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ripfengor

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So I've been an avid player of Spiderweb games (and lurker on the forums) for many years, they're a part of my childhood, and now that I'm 18, I hoped I'd be able to participate in the beta for this new series (Avadon obviously). I read a few posts about this as it was entering beta for Mac, and I was bummed but realized the Windows beta would come later. Most of the posts said Jeff sticks to people who have beta tested his games in the past. Are there any types of categories he looks for specifically, or is there even a chance of being a new first time Spiderweb beta-tester? I thought I was relatively well qualified, but at this point, I'm really just curious as to what he's looking for if anyone has any insight. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!

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He asks for new testers for every game. When he's ready to beta-test the Windows port he'll probably have an open call for testers. He wants a range of new and experienced players and a range of hardware, but my guess is the choice eventually comes down to flipping coins and rolling dice.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think he especially cares if the English is impeccable. Comprehensible, yes; he needs to get something out of reports. Perfect, no.

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" the choice eventually comes down to flipping coins and rolling dice."

 

No. This has never happened.

 

The choice comes down to who can write a clear and coherent application with full, grammatical sentences. This happens less often than you might think. Doesn't have to be impeccable, but it does have to be clear.

 

- Jeff Vogel

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Originally Posted By: Spidweb
The choice comes down to who can write a clear and coherent application with full, grammatical sentences. This happens less often than you might think.

Having spent significant time both as a TA and on the internet, I doubt my estimate of the number of people who can write complete sentences can go any lower.

"Its there doin stuff that would drive my high school English teacher insane lol!"
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Originally Posted By: Spidweb
choice comes down to who can write a clear and coherent application with full, grammatical sentences. This happens less often than you might think. Doesn't have to be impeccable, but it does have to be clear.

- Jeff Vogel



This is a solid answer to my question, thanks for clarifying!
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Originally Posted By: Spidweb
" the choice eventually comes down to flipping coins and rolling dice."

No. This has never happened.

The choice comes down to who can write a clear and coherent application with full, grammatical sentences. This happens less often than you might think. Doesn't have to be impeccable, but it does have to be clear.

- Jeff Vogel


Just a guess, but I'm thinking that being too experienced might work against you. If part of beta testing is idiot-proofing then having some idiot in you might be helpful.
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Yes. In particular, he needs people who aren't inveterate Spiderweb players for each round so that people will catch the bugs and glitches that are ignored by force of habit.

 

—Alorael, who isn't sure that always happens. And, of course, he also needs the people familiar enough to catch the very minor deviations from expected Spiderweb behavior.

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Probably not a big one. It shouldn't be hard for Jeff to find people running a variety of hardware configurations and operating system versions. He shouldn't need to cram them into fewer people.

 

—Alorael, who supposes the only real advantage is if you can, in fact, manage to play the beta twice at the same time. That's marginally valuable.

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
But I think Apple is making it harder to program for older systems.


It's probably not just a suspicion and you could sum it up as the Apple way. In a way they force your hand so you have to constantly upgrade your hardware and software. Remember way back in the day when such things as a mac clone existed? (Not exactly a successful experience, but meh.) If memory serves correctly, Apple is partly responsible for sending them the way beta tapes went... Don't get me wrong I love my old mac, along with my old dying ipod and being a masochist I'll still buy one but I think I love Jeff more for still porting to older OS.
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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
I think Apple is making it harder to program for older systems.


They're making it harder in the sense that current dev tools don't support ppc anymore, and they generally deprecate old platform sdk versions quickly with similar results, but you're free to use old tools (and very old Macs for testing).

Can't really blame them. Why invest in a market that is demonstrably unwilling to spend money?
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Yes, but other people do have that money, and are willing to spend it.

 

While I am sympathetic, look at the general standard of living in this country and what many people drop money on. Even a non-smartphone cell phone plan will probably cost at least $50 a month. Thus, in the 5+ years since a PPC user has bought a new computer, if she has a cell phone, she's likely spent over $3000 on that. And cell phones are ubiquitous these days.

 

I'd also say that -- again, in the context of this economy -- "once every five years" is hardly "on a whim."

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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
While I am sympathetic, look at the general standard of living in this country and what many people drop money on. Even a non-smartphone cell phone plan will probably cost at least $50 a month. Thus, in the 5+ years since a PPC user has bought a new computer, if she has a cell phone, she's likely spent over $3000 on that. And cell phones are ubiquitous these days.

I'd also say that -- again, in the context of this economy -- "once every five years" is hardly "on a whim."


That is assuming most people behave that way and it sure does seems like it when watching TV or reading the news. However privately, not everyone's behaviour is consumerism oriented. In any case, who are we to judge what people do with their budget? Personally I don't own a cell phone and I've barely just finished paying for my old G3 that had to be replaced because of a new OS... (I'll let you guess how much of the G5 as been paid so far.) So you might understand why I'm peeved about Apple's "you-have-to-buy-a-new-iMac-again-because-we-sure-as-hell-made-it-impossible-for-you-to-run-snow-leopard" company statement.

I do understand Apple's reasoning and I'm praying everyday that Jeff doesn't just decide to stop porting to old platforms... Well the "praying everyday" might be a tad much since I don't pray at all but you get my drift, right?

Originally Posted By: Master1
I'm willing to spend money, I just don't have an extra $1000+ to drop on a whim for a new computer.


Pretty much what I meant to say in far fewer words... I guess a refurbished iMac looks like a pretty good idea right now.
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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
Yes, but other people do have that money, and are willing to spend it.

While I am sympathetic, look at the general standard of living in this country and what many people drop money on. Even a non-smartphone cell phone plan will probably cost at least $50 a month. Thus, in the 5+ years since a PPC user has bought a new computer, if she has a cell phone, she's likely spent over $3000 on that. And cell phones are ubiquitous these days.

I'd also say that -- again, in the context of this economy -- "once every five years" is hardly "on a whim."


Plus, one of the things about buying a new computer is that, unlike buying, say, a car, you aren't paying $1000 for a marginal upgrade and aesthetic redesign of your old model- you're buying a device that is literally orders of magnitude more powerful (Well, in base 2). Just by using Moore's law as an approximation(I know it isn't perfect), a computer bought five years from now will be about six times as powerful for the same cost. And a computer bought ten years from now will be over 30 times as powerful. Now when you consider the fact that people are going out and buying hybrid cars that get barley twice their current MPG for tens of thousands of dollars, dropping a meager thousand on a piece of equipment you use four hours every day that's many times more powerful than your current one starts to seem like a lot less than "on a whim" and a lot more like a savvy investment.
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The main reasons for buying a new computer for me was a gaming company was no longer writing its upgrade to run on Power PC Macs and YouTube videos were increasingly harder to run on my old computer without upgrading the operating system. I still get messages about older versions on YouTube, but at least I can see them.

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If you don't need much out of a computer, you can get one for just a few hundred dollars that will take care of your needs for quite a few years. Internet, word processing, and maybe spreadsheets. Photos, if you're into dealing with those digitally.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't understand why you would need a new computer for a new OS if you don't need new software. And how much do you need it? Word processing was perfectly good ten years ago, and was quite serviceable in the 90's. Old browsers may be clunky, but they browse just fine. What do you need a new OS for if not for new software, which is itself consumerism?

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Originally Posted By: Pretty in Pink
In any case, who are we to judge what people do with their budget?


Setting up a budget means assigning funds to projects according to priorities. If the budget fails to account for a priority goal like being able to run reasonably current software, that is a measurable defect of the budget, and I don't see why a person can't be judged based on that. (If it's not a priority goal, then that person wouldn't complain on a forum of course, so we aren't talking about people who just think other things more important than video games.)
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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
Yes, but other people do have that money, and are willing to spend it.

While I am sympathetic, look at the general standard of living in this country and what many people drop money on. Even a non-smartphone cell phone plan will probably cost at least $50 a month. Thus, in the 5+ years since a PPC user has bought a new computer, if she has a cell phone, she's likely spent over $3000 on that. And cell phones are ubiquitous these days.

I'd also say that -- again, in the context of this economy -- "once every five years" is hardly "on a whim."


Here's the catch: I'm a high-school student. My phone is payed for by my parents, and my computer is my dad's old work computer.
Also, paying a small price for cell phones over a longer period of time is different, if not in the end then on a month-to-month basis. In order to pay a similar amount on a monthly basis from Apple, I'd end up paying for my computer multiple times thanks to interest (or at least, I expect that to be the case).
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What, is a new computer supposed to be handed to you?

 

You don't particularly sound like somebody who is enmeshed in the American upper classes' culture of entitlement. But as countless fathers have said to their children, "You want it? Get a job and save some money!"

 

I mean, seriously, the argument is that Apple should base their decisions about chips and software architecture on the economic needs of teenagers whose parents pay for some, but not all, of their luxuries?

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I'd like to point out that I was merely making an observation to begin with. If it sounded like a complaint, well, I'm very sorry. Obviously, there are some things I did not think through and the thought is far more complex in my brain than what I can manage to put into words. The more I try to unscramble it, the worst it comes out. Again, I'm sorry if it irked anyone. I'll pull the foot back from my mouth now.

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If you want to buy a computer and don't have the money, don't buy with interest. Start making small payments to yourself and don't buy anything until you've saved up the money to pay for it up front.

 

—Alorael, who gives himself the most money down but the lowest monthly payment. It's a fair deal.

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Originally Posted By: Master1
Here's the catch: I'm a high-school student. My phone is payed for by my parents, and my computer is my dad's old work computer.


Sounds like my situation in the 90ies (except nobody had mobile phones). I don't really see your point.

Quote:

In order to pay a similar amount on a monthly basis from Apple, I'd end up paying for my computer multiple times thanks to interest (or at least, I expect that to be the case).


You're not supposed to pay Apple. You save money and then pay in full. (Apple actually does have a deferred interest promotion for some credit card though. If I read that right, no interest in the first year if you buy a computer at $999 or more. I'm not so sure that a credit card promotion is something a high school student should be encouraged to use, or if you're old enough to qualify, but maybe your parents would agree to give you an interest-free loan instead to prevent you from asking for a credit card all the time :D)
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I'm not saying that I deserve a new computer, and I'm not complaining (too much). I realize that the show must go on and my old PowerBook won't last forever. I do have a job, and I am saving money. Likewise, I wouldn't buy on interest, I would save up to full price before buying.

 

I guess my point is just that it sucks for some of us who aren't able to keep up with the rest of the world.

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"the rest of the world"?

 

Look around and expand your world: most of the world has neither cutting-edge computers nor the leisure time to play games on them.

 

I'm not trying to be nitpicky about language here: I really am trying to make a point. The world is bigger than this. That can be hard to see as a teenager, when you have lived in one home your whole life. The world is bigger than this: it is a promise of hope, hope both for increased perspective and understanding of others, and hope also for survival and improvement when one's family situation is not so good. Threads converge.

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Yes, yes, Master1 is young and doesn't know everything. All young people are like that. I'm well into middle age and I'm still pretty ignorant, just like everyone else I know. It doesn't do any good to repeatedly lecture the boy/girl. Life, not strangers on a computer game forum, will teach him/her how to live.

 

He/she wants to have a nicer computer. That's an unimportant thing in the context of the universe, but so is the precise terminology used by a young person when discussing hardware and whether we have made sure that the young person really and truly understands socioeconomic class and personal finance to the satisfaction of Spiderweb forum posters.

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Originally Posted By: Master1
I guess my point is just that it sucks for some of us who aren't able to keep up with the rest of the world.


This gets even funnier when today's Wall Street Journal ran a story about how Microsoft will no longer support Internet Explorer 6 and all the companies trying to find work arounds to allow them to keep going with it so they don't have to upgrade their own software that requires IE6. No one wants to upgrade when it costs more and/or requires effort.
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Hey kids! Let's play a game of Guess That Logical Fallacy! The rules are simple: I'll post a sequence of comments and replies mad in this very thread, and you can guess which party committed which logical fallacy at what point in the thread! Guess right first and you might even win a very special prize!

 

Now, let's begin!

 

Click to reveal..

Originally Posted By: Master1

Originally Posted By: Danny The Fool
Can't really blame them. Why invest in a market that is demonstrably unwilling to spend money?

I'm willing to spend money, I just don't have an extra $1000+ to drop on a whim for a new computer.

 

Originally Posted By: Slarty
Yes, but other people do have that money, and are willing to spend it.

 

While I am sympathetic, look at the general standard of living in this country and what many people drop money on. Even a non-smartphone cell phone plan will probably cost at least $50 a month. Thus, in the 5+ years since a PPC user has bought a new computer, if she has a cell phone, she's likely spent over $3000 on that. And cell phones are ubiquitous these days.

 

I'd also say that -- again, in the context of this economy -- "once every five years" is hardly "on a whim."

 

Originally Posted By: Master1
Here's the catch: I'm a high-school student. My phone is payed for by my parents, and my computer is my dad's old work computer.

Also, paying a small price for cell phones over a longer period of time is different, if not in the end then on a month-to-month basis. In order to pay a similar amount on a monthly basis from Apple, I'd end up paying for my computer multiple times thanks to interest (or at least, I expect that to be the case).

 

Originally Posted By: Slarty
What, is a new computer supposed to be handed to you?

 

You don't particularly sound like somebody who is enmeshed in the American upper classes' culture of entitlement. But as countless fathers have said to their children, "You want it? Get a job and save some money!"

 

I mean, seriously, the argument is that Apple should base their decisions about chips and software architecture on the economic needs of teenagers whose parents pay for some, but not all, of their luxuries?

 

Originally Posted By: Master1
I'm not saying that I deserve a new computer, and I'm not complaining (too much). I realize that the show must go on and my old PowerBook won't last forever. I do have a job, and I am saving money. Likewise, I wouldn't buy on interest, I would save up to full price before buying.

 

I guess my point is just that it sucks for some of us who aren't able to keep up with the rest of the world.

 

Originally Posted By: Slarty
"the rest of the world"?

 

Look around and expand your world: most of the world has neither cutting-edge computers nor the leisure time to play games on them.

 

I'm not trying to be nitpicky about language here: I really am trying to make a point. The world is bigger than this. That can be hard to see as a teenager, when you have lived in one home your whole life. The world is bigger than this: it is a promise of hope, hope both for increased perspective and understanding of others, and hope also for survival and improvement when one's family situation is not so good. Threads converge.

 

 

Happy fallacy hunting!

 

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Quote:



Edited by Dantius (Today at 04:33 AM)
Edit Reason: I will now do this every time I see someone commit a fallacy. I expect this will result in a dramtic increase in my posting velocity.


Velocity probably isn't the right word here - unless, of course the direction of your posts is changing as well as the speed at which they are produced.
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The case you describe would be more like an acceleration, Nikki. Velocity still isn't the right word, though, particularly since rate of posting doesn't have a direction (since posts are not deleted, at least not by the poster, it is always a positive quantity, even). The correct word is of course frequency, since what Dantius is talking about is a scalar quantity with dimensions of inverse time.

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I used the term "velocity" not in the sense of the physics usage of the word, where velocity implies a vector quantity with a magnitude and direction, but in the economic sense of the word, where the monetary velocity equals the average frequency of units of money spent per unit of time, and simply altered the definition to "average frequency of posts in a fixed unit of time".

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  • 2 weeks later...

Bringing the pendulum back to poverty: My father-in-law is a wealthy dude. He tried to buy a house in California. Wanted to put down 80%(!) of the multi-million value IN CASH. Needed a loan for the remainder. He was a "don't buy it unless you've got the cash" guy. The last credit-type purchase he had made prior to the current house was his previous house in 1975 (which was paid off in the late 1980s)! Every car, vacation, kids' college tuition was paid for with cash or a check. Therefore, he didn't have a credit score. The bank refused to give him a loan. Meanwhile, though I am currently a stay-at-home mom and lack a pot to pee in, I have a score in the high sevens.

 

What to take away, kid at home wanting a better computer? When you get those offers for a credit card on a college campus in the next few years, go ahead and get one. But don't use it. Wait, save up your money, use the card and pay it off right away. Then you won't lose your dream home in Newport Coast because you were seen as a financial liability. smile

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Originally Posted By: MissSea
Bringing the pendulum back to poverty: My father-in-law is a wealthy dude. He tried to buy a house in California. Wanted to put down 80%(!) of the multi-million value IN CASH. Needed a loan for the remainder. He was a "don't buy it unless you've got the cash" guy. The last credit-type purchase he had made prior to the current house was his previous house in 1975 (which was paid off in the late 1980s)! Every car, vacation, kids' college tuition was paid for with cash or a check. Therefore, he didn't have a credit score. The bank refused to give him a loan. Meanwhile, though I am currently a stay-at-home mom and lack a pot to pee in, I have a score in the high sevens.

What to take away, kid at home wanting a better computer? When you get those offers for a credit card on a college campus in the next few years, go ahead and get one. But don't use it. Wait, save up your money, use the card and pay it off right away. Then you won't lose your dream home in Newport Coast because you were seen as a financial liability. smile

A "wealthy dude" can afford to hire a financial advisor to assist him in creating a credit score. Using and paying off a credit card every month is one way. It has the side benefit of paying you cash for using it (or other perks). Another option for a "wealthy dude" is to put up non-cash assets as collateral for the loan. Surely, a "wealthy dude" has non-cash assets?
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Originally Posted By: Soul of Wit
Originally Posted By: MissSea
Bringing the pendulum back to poverty: My father-in-law is a wealthy dude. He tried to buy a house in California. Wanted to put down 80%(!) of the multi-million value IN CASH. Needed a loan for the remainder. He was a "don't buy it unless you've got the cash" guy. The last credit-type purchase he had made prior to the current house was his previous house in 1975 (which was paid off in the late 1980s)! Every car, vacation, kids' college tuition was paid for with cash or a check. Therefore, he didn't have a credit score. The bank refused to give him a loan. Meanwhile, though I am currently a stay-at-home mom and lack a pot to pee in, I have a score in the high sevens.

What to take away, kid at home wanting a better computer? When you get those offers for a credit card on a college campus in the next few years, go ahead and get one. But don't use it. Wait, save up your money, use the card and pay it off right away. Then you won't lose your dream home in Newport Coast because you were seen as a financial liability. smile

A "wealthy dude" can afford to hire a financial advisor to assist him in creating a credit score. Using and paying off a credit card every month is one way. It has the side benefit of paying you cash for using it (or other perks). Another option for a "wealthy dude" is to put up non-cash assets as collateral for the loan. Surely, a "wealthy dude" has non-cash assets?


Is it possible to buy something from yourself and then pay off the money so that you can get a 5% cash back, and still keep the money?
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Originally Posted By: Geneforgeisformeyukkyu
Is it possible to buy something from yourself and then pay off the money so that you can get a 5% cash back, and still keep the money?


That would probably qualify as fraud, but even if you could do it then it probably wouldn't net much money, since banks usually charge a 2-3% fee of the total sum of a transaction if it's by check or credit card.
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Originally Posted By: Soul of Wit
A "wealthy dude" can afford to hire a financial advisor to assist him in creating a credit score. Using and paying off a credit card every month is one way. It has the side benefit of paying you cash for using it (or other perks). Another option for a "wealthy dude" is to put up non-cash assets as collateral for the loan. Surely, a "wealthy dude" has non-cash assets?


I suppose he could have done the former. He does have friends in the financial sector with said experience. He ended up going with the latter, however. His loan came from a previous employer, and he used some stock options as collateral. :::shrug::: smile
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We are getting into some serious topic drift here...

 

Anyway, having had some time to observe the problem of backwards compatibility from the many perspectives, we all should take note that there is almost nothing in it for Apple or your favorite software developer to keep backwards compatibility beyond a certain time frame. Some examples:

 

From the developers' perspective -- Sometimes Apple introduces some new feature that makes life much easier for the software developer. However it is only on the last two major OS's. The software developer is then looking at making a choice between writing two lines of code to call the new API, or spending a week or more reinventing that wheel so that 2% of his installed base can play the game. There are usually several such. Is it worth your time to add another month or two to your schedule in order to service that 2%?

 

Another from the developer's perspective -- lets say that MacOS X.4 (Tiger) has a really annoying bug that causes your game to go haywire in a way that is difficult to track down. And as is typical you no longer have a machine that will boot on the Tiger (X.4.0) install CD, so you can't reproduce it. Are you really going to go buy a system on e-bay to support these users?

 

From the OS providers' perspective -- it is a lot of work at times to support diverse hardware. For example while we were on PowerPC, you often ended up writing high performance OS code twice, once for G4/G5 and once for G3, which didn't have AltiVec. Likewise, you can get into similar situations for DX9 vs. DX10 vs. DX11 compatible GPUs on OpenGL, etc. Instead of using a single core piece of code that everyone runs, you now have a rats nest of code designed to handle every possible situation on a wide variety of GPUs. After beating your head on that for a while you really begin to dream of the day when you can finally retire "bad idea X" hardware and no longer have to deal with the associated headaches.

 

From the OS providers' perspective -- Microsoft has a big problem of too much backwards compatibility. They have to compete with the Microsoft of 10 years ago (WinXP) in order to get new sales, and quiet frankly they aren't doing that well. If the customer really wants WinXP, it is hard to convince him that Win7 is more compatible with WinXP than WinXP was. You eventually convince yourself that you can't actually fix bugs because the fix might break someone depending on the bug. At that point, your OS stagnates and you have trouble delivering new stuff. You pre-announce a whole pile of new features to get people excited. Then you go implement them, discover that it breaks must-not-break-apps X,Y,Z. Then in despair you pull the feature. At the end of the day, you over-promise (longhorn) and under deliver (vista) and nobody is happy.

 

In any case, if you are depending on Dad to give you a hand-me-down computer so you can avoid falling off the OS bandwagon, then don't whine about how poor you are. You should be busy convincing Dad that the latest and greatest mac is the best thing ever and he really needs one! It is his birthday soon. Maybe Mom should get him one. I'll show you just the one. Or maybe it's Mom's birthday soon and she really wanted that MacBook Air. Chances are, no matter whose birthday it is, it is you who will be getting the present -- a nice NEWER hand-me-down computer! You'll need it for college anyway, I'm sure.

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