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Do You Get Bullied?


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I bullied my younger brother. It's not something I did maliciously, it's just the way things are. My older brother verbally abused me, if you can count that as bullying.

 

I never got bullied in school. I'm sure people made fun of me behind my back, but I was never attacked or humiliated.

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I answered that I've never been bullied, but in all honesty I probably have and just didn't think much of it. Moreover, I don't consider myself a bully, but the way I discourage annoying people from hanging out with my group of friends at school could potentially be called bullying, too.

 

Bullying is such a vague term, anyway. What is it? Even stuff like physical abuse can be hard to nail down - what's the boundary between beating on someone and friendly rough housing? Verbal abuse seems like it would be even more relativistic in its definition.

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Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Consent seems like the obvious starting point. It's rough housing if all the kids involved agree they're playing. It's bullying when kids are getting pushed around when they don't want to be.

Dikiyoba.


What if the intent is to just play, and consent is assumed, though? Especially in a situation where the kids involved intentionally rough housed, earlier, but for some reason one of them no longer wants to play.

Obviously, the point at which that kid vocalizes that sentiment, and the activity continues, it is bullying. But is it bullying before that, as well?
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Well, think about it. With what other common activity is consent a key factor in determining whether or not a crime has been committed?

 

If you're going to start punching/kicking/pushing, you'd better know there's consent beforehand. Chances are, if you're not close friends, it's bullying.

 

As for the poll, I wasn't quite sure how to answer it. I'm not bullied now. I received verbal and physical abuse during elementary. It petered out to mostly verbal abuse during junior high. I suppose that by the time senior high rolled around, I had learned enough avoidance and coping techniques, because things didn't seem to bad then. No one went out of their way to hurt me any more.

 

Anyway, more than "a couple times", so I went with the next option.

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Originally Posted By: Goldenking
Obviously, the point at which that kid vocalizes that sentiment, and the activity continues, it is bullying. But is it bullying before that, as well?


My elementary school principal would say yes. Another thing that my principal taught me is that no matter who started it, if you are the one that drew blood, you get punished.
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In eleventh grade I ended up going to a new school and starting a few months later than everyone else. I got all sorts of rumours spread about me that were harmless enough at first, if confusing(a lot of people seemed to think I was from France), but escalated into less friendly ones about drug use and other extracurricular activities. There was one assignment in my computer class to make a brochure taking one side of a controversial topic and since I had no intention of purchasing Publisher, I stayed after school to work on it. A group of some of the people who were worst came into the classroom, surrounded me, and started calling me things along the lines of babykiller. The teacher, who was sitting 3 feet away, didn't even look up. My mum took me out the school after that.

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Originally Posted By: Rowen
It wasn't that I was a mean person but if I didn't want to play with you I would punch you. I blame having older brothers.


Having an older brother, and being an older brother means that I agree with this. Whole-heartedly. I still give my youngest brother a hard time, but he's old enough to bite back, and besides, it isn't really bullying. He's 18 and yeah, Christ, I'm old. It's more teasing and remembering being younger. frown

I never got picked on at school either. I was lucky; I was smart, but also good at sports. And that meant I could hang out with the geeky people, and the athleticy people. It was pretty lucky for me.
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It's amazing how bullying has sifted after the advent of anonymity over he Internet and social newtowking. Not to sound old, but when I went to school, the kids that were bullied were the smaller, weaker ones, and they were oppressed by the bigger kids- physical force was more-or-less the sole factor in bullying. Now, with cyberbullying, it's not only equalizing the oppressors and the oppressed, but even reversing the trend- it's now the smaller, weaker kids abusing the larger ones, and everybody now seems to be so concerned over this! The amount of anti-bulling rhetoric has increased exponentially as I've gotten older, to the point where I wonder if this reversal of roles has caused it.

 

Of course, I may simply be becoming more aware of such issues as I got older- elementary school students don't tend to pay much attention to state legislatures!

 

 

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Bullying used to be more tolerated as part of growing up. If you read the juvenile literature from before World War II it was considered a fact of life. Some examples are Rudyard Kipling's Stalky and Company and Owen Johnson's The Lawrenceville Stories and Stover at Yale.

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My sense from the news is that bullying has changed and the outcomes have gotten worse. Once upon a time you could get beaten up on the playground or walking home from school, but at home you were at home. Getting bruised and bloodied leaves obvious wounds by definition, and there are obvious persecutors and victims. The bullies weren't always caught and punished, but they were caught and punished.

 

Now a fair amount of bullying is online gossip campaigns, and more people have no attackers to face down, really. There's no recourse. Suicide is more common. Are kids less tough? Is the psychological bullying harsher? Does the anonymity and arbitrariness make children just give up?

 

—Alorael, who cannot think of any time that he has been bullied. That's surprising to him, and probably against all odds.

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Originally Posted By: A paradigm, I tell you!
I still give my youngest brother a hard time, but he's old enough to bite back, and besides, it isn't really bullying. He's 18 and yeah, Christ, I'm old. It's more teasing and remembering being younger. frown


I'm the youngest in the family. Age difference between me and the next oldest brother is 7 years and the oldest is 9 years. I'm was the shortest and smallest in my family and still am. The last time I horse played with my oldest brother I was 17 and knocked him out cold in front of my mom with a well placed palm slap.

Turns out the the amount of force that I need to fend off my brothers when I got older was much less then I needed when I was little. When I was little I had to kick them to knock them out. I'm afraid of what that would do to them now that I'm over 20.
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I don't get bullied that often, but when I do it's in school. If it's outside of school, I usually jam my little fist in their littler face. If they manage to block it, I'd kick 'em right where the sun don't shine. Luckily, this only happened once. (FACT: It happened twice) And even though it was outside of school (FACT: it was across the street), I still got suspended. (FACT: uh. . . nevermind.)

Originally Posted By: Alorael
That's surprising to him, and probably against all odds.
Not really, I wouldn't bully someone that carries a gun everywhere with him.
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Originally Posted By: And man grew proudly
Now a fair amount of bullying is online gossip campaigns, and more people have no attackers to face down, really. There's no recourse. Suicide is more common. Are kids less tough? Is the psychological bullying harsher? Does the anonymity and arbitrariness make children just give up?



Have I mentioned that the Internet is a perfect example of how when people lack a common power to keep all in awe, they immediately resort to doing whatever they like with no care for others? It's war of all against all in such a textbook format that it's almost like it was planned that way to vindicate Hobbes from the outset.
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It would make a very nice childhood-excuse story if bullying drove me to my secluded life of sniping, but it's simply untrue. I went unbullied long before I was memetically armed.

 

—Alorael, who can't even claim that the bullies were all on foot, encouraging his vendetta against pedestrians. And they weren't opposed to long-running gimmicks, so he can't use that as a justification either.

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Originally Posted By: Dantius
Originally Posted By: And man grew proudly
Now a fair amount of bullying is online gossip campaigns, and more people have no attackers to face down, really. There's no recourse. Suicide is more common. Are kids less tough? Is the psychological bullying harsher? Does the anonymity and arbitrariness make children just give up?



Have I mentioned that the Internet is a perfect example of how when people lack a common power to keep all in awe, they immediately resort to doing whatever they like with no care for others? It's war of all against all in such a textbook format that it's almost like it was planned that way to vindicate Hobbes from the outset.

Look, just because you immediately decided the rules don't apply on the Internet doesn't mean we all did.

The closest thing to cyberbullying Dikiyoba saw in high school was from a parent, rather than a student. Whether the kids taught the parent or whether the parent went on to teach the kids is anyone's guess.
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For years while in school I was bullied and made fun of. My family was dirt poor and I was (and still am) ugly. When I was in school I was smaller than the other boys and they would gang up on me. While at school, I was 5'6" and 155 lbs. Now I'm 5'11" and 215 lbs. I'm not as easily pushed around as before. I don't like bullies and would never do that to someone else. But if someone gets in my face and wants a fight, I'll make sure they pay.

 

Post #598 cool

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I don't have any distinct memories of being bullied, just thinking that a few people were donkeys for not following the rules, particularly during gym class. This is probably lucky since I tend to be quite conscientious and probably would have taken bullying very hard. I just feel fortunate not to be a girl since pre-teen and teenage girls can be very mean to each other.

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Originally Posted By: Dantius
Now, with cyberbullying, it's not only equalizing the oppressors and the oppressed, but even reversing the trend- it's now the smaller, weaker kids abusing the larger ones, and everybody now seems to be so concerned over this!

Um, no, this is totally not the case. There were a number of serious bullying incidents at the school I taught at last year, and I'm talking about the mainstream middle school classes here. Generally, these incidents combined old-fashioned bullying with cyber-bullying. I've seen the threats and insults on Facebook and MySpace. Worse, I've seen Facebook Event invitations for a fight the next day, which is then provoked by third parties who videotape both the harassment and the fight with their phones and send it straight to YouTube. The police come, the videos are removed, there are some consequences, but not remotely serious enough ones, in my opinion.

Really, you're deluding yourself if you think that text messages and social networks allow the smaller and less socially fluent kids to get the upper hand. Texting and social networking does not replace the actual social networks of a community, it only extends them. The same sorts of kids who used to get picked on are still getting picked on: the kids who are different; the ones who are weak, of the wrong ethnicity, Muslims, gays, the kids who get A's, the ones who don't drink, who don't walk with a swagger -- and sometimes the ones who do, too.
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Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S
Really, you're deluding yourself if you think that text messages and social networks allow the smaller and less socially fluent kids to get the upper hand. Texting and social networking does not replace the actual social networks of a community, it only extends them. The same sorts of kids who used to get picked on are still getting picked on: the kids who are different; the ones who are weak, of the wrong ethnicity, Muslims, gays, the kids who get A's, the ones who don't drink, who don't walk with a swagger -- and sometimes the ones who do, too.


That so? I haven't actually had close contact with a school environment like you would have, and the minimal exposure I have with high-school students tends to be with the socially fluent ones, so I'm really going on hearsay and the occasional news story when a kid commits suicide.

Now that I think about, the latter source would be exceptionally susceptible to sensationalism bias. "Antisocial introvert commits suicide after decade of abuse" probably wouldn't grab nearly as much attention as "Attractive cheerleader [photoshopped picture] kills self after e-bullying", so those cases wouldn't get reported. I'll have to check into this more and look up some statistics.
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You're definitely right about the media coverage. I don't think there's been a huge upswing in bullying in recent years, but the involvement of texting/facebook has given the mainstream media a way to turn bullying cases into human interest stories.

 

The real problem with our attempts to address bullying is that they don't address the core problems. Bullying itself is not the disease; it is the (painful and negative) symptom of a deeper problem. In other words, dealing with bullying is good, but if you don't deal with the deeper societal problems -- I'm thinking here mainly of poverty and of our culture of disrespect -- bullying will continue to be spontaneously generated.

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I was bullied quite a lot throughout highschool. Public schools are brutal. However, i will note what worked for me-I would usually deal with it for 4 months, then finally i would threaten to murder the kid's family when it got too far. After that, no one messed with me. Once you realize that mostly all people that act tough are cowards, things get easier for the most part. And in case they tell you to behave, pacifism doesnt work. Standing up for yourself does. Dont get punished because society's laws are fake.

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I was bullied and beaten up many times in middle school and high school. As someone with Asperger Syndrome, I did not fit in socially at all. Couple that with the fact that I was very intelligent and arrogant, and you have a recipe for someone whom everyone likes to pick on and for whom no one cares to intervene.

 

I don't really have a good choice to pick on that poll though. I'm 25 now and have developed many social skills since then. Also, adults do bully each other, but it is less common.

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I wouldn't say I was bullied, but the 'popular' kids did pick on me a bit. I did my best to make it unfun for them as in I ignored their taunts.

 

I remember one time in middle school when they decided to play a trick on me. One popular guy started being nice to me; picking up my books when I dropped them, saying hi and whatnot. Two weeks later when I had made no move to upset the status quo a couple of the girls started telling me that he liked me and wanted me to ask him out. I told them 'yea right' they said 'no really'. In my head I'm thinking 'Why doesn't he just ask me then?' I finally got tired of them bugging me about it and asked him if he wanted to go skating. Course he said no, and they all said it was a joke. I rolled my eyes and went back to ignoring their taunts. I think they were hoping for something more dramatic.

 

That was as bad as it ever got. The only time I got in trouble for fighting, it was ironically with a friend. She called me a name, I called her a worse one, she pushed me when I was off balance and I fell. A teacher saw it and gave us both detention. We passed notes back and forth during the whole thing. What a laugh.

 

As for cyberbullying... I miss TM. frown

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Oy, I should never leave this site for a few days again. So many posts to catch up on... even if most of them are new Steam people asking questions that can be answered with either the tech support or FAQ page.

 

Anyway, I don't think I've been really bullied outside of my family. And is it really bullying when it's your older siblings/cousins? I'm a good member of the nerd archetype, and I always make a point of telling people that I've never been beat up, or even harassed much at all. Of course, there are a few people that tried to, and occasionally succeed in, making my life miserable.

 

I remember once in maybe the second grade my best friend and I decided to pick on a kid just so see what it was like. It was a rather unpleasant experience, and I'm glad it was never repeated.

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From what I've seen, schools are hierarchical, which each rung of the hierarchy giving crap to those beneath them.

 

Originally Posted By: "Tyranicus"

Also, adults do bully each other, but it is less common.

 

I disagree. If anything, bullying is just as common, but more subtle. Adults have the guile to tear down those beneath them in more insidious ways. I've lost count of the number of times work colleagues have tarnished the reputation of other colleagues (behind their back of course).

 

Just as an afterthought, I resent the mentality instilled in children these days, that they need to run to authority to prevent bullying. If a child is relentlessly bullied, this is more a reflection on their character, rather than that of the bullies. If their character flaws are not address, then bullying will continue to occur throughout their schooling, and continue well into their adult life.

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Originally Posted By: Brocktree
Just as an afterthought, I resent the mentality instilled in children these days, that they need to run to authority to prevent bullying.
I find that a swift kick to the nards is a much more effective than "telling". Lets see here, we have not walking straight for a week compared to...one detention after school?
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Yes, Slarty pretty much hits the nail on the head.

 

Every kid gets bullied at some time during high school. This is the hierarchy's way of feeling them out, to see if they are deficient. Only a few kids are bullied relentlessly, and they usually cop flak from a lot of people. So the common denominator here isn't the bully, but the individual being bullied.

 

Even if authority punishes the bullies and somehow gets them to stop through threats of retribution, this doesn't change the fact that the victim had some sort of character flaw that made them an appealing target. They will simply be bullied by others. This will continue throughout their school life, and continue on into their work life. If a kid can't stand up to his own peers, then how the hell will he stand up to his employer, who will likely have far more power and influence than him? What's he going to do with the authorities themselves trample on his rights? Cry?

 

Today school's set kids up for failure. If a child is relentlessly bullied, then *they* need self-esteem classes, and training in tactics on how to socialise and assert themselves. Empower children so that they can fight bullies, instead of merely perpetuating the victimhood mentality. Targeting the bully is simply treating the symptom, not the cause.

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Often, Person A will be a designated bullying target because an alpha-bully picked Person A and everyone else goes along with it. Yes, it's usually because A is different somehow, but that somehow can be being foreign, or more interested in academics, or small, just goody-looking. How do you fix those things?

 

—Alorael, who is willing to resent children's willingness to run to authority for every problem instead of dealing with anything themselves. However, for a lot of bullying he thinks the opposite is the problem. There is no authority that can act, and there is no way to teach a kid to not be a victim of mob mentality. All you can do is try to stop the mobs from forming.

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What Alorael said.

 

Like Slarty, I don't completely disagree with you, though some of your terms are rather strong ('deficient', 'character flaw'). A lot of the time bullying starts because of one 'flaw' of the victim, and this 'flaw' is exacerbated as a result of the bullying. Stuttering is a classic example.

 

The chief characteristic bullies look for in victims is the incapability of fighting back effectively (this is almost by definition). And as above, this characteristic only worsens as bullying continues. Even if you get the hypothetical "swift kick to the nards" in, you still have to face the bully the next day, and the next, and so on (and that's assuming you're one-on-one, which is hardly ever the case). Complaining to the teachers never gives a permanent solution, and often causes repercussions. Avoiding the bully often works, but sometimes you'll get some who seek you out. So now you've got a case where you're 'punished', regardless of whatever action you take. As is to be expected, a condition of learned helplessness sets in.

 

Again, I agree with you that we need to deal with the victims of bullying properly. But we still need to effectively deal with the bullies as well. Empowering the victims is well and good, but that doesn't stop bullying from being a harmful activity that is wrong, if not illegal.

 

Which segues into the one point that I completely disagree with. You seem to imply that bullying in school prepares you for the environment you'll experience in 'real life'. First, in my personal experience, this is not the case at all. I've never been abused, verbally or physically, by employers, or coworkers, or friends I've made since high school. Have there been disagreements, arguments? Of course; big ones, sometimes. But the characteristics of the typical school environment -- the rigid social hierarchy, the atmosphere of constant verbal combat, the culture of disrespect -- have all been absent.

 

Is my experience atypical? Quite possibly; I feel I have been rather blessed. I know that there are bullying employers, manipulative friends, abusive relationships. But a key option when you find yourself in an abusive environment is to remove yourself from it. And this option can never be discovered in a school environment, because that choice simply isn't available. You can give up, or fight if you're lucky, but you can never walk away.

 

 

 

To those who recommend retaliation, especially Death Knight's suggestion of making death threats: Really? Putting aside the risk of repercussions from the bullies, doing something like making death threats will only make things worse if the school authorities ever get involved. Especially in a post-Columbine world, educators have been far too willing to view victims as potential time-bombs instead.

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Originally Posted By: Preprandial Beliefs
Often, Person A will be a designated bullying target because an alpha-bully picked Person A and everyone else goes along with it. Yes, it's usually because A is different somehow, but that somehow can be being foreign, or more interested in academics, or small, just goody-looking. How do you fix those things?


They don't need to be fixed, because they are rarely (if ever) the core problem. I've known clever, small, goody-looking and foreign kids who were *not* routinely bullied. Indeed, some were bullies themselves.

Quote:

However, for a lot of bullying he thinks the opposite is the problem. There is no authority that can act, and there is no way to teach a kid to not be a victim of mob mentality. All you can do is try to stop the mobs from forming.


The best way to stop yourself from being bullied by a mob is to not make yourself a target in the first place. Victims need to take agency over themselves, and stop behaving like victims. For authority to intervene and handle the situation is simply reinforcing the notion that the victim is powerless to alter their own situation. Instilling a loser mentality in children produces adults who are losers.

I speak from personal experience. During my first year of high school, I was the target of extensive bullying and harassment. I wrote to the coordinator, and they took me out of one form, and placed me in another. Do you think that solved problem? Of course not! I was still bullied in the new form, I was ostracised outside of class, and I was harassed on the bus home. It was only in my later years, when I took agency over myself that things started to improve. If you assert your rights, carry yourself with dignity, and have a sense of worth, then others will be obliged to respect you. You don't even have to fight. Most animals in the wild can drive off bullies with a good bluff.

Unfortunately, children aren't taught this. They are taught to be weak. To run to authority. To give in. To become powerless. To think less of themselves. To be a sheep. Public schools are raising a generation of losers, weaklings and morons, and the parents aren't helping much either. I guess this is a good thing, since society needs masses of losers and drones in order to function smoothly.
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Originally Posted By: Cairo Jim
I dunno if it's just my little corner of the world, but it seems that a lot more people get into more trouble for defending themselves, as minor as it usually is, than the actual perpertrator that was causing all the harm in the first place.

Columbine ruined everything.
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Originally Posted By: Tyranicus
I was bullied and beaten up many times in middle school and high school. As someone with Asperger Syndrome, I did not fit in socially at all. Couple that with the fact that I was very intelligent and arrogant, and you have a recipe for someone whom everyone likes to pick on and for whom no one cares to intervene.

I don't really have a good choice to pick on that poll though. I'm 25 now and have developed many social skills since then. Also, adults do bully each other, but it is less common.

As someone else with Asperger Syndrome--albeit not as strongly as others--I had a very similar experience, though my arrogance stopped--mostly, because I'm still arrogant to a much smaller extent, though I am aware of it and work to moderate it--once I turned fourteen or so and I suddenly began understanding how I was hurting others with my senseless words and complete lack of understanding of the word "discretion."

Once in high school I was still bullied, albeit never beat up, since I went to such a small school in the mountains instead of an urban school, but I actually made friends by not being a dick to everyone I met.

Since I finished public school many years ago, I haven't really been bullied all that much. I mean, the occasional bit of cyberbullying, but since I don't use Facebook or other social networks and don't participate on that many forums, I'm mostly just alone instead.
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Originally Posted By: Lilith
Originally Posted By: Brocktree
Look harder. Society exists because of bullying.


tell me more about your sociological theories


If you went and smoked a joint in broad daylight, law enforcement agencies would be well within their rights to arrest you. Attempts to resist would be met with threats of (or actual) violence. It is also the norm for police officers to coerce a confession out of a suspect.

The State exists because it monopolises the legitimate use of force. It then regularly utilises this force (or the threat of force) against individuals to keep order. Justified or not, the use of coercion by a strong individual against a weak individual in order to obtain compliance is the very definition of bullying.

This is but one example. Countries bully other countries through embargoes, invasions and occupations. Employers bully employees, and unions bully employers. I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point. Coercion is common in the 'real world', and knowing how to deal with it intelligently while retaining your self-esteem is something that should be taught in school.
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