the ensnare effect hits, Bob Melee shouldn't be able to reach you that turn.
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Originally Posted By: othersean
Why, oh why, did "knockback" have to make its way from Avadon to Avernum? Battle disciplines "d c" and "d g" are almost useless, since they move your enemy out of melee range, forcing you to use a missile weapon for your second hit (with haste).


So hit first and then use after a special attack with a knockback effect. But also if you don't want knockback an enemy don't use an attack with knockback effect, it's that simple. laugh

More seriously, knockback can be useful in some special cases. Here some cases where you could use knockback:
  • To push back and immobilize a strong close range enemy so a weaker one can replace it and serve you as a shield, then you quietly kill the strong enemy with long range.
  • To break some enemy line and reach a mage protected by some other enemies. That's more rare but I remember in Avadon for a fight that made a huge difference.
  • To win some time against a strong enemy because of the ensnared effect.
  • Pushback without any immobilization effect is less useful because you don't have many characters. But If you have two strong enough close range, the first can knockback an enemy to open the passage for the second warrior. And don't forget you can swap another character when you move.


But for sure it's only for some special situations, use another special attack if you don't want knockback but have the option can be cool, particularly with an immobilization effect.

Also it's clear that Haste providing two attacks is quite powerful. But if it means never move but just make contact with enemies and hit blindly, then you are missing a lot of tactic opportunities involving movements.
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Originally Posted By: waterplant
Or Knockback an enemy through a doorway into another room and quickly close the door on him. Oh, wait... tongue


Mpf to have the enemy open the door the next round, very useful... laugh

I have quoted few SUPPOSED ipadization like that, but you get used to it and the door thing is a bit minor. For me the worst is the secrets that are no more secrets well apart on an ipad screen for which those huge buttons are obviously done, really it should be an option or even it should be different for ipad and computers. There's one supposed ipadization that I quoted and enjoyed, it's the option for bigger characters, that's cool even if it's only for some messages.

About ipad and the global map, it is already hard to read on a huge computer screen, on ipad screen not sure it won't generate some complaints.
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Ah, but there are secrets and secrets. Have you found the other kind without buttons yet?

 

This game kept me rocking with all the fun stuff going on. Two kinds of secret door, boats, and later, something totally new and col as heck. No hints on that until some people find it on their own, but it's the kind of thing that will make you want to go exploring the whole map again!

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Originally Posted By: jetcitywoman
Ah, but there are secrets and secrets. Have you found the other kind without buttons yet?

Ah, but there are secrets and secrets. Have you found the other kind without buttons yet?

This game kept me rocking with all the fun stuff going on. Two kinds of secret door, boats, and later, something totally new and col as heck. No hints on that until some people find it on their own, but it's the kind of thing that will make you want to go exploring the whole map again!

Two types of buttons and two types of secret doors?

Well many buttons are impossible to not quote including some referenced as hidden in some dialogs, few a slightly hidden through a wall texture a bit of same color or some embedding into some stuff, but that's all I quoted, it's still many opportunities of better mid secrets lost, and on iPad most will be most often a nice simple challenge to quote them.

I don't even see one type of secret doors, for me they are all opened by some buttons supposed to be partially hidden.

Well there's few linked with quests events and without buttons but that's different stuff. Also for outdoor "secret" passages aren't even hidden now.

That said, if some dungeons lost a little bit of their mood in comparison with original Avadon (never played the Exile version) and mainly because of the weak light management making using lights almost pointless, well except perhaps to be sure to quote items on ground (but that was better done in Avadon). Anyway that weak light system is still bad for the mood and that point was quite better with older engines.

That said the port of the dungeon where you are thrown into dark is well done. Also overall there's plenty elements better, the graphics, the interface, the fights, have the list of quests (but not sure the quest markers on map help the game but I doubt it would have been wise to not use them for contemporary players). I even prefer the class system, if at least the numerous glitch was corrected, like the multiple wrong tool-tips or obviously bugged mechanism like the spell giving only 2% To Hit no matter its level. Ha well for now it's a blast anyway despite I remember many things from a play about 4 years ago.
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I'll try to think of creative uses of knockback, but I can only repeat something I already wrote:

Originally Posted By: othersean
There used to be a useful "take off his armor" battle discipline; now there isn't.

When you knew you would be hacking away at something for awhile, there used to be a battle discipline to remove its armor. Now that battle discipline also removes said thing from melee range. (And no, "hit first, then 'd c'" doesn't work, since the second hit is random.)

 

It's not a big deal -- the game is fun enough that I bought it, unlike the original Avernum -- but the ability to use melee to weaken a foe and simultaneously remove it from melee range is kind of silly.

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Knockback can also be useful for organizing enemies into a tighter group for area attacks (like Daze and all the later ones) by your priest and mage.

 

When I fought Thexa Bloodsucker in the crypt, the only way I survived was knocking it back into the room and getting one of the lesser undead in the doorway. That limited where Thexa's attacks could go, so I could always keep one character safe to raise the rest back from unconsciousness.

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Originally Posted By: othersean

...there used to be a battle discipline to remove its armor. Now that battle discipline also removes said thing from melee range.
...

So your complain isn't about Knockback in general, but you made OP and thread title like if you had a complain in general about Knockback.

What's this Battle Discipline?

And for additional hits, with Gynmastics you get more AP so you can see when you get bonus hit, now ok there's this new ability giving just a bonus hit and for it you can't predict the bonus.
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Originally Posted By: othersean
I'm a terrible person, and apologize for spoiling your universe by existing.


OMG that's ridiculous I'm only asking the Battle Discipline name and you react like that.

Well perhaps I wrote something without realize it, not on purpose, it's just English isn't my language, at all.
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Originally Posted By: othersean
Thank God I'm at least worth a chuckle for "FnordCola".


Please calm down. Nobody is attacking you personally, we're just trying to get some clarification on what you meant. But if this discussion is stressing you out, feel free to take a break from it.
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Sorry about that -- it was a bad day for me, and I should not have been posting.

 

I'm still not a fan of knockback, though, using my usual party of two melee fighters, a priest, and a mage. The old disciplines used to be tactically useful when fighting a tank-ish boss, since you could take off its armor with shieldbreaker, then hack away with melee and the odd mighty- or well-aimed-blow. Unfortunately, the new disciplines knock the enemy around the room, forcing you to chase it or use missile attacks.

 

They may be more useful for a missile-oriented party, but they're much less so for melee. Also, when both you and the enemies have this ability, fights turn into some weird kind of pinball.

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I haven't seen in AEFTP any discipline allowing directly lower the armor. You should read more carefully the descriptions because a similar discipline name doesn't mean the same thing than in another game.

 

In AFTP Shield Breaker only knockback and immobilize the opponent. Ok you can argue the name doesn't fit, I'm not good enough in English to know that, but in general read the descriptions, even if very few are wrong or omit some important element.

 

To lower enemy defense there's Leg Sweep but if I remember well some post it is based on DEX not STR so still not for your tank.

 

There's a lack of tool to lower enemy defense, even the War Blessing that should allow indirectly lower enemy defense by increasing attack seems have a bug and always increase To Hit only of 2%.

 

Perhaps you can check anyway Leg Sweep and it's perhaps not linked to DEX like I remember.

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Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves
It's Blade Sweep that is linked to Dex. I have no reason to think that Leg Sweep is, but I can't check right now.


I don't mean I suspect it is, I didn't remember, the point is I'm using it more when I have hard time to hit but you need succeed a hit and this is when it's in case where it's harder to hit, so it gives a general feeling of hardly working.
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Yeah, there's a lot of ping pong, especially later in the game when basic enemies start using more disciplines. They also use the knockback & ensnare/immobilize combo a lot. Fortunately, the AI is pretty dumb about targeting: they'll use it on casters and archers nearly as often as melee fighters. There are a few boss fights in which knockback and teleportation effects are really obnoxious, though.

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