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A:EftP - Things I'd love to see a return.


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Originally Posted By: Mystic
Just remember, in order to drive something out of your mind, something else has to be driven in! tongue Enjoy, and don't say I didn't warn you! wink


WHY? I think i have gone insane. Well thats karma for you. Shoulda never brought my sanity in, and I should have left it at the door.
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Slightly off topic and maybe Jeff will throw stones on me for suggesting, but:

 

When I think about spells and which game in the past had the greatest spell engine ever, I always just have one answer: dungeon master.

 

Spells worked in a completely different way there: You had to combine several symbols/hieroglyphs to cast a spell. If I remember correctly, it was like that:

The first symbol defined to power of the spell, from very weak (but easy to cast and not consuming much of your mana) to ultimately strong (but difficult to cast if you didn't have enough experience, and taking quite a lot of your mana).

The second symbol defined the base element (like fire, water, air...). Some spells just required the base element: For example the fire symbol created a magical torch.

The more complex spells required a third and some even a fourth symbol. So the fire symbol with the ray symbol would create a fireball, while the fire symbol with the shield symbol would create some kind of fire shield.

 

So you could find very powerful spells by just trying the combinations or by discovering spell scrolls during the game. Theoretically one could cast very powerful spells on a very weak level pretty much at the beginning of the game, but with gained experience you could cast stronger and more devastating versions of the spell later on.

 

I remember having a sheet of paper next to my computer where I wrote down all the combinations that I found. Oh, and there were wonderful spells like "see through walls" or "show my footprints so I won't explore the same corner twice".

 

I'd love to see something like that back again.

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Hm, well "see through walls" was called "Far Sight" and I too hope that comes back - it was kind of a necessity for the first trilogy. But only if the old kind of secret door comes back.

 

As for the rest, it sounds very interesting, but Jeff seems to be moving in the direction of streamlining spells and skills. It's wildly unlikely that he would choose to switch to such a complicated system, even if A:EFTP were not already in the beta phase.

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Well, I don't think we will ever see something like that in one of Jeff's games. It would also break the whole character development system. Shamans, priests, wizards – they all would use the same spell system, and a shaman could evolve into a priest or a warrior into a wizard.

And at least Avadon shows a complete different direction: no multi-class character, no switching between classes. You have to stick to what you were at the beginning. :-(

 

But nevertheless, it would be cool.

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Eh, Avernum has a global and spell system, and in all honestly I prefer it. I like to give my warriors that little edge, or my spellcasters so massive a toolbox. While Avadon's fine and good in its system, the freedom of Avernum is my choice.

 

The primary problem I see with a system that allows you to mix and match spell effects (aside from the time it would take to make and balance) is it might be tricky to keep a sense of progression.

 

It would probably have to keep things restricted to how many spells and spell variants a person can have/make at a given time, and gate the effectiveness. Maybe it would even be best off without such a wide open system as Oblivion, and more of a structured formula that tightly controlled what the results were, rather than a floating numbers in relation to effects as they're added.

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My objection to a system like Dungeon Master's is that it simply rewarded spending a very long time trying out random spells on walls. And then it rewarded keeping notes. I enjoy Dungeon Master a lot, but that would grate on modern RPG sensibilities, and it would strain the quick spell system.

 

—Alorael, who could see something interesting coming out of being able to define the parameters of spells in advance. Would you exchange limited range on your bolts of fire for more damage? It might be worth shrinking an area of effect to add a debuff to it sometimes. If those could be reconfigured out of combat but had to be kept in combat it would add a little more interesting choice to spells. But, of course, it would be tough to balance.

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Originally Posted By: Struggling Little Flies
My objection to a system like Dungeon Master's is that it simply rewarded spending a very long time trying out random spells on walls. And then it rewarded keeping notes.


Well, it's like studying magic ;-) So it would add some realism, like the food aspect in avernum.

Honestly, if someone wants to spend three days to find out all combinations (leave alone that they will be available online within hours after the release) - let him do it. I played avernum 3, avernum 6 and avadon, and there were cheats available in each of them. So I don't think Jeff has any problems with spell lists on the web. Maybe you could stop people from discovering all spells at once with a trick: The caster have to find the more advanced symbols first in-game before they can use them.

I also don't think it would break any balance: You could limit the amount of spells one can cast during a battle by the amount of mana used by each spell. So one could cast 5 low level spells or 2 high level spells and his mana is gone (so he would have to rest, use mana potions, touch the pylon or whatever).

And you can keep people from using strong spells by having high "failure rates" for spell casters with low experience. They might even suffer from "side effects" when spells fail dramatically: the caster might get injured, or some equipment might get damaged.

But while it's nice to dream about it, it's kind of waste of time: We all know that this will never make it into the next game. It's a pity though...
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Originally Posted By: tmsidrschnapper
Well, it's like studying magic ;-) So it would add some realism, like the food aspect in avernum.


The problem is that Jeff has made the business decision that "realism", if it make the games needlessly complicated and difficult for new players to adapt to, has to go. So while it may be nice for experienced players, Jeff can make a lot (and I mean a lot, Avadon probably has brought in a couple hundred k by now by my Fermi estimate) more money for himself.

So if you, when designing a game, were given the choice between "satisfying the tiny audience of hardcore RPG fans with complex and arcane mechanics and characters" and "making an easily accessible and fun game for the masses", where picking the latter choice netted you tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars more in profit, it's pretty clear that you would pick the latter one, and that's exactly what Jeff did.
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You know what I'd like to see return? It seems like a little thing, but it really bugs me: Seated positions for the character sprites. I'm probably not going to get this, I know, but I miss it from BoA. It was such a nice touch to see characters actually sitting in their chairs instead of standing in front of them.

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Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno
Hundreds of thousands of dollars? You sure?


It's a Fermi estimate. We only have data for G4. His price point then was $28, and when he posted, he had sold around 4000 copies, plus some hint books, so at that time he had pulled in around $120,000, which was incidentally the price to make the game. With some extra customers factored in from the releases of G5, A5, and A6, we'll say that he's increased his customer base, or converted pirates, or whatever, so he now sells 5000 units. At $25, the initial price for Avadon (IIRC? Was it 20?), he sells, say, 5k copies for a total profit of $125,000. Then factor in Apple store purchase, presume he gets 70% of $10, so that's $7. I figured that the purchases are largely independent, so that, with a few exceptions, people aren't going to buy it from Jeff and steam, so if another 5-6K people buy it on the MAS, that's around $40,000. Now there's Steam. The price on Steam was $10, so if they take a 50% cut, which is very high, and sell around 10,000 copies, which I think is quite feasible, then that's another $50,000 for Jeff. Sum those up and you get somewhere in excess of $200,000, minus the, oh, $150,000 it took to make it, and that means that less than a year after release, Jeff's already in the black, whereas for G4, which he stated was an "average" seller, he was still in the hole (just barely) a year after release, and so the amount of money made by Avadon was quite a shocking jump from prior games, maybe even to he tune of six figures.
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Those are some questionable assumptions, but it's a Fermi estimate.

 

In particular, I'm skeptical about a 25% jump in number of customers from G4 to Avadon (I'd actually guess that loss and gain of customers balance out), of 5,000 sales from the App store. Steam probably sells much better. 10,000? Maybe. What you left out is the iPad sales, which are a truly new market, selling something very rare on that platform, and that might bring in another 5,000 customers.

 

What I think isn't at all in question is that the game did well in new marketplaces, and it did very well even at lower prices. Well enough that Jeff got his answer about doubling his customers by halving the price, and the answer was a resounding yes.

 

—Alorael, who also suspects that Jeff got some additional cash from new customers looking up this "Spiderweb" and registering a few more things. Even if most didn't, more money out of old work is good news, and just 1000 new sales spread over all other games is roughly 25% of a new game in itself.

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Let's not forget that the majority of these "total cost" numbers goes to paying the 3 Spiderweb employees. So "breaking even" might mean no profit from a business perspective, but it also means that the employees are getting paid their salary; and since any additional income mostly becomes bonus income for some number of those employees. It's not like somebody spent $2000 on materials and made $2000 back from sales, and thus had nothing to show for their work. Of course I think it's great SW is doing well, but it's not like "breaking even" was a bad state for them.

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What are the costs of an entirely in-house game developer? A computer and programming software (CodeWarrior, once upon a time). Freelance graphics and one bit of music per game. A website with solid hosting. Everything else is salary.

 

In fact, it's not entirely clear how Jeff could plow earnings back into his company. Fancier graphics? Probably. Music? Conceivable, but Jeff has expressed antipathy. Anything more than that would require hiring more people and losing that "beholden to no one" deal that Jeff seems to enjoy.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't even think the salary is really meaningful. The majority of it goes to one household, and it's not like they can demand better pay. Linda Strout might get a salary, but even she might be paid by percentage. If they don't make enough, Spiderweb dies, but as long as their making a living they're breaking even, more happily or less.

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At the same time, the better each individual game Jeff puts out does, the more leeway he has to try the more involved things like setting up a system where a character can "build" their own spells.

 

Maybe something in the far flung future, the next series, or perhaps later in the Avadon series, he could make that a major draw, but for the Avernum/exile remake, I guess I'd prefer (and far, far more realistically foresee) he'd spend the extra time and money on pumping up the basics and what we all know works.

 

Yes, it would be nice to take a Fireball spell and convert it into something that instead inflicts poison in the same radius, or whatever other variants we can think of for something of this nature, but so radical a concept is just a fun dream to have in all likelihood.

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The latter.

 

I wouldn't mind some of Exile's sound effects returning. I never found anything wrong with them to begin with myself. I am glad, however, that he threw out some of the ambient sounds used in early Geneforge and Avernum... I've said it before, the sound of that screaming, babbling servile made me go full on Obeyer. >>;

 

Then again, I'm not an audio engineer, or whatever official sounding title would make my opinion on the matter mean more than just "some guy".

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Originally Posted By: Necris Omega
I am glad, however, that he threw out some of the ambient sounds used in early Geneforge and Avernum...
I don't remember the ambient sounds being different, but a couple of the Avernum 1 sound effects were jarringly loud compared to the rest of the game. The sound effect whenever you started an outdoor encounter, for example. If I recall correctly, the sound effect for entering a town was also different.
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Regarding monster hordes, I somewhat fondly remember attacking the Empire Guard pass points in E2 and fooling around with the huge amount of Guards that would spawn.

In memory they were around 30-40 at each point.

With each Guard having around 200 hit points, which was an awful lot in Exile. I would cast Mass Charm, and watch the massacre. Took an awful lot of time too.

I think I ended one such with quickfire.

(I realize these don't actually count as random encounters, but no matter.)

 

I don't think the player was really meant to be able to get through these by fighting, not before the point they had served their plot purpose anyway.

 

Either way, I think Jeff bungled the Imperial hierarchy somewhat from Exile to Avernum.

Avernum was overall a lot easier than Exile (Or did I just get wiser?) and most of the Imperial soldiers seemd much much tougher. Imperial Archers would cause massive damage, Blademasters were real badasses, and Dervishes were immensely tough. In my memory Angierach was nightmarishly difficult in E2, but not so much in A2.

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I think over all, the most difficult is the empire archer. Anyone dissagree? They seem to like to travel in packs, and concentrate on one person. They get two strikes in per turn and each one on average gets like, twenty to thirty points out of you each. They kill one of me at a time before I wipe them out, and thats why I kill them first. The Wizard is the next strongest, seeing as they are immune to everything except for poison.

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Well I'd say that the archer is not dangerous at all, since (assuming you cast bless party at the start of every fight like a sane person would) they will never damage your party in anyway... I'd be far more worried about the wizards who can cast firestorm and actually hurt you...

 

So basically I DISAGREE that the archer is the most dangerous. Happy now?

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Empire Archers would be the most dangerous E3 enemy if bless was not hopelessly broken. Sad truth is, even for low level parties, there is an effective defense in the form of that priest spell. Same cannot be said of magic users, however, where no comparable defense really exists.

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Major Blessing is an endgame spell. Your priests have an assortment of blessings from the moment you wander out into the courtyard of Fort Emergence.

 

—Alorael, who still thinks Empire Archers are on the dangerous side for physical enemies. They're just the best of a largely underwhelming bunch.

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Huh. Well, you're at least unlikely to be able to cast it at the very beginning of the game. You won't have seven levels of mage spells for at least a few more levels.

 

—Alorael, who obviously didn't understand optimization and exploration when he played. He remembers pulling out Major Blessing no earlier than golems.

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Originally Posted By: Tatters and Tears
Huh. Well, you're at least unlikely to be able to cast it at the very beginning of the game. You won't have seven levels of mage spells for at least a few more levels.


Unless you're optimising for maximal spell points, in which case starting with very high spell levels makes sense.

The blessing from Major Blessing is significantly weaker than the one from Bless Party, though, so it's worthwhile to use both.
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