Troy Davis

[VCH]

What do those of you in the US think of this? My initial impression is OMG WTF America!

 

Troy Davis

[Dantius]

Eh, use of the death penalty is perfectly justified and acceptable if it's clear beyond the shadow of doubt that the person was guilty, which was clearly not the case with Davis.

 

My beef with the case is pretty much the manner of the evidence that lead to the conviction. IIRC Davis was convicted on eyewitness testimony, which any psychologist would tell you is horribly inaccurate, since people can easily convince themselves they've seen something that didn't happen, but is still widely accepted as authoritative by juries. So you wind up with people convicting on flawed testimonies that are taken as fact by juries. Not a good situations.

[Enraged Slith]

Read up on NC's recent legal troubles some time. We're incorruptible.

[Harehunter]

In Texas, at least, the District Attorneys have a high bar to reach before they can call for the death penalty. This is on top of the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' for the conviction. Yes, Texas has the highest number of people on death row, and the highest number of executions in the nation. The recent passage into to law of an alternate penalty, life without parole, has diminished that number somewhat.

However, I feel that in some cases the death penalty is completely justifiable as in the James Byrd case .

I know that the son of James Byrd is protesting the execution of his father's murderer, but the nature of the crime, IMHO, warrant's the death penalty.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Thomas Jefferson

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It can be argued that the last two rights can be forfeited to protect other people's rights, but I fail to see how the first right adheres to that argument.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

to tell you the truth, I have always felt that life in prison without parole is more immoral than the death penalty.

speaking for myself i would much rather a quick end than being in prison for all of eternity

[Kelandon]

It's almost irrelevant whether the death penalty could ever be an appropriate punishment. The unbelievably racist pattern of assigning it throughout basically all of the U.S. is enough to say that our system for doing it is so broken that we would have to redesign the system entirely in order to get a functioning capital punishment system. At that point, we should just scrap it and save the debate.

 

This is only the beginning of a whole series of problems with the criminal justice system. Troy Davis's case is notable for the wild evidentiary problems and alleged police misconduct. Six of the nine witnesses claimed to be threatened by the police if they didn't identify Davis as the killer. All of those, plus another, recanted their testimony. They also implicated the person who had pointed the finger at Davis originally. There was basically no other evidence than these eyewitnesses.

 

But the entire system is plagued with racism, and perhaps even worse than that, incarceration on a scale unprecedented and unplanned for. Well over 7 times as many people are incarcerated as were forty years ago. Enough African-Americans in some Southern states have been convicted of felonies and have permanently lost their rights to vote that we're approaching the disenfranchisement of the pre-Voting Rights Act of 1965 era. Children of 13 and 14 are being sentenced as adults (huh?) and put in adult prisons, where they are brutally abused, not occasionally, but as a matter of course.

 

The whole system is full of gross injustice. This is probably just another example.

[Alorael at Large]

The person who first indicated that Davis was the murderer later confessed to the murder. Davis is the one who will almost certainly be executed this evening. The problems with the capital punishment system go beyond grave and enter into the realm of the ludicrous.

 

Darth Ernie, I agree that I would rather not have a life sentence without parole. The problem is the duration. With all the mandatory appeals and examinations, the death penalty is not quick. The average time to execution is over ten years, and at most it has taken more than 30 years between sentencing and execution. Davis, almost certainly innocent, has spent 22 years, or more than half of his life, awaiting execution.

 

—Alorael, who cannot understand the rationale behind life without parole or execution, really. People can change, and if they don't you don't parole them. The death penalty serves only as a deterrent, and it's probably not especially stronger than the idea of a life spent behind bars.

[Sarachim]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

In Texas, at least, the District Attorneys have a high bar to reach before they can call for the death penalty. This is on top of the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' for the conviction.

Tell that to Cameron Todd Willingham.

[Aran]

Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie

to tell you the truth, I have always felt that life in prison without parole is more immoral than the death penalty.
speaking for myself i would much rather a quick end than being in prison for all of eternity

I'd be all for people being allowed to opt out of life with dignity, whether or not they are sentenced to life in prison. However, when you speak of your own personal preference, you implicitly assert the right to choose.

[Callie]

Originally Posted By: Arancaytrus

Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie

to tell you the truth, I have always felt that life in prison without parole is more immoral than the death penalty.
speaking for myself i would much rather a quick end than being in prison for all of eternity

I'd be all for people being allowed to opt out of life with dignity, whether or not they are sentenced to life in prison. However, when you speak of your own personal preference, you implicitly assert the right to choose.

Yeah, I personally don't support the death penalty but wouldn't be personally opposed to offering assisted suicide. That would end up being even more problematic than capital punishment though, so it wouldn't be practical.

[Slawbug]

Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

[Alorael at Large]

The US Supreme Court has intervened after the scheduled execution time (but before the execution!) to delay yet again, beating their previous record of injunction 90 minutes before execution.

 

—Alorael, who worries that a country that requires "beyond a reasonable doubt" for conviction can seriously have to discuss whether there is good enough evidence for execution, which many judicial authorities doubt. That whole "reasonable doubt" isn't reasonable at all, apparently.

[Tyranicus]

Sometimes, it seems that nothing short of video evidence of someone else committing the crime (and maybe not even then!) can overturn a case after the jury votes guilty.

[Necris Omega]

While I've nothing against the concept of sentencing the most heinously guilty to the ultimate expression of punishment, the details of this case just do not sit well with me. It seems it should not have taken so long, or even such a high court to throw the breaks on this execution...

 

But... what's done is done. If Mr. Davis was wronged in the end of this life, may he find justice in the next.

[Tyranicus]

The Supreme Court has rejected the appeal. He will be executed. There is no stopping it now. Times like this make me utterly ashamed to be an American.

[Soul of Wit]

No death penalty in Michigan (except for the rare federal case.) Glad I live here.

[VCH]

This whole situation makes me profoundly sad. I keep thinking how terrible it would be to be wheeled into the execution chamber knowing you didn't do the crime. It must be such a powerless feeling.

 

It's a good thing the guy was religious, other people such as myself wouldn't have been quite so complacent about death.

 

In the end the death penalty is too final; there's no way to ever make amends. I thought our justice system understood that.

 

[TakePart]

Its unbelievable, but this happens in so many other parts of the world as well. We just did a story on this at TakePart.com http://www.takepart.com/article/2011/09/20/troy-davis-and-china-iran-north-korea-yemen-usa-club

[Harehunter]

Originally Posted By: Pleasantries vs. Promises

—Alorael, who cannot understand the rationale behind life without parole or execution, really. People can change, and if they don't you don't parole them. The death penalty serves only as a deterrent, and it's probably not especially stronger than the idea of a life spent behind bars.

I cannot speak to the Troy Davis case because I don't know anything about it and don't have the time to research it due to 60 hour work weeks.

I have served on a jury in a murder trial. I won't go into any detail, but in this case the D.A. could not prosecute for the death penalty. Why? Because there was no way to prove that this man was the primary assailant or if he was just an accomplice. During the voire dire, the D.A. explained some of the rules concerning the application for the death penalty. These rules were explained again during the trial. After the trial, both the D.A. and the defending lawyer came in and told us many things about the case that could not be presented during the trial, things that would have affected a jury to more likely choose the death penalty had it been an option. Why was the evidence withheld? Rules of Evidence did not allow it. For example, the defendant and his traveling partner had a long history of assaults and thefts. This evidence would have been allowed during the punishment phase of the trial, basically another trial in itself, but not allowed in the first part because it had no bearing on the one crime being tried at the time.

I have served on three other juries as well, both civil and criminal. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on the law, but I have had some exposure to some of the details that most people will never know. That is how I know that only the most serious murders are ever presented with the option for the death penalty, at least in Texas. Laws are different in other states, so I won't speak about those. From what excruciatingly little I have read about the Troy Davis case, Georgia may have problems with their legal system, and most especially with their appeals court, but I don't live there.

On the other hand, the James Byrd Jr. case in Texas has been very much in the news, not only at the time of the crime but again recently as the first defendant was put to death yesterday. Knowing what I do, and I followed the story very closely, I would have to agree with the jury with regard to the following:

Originally Posted By: See story linked above

To impose the death penalty, the jurors in Brewer's trial had to answer three questions under Texas law:

-- Would Brewer be a threat to society in the future;

-- Did Brewer mean to kill Byrd;

-- And, were there mitigating circumstances that would warrant sparing Brewer's life?

To sentence Brewer to death, the jurors voted unanimously on each question -- answering the first two yes and the last no.

Alorael, you are right that in most cases, people convicted and imprisoned for their crimes do change.
But in some cases, such as this, there was no way to believe at that time that Brewer could be rehabilitated, which was confirmed this past few weeks. During a recent interview with Brewer, he not only showed no remorse, he said that he would have done it again.

I do not advocate the application the death penalty for most cases. But the Jasper D.A., a devout Catholic who doesn't like the taking of any life, said that this is one of a very few cases for which capital punishment is justified.

[Alex]

A black guy being sentenced to death by a mostly black jury is clearly part of the giant white racist conspiracy. Also, any crimes committed by black people are to be blamed either on the victims, or on the white racist conspiracy, of which Barack Hussein Obama, who is secretly a KKK member, is also a part. He is one of the secret masterminds behind the heinous genocide against black people, due to which there are hardly any blacks left in the world. Most of the nearly one billion people claimed to be living in Africa are the either propaganda lies or neo-nazi skinheads posing in blackface.

[Harehunter]

Originally Posted By: Alex

A black guy being sentenced to death by a mostly black jury is clearly part of the giant white racist conspiracy. Also, any crimes committed by black people are to be blamed either on the victims, or on the white racist conspiracy, of which Barack Hussein Obama, who is secretly a KKK member, is also a part. He is one of the secret masterminds behind the heinous genocide against black people, due to which there are hardly any blacks left in the world. Most of the nearly one billion people claimed to be living in Africa are the either propaganda lies or neo-nazi skinheads posing in blackface.

How does this relate to the James Byrd case I was talking about? Did you read the link I cited?

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

"This is a situation where if you don't give the death penalty to this man, he will kill again," said Gray.

See, here's my problem. If he's guilty, fine, he's guilty. Put him in prison, and if he hasn't been rehabilitated, don't parole him. But what did executing him accomplish? This man can't kill again if he is in an even remotely competently run prison.

Sometimes, people are wholly evil and cannot be redeemed. But it does not follow that they should die.

—Alorael, who still finds it amazing that a man was executed for a crime that he probably did not commit. Sometimes these things are recognized to be wrong in hindsight. Rarely is the opinion so skewed towards it being a mistake for decades before the execution.

[Alex]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

How does this relate to the James Byrd case I was talking about?

It does not, I was actually inspired by Kelandon's fiery rant against The Man. Maybe I should have quoted his post.

[Karoka]

Living the rest of your life in prison is probably a harsher treatment than immediate execution, though. Even if he was guilty, prison would have been better than the death penalty because he could get out if they find out he was innocent.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

The Supreme Court has rejected the appeal. He will be executed. There is no stopping it now. Times like this make me utterly ashamed to be an American.

No, not really. Doing things like pointlessly invading a Middle Eastern country because you fell like it, causing hundreds of thousand of deaths, destabilizing the region, creating terrorist threats to the US and US citizens abroad, instantly expending the quite substantial post-9/11 goodwill towards America, and running up a bill in the trillions of dollars makes me utterly ashamed to be America.

Wrongly executing one person, or even wrongly executing ten thousand people, doesn't even come close to that.

[Duck in a Top Hat]

Originally Posted By: Flame Fiend

Living the rest of your life in prison is probably a harsher treatment than immediate execution, though.

Maybe it is, but if you're going to execute someone out of mercy they should have a choice in it.

Originally Posted By: Flame Fiend

Even if he was guilty, prison would have been better than the death penalty because he could get out if they find out he was innocent.

I agree with this. IMHO, no one should ever be executed unless it was certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were guilty and that they could never change. And even then, it should be used sparingly if not at all.

[Alorael at Large]

There's enough American shame to go around. Unplanned, unjustified, and unfunded invasions are one reason. Miscarriages of justice are another. Crumbling infrastructure and education while the country deadlocks over basic requirements of government make a nice third.

 

—Alorael, who has spent a lot of the last decade facepalming over America. And it came right on the heels of a pretty triumphant decade, too.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Duck in a Top Hat

Originally Posted By: Flame Fiend

Even if he was guilty, prison would have been better than the death penalty because he could get out if they find out he was innocent.

I agree with this. IMHO, no one should ever be executed unless it was certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were guilty and that they could never change. And even then, it should be used sparingly if not at all.

It's also possible to argue that you can execute persons whose incarceration would directly cause deaths, such as Osama bin Laden, even if you only have a preponderance of evidence instead of beyond a shadow of doubt.

[Lilith]

is a troy davis equal to 1.09714 avoirdupois davises

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Pleasantries vs. Promises

—Alorael, who has spent a lot of the last decade facepalming over America.

Originally Posted By: Lilith

is a troy davis equal to 1.09714 avoirdupois davises

And now I'm facepalming over an Australian. What's the conversion between American and Australian facepalms?

[VCH]

Can't we just decide that governments and courts should never have the power to kill people, their own people at least. I mean, what does it accomplish?

 

As for the "better dead than life in prison argument", I don't agree. Life is short, and precious; I would rather live my life in prison. Or at least, if I knew that my only options were death or life in prison, I would pick prison every time. Again, your religiosity may compensate, but my lack of does not.

 

Edit: Now it's time to go run 20km, and feel happy that I am privileged to do so.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

is a troy davis equal to 1.09714 avoirdupois davises

No, but it is equal to 31.1034768 Louis XVI's.

[Slawbug]

What was so triumphant about the 90's, Alorael?

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

What was so triumphant about the 90's, Alorael?

Economic boom propelled by massive growths in the blue dress industry the Internet, communications, and computing? Increased globalization? End of the Cold War?

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

but i was in grade school then. so it sucked

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie

but i was in grade school then. so it sucked

lol

[Alorael at Large]

The end of the Cold War and a strong economy. America's reputation abroad was solid, if not sterling, and the deficit became very briefly a surplus, and life could only get better.

 

It wasn't a perfect decade by any means, but it was the decade in which the existential threat of the end of civilization retreated. There were disasters like the Rwandan genocide and Kosovo, but they were, bluntly, not here.

 

—Alorael, who wonders if the level of boasting about how nothing could stop America now reached some kind of peak around the turn of the millennium.

[Kelandon]

Originally Posted By: Alex

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

How does this relate to the James Byrd case I was talking about?

It does not, I was actually inspired by Kelandon's fiery rant against The Man. Maybe I should have quoted his post.

You could try to interpret the data differently, but the statistics remain the statistics.

[Harehunter]

Originally Posted By: Duck in a Top Hat

I agree with this. IMHO, no one should ever be executed unless it was certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were guilty and that they could never change. And even then, it should be used sparingly if not at all.

That is the standard in Texas. It is actually a second trial to prove the question of recidivism beyond a reasonable doubt. And I could not agree more thoroughly that it should be used sparingly.

It still burns me that those people who are sentenced to life in prison have become a burden on society, instead of an asset. I would not be opposed to anything that could change that equation.

[Dintiradan]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

It still burns me that those people who are sentenced to life in prison have become a burden on society, instead of an asset. I would not be opposed to anything that could change that equation.

How so? Are you talking about stuff like penal labour?

[Alorael at Large]

Feeding, housing, and most of all securing prisoners is expensive. It costs over $20,000 per year per prisoner, on average, in the USA. Most prisoners are there too temporarily to really be productive even if they were set to prison labor: most are simply awaiting trial and unable or unwilling to pay bail.

 

—Alorael, who would also imagine that as crimes get more serious and security becomes tighter, labor becomes more difficult. In a supermax prison the prisoners can't really interact much at all, which largely rules out any kind of efficient unskilled labor.

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

It still burns me that those people who are sentenced to life in prison have become a burden on society, instead of an asset. I would not be opposed to anything that could change that equation.

How so? Are you talking about stuff like penal labour?

Ooh, I know! Organ extraction!

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Custom Title

America's reputation abroad was solid, if not sterling,

I know Europeans liked Clinton, but seriously, the 90's were full of fulminating hate against the U.S. from within less prosperous, less Western countries.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

It still burns me that those people who are sentenced to life in prison have become a burden on society, instead of an asset. I would not be opposed to anything that could change that equation.

Ideally, anyone who is in prison for life is less than a burden on society on the inside than out because they're guilty of heinous crimes and would be at risk of committing more if they went back into society.

Practically speaking, the best way to prevent people from jail time and becoming a burden on society is to make sure they don't end up sitting in jail in the first place. That means reducing sentences for lesser crimes, providing people with help and education before they commit crimes, and providing ex-prisoners with proper support so they are less likely to commit additional crime.

Executing people doesn't make them less of a burden, since they take up extra time and money in the court system with appeals. Plus, killing an innocent person should be considered more of a burden than letting guilty people live, and there's no way to be sure an innocent person won't slip through the cracks and be given the death sentence even in the best run judicial system.

Dikiyoba.

[Trenton.]

I would rather have ten people who are guilty to go free than one innocent person being put to death wrongly.

[Sullust]

Originally Posted By: Trenton the dragon lord

I would rather have ten people who are guilty to go free than one innocent person being put to death wrongly.

I'd want to know what those ten people did before I'd make that kind of decision...

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Originally Posted By: Custom Title

America's reputation abroad was solid, if not sterling,

I know Europeans liked Clinton, but seriously, the 90's were full of fulminating hate against the U.S. from within less prosperous, less Western countries.

The oughties quickly brought America's reputation down to mistrusted among Europeans as well as everyone else. Oh, and among a not insignificant portion of Americans.

—Alorael, who doesn't think America could conceivably please all the countries all the time. Some of the countries most of the time would be nice.

[Harehunter]

Originally Posted By: Trenton the dragon lord

I would rather have ten people who are guilty to go free than one innocent person being put to death wrongly.

That is a good sentiment. However, too often this sort of thing happens.

As to the responses to my comment about the cost of imprisonment, I thank you all. I have considered all of these things, especially the cost of numerous, mandatory in Texas, appeals that are required before an execution can be carried out. We cannot treat prisoners inhumanely. It just seems like a waste of taxpayer dollars.

BTW Trenton, I like your new moniker.

[Sudanna]

. . . A waste of taxpayer dollars to treat a prisoner humanely?