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devilkingx

two steps back(an avadon game review)

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TL;DR at the bottom folks!

 

this game in a way is much worse than jeffs other games

 

in this completely objective review i shall compare avadon to geneforge because ive played that extensively but i never could get into avernum because of mechanics i didnt like

 

things i liked(so that people dont think that i 100% hate the game, its only 99.98%)

 

- improved graphics geneforge 5/avernum 6 quality or maybe even above i like them

 

- graphics that represent the game, when they said that red dragon wasnt that big they meant that he wasnt that big unlike how in geneforge 1 they say that one drayk you meet was like 20 feet long yet the sprite was barely bigger than the PC this goes for later ones too

 

- SKILL TREES! because it makes no sense to cast spell of ultimate doom III without learning spell of regular doom I first

 

- actual story progression, in every geneforge game except 3(which sucked in most other regards but not this one) there was little story progression the game played more like a sandbox with stats(which was still awesomesauce extraordinaire) enter G3 ruining almost everything great about the series but ateast it actually bothered to imply you were doing something other than exploring until you stumble upon something you care about

 

- demons, they're awesome but they werent in any geneforge but G2 and then they were mysteriously removed, probably to quell the "magic and demons in video games is the equivalent of devil worshiping and satanism in real life" crowd but whatever the reason its nice to see them back in the series, they are mythology staples

 

- different cultures and customs and such, it made no sense in geneforge how all of terrestria was basically the same i mean i know the shapers conquered the place, but most COUNTRIES are all ruled by their government but kansas looks different from florida which is a start contrast to chicago which pails in comparison to new york etc. its nice to see that the many lands of avadon atleast acted different

 

- leveling chekhov's gunman(if you dont know, things that are useless upon acquiring but become useful later are refered to by TV tropes as chekov's for some reason EX: chekhov's skill, chekhov's gun, etc.) avadon avoids the final fantasy style "this character is useless as hell now but when you inevitably leave them low level and weak because of not using them you'll be screwed when we force you later" problem by leveling those you do not use for you

 

- decent leveling scaling, leveling in geneforge becomes near impossible because at some point not even the strongest of the strong monsters can give you enough EXP to level reliably unless you run around "dbugkill"ing entire areas for EXP grinding purposes, i remember getting 40 EXP for killing an unbound in G5, one of the hardest beasts of teh game and it cant even give decent EXP like 400 or something? but in this game leveling is actually possible without heavy grinding or gaining a free level 2 secs from the end of the game because of what you do with the geneforge

 

- junk bag, the junk bag alone has to be the single greatest thing in this game, FIANLLY! no more clogging all my glorious inventory space with useless crap i'll never bother to use

 

 

and now for the incredibly large amount of bad

 

- SKILL TREEES!!!!!!!!!, I HATE THE SKILL TREES OF THIS GAME SOOOO MUCH!!! every single damn skill worked out like this, to get skill C you need both A and B but A is the only skill that relates to C of the two and A is the only good skill of the two, but find i have a skill point to spare- WHAT THE HELL DO YOU MEAN I CAN ONLY RAISE SKILL C TO THE LEVEL OF THE LOWER OF A AND B? its retarded, its like saying you need to master karate to learn kendo or you need to be able to grill sasuges and brew beer before you can fry burgers

 

- geneforge 3's avadon's tedious boat system teleporters, why do i need to run back to goldcrag then touch the pylon then run across avadon then touch another pylon to go to khemeria? thats so tedious, in G4-5 you just go to a map and run across it then you can fast travel the rest of your journey as long as you've been there before but it isnt nearly as bad as

 

- characters and plot, why is it that all the hands but you are either dead or twiddling their thumbs until your beckoned call for a mission? why cant your 4 allies take you out on missions? why do you always have to go? why is it that convieniantly all other hands are either busy, dead or incompetent? the only one that makes sense is the dragon one because he asks for you by name because of your competence, and whats with that leader guy of khemeria? why is he not the least bit concerned that his most trusted wizzard was really an evil psycho mastermind that almost got him and the rest of khemeria screwed by avadon? and whats with the personal quests? what is this dragon age? if ima have to go risk my ass because nathalie is retarded and wants to get herself killed by a big scary dragon then i should atleast be able to bang romance her

 

- SKILLS, every last one of them sucks, the CD's are a million and 1 turns long without that cheat code, and all of the skills for the blademaster are "hit really hard and have a status effect" or the other type of skill he shares with everybody else "hit real soft but be of actual use" beserker leap and that thing the ninja guy has that attacks everything around him in a circle would be useful if not for the crappy damage

 

- SCARABS the only useful one i found in my travels was the one that allowed for teleporting, too bad that this isnt X-men legends 2 where when you get a skill you can actually use it to its logic limits(there are places you can only go by teleporting, and some places that require either teleporting or flying) teleporting was almost useless because you could only go places you could walk(making it useless outside of battle) and it was useless in battle unless you had more than 7/8 AP's worth of walking space directly in front of you and then it gets stricken with a like 15 turn cooldown

 

- the big kahuna LINEARITY the game was so linear its not even funny, you cant go anywhere unless someone explicitly tells you somewhere, because your character apparantly isnt intelligent enough to explore places and go somewhere himself, it really killed exploration for me, because i didnt feel like going back(TEDIOUSLY! as mentioned above)

 

- yet somehow i still didnt know what to do, i remember that mission where you need to make the 2 kingdoms get along and clear out the contested woods, holkanda and that other place nathalie is from i think, anyway you've gotta clear out the woods with 4 soldiers and the kings right hand dude, they bicker like 5 year olds(reminded me of me when i was younger, and evidently reminded me of me now) you go down and the soldiers get themselves owned by the the huge ass dragon, when you kill them all you'd expect something to happen right? something saying "quest completed" or some kind of story progression or something right? wrong, the only way you know that your done is you eventually thinking that you should leave and go talk to that other guy, who ran off(the coward) then you must take it upon yourself to check with that king if your done, AND THEN YOUR DONE you think they could've had a character go "we're done here lets go back?" or maybe i dont know put "quest complete" in the quest log, OR SOMETHING!?!?

 

- stark contrast of G1, in geneforge 1 there were WAAAAAY too many living tools there were just so damn many that i had to frequently sell some by the end of the game to keep from being encumbered constantly, i had to sell over 60 living tools in that game, but maybe thats because i screwed up and my guardian had like 15 or 17 mechanics and 15 or 17 leadership, BUT I RATHER THAT THAN NOT BEING ABLE TO FIND ANY!!! what the hell? why were there so little lockpicks or maybe they were just ultra hard to find, regardless you'd need a wizard(nathalie) and a ninja(that awesome guy who's clan got decimated) in your party to maximize your efficiency, even with the guide i had a whole lot of trouble finding any lockpicks in this game, probably because they look like a generic useless item like a paperclip rather than the quite unique purple hands that i found in living tools

 

- why wasnt the chat log on by default? seriously, i turned it on by accident, it should've been on, the only downside is the chatlog spam if you do something wrong repeatedly but even that is worth dealing with for the benefits

 

in the end avadon is a terrible game with good/decent trends/concepts mixed in with crappy tinkering of great mechanics, i know that this isnt geneforge and so he had to change things, mechanics, names, concepts, etc. but why was/were most if not all changes for the worse?

 

3/10 5 or 6/10 its possibly the worst spidereweb game(making it worse than G3, making it a acheivement, no a bad achievement, like a downcheivement) that ive played(which means excluding all of them except the geneforge series, because i didnt even get past the tutorial in avernum because the graphics of the first 3, and UI turned me off and then the movement graphics of all 7 of them)

 

TL;DR avadon is a terrible game with some good stuff, but in 99% of ways a step down from geneforge and presumably a step down from avernum 3/10 5 or 6/10

 

EDIT: added junk bag praise

 

EDIT 2: increased rating, i gave G3 a 6 or 7(no i havent posted a review.... yet) so ive gotta give this a more fair score

 

EDIT 3: changed the made up trope name i had(chekhov's character) and replaced it with the proper name

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A lot of your criticism is pretty reasonable. I'd disagree with a few details (some skills are very useful, and some of the scarabs are even better). But mostly I agree with you -- I'm just not sure how those complaints got you all the way down to 3/10. I guess this comes down to a matter of preference. Different people may care more about different elements of a CRPG, and have very different deal-breakers.

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The reason you found Berserk Leap and Steel Tornado to be so disappointing is that despite the fact that they're described as melee skills, their damage is based off Dexterity, not Strength. If you pump Dex, they're actually pretty powerful. Of course, the arbitrary way in which different skills depend on different stats is kind of a design flaw in itself.

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Originally Posted By: devilkingx
whats with that leader guy of khemeria? why is he not the least bit concerned that his most trusted wizzard was really an evil psycho mastermind that almost got him and the rest of khemeria screwed by avadon?

What do you mean "almost"? Your final quest in Khemeria is to kill him and any of his followers who refuse to get out of your way. (Also, he totally knew all along that his wizard was evil but didn't care.)

Dikiyoba.

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Originally Posted By: Lilith
The reason you found Berserk Leap and Steel Tornado to be so disappointing is that despite the fact that they're described as melee skills, their damage is based off Dexterity, not Strength. If you pump Dex, they're actually pretty powerful. Of course, the arbitrary way in which different skills depend on different stats is kind of a design flaw in itself.


REALLY? i actually just pumped STR, on my BM and my ninja guy* and i pumped INT on nathalie and that witch doctor shaman chick, you'd think they'd warn you beforehand, maybe thats an addition for avadon 2

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
A lot of your criticism is pretty reasonable. I'd disagree with a few details (some skills are very useful, and some of the scarabs are even better). But mostly I agree with you -- I'm just not sure how those complaints got you all the way down to 3/10. I guess this comes down to a matter of preference. Different people may care more about different elements of a CRPG, and have very different deal-breakers.


what details would you disagree wih? and es m being a bit too unfair with the rating, but maybe im bitter because of the reason i rage quitted this game

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Originally Posted By: devilkingx
whats with that leader guy of khemeria? why is he not the least bit concerned that his most trusted wizzard was really an evil psycho mastermind that almost got him and the rest of khemeria screwed by avadon?

What do you mean "almost"? Your final quest in Khemeria is to kill him and any of his followers who refuse to get out of your way. (Also, he totally knew all along that his wizard was evil but didn't care.)

Dikiyoba.


well i kind of rage quitted at the "slay the wizard" quest any knowledge of anything that happened afterwards is because of spoilers i got from lurking the forums, i got the jist of killing the khemerian leader guy but not full details

i rage quitted because i died in the final battle with the wizard(why did nothing mention that only magic damage could hurt him when he donned the invinci shield permanently? and how does it make sense that a magic user is only vulnerable to magic, BUT NOT SWORDS?) then because of how autosave works(and because i forgot to save) i would either have to redo the entire mission, or just the part with the wizard's tower(the last autosave was in the city and not the woods nor the tower)

but the rest of the review was my genuine frustration with the entire game

*i havent played since i rage quitted which was around a week ago so i have bad memory of the names of stuff

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As I said, some skills are very useful (most middle column skills, the archery AoE attack, summons, group heal, group battle rage, ninja teleport), and some of the scarabs are fantastically good -- all of the attack & healing ability scarabs are STUPENDOUS when put on a character with the right stats.

 

Based on your last post it seems like one of your big complaints is that the game doesn't tell you things ahead of time -- about how stats work, about enemy vulnerabilities, etc. I agree that some of this would have been nice, but many players also enjoy finding this stuff out on their own.

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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
As I said, some skills are very useful (most middle column skills, the archery AoE attack, summons, group heal, group battle rage, ninja teleport), and some of the scarabs are fantastically good -- all of the attack & healing ability scarabs are STUPENDOUS when put on a character with the right stats.

Based on your last post it seems like one of your big complaints is that the game doesn't tell you things ahead of time -- about how stats work, about enemy vulnerabilities, etc. I agree that some of this would have been nice, but many players also enjoy finding this stuff out on their own.


most middle column skills sucked, i find that the left column is usually the best, except for teh ninja and the witch doctor

archery and summons and heal and teleport were awesome i do agree

but i still think they should atleast warn or give some hint of what to do, rather than "figure it out for your damn self" it doesnt have to give a 20 step guide, but atleast a "he's put up a shield to make him invulnerable to physical damage, we'll have to use something else"

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Originally Posted By: devilkingx
most middle column skills sucked, i find that the left column is usually the best, except for teh ninja and the witch doctor


Can you elaborate on why you found this to be the case? The consensus on these forums is that the middle column is the most useful one for almost all character builds, since maxing it out can give you things like a 40% bonus on the damage of every single attack you do, or a similar bonus to all resistances.

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Quote:
but i still think they should atleast warn or give some hint of what to do, rather than "figure it out for your damn self" it doesnt have to give a 20 step guide, but atleast a "he's put up a shield to make him invulnerable to physical damage, we'll have to use something else"



Well, there is a bit of a hint:

Click to reveal..
Quote:
Moritz'Kri calls out, "Beloch, I command you. Give me shielding from beyond!"
Beloch looks at you and shrugs, as if to say, "What can you do?" Then he pokes at the membrane that holds him out of your world. Imps start to appear in a circle around you. As each appears, a faint shield of energy appears around the wizard.


Then the names of the imps (steelward, fireward, etc.) tell you what kind of shields he has active at any given moment.

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Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves
Quote:
but i still think they should atleast warn or give some hint of what to do, rather than "figure it out for your damn self" it doesnt have to give a 20 step guide, but atleast a "he's put up a shield to make him invulnerable to physical damage, we'll have to use something else"



Well, there is a bit of a hint:

Click to reveal..
Quote:
Moritz'Kri calls out, "Beloch, I command you. Give me shielding from beyond!"
Beloch looks at you and shrugs, as if to say, "What can you do?" Then he pokes at the membrane that holds him out of your world. Imps start to appear in a circle around you. As each appears, a faint shield of energy appears around the wizard.


Then the names of the imps (steelward, fireward, etc.) tell you what kind of shields he has active at any given moment.


i knew the spoiler, but i didnt know that the imp name had to do with the shield..... that seems kind of arbitrary, the name makes sense when you think about it, but your not going to see the name and make the connection because most people wont notice that steel stops working when the steelwards arrive, or that magic works because i was using nathalie to murder the imps while me and my ninja sidekick were kicking the wizards ass

Originally Posted By: Lilith
Originally Posted By: devilkingx
most middle column skills sucked, i find that the left column is usually the best, except for teh ninja and the witch doctor


Can you elaborate on why you found this to be the case? The consensus on these forums is that the middle column is the most useful one for almost all character builds, since maxing it out can give you things like a 40% bonus on the damage of every single attack you do, or a similar bonus to all resistances.


because the left column had all the skills i deemed important enough to remember, while the middle was just passives, although i do remember the damage increase and the health increase, but i can remember many more skills that i used from the left

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Originally Posted By: devilkingx
but i didnt know that the imp name had to do with the shield..... that seems kind of arbitrary, the name makes sense when you think about it, but your not going to see the name and make the connection because most people wont notice that steel stops working when the steelwards arrive

How much more obvious do you want it to be? Especially since Geneforge already used terms like "steelward" and "fireward" to indicate creature immunities, so it shouldn't have been a totally foreign concept to you.

Dikiyoba actually really liked Avadon the first two playthroughs and then got bored after attempting a third playthrough. It's an improvement over other recent SW games, but not one of Jeff's best.

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One thing that threw me was that the Steelward Imps grant immunity to physical damage, but are themselves immune to everything but physical damage. I can see how this setup makes sense from a game design perspective, though, and I got how it worked after the first couple of failed attacks.

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It seems to me that some of your likes and dislikes contradict each other. You like the skill trees and dislike them at the same time. Also, you like the story progression but dislike the linear plot. I think that asking for a non-linear plot with the same amount of story progression is pretty, well, naïve. Having the huge, open plots of, say, G1 while wanting the story development of Avadon seems impossible.

 

You also like that the leveling doesn't stall out near the endgame. This is because the game has a much lower level limit than do previous games. Defeating Avadon without reaching the highest levels is nearly impossible, while previous games were beatable far below the level cap.

 

Lastly, your complaint about the behavior of companions and other hands would be remedied had you played the full game. The reason why you have them and why you're sent on these particular quests instead of joining the fight with the other hands is explained upon your final return to Avadon.

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Originally Posted By: Master1
It seems to me that some of your likes and dislikes contradict each other. You like the skill trees and dislike them at the same time.
He likes the existence of the skill trees, but doesn't like things about how they are put together.

Quote:
Also, you like the story progression but dislike the linear plot. I think that asking for a non-linear plot with the same amount of story progression is pretty, well, naïve. Having the huge, open plots of, say, G1 while wanting the story development of Avadon seems impossible.

Except that G1 had at least as much story development as Avadon. It was a bit less linear, and it took longer to get to, but it was there.

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Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Originally Posted By: devilkingx
but i didnt know that the imp name had to do with the shield..... that seems kind of arbitrary, the name makes sense when you think about it, but your not going to see the name and make the connection because most people wont notice that steel stops working when the steelwards arrive

How much more obvious do you want it to be? Especially since Geneforge already used terms like "steelward" and "fireward" to indicate creature immunities, so it shouldn't have been a totally foreign concept to you.

Dikiyoba actually really liked Avadon the first two playthroughs and then got bored after attempting a third playthrough. It's an improvement over other recent SW games, but not one of Jeff's best.


when were they in geneforge? i dont remember that?


the only game i can think of that avadon was even considerable for improving on is the avernum series(because i havent played them so i cant comment on their quality) and G3(because it sucks) but even thats debatable

Originally Posted By: Lilith
One thing that threw me was that the Steelward Imps grant immunity to physical damage, but are themselves immune to everything but physical damage. I can see how this setup makes sense from a game design perspective, though, and I got how it worked after the first couple of failed attacks.


i can see how thats confusing, to people(wait, so steelwards are only weak to swords.... yet they make the boss only immune to swords..... the hell?) i cant see how that makes sense from a game design persective, because whatever steelward means it cant satisfy immunity and weakness to steel at the same time meaning 1 of the 2 makes no sense

Originally Posted By: Master1
It seems to me that some of your likes and dislikes contradict each other. You like the skill trees and dislike them at the same time. Also, you like the story progression but dislike the linear plot. I think that asking for a non-linear plot with the same amount of story progression is pretty, well, naïve. Having the huge, open plots of, say, G1 while wanting the story development of Avadon seems impossible.

You also like that the leveling doesn't stall out near the endgame. This is because the game has a much lower level limit than do previous games. Defeating Avadon without reaching the highest levels is nearly impossible, while previous games were beatable far below the level cap.

Lastly, your complaint about the behavior of companions and other hands would be remedied had you played the full game. The reason why you have them and why you're sent on these particular quests instead of joining the fight with the other hands is explained upon your final return to Avadon.


i liked that they added skill trees, but i hate how they were pulled off

i liked that the game seems like it has a point, but its even worse than G3 with the linearity(you cant go anywhere until the plot says you can, which kills exploration because honestly, when you can finally go somewhere, you probably wont want to go there anymore, you'll lose intrest waiting for the game to tell you that you are allowed to go there(AGAIN as if your char cant figure things on his own) atleast G3 allowed you to explore the entire island as you pleased its just that new islands come as the plot allows you to go there)

and it makes sense that slaying redbeard would be hard, he's like the optional final boss, like geneforged trajkov in G1 or yiazmat in FFXII or that gazer in lermans pass in G5 hes supposed to be rediculously impossible

and can you explain the reason to me?(in spoiler tags if you wish) i dont really want to have to replay that travasty

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Originally Posted By: devilkingx
and can you explain the reason to me?(in spoiler tags if you wish) i dont really want to have to replay that travasty


Click to reveal..
Heart Miranda is a traitor against Avadon and Redbeard. So, she specifically assigned other Hands who have wavering loyalty, for various reasons, to you so that they would hopefully sway you into treason.

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Originally Posted By: Goldenking
Originally Posted By: devilkingx
and can you explain the reason to me?(in spoiler tags if you wish) i dont really want to have to replay that travasty


Click to reveal..
Heart Miranda is a traitor against Avadon and Redbeard. So, she specifically assigned other Hands who have wavering loyalty, for various reasons, to you so that they would hopefully sway you into treason.


thank you, that was quite.... informative, shocking, mind blowing, whatever you want to call it

she's the person i'd least suspect...

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I'm guessing you never went into the lower dungeons and found the interesting, um, reading material down there, either, then.

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Originally Posted By: devilkingx
i can see how thats confusing, to people(wait, so steelwards are only weak to swords.... yet they make the boss only immune to swords..... the hell?) i cant see how that makes sense from a game design persective, because whatever steelward means it cant satisfy immunity and weakness to steel at the same time meaning 1 of the 2 makes no sense

Maybe the imps are ordinarily immune to everything but project one of their immunities to Moritz'Kri, leaving the imps vulnerable to that type of damage.

Quote:
she's the person i'd least suspect...

Not if you find the book in the dungeon that reveals she was originally engaged to a Hand who wanted to assassinate Redbeard...

Dikiyoba.

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Originally Posted By: devilkingx
i can see how thats confusing, to people(wait, so steelwards are only weak to swords.... yet they make the boss only immune to swords..... the hell?) i cant see how that makes sense from a game design persective, because whatever steelward means it cant satisfy immunity and weakness to steel at the same time meaning 1 of the 2 makes no sense


Well, it means that if your entire party is set up to do only physical damage, you're not completely stuck.

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And from a magical perspective, think of it as a highly protected imp that can pass part of its protections on. If it's granting something else immunity, it has to give up that immunity itself. Think that makes no sense? Magic doesn't have to.

 

—Alorael, who will go ahead and defend Avadon's linear world. Yes, he'd like some open exploration too, but he doesn't think the plot as written would work well if you weren't forced to deal with areas one at a time, in order, and then return to old areas with different plot sections in the middle. Could there be free exploration as well? Yes, but not for the main plot, or it would not work as well.

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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
Quote:
Also, you like the story progression but dislike the linear plot. I think that asking for a non-linear plot with the same amount of story progression is pretty, well, naïve. Having the huge, open plots of, say, G1 while wanting the story development of Avadon seems impossible.

Except that G1 had at least as much story development as Avadon. It was a bit less linear, and it took longer to get to, but it was there.


not really..... there was no sense that you had something to be doing, it felt like you were exploring an island(mainly because every single story development happens in the last 2-3 hours) you find the boat, meet trajkov, get to goettsch, find the history of the shapers, help/kill trajkov and/or goettsch and then escape on the boat all around the same time, there are plenty of games with free roam and a story that progresses(oblivion and morrowind for AAA examples) its just that none of jeff's games except G3 did that

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba


Dikiyoba actually really liked Avadon the first two playthroughs and then got bored after attempting a third playthrough. It's an improvement over other recent SW games, but not one of Jeff's best.


let me reply to this again because i just realised something

THIRD PLAYTHROUGH?!?!?! are you a madman? do you not know how jeff's games work? it takes you a few days to beat it the first time, and all subsequent times only take a few hours atmost if you do it right(i.e save after meeting trajkov and goettsch in G1, so you can just reload and help/kill 1 or the other or both to get your ending easily) except for G3 because you have to choose on the third island instead of waiting til the last area for ending experimentation


although there is the chance that you replayed it, not for the endings but for a different game experience, but i didnt like any class in Geneforge except guardian so i wouldnt know


Originally Posted By: Simmering Ephemera
And from a magical perspective, think of it as a highly protected imp that can pass part of its protections on. If it's granting something else immunity, it has to give up that immunity itself. Think that makes no sense? Magic doesn't have to.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Originally Posted By: devilkingx
i can see how thats confusing, to people(wait, so steelwards are only weak to swords.... yet they make the boss only immune to swords..... the hell?) i cant see how that makes sense from a game design persective, because whatever steelward means it cant satisfy immunity and weakness to steel at the same time meaning 1 of the 2 makes no sense

Maybe the imps are ordinarily immune to everything but project one of their immunities to Moritz'Kri, leaving the imps vulnerable to that type of damage.


i never would have thought of that, you people are geniuses

Originally Posted By: Simmering Ephemera
—Alorael, who will go ahead and defend Avadon's linear world. Yes, he'd like some open exploration too, but he doesn't think the plot as written would work well if you weren't forced to deal with areas one at a time, in order, and then return to old areas with different plot sections in the middle. Could there be free exploration as well? Yes, but not for the main plot, or it would not work as well.


what about the geneforge games? surely 3 is the perfect example of having a story driven plot but still having free exploration(on each island, you must progress the plot to unlock each island though, thats the system they could do with avadon, you can go anywhere in the kva, but you cant unlock khemeria until you finish the kva, etc. and areas like the wizards tower(as it plot specific areas that have no use that isnt plot related) can just be locked until you go there for plot reasons, like the tower was when you originally see it)


Originally Posted By: Lilith
Originally Posted By: devilkingx
i can see how thats confusing, to people(wait, so steelwards are only weak to swords.... yet they make the boss only immune to swords..... the hell?) i cant see how that makes sense from a game design persective, because whatever steelward means it cant satisfy immunity and weakness to steel at the same time meaning 1 of the 2 makes no sense



Well, it means that if your entire party is set up to do only physical damage, you're not completely stuck.


yes, but if your* that stupid completely intelligent this is either your* first RPG or your* a vegetable on life support small child

its like RPG 101, having an entire party of people who do the same type of damage is a recipe for disaster(unless your* party was specialized for a specific fight)

* i use "your" as if to say "the person doing this, as if i am talking to them and not to you" just putting this disclaimer to avoid offending anyone's honor/disgracing their family forcing us to have a duel to settle the dispute


Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
I'm guessing you never went into the lower dungeons and found the interesting, um, reading material down there, either, then.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Quote:
she's the person i'd least suspect...

Not if you find the book in the dungeon that reveals she was originally engaged to a Hand who wanted to assassinate Redbeard...

Dikiyoba.


remember how i said that its annoying that you cant go somewhere until you can go there for plot reasons and how it annoys me? well i didnt really feel like going back into the dungeon that i cleared out after i left, not even for that find and free the prisoner side quest, i didnt really feel like it

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Takes a few days to beat it the first time?

 

I've had it for two weeks and I'm still not anywhere finding the shadowbeast after it ran off the second time...

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Originally Posted By: Txgangsta
Click to reveal..
NE on a third section of the map.
Thanks, I'll try that even though I'm skeptical...I mean maybe the roundabout random way I've attempted the quests (I've a pile of half finished dead ends) is messing up the beast's appearance...

EDIT:

Nope, the woods aerea to the NE is inaccessable, and when I manage to open a tempremental trapdoor (a random game annoyance needs fixing) to get me to the northern maze, hedges block the way on the east side of that section.

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Originally Posted By: devilkingx-
why wasnt the chat log on by default? seriously, i turned it on by accident, it should've been on, the only downside is the chatlog spam if you do something wrong repeatedly but even that is worth dealing with for the benefits


I've been playing for weeks and had no idea there was a chatlog. How do I turn it on?

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Ah, found a trapdoor that leads to an unexplored cavern of rainbow lizards to the east of the maze...hmm...aha! it leads directly under the river to the right bank...

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The maximum level the game will let you achieve. Avadon has a level cap at level 30.

 

Dikiyoba.

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Originally Posted By: radiojonty
Originally Posted By: Txgangsta
Never, ever do level caps again. I hate level caps. A lot.
What's a level cap?


In Avadon, you can no longer level up once you reach level 30. Without a level cap, you can always level up, eventually making an extremely powerful character, though this takes a lot of time, as the amount of experience needed to level up will increase, or in SWS games, you will earn less xp the higher your level is. Without a level cap, the developer has to balance the game to fit the average level someone would reach by each area, which can take a lot of time. With Avadon's level cap, it is not difficult or very time consuming to reach the cap, so it is generally less time consuming for the players and developer to reach a suitable level to complete the game.

Personally, I do NOT like level caps. Games should have an enjoyable combat system, so it wouldn't be bothersome for a player to train their character(s), and it gives room for less-skilled players to become strong enough for what is to come, no matter how bad they are, and I just enjoy being able to always make my character stronger. However, it would be difficult for Jeff to devote the time to balance the game without one, so I wont complain.

Edit: Sniper no sniping!

Edit again:
To add to the topic, I think I agree that Avadon felt a little disappointing. Graphics will never make up for smaller play time, and the small play time made the linearity feel more linear. Don't get me wrong, the game was long enough and it was great fun, well worth the price despite its linearity, but speaking from a strictly relative view, I am disappointed.
The point I don't see was that your are the 'only' Hand doing anything. "why is it that convieniantly all other hands are either busy, dead or incompetent?" Jeff addresses this element with Hand Barne, discussing a mission he was on with the player, but it wouldn't hurt to add a few hands that they player couldn't talk to (getting ready for a mission) and possibly have some of them disappear as the game progresses. I never got to rest and so it makes since that the other hands are always busy as well. The player only goes to three distinct locations, and there's obviously many more for the other hands. Other than that, I agree with the other points, such as the skill tree. I don't like having to spend points on skills I don't use for the ones I want. All the lower tier ones should be passive skills that are always useful.

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Originally Posted By: Txgangsta
Never, ever do level caps again. I hate level caps. A lot.


this isnt demon's souls, most games cant accomplish a really high level cap, because you need more/harder combat and traps and such for higher levels, so unless you want each game to take 5 years or want level scaling dont complain

Originally Posted By: Wasteland Knight
Originally Posted By: devilkingx-
why wasnt the chat log on by default? seriously, i turned it on by accident, it should've been on, the only downside is the chatlog spam if you do something wrong repeatedly but even that is worth dealing with for the benefits


I've been playing for weeks and had no idea there was a chatlog. How do I turn it on?


press T i accidentally pressed it and the log turned on

you are proof that this game is way too secretive

Originally Posted By: radiojonty
Takes a few days to beat it the first time?

I've had it for two weeks and I'm still not anywhere finding the shadowbeast after it ran off the second time...


well i got further than you in 1-3 days before i rage quitted, so.... i guess you could buy the hint book, or you could describe the map your on because thats important, and me or someone else could halp

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
I feel like Hobbes after listening to that. The tiger, that is.

*blinks*


what?

Originally Posted By: Mod.
Originally Posted By: radiojonty
Originally Posted By: Txgangsta
Never, ever do level caps again. I hate level caps. A lot.
What's a level cap?


In Avadon, you can no longer level up once you reach level 30. Without a level cap, you can always level up, eventually making an extremely powerful character, though this takes a lot of time, as the amount of experience needed to level up will increase, or in SWS games, you will earn less xp the higher your level is. Without a level cap, the developer has to balance the game to fit the average level someone would reach by each area, which can take a lot of time. With Avadon's level cap, it is not difficult or very time consuming to reach the cap, so it is generally less time consuming for the players and developer to reach a suitable level to complete the game.
without a cap it would eventually become impossible to level because even the strongest monsters would eventually give you 0 EXP either that or he'll need to scale/rework the system/add ALOT more monsters at higher levels

Personally, I do NOT like level caps. Games should have an enjoyable combat system, so it wouldn't be bothersome for a player to train their character(s), and it gives room for less-skilled players to become strong enough for what is to come, no matter how bad they are, and I just enjoy being able to always make my character stronger. However, it would be difficult for Jeff to devote the time to balance the game without one, so I wont complain.
i can think of no game other than MMORPG's that you cant obliterate everything at level cap in


Edit: Sniper no sniping!

Edit again:
To add to the topic, I think I agree that Avadon felt a little disappointing. Graphics will never make up for smaller play time, and the small play time made the linearity feel more linear. Don't get me wrong, the game was long enough and it was great fun, well worth the price despite its linearity, but speaking from a strictly relative view, I am disappointed.
the problem with the game wasnt graphics related, case and point A5 A6 A4 G5 G4, the only thing that shows your point is this and G3(which was probably first to use the enhanced graphics)
The point I don't see was that your are the 'only' Hand doing anything. "why is it that convieniantly all other hands are either busy, dead or incompetent?" Jeff addresses this element with Hand Barne, discussing a mission he was on with the player, but it wouldn't hurt to add a few hands that they player couldn't talk to (getting ready for a mission) and possibly have some of them disappear as the game progresses. I never got to rest and so it makes since that the other hands are always busy as well. The player only goes to three distinct locations, and there's obviously many more for the other hands. Other than that, I agree with the other points, such as the skill tree. I don't like having to spend points on skills I don't use for the ones I want. All the lower tier ones should be passive skills that are always useful.

i disagree on the all lower skills being passive part, but i agree it should change, and what i meant was that your character ALWAYS was on a mission, as if your the only one there to do ANYTHING, because you always have something to do immediately, yet no one else is out doing anything but you(how many named hands do you hear about on missions? NOT your companions and not generic "hands" but actual names as we all know, people without names are unimportant

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Although im a big and immense fan of non-linear games, i bought avadon 3 weeks ago to give it a shot with a hopes it will support possibly my favorite game company (alongside soldak which is #2). By the time, last weekend was around, i couldnt play anymore of it. It was probably because of most of what the original poster was talking about. It was way too linear for me. The big killer though was probably the skill tree like he said. When i play a skill tree like that, it reminds me of a worse version skill tree than diablo 2.

 

Either way, I still dont think it deserves worse than a 6/10. I still love spiderweb's games and am in the process of trying new older games. I will try avadon 2, but will probably not buy it as it is just not my thing.

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I enjoyed Avadon more than most Spiderweb games, though I can see where some people might not have.

 

For one thing, I actually prefer short and non-repetitive games. Avadon and Geneforge 1 are the only Spiderweb games I finished, and of course it's satisfying to get there.

 

Level caps: don't care so long as it is not hit too early. In my case I was into the endgame when it hit, so no problem there.

 

Skill trees: I did find it a little annoying that you have to pump up both lower skills to 6 if you want to get a succeeding skill to 6. As for the middle column, I didn't go overboard with it and I still could complete the game on hard. Nobody makes you minmax to death doing things you don't enjoy.

 

Linearity... most non-linearity in CRPGs is a bit fake anyway, so I don't really mind. You could still choose which quests to do and which to skip etc.

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I loved the skill tree (and really loved how the best items increased the skill tree stuff!), however I really disliked the lack of stat customization that is so prevalent in geneforge and avernum (avernum had way more though, it ended up being my favorite too). There are only 4 stats to put anything in, and on any character, only 2 are really useful (primary weapon stat and endurance). I'd like to have more to choose from in customizing characters. However, I realize that Jeff has moved into the iPad, so things like that might not be possible.

 

"this isnt demon's souls, most games cant accomplish a really high level cap, because you need more/harder combat and traps and such for higher levels, so unless you want each game to take 5 years or want level scaling dont complain."

 

I want level scaling. Specifically, I like Jeff's style of level scaling where you get less expirence for defeating low level monsters and higher expirence for defeating higher level monsters. This allows for effective grinding when necessary or desired, though the game can be built so that the grinding is entirely unnecessary. On torment, I like the fact that you can go grind if you really can't get past a point. If you go as a singleton, you'll need to be many levels higher to do the hardest quests (even though they're optional) and with a level cap you can't get past a certain point make things impossible. With a level cap, many challenges that the game can bring are no longer an option.

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Originally Posted By: Txgangsta
I loved the skill tree (and really loved how the best items increased the skill tree stuff!), however I really disliked the lack of stat customization that is so prevalent in geneforge and avernum (avernum had way more though, it ended up being my favorite too). There are only 4 stats to put anything in, and on any character, only 2 are really useful (primary weapon stat and endurance). I'd like to have more to choose from in customizing characters. However, I realize that Jeff has moved into the iPad, so things like that might not be possible.

"this isnt demon's souls, most games cant accomplish a really high level cap, because you need more/harder combat and traps and such for higher levels, so unless you want each game to take 5 years or want level scaling dont complain."

I want level scaling. Specifically, I like Jeff's style of level scaling where you get less expirence for defeating low level monsters and higher expirence for defeating higher level monsters. This allows for effective grinding when necessary or desired, though the game can be built so that the grinding is entirely unnecessary. On torment, I like the fact that you can go grind if you really can't get past a point. If you go as a singleton, you'll need to be many levels higher to do the hardest quests (even though they're optional) and with a level cap you can't get past a certain point make things impossible. With a level cap, many challenges that the game can bring are no longer an option.


you do know that unless the monsters continually get stronger infinitely(like oblivion style scaling) then eventually even drakons and unbound(for example) will be too low level to give you EXP right?

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Originally Posted By: devilkingx
- demons, they're awesome but they werent in any geneforge but G2 and then they were mysteriously removed, probably to quell the "magic and demons in video games is the equivalent of devil worshiping and satanism in real life" crowd but whatever the reason its nice to see them back in the series, they are mythology staples.


Forgot to comment on this earlier, and it's too late to edit it into my first post.

Ok, so there are demons, and you love that. Great. Absolutely great that you enjoy part of the mythology of this game. Alas, you seem to think that Jeff purposely removed demons from the Geneforge games because of some taboo. This really isn't the case, as far as I know. Jeff didn't put demons into many games because, well, they didn't fit into the games. I believe that there is a demon (or something along the lines of one) in the midsection of G5.

And while demons are common in fantasy stories and games, they are not necessary. I would rather have a game without demons than a game with demons thrown in where they don't belong.

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Jeff is on the record as saying the reason the spell to summon a demon was present in the Exile series but not the Avernum series was because of emails from upset parents.

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Not everyone thinks that their child can grow up summoning demons on games and quit cold turkey once the game gets boring. =)

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Game review:

I guess its ok.I do have a few ideas.For the Knothead who wrote the ending,what an idiot.What were you thinking,why do I wanna kill redbeard?I really don't.I do wanna kill his 2 faced wife.Well....I'm not able too,You know why?Because jeff has the ending already played out,well thats ignorant.

Come on dude.....give me a ending thats my choice,I still had way too many things happening.My thought is don't send me somewhere else because I didn't kill redbeard,or better yet don't fix the ending so's I can't go back and finish other tasks.I can't get back out of avadon,well thats really ignorant.I wanna explore other areas...WTF

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OMG....bones scraping across stone,WOW is that anything like your grade school teacher scratching her finger nails across the blackboard.ewwwwwwwwww.

Skeleton bones below your feet...huh......should you kick 'em,well Hell yeah......Ooooppps,where did these suckers come from?

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I'm gonna go thru a 2nd time...There will be some changes.

I will wipe clean every area I go.Maybe....I know in A-6 that wasn't the case.Another 1 of jeff's ignorant by laws,you can't kill everything,we'll see how it goes.

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Originally Posted By: Master1
Originally Posted By: devilkingx
- demons, they're awesome but they werent in any geneforge but G2 and then they were mysteriously removed, probably to quell the "magic and demons in video games is the equivalent of devil worshiping and satanism in real life" crowd but whatever the reason its nice to see them back in the series, they are mythology staples.


Forgot to comment on this earlier, and it's too late to edit it into my first post.

Ok, so there are demons, and you love that. Great. Absolutely great that you enjoy part of the mythology of this game. Alas, you seem to think that Jeff purposely removed demons from the Geneforge games because of some taboo. This really isn't the case, as far as I know. Jeff didn't put demons into many games because, well, they didn't fit into the games. I believe that there is a demon (or something along the lines of one) in the midsection of G5.

And while demons are common in fantasy stories and games, they are not necessary. I would rather have a game without demons than a game with demons thrown in where they don't belong.


I was actually a little irked that Moritz'Kri's big super secret surprise, complete with evil laughter and gleeful hand-rubbing, turned out to be a demon. Really? Ho hum.

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Originally Posted By: CAJUN
Game review:
I guess its ok.I do have a few ideas.For the Knothead who wrote the ending,what an idiot.What were you thinking,why do I wanna kill redbeard?I really don't.I do wanna kill his 2 faced wife.Well....I'm not able too,You know why?Because jeff has the ending already played out,well thats ignorant.
Come on dude.....give me a ending thats my choice,I still had way too many things happening.My thought is don't send me somewhere else because I didn't kill redbeard,or better yet don't fix the ending so's I can't go back and finish other tasks.I can't get back out of avadon,well thats really ignorant.I wanna explore other areas...WTF


First of all, calling Jeff at "knothead" really isn't very nice. No one made you buy his product. Additionally, Jeff can't anticipate every desired ending to a game. Having n significant endings is already n-1 endings more than most games. So yes, I sympathize that your ideal ending wasn't possible. But I also realize the limitations of a small company trying to release a brand new title in a single year.

That said, I do agree that it would have been nice to hold of on the very final battle (before going up the stairs) and revisit other areas. I guess it doesn't fit story-wise, but it's always fun to revisit early areas. Jeff does warn you that the final sequence is long and tedious, but he doesn't say it's a point-of-no-return.

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Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves
I was actually a little irked that Moritz'Kri's big super secret surprise, complete with evil laughter and gleeful hand-rubbing, turned out to be a demon. Really? Ho hum.

Moritz'Kri may be a cliche, but Beloch still managed to be one of the better characters in the game.

Dikiyoba.

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