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I believe the "humanitarian" concern about hollowpoints was due to, as mentioned, them causing much more grievous injuries than ordinary bullets when they hit. People were fine about a direct shot killing someone, but not so much about a bad shot killing them or maiming them horribly.

 

On the flipside, hollowpoints are legal for civilian use due to their utility in hunting. A hollowpoint creates a much larger wound channel, making it much more likely to kill instead of just grievously wounding the animal.

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Why are hollow points it more likely to maim humans but more likely to kill animals? That seems funny to me. We're all the same meat, basically.

 

—Alorael, who suspects that there might be reason to put hollow point ammunition in sidearms for police forces expecting to fire at unarmored targets, i.e. most police forces. The bullets seem less likely to overpenetrate, less likely to go through barriers or ricochet, and possibly more likely to kill or incapacitate the target. On the other hand, arming your police to maim is a bad PR move. Armies generally have very different concerns, except in this new counterinsurgency thing, where the same concerns might apply.

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Originally Posted By: Alorael
Why are hollow points it more likely to maim humans but more likely to kill animals? That seems funny to me. We're all the same meat, basically.

When humans are shot they are generally taken to a hospital, unlike game animals which are left to die.

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I don't think there's any substance to the maiming theory. High velocity impacts from small projectiles just don't work the way most people think. It's not about making a bigger hole, but about efficient energy transfer.

 

I believe that preventing bullets from ricocheting, or from keeping on going through walls to hit unseen bystanders, is a big reason why police like expanding bullets. Maybe those issues should apply to military counterinsurgency operations. The Hague convention may simply be wrong: it's the solid bullets that are less humane.

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Originally Posted By: Excalibur
Originally Posted By: Alorael
Why are hollow points it more likely to maim humans but more likely to kill animals? That seems funny to me. We're all the same meat, basically.

When humans are shot they are generally taken to a hospital, unlike game animals which are left to die.


Animal Cruelity much?

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. . . Because the point of hunting is to wound an animal, and then nurse it back to health?

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If your going to hunt an animal, you'll mind as well eat it. I find wounding a fellow creature and leaving it there to slowly and painfully die a little heartless.

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If your going to hunt an animal you might as well kill it instantly in the heart or brain or somthing so that they dont have to suffer.

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Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha
If your going to hunt an animal you might as well kill it instantly in the heart or brain or somthing so that they dont have to suffer.

Usually that's what hunters try to do, but nobody has perfect aim. Inflicting a grievous wound allows the hunter to follow the animal and finish it off.

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Instantly lethal wounds on an animal at a long enough distance to avoid detection are pretty difficult. It usually takes one shot to cripple it and then another one while it's wounded to finish it off.

 

And the point of hunting usually is to kill and eat it. Everyone I know who hunts does this, it's not like they're emotionless psychopaths who enjoy torturing deer or something. Besides, it's arguable hunting your own meat is more moral than the alternative- not only are you the one who saw the consequences of eating meat, but a deer you hunt almost certainly suffers less than the cow whose meat you buy prepackaged in your local Jewel, who can be forced to live in some pretty unbearable conditions in factory farms.

 

And to clarify, I am in fact an avid meat-eater who used to hunt. But now that's too much time and effort so I now only use my guns for trap shooting and target practice and home defense and such.

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Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha
Some people hunt just to put them heads or antlers on the wall.


What do you think they do with the rest of the animal? The vast majority of the people who put trophies on walls also eat what they kill. It really shouldn't be that difficult of a concept to grasp, but I run into perfectly rational people all the time who for whatever reason think that their stereotype of hunters as callous murderers is totally accurate and refuse to change it. I blame Disney, and especially Bambi. [censored] Bambi.

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I've never met or heard spoken of any hunter who even had a trophy. I've heard a lot of keen discussions about how to serve venison. Inasmuch as none of the people talking needed to eat deer to survive, this maybe amounts to a form of edible trophy. But I really can't see the moral difference between hunted venison and supermarket beef.

 

As it turns out, "Bambi" is not actually a common name among deer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Originally Posted By: Dantius
I blame Disney, and especially Bambi. [censored] Bambi.

I think you should blame Warner Bros., especially Elmer Phud who specifically says he's a vegetarian and hunts for sport.

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At least here in Finland, the myth of "all hunters are callous murderers!" is a bit funny, since to get a hunting license you have to go through a course called Ethical Hunting.

 

As for the moral difference between cattle and prey - I've heard some vegetarians claim that if everyone had to butcher their own meat, no-one would eat it. This based on the fact that an urban person isn't much involved in preparing the meat, and might not interact with livestock at all. I guess the belief is that the experience would be so shocking as to make them disavow meat, and indeed I've heard some stories of this happening.

 

Obviously, it can't be true, cause there are people (like me) who are perfectly willing and capable of killing animals personally to eat them.

 

Point is - there's a very different level of personal involvement, and obviously a different mindset is required.

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Both vegetarians and hunters get a bad reputation from their less reasonable practitioners. I don't personally eat meat because I empathize with all creatures and cannot bring myself to kill them just because I like how they taste. I'm sure I could if I had to do, but I don't so I wont.

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Originally Posted By: Frozen Feet
As for the moral difference between cattle and prey - I've heard some vegetarians claim that if everyone had to butcher their own meat, no-one would eat it. This based on the fact that an urban person isn't much involved in preparing the meat, and might not interact with livestock at all. I guess the belief is that the experience would be so shocking as to make them disavow meat, and indeed I've heard some stories of this happening.
If everyone had to butcher their own meat, there would be a lot less people averse to the idea, since it would be just another part of everyday life. Because butchering your own meat is not as commonplace as it once was, it's only natural for people to be at least a little shocked when they see it. It even turned me off the time I saw it, but it won't stop me from eating meat.
Quote:
Obviously, it can't be true, cause there are people (like me) who are perfectly willing and capable of killing animals personally to eat them.

Point is - there's a very different level of personal involvement, and obviously a different mindset is required.
I'll admit the thought of having to kill and butcher an animal churns my stomach a bit. If I had to choose between that and starvation, I could probably do it.

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My God Father/babysitter, when I was younger, was a hunter, so I've seen animals butchered for food, it never struck mr as that big a deal. I'd imagine that the amount of people who would turn away from eating meat if they had to butcher it themselves would be much fewer than most would imagine, especially if it was a necessity. The younger generations even more so.

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There are trophy hunters who don't eat what they kill, but the hunts for big bears and big cats are really a dying breed. Pun intended!

 

—Alorael, who doesn't like the "don't eat it if you can't kill and butcher it" argument either. Many people also have trouble watching surgery, but no one would argue that they shouldn't be able to receive it. Skill and tolerances are wonderful things, and it's even more wonderful that people can pursue many different skills and rely on other people for what they can't do. Like butcher meat and fix their own meat when it gets butchered.

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i've cleaned and gutted a fish before and it was more tedious than horrifying

 

but then again i was a biologist

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Nah, cleaning fish is easy. Killing them isn't too bad either. The horrifying moments in fishing are the little accidents, like when you hook a fish through the eye or a duck takes your line.

 

Dikiyoba.

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Fun fact: accidentally putting a fish in a bucket of bleach is horrifying too.

 

—Alorael, who has not cleaned and gutted a fish. He has vivisected several. He felt no first-order horror but he did have some second-order guilt about it.

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Originally Posted By: 95% confident, give or take 5%
—Alorael, who doesn't like the "don't eat it if you can't kill and butcher it" argument either.
Same here. I'm pretty good cook, but don't ask me to to kill and butcher something before making it into tonight's dinner.

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Does slaughtering a chicken nugget count? I can do that with no big grief, though I do feel some second order guilt at hastening the day on which vast nugget herds no longer roam the range. I'm also worried about how many fishsticks we can keep on taking out of the oceans of this planet.

 

On the other hand, Richard Dawkins' arguments about the evolution of breading have always seemed a little forced to me. So maybe there'll always be more where the others came from.

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Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
On the other hand, Richard Dawkins' arguments about the evolution of breading have always seemed a little forced to me. So maybe there'll always be more where the others came from.


You're delusional, breading is endangered, that's why my group has been lobbying congress to have it protected, but so far our efforts have been ignored.

I ask the Spiderweb community to join with me and my fellow compatriots, we must stop the unrestrained harvesting of breading and crumb toppings before it is to late!

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Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
Does slaughtering a chicken nugget count? I can do that with no big grief, though I do feel some second order guilt at hastening the day on which vast nugget herds no longer roam the range. I'm also worried about how many fishsticks we can keep on taking out of the oceans of this planet.

On the other hand, Richard Dawkins' arguments about the evolution of breading have always seemed a little forced to me. So maybe there'll always be more where the others came from.


Breading chicken is obvious evidence of unintelligent design! Why would a human take perfectly good meat and surround it with breadcrumbs and eggs? Clearly only a massive corporation would be capable of such a feat of creation!

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Out of curiosity, how many people here hunt, and if so, what?

 

Personally I hunt deer, elk, and occasionally go shoot some pheasants.

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I hunt deer and rabbits but this year might go for an elk also. My in laws and friends also hunt and I get a supply of quail and pheasant from them.

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I only ever shot of BB at a squirrl. im not even aloud to have a gun givin im thirteen without parental supervision. And they arnt gonna do that anytime soon, And i would be a horrible hunter anyway, i would be so sad for the killed. "POOR SQUIRRL!"

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Fishing is hunting too, don't know if many people make that connection or not. As for gutting and cleaning fish, unless the fish swallowed the hook, I aways catch and release. (But Bull Trout are always catch and release in the water. State regulation.)

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I fish every once in a while, but Nevada isn't the greatest place for it.

 

I don't mind gutting a fish, but I think it's weird that their organs twitch after being removed.

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Originally Posted By: Excalibur
I fish every once in a while, but Nevada isn't the greatest place for it.

I don't mind gutting a fish, but I think it's weird that their organs twitch after being removed.
The drive home after fishing is the worst. You've already killed the fish, but you can still hear them thrashing around in the bag.

Zombie fish.

(Shudders.)

But I've eaten my fair share, and I haven't turned. Yet.

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The fish thrashes in the bag? I thought it was the fish ghost trying to get out. Well, now I know.

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Alorael said somthing about putting a fish in a bucket of bleach. What would happen if you did that?

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Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha
Alorael said somthing about putting a fish in a bucket of bleach. What would happen if you did that?


It kills it by suffocating (drowning?) it with no breathable oxygenated water. Expect it to thrash around a lot.

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...I have to try that some time. I also want to put a grenade in a fishes mouth and pull the pin just to see what happens.

 

You just sitting there holding a fishing pole wih a grenade on it, a second string attached to the pin

 

The fish: swims up and tries to eat the grenade

 

You: pull the pin...

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Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha
...I have to try that some time. I also want to put a grenade in a fishes mouth and pull the pin just to see what happens.

You just sitting there holding a fishing pole wih a grenade on it, a second string attached to the pin

The fish: swims up and tries to eat the grenade

You: pull the pin...


Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha
Animal Cruelity much?

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Originally Posted By: Rowen
Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha
Alorael said somthing about putting a fish in a bucket of bleach. What would happen if you did that?


It kills it by suffocating (drowning?) it with no breathable oxygenated water. Expect it to thrash around a lot.

Actually, bleach probably isn't especially low in oxygen; it's still mostly water. The problem is that concentrated bleach is extremely toxic. The fish went into convulsion and appeared to have hemorrhaging in their gills.

—Alorael, who does not recommend trying it. It is not a quick, clean, or pleasant way to kill a fish. It is, in fact, just a step from vivisecting squirrels in your yard.

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Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha

The fish: swims up and tries to eat the grenade.

Ah, but fish don't like to eat grenades. You need to trick them. First, feed the grenade to a worm.

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Originally Posted By: Spiders and Lies

—Alorael, who does not recommend trying it. It is not a quick, clean, or pleasant way to kill a fish. It is, in fact, just a step from vivisecting squirrels in your yard.

If you vivisect squirrels in your back yard, you will one day end up as Hegemon of the entire world though.

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Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity
Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha

The fish: swims up and tries to eat the grenade.

Ah, but fish don't like to eat grenades. You need to trick them. First, feed the grenade to a worm.


Good luck with that. You have to disguise the grenade as a rotting apple first.

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus
Originally Posted By: Spiders and Lies

—Alorael, who does not recommend trying it. It is not a quick, clean, or pleasant way to kill a fish. It is, in fact, just a step from vivisecting squirrels in your yard.

If you vivisect squirrels in your back yard, you will one day end up as Hegemon of the entire world though.


Are you trying to encourage me?

Originally Posted By: Enraged Slith


Um... That's one of the more disgusting food-things that I've heard of.

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Originally Posted By: Tyranicus
Originally Posted By: Spiders and Lies

—Alorael, who does not recommend trying it. It is not a quick, clean, or pleasant way to kill a fish. It is, in fact, just a step from vivisecting squirrels in your yard.

If you vivisect squirrels in your back yard, you will one day end up as Hegemon of the entire world though.


No, that only happens if you vivisect animals in your backyard and your little brother is Hitler reincarnated. Then you get to be Hegemon of the world.

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I've always wanted to know what would happen if I played hopscotch in a mine field.

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Originally Posted By: Dantius
Originally Posted By: Tyranicus
Originally Posted By: Spiders and Lies

—Alorael, who does not recommend trying it. It is not a quick, clean, or pleasant way to kill a fish. It is, in fact, just a step from vivisecting squirrels in your yard.

If you vivisect squirrels in your back yard, you will one day end up as Hegemon of the entire world though.


No, that only happens if you vivisect animals in your backyard and your little brother is Hitler reincarnated. Then you get to be Hegemon of the world.

I'm not sure if you got the reference or not, but you certainly misunderstood it.

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