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1st Spiderweb Game I've stopped playing due to boredom

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Originally Posted By: *i
Complaining that higher difficulty levels are too hard is a perfectly human thing to do. Look, nobody likes to admit they are not as skilled as others at things they enjoy doing whether it be sports, singing, or computer games.


dude we all know that but that's precisely why I didn't want to say it

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Maybe Jeff should add an impossible difficulty setting, in which fights are monstrously unfair from the get-go, and become literally impossible about midway through the game. Everything is immune to damage and can one hit kill you. Then everyone can either stop whining or complain even more!

 

—Alorael, who actually thinks there's something left in arcade-style incremental increases in difficulty until impossibility is reached.

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Originally Posted By: praenomagnosia
Maybe Jeff should add an impossible difficulty setting, in which fights are monstrously unfair from the get-go, and become literally impossible about midway through the game. Everything is immune to damage and can one hit kill you. Then everyone can either stop whining or complain even more!

—Alorael, who actually thinks there's something left in arcade-style incremental increases in difficulty until impossibility is reached.


This game was already made, it's called Ninja Gaiden II.

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Personally as a kid I always found stage 6-2 of the first Ninja Gaiden the most frustrating of any video game level. I don't think I beat that one until years after first reaching it. Compared to that, NGII was cake.

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what kind of fertiliser do you need to grow a ninja garden anyway

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Jeff is trying a different way of differentiating the harder difficulty fights other than just multiplying an monster's stats.


Are you sure about this? I ask, because i think the enemies have MUCH higher hit points and damage on torment compared to the other difficulties.

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They have more health and damage but I don't think it's the 4 times as much over normal. I remember instead of one shot killing monsters it only took 2 instead of 4.

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Damage and health go up, but so do other things. Many enemies get more attacks or more special attacks.

 

—Alorael, who would compare this to previous games' torment modes, in which all enemies become walls of health against which you must hurl yourself endlessly. Avadon is better about having them either kill you or die with polite dispatch.

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Honestly I didn't notice much difference in health between normal, hard, and torment. Torment might be double relative to normal, or maybe less than that. It also seems like monsters have less health in general than in recent Avernum/Geneforge games (but also more than in the first few Geneforges or Nethergate, in which everyone tended to be a glass cannon).

 

In terms of balancing health against damage, I think Jeff did a really good job in Avadon.

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It’s interesting to see the utter lack of interest some of you have in evaluating the specific complaints of people playing this game. I guess it’s easier to say you’re an idiot for playing on this difficulty level than actually understand why someone is having difficulty.

 

I offered my opinion because I’ve played the Geneforge games on torment, and I enjoyed it. The Geneforge games were challenging, and yes, sometimes aggravating. But in Geneforge there were options. If you got stuck somewhere, you could go somewhere else. There were many ways to build your characters. Oh, and I remember, when I did a torment play-through on Geneforge 5 and commented on how I didn’t use mental magic, I was flamed as well because nobody thought it was possible.

 

In Avadon, there are not as many choices. The plot is linear. If you get stuck, where do you go? I guess I just need to play exactly like Lilith and everything will be great. Maybe some of you should listen instead of being so condescending. It’s not appreciated, and it’s making me question whether or not I’ll be back in the future.

 

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Originally Posted By: Barzhal
I offered my opinion because I’ve played the Geneforge games on torment, and I enjoyed it. The Geneforge games were challenging, and yes, sometimes aggravating.

I played certain Geneforge games on torment (without mental magic) and enjoyed them. But I didn't play Avadon on torment because Jeff specifically designed torment in Avadon to be different than torment was in Geneforge. It's apples and oranges.

Dikiyoba.

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I think the point people are making is if Torment is too hard for you, and not much fun, the simple solution is not to play it. I didn't see condescension, but I'll admit that if I were frustrated with the game, I'd probably be reading people's posts with a different mindset so I do see your point of view.

 

You say that you've finished Torment runs in Geneforge, which is fine; for Geneforge. Avadon, though, is a different game, and it could be it's simply a harder game than Geneforge by design. I haven't played either in Torment (I admit that I stop having fun playing these games at any difficulty higher than normal because I don't enjoy reloading every other screen), but I have played both, and Avadon certainly felt more challenging to me.

 

For me, the question you need to ask yourself is "do I like the idea of this game enough to want to play it?" If the answer is yes, tone down the difficulty - Avadon is a cool game, and you'll probably enjoy it much more if you aren't struggling to get past certain parts. If you absolutely must play on Torment, though, there are a few guides in the strategy central thread on this board. I know you pointed out that you shouldn't have to play exactly like Lilith (just using your example, sorry L) in order to win, but the truth of it is some builds in this game are inferior to others. I guess you could call it a design flaw on the developer's part, but the fact remains. Using those guides and tips will hopefully make your game smoother, and most importantly actually enjoyable.

 

And, I guess, if you want to go things your way without using the guides (I never do, but at lower difficulties getting the right character traits and skills isn't as big a thing (which, incidentally is why I like them)), nobody is going to stop you. But, you know, complaining that the game is too hard and you're not having much fun isn't something we can directly help with. You can press on, and use advice for builds from these boards, or turn the difficulty down. Those are the only choices we can offer. It's really down to you.

 

 

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Specific complaints that you've made...where? Not on this thread, evidently. What you've said on this thread, up 'til this post, is that the game is too hard on torment. The mods may have the power to read minds over the internet, but I certainly don't.

 

To address the specific complaints, now that you've given them voice: I think your point about linearity and getting stuck is a fair one, especially on higher difficulties where one has probably already done most of the available sidequests. If I come upon a fight I just can't win, I generally turn down the difficulty, but I don't care as much about the medals as some. I'm not sure what a game designer would do about this besides making torment easier, though. Do you have ideas for a way around this problem?

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Originally Posted By: FnordCola
I'm not sure what a game designer would do about this besides making torment easier, though. Do you have ideas for a way around this problem?

How about not making medals dependent on the difficulty setting?

(Dikiyoba really likes this solution, if you couldn't already tell.)

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Originally Posted By: Barzhal
It’s interesting to see the utter lack of interest some of you have in evaluating the specific complaints of people playing this game. I guess it’s easier to say you’re an idiot for playing on this difficulty level than actually understand why someone is having difficulty.


Dude, you're being kinda thin-skinned here. Nobody is calling you an idiot, we're just saying that some of your complaints are unreasonable and not based in fact. People have beaten Avadon on Torment with solo characters of every class, so the required playstyle for being successful on Torment is obviously not as inflexible as you're making it out to be. And while the game itself is more linear than other SW games, the availability of retraining means that if you get stuck from the midgame onwards (or at any point in the game, if you're willing to use cheats) it's a simple matter to rebuild your characters to something better-suited for the encounter you're stuck on.

Look, I'm not saying you don't have any good points at all. When an option exists only to trap players (like any specialisation other than the middle column under almost all circumstances), that's a waste of design space. But given that the game is what it is, the solution to the game being too hard for you on Torment is for you to not play on Torment.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
How about not making medals dependent on the difficulty setting?

(Dikiyoba really likes this solution, if you couldn't already tell.)


I dunno. I mean, they're medals. They're there purely for bragging rights. Beating challenges on higher difficulties is something to brag about. I agree most medals shouldn't be difficulty-dependent, but I'm okay with some of them being so.

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Just to clarify, I wasn't even really addressing Barzhal directly, but more the general trend of a small line of people who, over the years, have essentially complained that a game is too difficult on the hard and torment levels. Look, I'm all for legitimate complaints, but often the essence of it boils down to that a particular section is just too hard for them. When this is the criticism, I don't find it reasonable, although I understand why it is made for the reasons I posted earlier.

 

Barzahl - I'm not calling you an idiot, and I do see your point with the medals and the game being a bit too linear in that you cannot build up your characters more. Although, as Lilith had mentioned, you have quite a bit of flexibility when it comes to tuning your builds. Likewise, at this level, I think it perfectly reasonable to modify your tactics. As for the medals, I'm on the fence as to whether or not having the one "beat the game on torment" medal is too much.

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I don't think the Torment medal makes any difference. If there is no Torment medal, people will still feel cheated that they can't beat the game on the hardest setting. And let's be honest: Avadon on Torment is hard for everyone. Understanding the game mechanics and being able to implement good battle tactics are both important, but so is being persistent. You will die many times, and reload many times, and change your strategy many times, and respec your characters many times, no matter how studied you are. Many people who are 100% capable of doing this, just don't want to, because it is a major investment of time and energy. So they don't play on Torment.

 

I will never understand it when people say "I don't like option X, therefore it should be removed." It's an option. It doesn't hurt anyone. Maybe you really mean "I think there should be option Y which is sort of like option X but different in the following ways." That would be one thing. But attacking the freedom of choice of other players? I dunno, man.

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Well, thanks for being a bit more reasonable in your responses, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough to begin with so if that's the case I apologize.

 

I guess I'm taking more of a comparative approach to Geneforge which, perhaps I shouldn't do. I'll admit, the respec feature is a great addition. But, as you highlight, the middle path seems to be the only correct path for advancement.

 

Anyways, I'm offering my input because I think I appreciate Jeff's games as much as you do. Thanks for your responses.

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House of S, can you explain how my opinion attacks your freedom? You attack me, but I still feel free to share my opinion until I get sick of you and leave (or get banned). I have thin skin?

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Originally Posted By: Lilith
I dunno. I mean, they're medals. They're there purely for bragging rights. Beating challenges on higher difficulties is something to brag about. I agree most medals shouldn't be difficulty-dependent, but I'm okay with some of them being so.

But medals also encourage people do things purely for the fact that it gives them something to brag about. And so if you make one medal that requires you to play the entire game on torment, it will encourage people to play the game on torment and refuse to turn the difficulty down even if it frustrates them to no end, so it's something that has to be taken into consideration.

(Personally, Dikiyoba is fine with the play-on-this-difficulty medals, just not the do-this-on-this-difficulty medals.)

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Originally Posted By: Barzhal
House of S, can you explain how my opinion attacks your freedom? You attack me, but I still feel free to share my opinion until I get sick of you and leave (or get banned). I have thin skin?

You're saying that torment is too hard and should be made easier or taken out. You'd be denying those masochists who want to play on that difficulty level the choice of doing so. That's loss of freedom.

As for medals, medals for winning on hard difficulties are pretty standard for bragging rights rewards. There are plenty of games that give more for it. And, personally, I don't care. I don't pay attention medals. I don't really like their existence, but they aren't intrusive and so I ignore them.

—Alorael, who doesn't think the middle path is alone. Spiderweb games have always had ways to build good characters and ways to build horrible characters. There have always been unexpected, undocumented bonuses and weaknesses. At least Avadon is (mostly) upfront about these things. And you're overlooking that Geneforge gives you flexibility in build but relatively little at any given point in the game, whereas Avadon lets you choose the characters of your party, giving you an added dimension of freedom even if each of those characters is going to come out looking fairly similar to all other characters of that class. Switching a blademaster out for a shaman makes for a very different battle.

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Originally Posted By: Barzhal
House of S, can you explain how my opinion attacks your freedom? You attack me, but I still feel free to share my opinion until I get sick of you and leave (or get banned). I have thin skin?

I wasn't talking about your opinion: I was talking about the many people who state that Torment should be changed or removed. You haven't explicitly stated this (although you may have implied it), so I don't know whether or not your opinion goes in that category. But in general, yes, I do think that saying "option X is no good for me so get rid of it" is an attack on others' freedom of choice.

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The problem i think with hard games is one thing-If you like the game, you're screwed if you cant beat it. If that is the case and you are not the only person that feels that way, then the game is imbalanced.

 

For example, I just downloaded alien shooter 2. i play the game and its alot of fun because the controls are easy to master. However, its also extremely difficult to the point where i want to cut my throat. Im at the 4th level and not only is the game tough, but there ive checked on the message boards and almost no one can get past the 4th level on medium or easy. What that means is that the game is imbalanced and the creators made it with the mindset that everyone should play on easy, which is [censored]. If someone makes a game with the mindset that easy=hard, and medium=very hard, and the rest are even worse-they should refund every customer their money. If you think about it, its essentially deceit, deception and stealing at its best. If most people cant get past a quarter of the game, how arent you a thief.

 

Some of these game makers really dont make any sense when it comes to making games. I cant begin to describe how frustrating it is when someone does that to their customers. Its f* up. Thats my 2 cents.

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Slarty, I don't think torment should be removed. I think it should be adjusted to provide more options. I don't think it should be easy. I don't think it should be hard. I just think it should be playable to those that have warmed up to Spiderweb games.

 

As far as other games go, well we're really in another ballpark. I really liked Escalon 2 (well the story was awesome until the end, but mechanics were great and difficulty was up to the player).

 

Anyways, to clarify, I don't cheat, and I never will. Thanks for the constructive input.

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Originally Posted By: Death Knight
If someone makes a game with the mindset that easy=hard, and medium=very hard, and the rest are even worse-they should refund every customer their money. If you think about it, its essentially deceit, deception and stealing at its best. If most people cant get past a quarter of the game, how arent you a thief.

Because games are intended to be challenging?

Obviously the statements quoted above don't apply to SW games, not least because there is a huge demo available before you purchase, which is the opposite of deception. But I think they are a bit histrionic even applied to games in general.

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Death Knight -- I agree mostly, although I wouldn't go as strongly as you. When the setting is stated as easy, 95+% of users had better be able to beat the game. Can't account for everyone and all, but you should account for the vast majority. Now, on the other end, when the difficulty says "Torment", that's an entirely different thing.

 

Barzahl -- Don't really agree that torment isn't playable, since we have people around here playing it and beating it. I would go so far as to say torment should not be beatable by everyone.

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Originally Posted By: Barzhal
Slarty, I don't think torment should be removed. I think it should be adjusted to provide more options. I don't think it should be easy. I don't think it should be hard. I just think it should be playable to those that have warmed up to Spiderweb games.


You don't think it should be hard.

You don't think that a difficulty called Torment should be hard.

I'm trying very hard to stay polite here, but if "Torment" isn't a strong enough warning to people to stay away if they don't want a harsh, unforgiving challenge, what should the difficulty for people who do want a difficulty that's actually hard be called?

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If Jeff added another difficulty level called Impossible that was guaranteed to kill your party, you would still have players trying it to prove Jeff wrong and those that would complain that it is impossible and should be made easier. smile

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
If Jeff added another difficulty level called Impossible that was guaranteed to kill your party, you would still have players trying it to prove Jeff wrong and those that would complain that it is impossible and should be made easier. smile


That would be an interesting April Fools joke. Offer a new version of Avadon with an "Impossible" difficulty setting. Then, the instant the player enters Avadon to meet with Miranda, they're hit with an unavoidable instakill node and die.

That way, a game with an "Impossible" setting will actually literally be impossible for once.

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Originally Posted By: Dantius
That way, a game with an "Impossible" setting will actually literally be impossible for once.


this has been done before

Quote:
The game offered three difficulty settings, which affected the number of turns the player had before "disconnection". As one of the many unique features of this game, the player could also play a customized version, configuring how long the game would last and where some of the robots would initially appear. The game also featured a unique "Impossible" setting, which lived up to its name, since the sun went nova after only a few turns, destroying the entire planet.

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... that sounds more like a parody than an actual way to end a game/plot abruptly. Like... a really Angry DM styled ending.

 

"Oh yeah!? Well... and then... THE SUN EXPLODES! 1000d12 damage to everyone! No saving throws. You all failed miserably and died. Now get out of my basement!"

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Instead of actually changing the game, Jeff should support localization, thereby just allowing us to customize the names of the difficulty levels. That way we can all tailor to suit our particular tastes.

 

So for me I would choose

Casual = Breeze through

Normal = Normal

Hard = Grinding

Torment = Suicidally difficult

 

But I guess an expert player like Randomizer's choices might hypothetically be more like

Casual = God mode

Normal = Bit of fun

Hard = Light relief

Torment = Non-trivial

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He should give all the difficulties obtuse names and put them in random order.

 

Or.clo#e = Medium

Surplice = Torment

K44 = Easy

whustli = Hard

 

That way even the difficulties can be difficult.

 

—Alorael, who also advocates having them randomly shift. After the first section, say, the difficulties assigned to each term rotate one term down. Or all shift randomly.

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Originally Posted By: Barzhal
Slarty, I don't think torment should be removed. I think it should be adjusted to provide more options. I don't think it should be easy. I don't think it should be hard.

So you think that, even if there are four different difficulty settings, NONE of them should be hard. This is what I'm saying about removing freedom of choice for other players. Why can't players who WANT the game to be hard, have one or two difficulty settings to accommodate them?

I could say "Easy should not be easy" and it would be just as ridiculous.

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I think hard should be hard

 

I think torment should torment the player

 

Torment for Avadon is unplayable

 

We’ve been here before, but …well here we are again

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It's clear my opinion isn't welcome. I can accept that. Not a big deal since the upcoming release is a remake of a remake. It's a shame, there was a lot of potential here.

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Originally Posted By: Barzhal
Torment for Avadon is unplayable


You keep saying this, but people have in fact played through the entirety of Avadon on Torment, even with additional self-imposed challenges like solo character runs. Yes, some people are going to find it unplayably difficult: that just shows there's a range of player skill and tolerance for difficulty, which is why different difficulty levels exist in the first place. Not every difficulty level is going to be right for every player. Torment may be unplayable for you, but you're not Spiderweb's only customer.

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Barzahl -- No one said your opinion isn't welcome. We just all happen to disagree with it. I agree that we're rehashing the same argument. You say torment is unplayable, many people are able to play it just fine with difficulty. Not sure how we can progress here other than to all agree to disagree.

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I disagree that people have enjoyed and beaten the game on Torment, despite evidence to the contrary. I will continue to argue about it anyway.

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It's more fun on torment except for fighting Redbeard. smile

 

I've done it 4 times and 3 were singletons. It was fun trying what shouldn't be possible.

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I have a feeling that wouldn't work too well. Nathalie would end up a whole lot less useful. You could pump her dexterity, but it wouldn't be as fun.

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Originally Posted By: *i
Death Knight -- I agree mostly, although I wouldn't go as strongly as you. When the setting is stated as easy, 95+% of users had better be able to beat the game. Can't account for everyone and all, but you should account for the vast majority. Now, on the other end, when the difficulty says "Torment", that's an entirely different thing.

Barzahl -- Don't really agree that torment isn't playable, since we have people around here playing it and beating it. I would go so far as to say torment should not be beatable by everyone.



The only reason i say that is because of this-I played and beat geneforge 1 on easy. I played half way through the game on normal until i couldnt go any further. I beat the game, though it was difficult. Spiderweb Software does make hard games, but they are not unplayable and can be beaten. All of this has to go with what is good for you, the player. People say that avadon is mostly easy, I find it to be hard while i find the exile and avernum originals more comprehendable. Because i am more accustomed to the old school games, i have more patience for them and thus more ideas to think of. Geneforge is fairly in the same boat, but keep in mind this is just me.

What I dont like is Sigma-Teams games (Alien Shooter) being extremely difficult to the point where most people give up and dont get past them at level 4 of 15 (20% of game). Out of all the reviews i read on them, all reviewers agreed that most people wont get past easy or medium difficulties, and the chances on ANYONE getting past hard or very hard difficulties is more likely to be impossible. That, in my opinion, is when difficulty is too misleading.

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With all due respect, this isn't a case of differing opinions. This is an issue of objective fact.

 

Torment is not unplayable; many people have played it through just fine.

 

Barzahl (by the way, did you spell the name differently on purpose?), maybe "unplayable" is just not the word you mean to use? Is what you're trying to say, that you think every player should be able to complete a game on every difficulty setting, even the hardest ones?

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Quote:
What I dont like is Sigma-Teams games (Alien Shooter) being extremely difficult to the point where most people give up and dont get past them at level 4 of 15 (20% of game).


Agreed. I think most games should be playable, and beatable, by most people. I don't consider excessive difficulty that prevents people from finishing games to be substantially better than game-breaking bugs that prevent people from finishing games. I make an exception for games like I Want To Be The Guy that are advertised as unusually difficult: one knows what one is getting into with those. Nevertheless, I think there is and should be an expectation that games be basically playable and winnable. This is why I like games with adjustable difficulties; of course, this breaks down with games like the one you mention, that are too hard even on their easiest difficulty levels, or too easy at their hardest (q.v. Planesape: Torment, or the original Fallout if one knows how to build-optimize).

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Originally Posted By: FnordCola
This is why I like games with adjustable difficulties; of course, this breaks down with games like the one you mention, that are too hard even on their easiest difficulty levels, or too easy at their hardest (q.v. Planesape: Torment, or the original Fallout if one knows how to build-optimize).


planescape: torment isn't actually a game, it's an interactive novel with an irritating combat minigame that occasionally pops up to waste your time

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It's a game. It's actually a very good game. It's just much more of a point and click adventure than a traditional RPG, and it shows. But that's a design flaw; it could have been made without the RPG trappings, or it could have been made with decent combat to go with all the other good stuff.

 

—Alorael, who didn't really find Planescape combat horrifying. It's not exciting, but except for the very beginning it's mostly so trivial that you can ignore it in favor of the game. It's not intrusive because it takes little time or effort to get through it.

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Originally Posted By: Micawber
Instead of actually changing the game, Jeff should support localization, thereby just allowing us to customize the names of the difficulty levels. That way we can all tailor to suit our particular tastes.

So for me I would choose
Casual = Breeze through
Normal = Normal
Hard = Grinding
Torment = Suicidally difficult

But I guess an expert player like Randomizer's choices might hypothetically be more like
Casual = God mode
Normal = Bit of fun
Hard = Light relief
Torment = Non-trivial

my favorite name for Torment is in Wolfenstein. there it is called "I AM DEATH INCARNATE"

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It's not about difficulty. Don't confuse the issue.

 

I've not finished the game, but I agree that there is too much work and not enough 'furk'. It gets pretty tedious.

 

The game is very big and very well made. In fact, it's tremendous. It deserves more recognition than it's going to get. I would ask for shorter place names (3 syllables max, please, and average 1.5 syllables). Make them easy to pronounce too, or I can't keep them straight late at night. In the sequel, use short nicknames names like 'Kell' in place of Kella-what-ever-it-is. Also, please tell me who someone is when you start talking about them, like this: 'the arch-alchemist Insane-o-bat' instead of just 'Insane-o-bat'. The names are too long, too many, and hard to pronounce.

 

I have some difficulty relating to the characters. It's a bit too dramatic. Nathelie was traumatized for life when I didn't let her kill the dragon for laughs. I like bludgeoning Chuckles the Silly Pixie better.

 

Aside from that, it's very good and the bugs are few and benign.

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Hi blackwight!

 

It's considered bad form to revive a thread that's been dead for a long time - in this case, over a year. The original poster has moved on, and everyone else is finished with this discussion. Feel free to share your thoughts in a new topic.

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