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End of Days - An AIMHack Campaign!

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Originally Posted By: Dintiradan
In general, you've got to suspend disbelief for the things that are required by the premise of a work of fiction (there's probably a trope for this -- Diki?).


this one maybe (warning: is tvtropes, causes cancer)

so yeah maybe complaining about the premise of the campaign is a little harsh (although the fact that it's a hard premise to do right is worth keeping in mind before you decide to do it), but everything else is fair game i think

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Originally Posted By: Lilith
Originally Posted By: Dintiradan
In general, you've got to suspend disbelief for the things that are required by the premise of a work of fiction (there's probably a trope for this -- Diki?).


this one maybe (warning: is tvtropes, causes cancer)

so yeah maybe complaining about the premise of the campaign is a little harsh (although the fact that it's a hard premise to do right is worth keeping in mind before you decide to do it), but everything else is fair game i think

I think you missed my point. I wasn't complaining about the premise of having a magic time loop. I was pointing out that by the internal logic of the campaign, this particular time loop should have collapsed on itself before it ever began. It was established in-story that the party couldn't time travel without Cassandra's help (or help of the diary), but also established in-story that Cassandra only intervened because the party asked her to do so years in the future, long after the party had been killed.

In short, I'm not going after the premise, I'm going after an inconsistency inside the premise. If the party had been sent forward because of, say, a mishap with E'lessra's killing spell or Cassandra deciding to come back for her own reasons, I wouldn't be raising this as an issue.

I'll admit that I tend to be rather critical of any plot that involves time travel. I'll also admit that holes like this can usually be handwaved away (like saying, "Oh, it's just broken time"). However, when one of the main underlying points throughout the whole campaign is to piece together the plot from the clues given, you should not have holes in the plot and/or premise that renders the whole thing an exercise in futility.

(Not to say that having a campaign where the plot is basically one long exercise in futility would be a bad thing, but it'd have to be handled very, very carefully.)

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Originally Posted By: Nioca
I think you missed my point. I wasn't complaining about the premise of having a magic time loop. I was pointing out that by the internal logic of the campaign, this particular time loop should have collapsed on itself before it ever began. It was established in-story that the party couldn't time travel without Cassandra's help (or help of the diary), but also established in-story that Cassandra only intervened because the party asked her to do so years in the future, long after the party had been killed.


The way I read things, the plot seemed to imply that we didn't start the campaign anywhere near the first iteration of the loop, so we don't actually know that the party got killed the first time around or exactly how or why they originally asked for intervention.

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Originally Posted By: Lilith
Originally Posted By: Nioca
[blah blah internal logic blah blah plot hole rage blah blah blah]


The way I read things, the plot seemed to imply that we didn't start the campaign anywhere near the first iteration of the loop, so we don't actually know that the party got killed the first time around or exactly how or why they originally asked for intervention.

Fair point, though the party meeting Cassandra through more mundane circumstances seems unlikely; They had life spans at least as long as normal mortals, if not longer, so barring a freak occurance of the four in the middle getting cut down in rapid sequence, the party would have died of old age before ever meeting her. And seeing as the three ways to time travel we saw (Deliberate witch intervention, use of the diary, universal BSoD) were not applicable in that situation...

I dunno. Maybe it's just me bothered by it, in which case I'll drop it.

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I'm going to just pop in to address this first: I'll wait for anybody else to have their say before addressing anything else, but this sort of is important. Also, because of Slarty.

 

Quote:
The campaign should have ended at Session 1: The whole catalyst for the time loop was the party getting sent forward in time and enlisting Cassandra's help. Which is all well and good, EXCEPT that the only reason the party got sent forward is because Cassandra intervened and sent them forward in the first place. There's no cause for the effect; Cassandra could never have gone back, because doing so meant that the party went forward, which could only have been done with her help. In short: The party (from a logical perspective) should have died during that first fight.

 

I'm going to first copy/paste something from Wikipedia:

 

'With the four Fiends defeated [...] a portal to 2000 years in the past opens in the Temple of Fiends. There the Warriors discover that the four Fiends sent Garland back in time and he sent the Fiends to the future to do so, creating a time loop by which he could live forever.' (From here) Basically, it's the same issue - he sends them forward so that they can send him back, so that he can send them forward so that they can... you get the image. It's a paradox.

 

I acknowledge that a lot of the points raised are valid (yeah, there were plot holes, and I guess the time has passed for me to wave my hand and say "woo, broken universe"), but Cassandra sending the party back does make sense, even though, like Garland, she creates a paradox to do so.

 

160yadx.png

 

Does that help anybody, or does it make it all worse?

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Originally Posted By: Structualise THIS!
...but Cassandra sending the party back does make sense, even though, like Garland, she creates a paradox to do so.

160yadx.png

Does that help anybody, or does it make it all worse?

Gah. Okay, let me try to put it in a format you might be more familiar with.

Code:
//Avernumscript!variables;int x = 0; // Our first iteration. Everything's a blank slate.beginstate 10; //Party fights witch    //Insert witch-fight code here        if (x = 1) //If Cassandra knows to come back.        set_state_continue(11); //Cassandra rescues the party from certain death.    else kill_char(1000,0,0); //Else, E'lessra does not fall, everyone dies.end;beginstate 11; //Cassandra goes back to rescue party    //Party explains what happens to Cassandra, asks for help    x = 1; //Cassandra now knows she needs to go back.    set_state_continue(10); //And so back she goes.end;

Now, what would happen if you ran that code (other than likely crashing BoA because it's been a really long time since I've written AScript)? Obviously, the code would terminate in a total party kill. State 11 is triggered by State 10, but State 10 only triggers State 11 if State 11 has already been previously triggered. Since State 11 has not been triggered previously, it does not trigger now, and the party dies a possibly horrible death.

Make sense now?

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Sure, I know what you're saying, but Cassandra already knows to send them back because otherwise why is she there in the first place?

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(Basically, the thing with stable time loops is that they've always been there. The time line come pre-bent; there is no magic "first instance".)

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Originally Posted By: Structualise THIS!
Sure, I know what you're saying, but Cassandra already knows to send them back because otherwise why is she there in the first place?
...

*headdesk*

Okay, I think I'm done banging my head against this brick wall. Anyone else want to take it up?

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stable-time-loop.png

 

EDIT: Okay, after thinking it over, that image isn't all that clear on its own. Yes, stable time loops could never exist in reality, just like Troll Physics doesn't work in reality either (

). But when you are dealing with a work of fiction, you just accept what's required for the premise to work, like accepting that FTL travel can work without messing with the laws of causality and physics.

 

If you want an example of a well-known short story that involves a stable time loop (and thus a situation where the effect is the cause), check out All You Zombies by Heinlein.

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So am I the only one who thinks that at this point discussing "plot holes" any further is just going to be a huge distraction? There's not very much that can be learned from them in future campaigns, except maybe "don't make a time travel plot if you want the players to be able to piece together the causal connections between events in the campaign." It might be time to stop haranguing Nikki on this particular issue and move on to stuff we can learn from.

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Though I am not an AIMhacker (trying Skype D&D soon, though, if anyone's interested), I DMed a time travel campaign once. Despite a strong background in time travel fiction, I found it terrifically difficult to satisfy everyone's expectations. So... yeah. Thuryl's got a point.

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Games where the players are supposed to figure something out from subtle clues are always difficult, in my experience. Even with very smart players who know the gamemaster very well, things are usually far less obvious than the gamemaster thinks. Fantasy worlds are full of outrageous premises, so who's to say which strange apparent inconsistencies are supposed to stand out as demanding an explanation, and which ones are supposed to be covered under the basic and general willing suspension of disbelief?

 

Artificially well-defined puzzles, like the corny old Evil Wizard's Riddle, work better, because even if the answers are obscure, the questions are clearly flagged. Maybe that's the key: you need a way to flag questions, so that players know what they're supposed to be trying to resolve, instead of simply accepting. This may seem to be giving too much away, but I think it's probably just the right way to go, within the limits of the genre.

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No, in this case we all knew we were supposed to be trying to figure things out -- or at least, we were all trying to figure things out whether we were supposed to or not. We just straight-up didn't have enough information to do so.

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Sooo... sorry for the lateness of this. It took me a while to just get it down in writing. Here is Aaron's epilog, in which he gets a visit from someone from his past...

Click to reveal.. (Epilog)
Aaron spent the entire trip back to Houghton lost in his own thoughts. He said not a word to his companions the entire time, and halfheartedly bid farewell when they parted. He booked a room at an inn, intending to leave the next morning. He didn't know where we would go. He never did.

Even with the celebrations sweeping the city, Aaron felt no joy in what he had done. Yes, the witch was dead, but she didn't need to be. He turned the events that had transpired over and over again in his head, trying to find the mistake they had made. That he had made. Feeling very tired, he climbed up to his room and lay down on the bed. So engrossed in his own thoughts was he that he didn't even notice the woman sitting on a chair in the corner.

"There you are, Aaron. I've been looking everywhere for you." Aaron sat bolt upright, the woman's voice finally snapping him out of his reverie.

"Rosalyn," said Aaron. "What are you doing here?"

"Well that's a fine thing to ask you fiancé."

Aaron panicked. If Rosalyn was here, then that would mean… He reached for his sword and jumped to his feet.

Rosalyn just shook her head and said, "Don't even try it. There are five armed guards downstairs ready to grab you if you try to run, and another ten outside."

Aaron stood there and stared at Rosalyn, trying to determine if she was bluffing, but he knew she wasn't. Rosalyn rarely lied. It was one of the things he liked about here. One of the few things he liked about her.

Rosalyn continued, "Aaron, despite what you may think, and most of all despite everything you've put your family and mine through, I'm not here to bring you back. At least, not for the reason you're thinking of." Aaron just continued to stare at her. "Aaron, how much news have you heard from Selaneus since you left?"

"None. Why?"

Rosalyn took a deep breath, preparing herself for what was about to happen. "Your father is dead, Aaron."

Aaron sat back down on the bed. He was stunned. That was the only word for it. He had spent so much time and effort hating and running from his father that he had never really considered what he would feel if his father died. There were still things unsaid between them, things Aaron had avoided saying by leaving. Now he would never get the chance to confront his father over the issues they had disagreed upon, and somehow that made Aaron sad.

"Wha… What about my mother," Aaron asked.

"She has been trying to keep House Calasir in order, but without an heir…" Rosalyn's voice trialed of, but Aaron knew what she was saying. He was the only heir, the only one who could keep the line going. His mother could keep things running in his absence, but without him the house would surely fall.

Suddenly all those lessons about duty and putting his family's needs above his own rushed back to Aaron. He had hated those long-winded lectures his father had given him. He almost wanted to remain where he was to spite the old man, but that wouldn't accomplish anything. There were others who needed him now. He had a chance to do things right.

Rosalyn gave him a searching look and asked, "Aaron, what are you going to do?"

 

After a two year absence, Aaron Calasir finally returned to Selaneus and took his father's title. Though the noble house had been small and weakening upon his arrival, he was able to lead it into a bright new age of prosperity. He did marry, though not the woman his father had intended him to marry. He also had a son who grew up listening to his father's wild tales of adventure, most especially the ones about the good witch Cassandra.

 

Near the back of a large garden owned by House Calasir, there is a secret clearing with a lone tree growing in the center. Aaron had planted it himself, and, though he knew that it would never bear the fruit he wished it could, he imaged Cassandra could see it and would smile every time she did.

If you found that confusing, perhaps this will clear it up: Aaron's secret backstory!

Click to reveal.. (What really happened)
Aaron is the only child of House Calasir, a small noble house residing in Selaneus on the island of Selos. From the time he was very young he had been educated in the ways of noble houses. He was taught history, politics, mathematics, geography, and, when he was older, swordplay. Of course, the most important lesson Aaron's parents tried to teach him was the importance of duty, something Aaron never quite agreed with them on. He had his own ideas about where he wanted his life to go.

Things came to a head one night during a banquet. Aaron's parents had arranged for him to be married to the daughter of another noble family to signify their new alliance. They announced this plan during the festivities, much to Aaron's and his new fiancé’s surprise.

Aaron was convinced that trying to change his father's mind would be futile, and he had no wish to marry the young lady his father had picked out. That night, Aaron packed up some of his belongings, some coins and small gems, and his favorite shortsword and left home without saying a word to either of his parents.

Aaron's first destination was Sarden. Now, Aaron is the first to admit that walking into Sarden with pockets full of jingling coins wasn't the brightest thing he ever did. He had only been in the city for five minutes before he found himself in a back alley being mugged. After that, Aaron had only the clothes on his back, his trusty shortsword, and enough money to pay for cot at an inn and a pint of ale.

Aaron was sitting, drowning his sorrow in ale and considering going back to his family when a human man came up to him and sat beside him. The man introduced himself as Solomon. Solomon was the head of a caravan that traveled between Selaneus and Myundt with a stopover in Sarden. He had noticed Aaron and wanted to know if he wanted a job as a caravan guard on their route to Myundt. Aaron accepted.

After arriving in Myundt, Solomon gave Aaron a book (which turned out to be a spellbook on illusions), saying that he would need it someday, and told Aaron to look for an old dragonborn seer in the city who went by the name of Durin. Then Solomon left. Aaron never saw him again.

It wasn't long before Aaron found Durin. It was almost as if Durin was waiting for him. The old dragonborn told Aaron that he was fated. There was a plan set in motion by Imaunte, and Aaron was key to it. Durin said that he would only find his destiny if he ventured to the other islands, and that he could not stay in Myundt if he wished to remain free.

Aaron, in his usual willful manner, decided to ignore this advice. A couple days later, he was almost captured by a bounty hunter sent to bring him back to his family. Aaron boarded a ship headed to a nearby island that very same day.

Since then, Aaron has been hopping from island to island, doing odd jobs for money and avoiding the bounty hunters that manage to find him. He had just arrived in Houghton when the conflict broke out, and he was caught up in it like everyone else.

Click to reveal.. (Regrettable Scenario)
Several months ago, when Aaron was on the island of Koros he was having trouble finding any jobs. He ended up falling in with a small group of bandits. Aaron has always tried to uphold the law wherever he goes, but in this case he didn't have much choice. He waylaid caravans and travelers to keep from starving. He regretted that decision almost as soon as he made it, but the others would not let him back out of the group. He wasn't able to leave until the group was attacked by vigilantes. The surviving members scattered, and Aaron left the island as quickly as possible.

 

(And of course now I can think of a good regrettable scenario)

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I was re-reading the thread, and I noticed this:

Originally Posted By: Nikki
Reminder: it's about 2 hours until Session 3, and I'm going to do something no other DM has managed - I'm going to GUARANTEE the death of a party member.

Well, I can't help but notice that all of the PCs made it through alive. What gives? tongue

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Yes, however...

Originally Posted By: Session 3 Afterlog
(12:57:23 AM) Sarachim: In fact, I bet I'd have had an emotional reaction to the hanging if Nikki hadn't spoiled it before the session, because then I would have been surprised. tongue

(12:57:27 AM) Nalyd: The hanging worked, and very well, but was by nature an "Aw, man." moment.

(12:57:54 AM) Nikki: actually, i intended somebody to actually die

(12:57:59 AM) Nikki: i told dinti this

(12:58:01 AM) Lilith: Who? tongue

(12:58:03 AM) Nalyd: Which, I mean, is what a hanging is for.

(12:58:08 AM) Dintiradan: Yep, I can attest.

(12:58:27 AM) Nalyd: Really? You couldn't have foreseen my ill-fated party-splitting.

(12:58:30 AM) Dintiradan: Of course, I wasn't watching for half the session.

(12:58:31 AM) Nalyd: How?

(12:58:41 AM) Dintiradan: Did someone die? ;-p

(12:58:46 AM) Nalyd: Almost.

(12:58:52 AM) Lilith: Only an NPC, which doesn't count. tongue

(12:58:59 AM) Nikki: Yeah, no, it was one of you.

(12:59:09 AM) Nioca: Who?

(12:59:10 AM) Nikki: But I won't ruin it, I'll save it for later.

(12:59:24 AM) Nalyd: You're horribly cruel.

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I'm going to address things in more or less a chronological order here, and then add my own thoughts at the end. So, apologies for a loooong post, but it's high-time I added this.

 

So, I think the point Lilith brings up, that it all felt like a bunch of set-pieces is valid. I'd tried to give some form of cohesion, but I'm also aware that wasn't my strong point. I'll come to that in a second. Back to the set-pieces. Sure, and I did plan it as being quite disjointed so that you'd get the idea that the universe was pulling apart around you, and that you were being pushed from pillar to post. I did hope that there'd be some kind of coherence there, and that you/Cassandra would be a constant thread running through. Oh well.

 

"We didn't have enough information to fully understand what the heck was going on until the very end of the campaign, and even if we'd known what was up earlier, there was no clear way to do anything about the situation except press on and hope that killing the right person would solve it"

 

I think that's pretty astute. Sarachim pointed out that the way I handled his regret-thing was the same. I definitely fell short of the mark here; since the idea was to piece together what was going on, I didn't want to give away too much information. Unfortunately, that resulted in me either just outright not telling you things, or else making it incredibly subtle to the point of being unnoticable. There *was* supposed to be a sense of confusion, but (the way I planned it was that) by the time you rescued little Cassie and she threatened you all, you started realising that "hey, this [censored] is evil."

 

With combat, Lilith is right - I had no idea what the party was capable of. In that first combat (which wasn't meant to be too hard, granted), you annilhated the evil dwarf-thing. Then, I vaguely recall joking with Lilith that you'd kill E'lessra IN THE FIRST SESSION because of how hard you were hitting her. I don't think I ever got the hang of this. Sorry.

 

I'm going to jump right over Nioca's "the scenario shouldn't have happened" point. Not because I don't think it's valid what he's bringing up, but because I have tried to explain and it's still not going in. It's a paradox, which is what starts the whole "End of Days, universe-death" thing anyway. But we'll just walk right on by that.The other points he makes I will deal with though.

 

Okay, the First/Sixth thing is sort of tied up with that, and I can concede that maybe, just maybe, Cassie is too far in the future to really exist. That whole thing was a mistake from the beginning; she was first introduced as the "sixth" when the Commander at your camp spoke about your group. In effect, I was trying to pin her on as a constant NPC-ish. Certainly somebody who would be with you a lot (and I'll get on to that point in a second). The idea was that you'd have a different Cassandra through each of the sessions (the first, second, third, etc, and the sixth, that is the Cassie you knew, would be the last one because you'd kill all the witches). In the end, I realised it was kinda stupid, but had this label, and in trying to tie up that loose end (which I doubt would've been noticable), I made a glaringly big hole.

 

Yeah, the thing about one witch at a time? My bad. Of course, the universe was dying, so... tongue

 

Anyway, this came up a couple of times, I think. Cassie. Whilst I'm glad she was well-recieved, I'm sorry if you thought she (and by that I mean me) was stealing the limelight, or was too present in the campaign. I don't really have a defence for that, other than I need a Bob, and I like playing, and Cassie filled both roles for me. tongue

 

RE: Party death. Yes, the fake party died, but I had a really nice set-piece planned about somebody dying and going to Discord and blah blah, and then nobody did. So, it's not important (and would probably just confuse things :p).

 

I think I answered everything. Sarachim, I'm sure you said your bit to Lilith, but I'd be interested in anything you had to say that she didn't cover. Same with Beej. I'm going to just say a few things now.

 

I feel like I completely missed the point of engaging with the party. Cassie was meant to be a bridge, or a crutch, but I leaned on her too hard. I did introduce a few inconsistancies, which is fair, and given the nature of the campaign were far more important than any in, say, CoH or whatever. You guys, on the whole, were brilliant, so thanks. The only things I want to bring up are the ending, and something I noticed in the first session (and throughout, but not enough had happened to make you all confused the first time it happened so I think it's probably fair for me to bring it up).

 

First though, saving Cassie. I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think I have to concede it to you guys. It was a big assumption on my part that you knew (or suspected) Cassie of being evil at the beginning of the last session. Her note to leave the stuff was there because she wanted you to go to her unarmed, where she would kill you. That was one way she could've freed herself: without you, there would be no time loop, and she'd be happy in Discord doing whatever it was she did.

 

Of course, I expected you to go in, and and get the things, but when you did, you missed one room entirely (and it was the one that looked like somebody lived in it). Aluar peeked in, but (I think) assumed it was regret-related. That's probably my fault to an extent. With the items (and the two others, I'll come to those in a moment), you could've saved her, though I suppose I was, again, relying on you to figure out which order to use them in/how to use them/which ones to use.

 

The other two items Selffar collected were, as was pointed out, never previously introduced to you, but nobody decided to put one on, to see what it did, or try and examine it. Okay, fair enough, the plot was confusing and through my own faults I prevented that from happening. The point is, though, Cassie explicitely stated you only needed the three things she told you about.

 

So, big assumption again, if you'd done all that, got the items, blah blah blah, she was there to be saved. After reading your criticisms though, I don't think it was possible for you guys to save her, because of my failings. In effect, I stole your happy ending, unintentionally of course, and I can dig why you might feel cheated about this.

 

On second thought, I won't bring up my other issue, because I'm probably at least mainly responsible for that too.

 

My overall thoughts are that I feel like I've just let everybody involved down. I said to a few people I prefer playing to DMing, and I think that's true, but I do think that, to an extent, a lot of that is not feeling that I've delivered great sessions, and therefore didn't get that sense of accomplishment that we get as players. The story needed to be watertight, and it wasn't, and my assumptions from the players were far greater than they should've been, considering I was basing the assumptions on things I hadn't made clear to them.

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Oh yeah, and I'll do a log, and a nice campaign page, maybe sometime next week (tuesday/wednesday) when I'm less busy.

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Originally Posted By: Structualise THIS!
My overall thoughts are that I feel like I've just let everybody involved down. I said to a few people I prefer playing to DMing, and I think that's true, but I do think that, to an extent, a lot of that is not feeling that I've delivered great sessions, and therefore didn't get that sense of accomplishment that we get as players. The story needed to be watertight, and it wasn't, and my assumptions from the players were far greater than they should've been, considering I was basing the assumptions on things I hadn't made clear to them.
I think it's more the simple matter that, for your first campaign, you just wound up biting off a lot more than you could chew. DMing isn't an easy task; you've got to herd 4-7 characters that each have a mind of their own through exciting adventures, giving them a challenge while at the same time playing fair. When you add in the challenges of running a plot as complicated as this one... yeah, it becomes rather impressive that you did this well.

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Well, I'm afraid there isn't a whole lot I can say as this was the first time I'd played any kind of tabletop RPG. I don't really have any other experiences to compare this to, but I do have some thoughts.

 

In terms of plot, it was confusing, and I think you guys have all touched on the reasons why pretty well. I don't really have much to add here. I will say that while the overall, skeletal structure of the campaign was a bit of a jumble, the real meat of it, each adventure taken as an individual rather than as part of a whole, felt very straight forward, at least until the end. There was hardly ever any question of what we needed to do next until about half way through the last session, at which point the plot suddenly branched and we were all scratching our heads trying to figure out what we needed to do.

 

The combat at times did seem skewed, mostly in our favor. For a DM running his first campaign and presumably using a damage system of his own devising (which I'd love to hear about BTW) that isn't to surprising. IIRC, every DM so far has used a different system, and while that is not necessarily a bad thing the lack of a standardized system does make it harder for new DMs to properly balance combat until they get a better feel for it. This I think leads to combat at the beginning of a campaign feeling more unbalanced, which is what happened with EoD. With taking that into account, the combat in EoD felt about right to me.

 

So, yeah. That's all I've got to say for now. If I think of anything that no one else has brought up, I'll post it.

Oh, and once again, thanks for the fun campaign Nikki. smile

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Veteran game designer Robin Laws just posted this article on his blog, which I think is relevant to a lot of the problems we had in this campaign. Premise concealment is definitely an issue we can diagnose as having affected EoD, I think: in particular, a couple of players were vague with their regrets because they had no way of knowing what they'd be used for.

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