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Fighting Redbeard (spoilers, obviously)

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Am I missing something? This seems like the most boring fight in computer game history. Three freakin' hours... on Normal. Presumably it takes a week on Hard, and if you try it on Torment you need to worry about whether or not you're going to be able to finish it before the heat death of the universe.

 

You find the switch, open the room to south, go in, and take out the two sentinels. Who can basically only be damaged by Nathalie (and a little bit by Shima's razordisks) and are completely immune to wands, scrolls, anything Jenelle can do, etc. And who regen a round or two after they're killed.

 

Redbeard can only be significantly damaged when both sentinels are dead (you can chip away at him for 5-15 points per hit when one sentinel is dead).

 

So, basically, you spend four rounds killing sentinels (figuring Nathalie's misses and her speed rounds about cancel out), then you get one round where you can pound on Redbeard. Assuming you're not dazed or terrified, which you probably are. About half the time your best fighters are out for whatever reason and you waste much of your one round of opportunity.

 

Of course, the above also assumes that you can get Nathalie and Shima on the two squares where you can actually see both sentinels. But, since Redbeard does both fear and knockback, you probably can't, so you'll end up wasting more rounds maneuvering Nathalie and Shima into position. So, it's really more like one round in twelve or fifteen that I was getting a decent attack in on Redbeard.

 

Now I do know that I seriously screwed up by putting all of Nathalie's stat points into Int and End, which meant that she was the last party member to act every round. She actually needs the highest Dex so that she can go first and the rest of the party can act after she kills the last sentinel and before they regen. However, fixing that means going back to a save prior to the final Bereza Woods sequence... which would take as much (though not really more) time as fighting Redbeard with her acting last.

 

Is there something else I'm doing wrong? Some aspect of strategy that's not occurring to me that would make this battle epically challenging rather than epically boring? Or is it actually supposed to take hours and hours and make you want to slit your wrists? (And, just to be clear -- my complaints isn't that it's too hard, my complaint is that it's too long.)

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First thing you missed is there are two rooms which each have those bladewarded sentinels. So you need to station characters in each room. This is why a singleton game is probably impossible.

 

I've done it on torment and it doesn't take more than an hour.

 

I found a sorceresses with battle frenzy, which is why you save speed potions and elixirs, can take a sentinel out in two or three rounds with misses. A shadowwalker or blademaster which has been dedicated to missile attacks is almost as good.

 

Keeping Redbeard busy is also important so keep summoning pets even if they can't hit. Use missile attacks and give everyone recuperation crystals and scarabs to remove mental effects to deal with terror. Even with all this you will probably burn through all your resurrection scrolls.

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
First thing you missed is there are two rooms which each have those bladewarded sentinels. So you need to station characters in each room.


So, there's four sentinels total?

Originally Posted By: Randomizer
I found a sorceresses with battle frenzy, which is why you save speed potions and elixirs, can take a sentinel out in two or three rounds with misses. A shadowwalker or blademaster which has been dedicated to missile attacks is almost as good.


I'm with you on the sorceress. But I found it was more like 3-4 with the shadowwalker and, for some reason, even with maxed archery stats, my blademaster's missile attacks just weren't doing significant damage.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Keeping Redbeard busy is also important so keep summoning pets even if they can't hit.


Yup, did that. Those summoning wands are super nice for this since you can use them and still do something else.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Use missile attacks and give everyone recuperation crystals and scarabs to remove mental effects to deal with terror. Even with all this you will probably burn through all your resurrection scrolls.


That wasn't too tough to do when I thought there was only one room of sentinels and I could keep everybody clustered in range of recuperation crystals. With splitting the party, though, seems like it would be pretty easy to get everybody in one room stunned or terrored.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer
This is why a singleton game is probably impossible.


With four sentinels to deal with, it would seem that this fight is basically unwinnable (or rather, way too annoying to bother with) if you either A) don't have all four of your companions or B) have a shaman as your primary character.

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I believe that is how Jeff intends it—the typical player's game will not end with Redbeard dying, and I also believe he's supposed to be back for Avadon 2. So yeah, you pretty much need 4-5 PCs to do it, patience, skills, and have 1-2 PCs stationed in each sentinel chamber to deal with them as they appear.

 

-S-

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Originally Posted By: Synergy
I believe that is how Jeff intends it—the typical player's game will not end with Redbeard dying, and I also believe he's supposed to be back for Avadon 2. So yeah, you pretty much need 4-5 PCs to do it, patience, skills, and have 1-2 PCs stationed in each sentinel chamber to deal with them as they appear.


I don't have a problem with that conceptually. I'd just prefer that Jeff make it slaughteringly hard. The whole "you can't hurt Redbeard and he can't hurt you either" dynamic I ended up was kinda like storming the front gate of Formello in Avernum 6... except not as fun.

What I do have a problem with is that, if you choose the wrong character when you first start the game, this fight is unwinnable (because you need four non-shaman characters to fight the sentinel). Having to do all four loyalty quests isn't that big an issue, because anybody who's a good enough player to take on Redbeard should be experienced enough to figure out that they need to do that or they're setting themselves up for some big pain later. But there's no warning that choosing a shaman makes this fight unbeatable and no reason to expect it.

As noted above, that wasn't my problem -- I played a blademaster. My problem was that I only noticed one of the two hidden switches (that's a different rant, not just related to the endgame). But if I had played a shaman, I think I would probably want to punch Jeff in the face about now.

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Having two shaman in a party of five at the end might not be as much a deal-breaker as you're thinking, if the rest of your party is well-trained and equipped, assuming it's not on Torment.

 

The Redbeard fight is incredibly frustrating if you have more than 1-2 sentinels alive to buffer him. It nearly drove me crazy on my first attempts, before I realized there was a second chamber with two more sentinels. Even then, it's a bit of a grind to get through. Considering some of the epic end game fights in the early Avenrnum games, this was rather anti-climactic for me, but as Jeff pointed out when I mentioned it, this is the first in a series, and it's not meant to be a colossal battle at the end of this first episode.

 

-S-

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Incidentally, there is text in the ending if you defeat Redbeard alone. I seriously wonder if anyone will ever be able to pull that off, even with cheat codes.

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I found the final battle very frustrating, but also extremely satisfying when I finally finished it, reloading twice for a total of 3 hours on Hard. I used the strategies employed above (never used a major aid wand until this fight!) except with a couple of additions:

 

- Natalie is obviously the key to the fight, so I fed her recovery potions constantly to keep the ice bolts and fire storms coming along.

 

- Kept Natalie in one room because firestorms could reach the sentinels in the other room, greatly assisting my blademaster archer (forget his name, he was only in my party for his special mission and to retrain him lol) in taking down the sentinels in the other room.

 

I can see a singleton winning this fight, but perhaps only with the sorceress.

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I tried with a sorceress and shadowwalker singleton on torment and neither made it to the point where you go into a soul jar room. Both just took too much damage when they were terrified in spite of all their mental resistance. frown

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Originally Posted By: Synergy
I believe that is how Jeff intends it—the typical player's game will not end with Redbeard dying, and I also believe he's supposed to be back for Avadon 2.


I hope Av2 is at least significantly (preferably overwhelmingly) larger than part 1.

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I seem to be the only one who noticed both secret switches the first time, but assumed you could only have three characters in your party like usual. The fight is straight-up unwinnable on hard with the PC and only two others.

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Originally Posted By: Fflewddur Fflam: Keeper of Olya


I hope Av2 is at least significantly (preferably overwhelmingly) larger than part 1.


No, Av2 just isn't gonna cut it, I still read it as avernum

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Originally Posted By: Erasmus
Originally Posted By: Fflewddur Fflam: Keeper of Olya


I hope Av2 is at least significantly (preferably overwhelmingly) larger than part 1.


No, Av2 just isn't gonna cut it, I still read it as avernum


You'll learn.

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While I'm not Jeff, I suspect Avadon 2 will be larger. Jeff had to invest much effort in making the new engine, procuring graphics, writing the world, etc. Now that the foundation is laid, there should, in principle, be more time for content in the sequel.

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And let's remember that second games tend to go well for Jeff: E/A 2 is generally considered the best of the series, and G2 is one of the more favorably viewed Geneforge games overall.

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In the instruction pdf appendix A, Jeff said:

 

The skill points are a little tight. In Avadon 2, I will give the player a few more to spend.

 

This implies more levels and more to do to get the levels. I want to explore Corruption.

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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
And let's remember that second games tend to go well for Jeff: E/A 2 is generally considered the best of the series, and G2 is one of the more favorably viewed Geneforge games overall.


I don't know how many times I have to tell you people that I am of the strong opinion that Geneforge 2 was Jeff's masterpiece. Maybe we should poll it.

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Originally Posted By: Fflewddur Fflam: Keeper of Olya
Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
And let's remember that second games tend to go well for Jeff: E/A 2 is generally considered the best of the series, and G2 is one of the more favorably viewed Geneforge games overall.


I don't know how many times I have to tell you people that I am of the strong opinion that Geneforge 2 was Jeff's masterpiece. Maybe we should poll it.


People have done "your favorite Geneforge" polls, and it's wound up as G1 by a healthy margin most of the time. I don't think I've ever seen "favorite SW" polls that didn't differentiate by series and had all of the games in one huge poll, though, so maybe one of those would be in order.

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There have been a number of different "favorite SW game" and "favorite game within SW series X" discussions and polls over the years. My statement was based on my overall assessment of all of those.

 

In terms of comparing games across series, or just comparing series, that oscillates between Avernum and Geneforge depending on the board populaton at the time. Just following the release of a new game in either series, the balance would tip to that series. Nethergate generally does poorly simply due to lack of exposure; it gets very high ratings from those who have played it. Similarly, BoA's ratings are all over the place, but it never places well due to lack of exposure. Once upon a time, when the Blades Community was much larger, BoE won everything, but that was long ago, and now it too does poorly due to lack of exposure.

 

In terms of the Exile and Avernum series (excluding Blades), X2 is the strong winner, and A4 is the loser. Feelings about the others vary, with A5 and A6 usually being in the middle. Of note is that E3 is nearly as popular as E2, while A3 is one of the least popular games.

 

For Geneforge, individual opinions vary more widely than for Avernum, but the shakeout from polls and averages tends to adhere closely to a ranking of: G1; G2 and G4 in some order; G5; G3.

 

I would argue, however, that now is the *wrong* time for a "favorite SW" poll. Many people are in the middle of Avadon, or have just finished it. I think it's helpful for a little bit of time to pass, so people's opinions can settle, and are not unduly influenced by "omg this new game NEW!!1!!"

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Avernum 3 was the first game I played and bought from Spiderweb, and remains my overall favorite experience. I liked the combination of underworld and surface world, the legendary items quests with the creepy and challenging experiences of places like the pit where you get the Fury Crossbow and the tower where you find the Ring of Endless Magery. It all felt so vast and epic and pressing.

 

Someone's best experience of a gaming world or series probably has to do with the first exposure, newness and excitement of the experience. It's hard to top the first experience of discovering the whole Avernum universe.

 

-S-

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The thing is, with Jeff constantly improving the mechanics, it's hard to compare earlier to later editions. Were A5 and A6 the best games in the Avernum series? In many senses, maybe not; but ever since A5 came out, I can't stand to play the earlier games where you have to balance inventory weight against encumbrance.

 

Now that Avadon is out, it's again going to be hard to go back. There are several things I absolutely loath about the Avadon UI, but who wants to play a game without a junk bag? Or where your mages can never cast any of their cool spells except in the more dire of circumstances because they're always running out of power points?

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Nethergate generally does poorly simply due to lack of exposure; it gets very high ratings from those who have played it.

 

I wanted very badly to like Nethergate, but I think I bought it too late. The game engine was a little old when I tried it. As Fael said -- the older inventory systems worked even a decade ago, but now they render a game unplayable. What used to be par for the course seems unbearably cumbersome now.

 

I love the most recent geneforge and avernum engine/mechanics, but I wonder how difficult it would be to integrate the junk bag? That junk bag might just have become something I can't live without!

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Indeed. This is one of the reasons I haven't finished G1: compared to more recent Spiderweb games, the interface is really clunky. Though it's not entirely a linear progression: I think the inventory/encumbrance system in the earlier (G1-3) Geneforge games is actually a step backward from that of the early Avernums. It's not that 'absolute maximum carrying capacity' is better than 'weight above a certain threshold reduces AP,' but the limit for the former tends to be higher than for the latter, and it's designed around 4-5 characters, instead of one. Managing encumbrance in G1-3 is a real chore (less so in A4, unless you play a singleton), and I vastly prefer the G4-and on encumbrance system.

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Apparently, Jeff's next release is going to be a rewrite of Avernum 1. Again. It will be interesting to see what he does with the skill system. However, implementing UI and gameplay improvements like the junk bag is a no-brainer.

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Originally Posted By: Synergy
Someone's best experience of a gaming world or series probably has to do with the first exposure, newness and excitement of the experience. It's hard to top the first experience of discovering the whole Avernum universe.


The first Spiderweb game I played was Exile 2, and Avernum 2 is probably my second favourite Spiderweb title. I know that there are several diehard Exile fans here, but I personally preferred Avernum more overall (though I do miss some things unique to Exile).

The only game that was able to surpass X2 for me was Nethergate. I still haven't played through Nethergate: Resurrection (although I did buy it) since I really liked the level-less system of the original. My love of Nethergate is likely influenced by my interest in ancient cultures/mythology. I believe Jeff once stated that the perceived "educational" value of Nethergate is why failed to be successful, but that was a definite plus for me.

The way dialogue works in Avadon is almost reminiscent of the way the two stories interacted in Nethergate, although Avadon is a much more complicated system overall since player choice influences the dialogue much more in Avadon.


My advice to anyone having issues with the interface of Avernum or Nethergate (or any of the Exiles) is to get in the habit of using the journal any time someone gives you something resembling a quest. Really, the lack of a quest log is the biggest issue for me, since I'll sometimes take breaks from a game for months at a time. The other irritations I can live with.

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Whoa - the final fight was such a huge disappointment for me. I still haven´t finished it. Due to my earlier decisions (being a good Hand) I did not kill the bandit or the Holklandan´s clan people, so Shima and Sevilin did not join me in the final battle. I played as a shaman, so never used Jenna except for the quest when I was forced to do. She hardly had any items on her, no potions, scrolls etc. But I had helped her people, as well as Natalie´s dragon hunt.

 

So, I wound up with an All Girls Party - great. The boys had run off with the good stuff, without a warning. At least this should be changed.

 

Redbeard was too hard to kill with those three.

 

Very disappointing.

 

Otherwise, it is a great game, one of the best I ever played from Spiderweb (and I have played every game since Exile 3). I got so sucked into the story, I had a hard time going to bed at night, and neglected my studies during daytime.

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Jeff did change it so you can at least go back downstairs and use the forge to add runestones to your equipment, but not having access to the inventories does hurt.

 

It's not so much that they aren't able to attack Redbeard, it's that shamans have the worst attacks versus the soul jars since only their physical attacks really do damage. This makes Nathalie the one to do that part so Redbeard will take less damage and the fight will take much longer.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door.

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I, too reached Redbeard without Shima. Also, my characters were only level 27. I was forced into the embarrassing situation of tugging my forelock to the bigman after bursting in all hopped up for a scrap. I felt like I could have won the fight eventually, but it would have taken too many reloads. It makes sense, right? If I was REALLY the guy who could take down Redbeard, I would have been less loyal to the Pact (Redbeard's baby), and disdainful of the Holklandan's importance to it, and thus able to take out Shigaz, and win Shima's personal loyalty.

 

I went back to the Shima mission (Monitor Shigaz?), but decided it was a dumb idea - my character was too squeaky clean to do the job. I've gone back to pre-wayward friends. I'm reading the text more closely, I'm exploring more completely, I'm being less loyal eg. The Wayfarer. Although I am unsure about the way the relationship works between him and Miranda. See what happens.

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Originally Posted By: FnordCola
I seem to be the only one who noticed both secret switches the first time, but assumed you could only have three characters in your party like usual. The fight is straight-up unwinnable on hard with the PC and only two others.


Um. I just got my ass kicked on Hard w/ a Shaman + Sevelin + Nathalie. I'm really hoping this is true, about getting to use all 4 other characters! Though I'm afraid that Shima & Jenell aren't equipped too well...

If this isn't true, I'm not sure I'm up for another try at this fight. For a game that wants to push you to fight Redbeard, it sure seems like a near impossibility to accomplish that. I'll sleep on it and try again tomorrow.

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It's true. I've done it by now, it just didn't occur to me the first time. You just accept help from all of them; the one major caveat is that they'll only help you if you sided with them on their respective sidequests. You do get the change to mess around with their equipment, though as far as I know you're restricted to whatever items you have on your characters/second floor Avadon, and I don't know of any way to rearrange scarabs. Wasn't that much of a problem for me, though, since the game kept going on about how it was a good idea to keep all the characters' equipment up to date.

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You can go back to the main floor after getting the others to join to retrieve items and use the forge to add runestones. This is also a chance to rearrange scarabs.

 

If you have a strong enough main character, you can loot the training barracks for some potions. Or go downstairs to Nicodemus's private forge to kill the bound infernals.

 

You can't buy anything more.

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Originally Posted By: BenS
Originally Posted By: FnordCola
I seem to be the only one who noticed both secret switches the first time, but assumed you could only have three characters in your party like usual. The fight is straight-up unwinnable on hard with the PC and only two others.


Um. I just got my ass kicked on Hard w/ a Shaman + Sevelin + Nathalie. I'm really hoping this is true, about getting to use all 4 other characters! Though I'm afraid that Shima & Jenell aren't equipped too well...

If this isn't true, I'm not sure I'm up for another try at this fight. For a game that wants to push you to fight Redbeard, it sure seems like a near impossibility to accomplish that. I'll sleep on it and try again tomorrow.


I stored items in my room in Avadon instead of on the characters when I tried the game. Also I suspect that their inventory contents are placed into the dressers in their rooms when you return to the fortress. I have not played much though...

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Well, there's a couple hours of my life that I'll never get back. I still lost, even w/ 5 characters, though I had him at pretty low health. That was so incredibly frustrating that I'm not sure I'm up to try it again.

 

Had I designed this game, I would have made 2 changes to that final fight. One, a reward from beating Zephyrine that directly helped me in the fight against Redbeard. Two, in a similar vein, for siding w/ the rebels, Heart Miranda would have disabled 1 of the 4 soul pillar platforms, so at most I'd be dealing w/ 3 of them, instead of 4. Trying to take out Redbeard shouldn't be so demoralizing that it ruins the game for you.

 

Also, the way the meeting w/ the 4 NPCs is done, most people would never guess they could use them all--when that was impossible for the full game. That needs to be waaay clearer!

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Well, there's a couple hours of my life that I'll never get back.

 

Yes, I actually never finished the final fight on my second runthrough. (On my first runthrough, I went loyalist, so it wasn't an issue.)

 

Not because it was too hard: I think I could have won. (This was only on hard, not on torment.) I had redbeard more than halfway down, and still had a handful of res scrolls and group heals and mass frenzies. But because it wasn't fun, and I realized I'd have to sink another huge bit of time in to finish.

 

I need to think more carefully about what makes a fight fun for me, but I do like a challenge. I don't want an *easier* fight.

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Originally Posted By: jlsgaladriel
Well, there's a couple hours of my life that I'll never get back.

Yes, I actually never finished the final fight on my second runthrough. (On my first runthrough, I went loyalist, so it wasn't an issue.)

Not because it was too hard: I think I could have won. (This was only on hard, not on torment.) I had redbeard more than halfway down, and still had a handful of res scrolls and group heals and mass frenzies. But because it wasn't fun, and I realized I'd have to sink another huge bit of time in to finish.

I need to think more carefully about what makes a fight fun for me, but I do like a challenge. I don't want an *easier* fight.


Seems like you and I had the same experience. I played the 1st time through as a loyalist, but never got a chance to fight Beloch & Zephyrine w/out redoing too much of the end sections. So I tried again, still on Hard, beat them, and then went for Redbeard as a rebellious Hand. I had him pretty close, but ran out of resources, and at that point, the fight had taken way too long to want to attempt it again. And I lost my last character.

My worry is that this fight is indeed too hard and/or long for most people (*) who will play this game. I've played every post-Exile game SW has ever done, and never had this kind of experience. It reminded me of those optional boss fights found in certain JPRPG's, for the hard-core types only. I know I could try it on "Normal", but at this point, my heart's not into doing it again a 3rd time. I'll just take the suboptimal ending (rebelled to a point but accepted a lowly post rather than openly challenging Redbeard) and be done w/ it.

(*) My guess is a large proportion of those who succeeded at this are regular posters on these boards. That is, not a true demographic for the silent majority that play these games.

Finally, you might not have beaten him either. His attacks, and those of his Soul Jars, seemed to get stronger as he got down to the lowest health levels. It was a war of attrition & resources I just couldn't deal w/. I think it was unfair for Jeff to gimp the Shamans (and I had 2) against the Soul Jars.

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Wait, the complaint is that the optional super-boss is too hard when you're playing on Hard? *blinks*

 

No, see, that's not it. I would have gladly thrown myself against him and died twelve times to learn the fight, if needed, in the time it takes to bring him down. That's why I said I don't want an *easier* fight. It's just that I don't want a tedious one.

 

Although I'm having trouble putting my finger on what makes this particular boss fight tedious rather than challenging for me. Some of it's just about the length of the thing, I think. But I don't think it's reducible just to length. I like to feel as if I've beaten a boss because of my clever strategy, or excellent skills, not just because I've worn him down over the course of an hour.

 

Did most people enjoy that fight? What did you enjoy about it?

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Well, "too hard" was mentioned in the post above, which is what I was responding too.

 

But it sounds like the real complaint is that it's too long and the tactics you have to employ during the fight are themselves not interesting enough, or at least not interesting enough given the length of time you use them. Repetitive. Is that right?

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Until you figure out how to deal with the soul jars, this fight drags on because Redbeard heals himself twice and takes reduced damage up to immune. Then the charm and terrify abilities mean that you need plenty of recuperation crystals and other means of removing mental statuses.

 

Otherwise all you do is hack at him and try to stay healthy.

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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
But it sounds like the real complaint is that it's too long and the tactics you have to employ during the fight are themselves not interesting enough, or at least not interesting enough given the length of time you use them. Repetitive. Is that right?


Yes!

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Quote:
But it sounds like the real complaint is that it's too long and the tactics you have to employ during the fight are themselves not interesting enough, or at least not interesting enough given the length of time you use them. Repetitive. Is that right?


Exactly, Slarty.

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Here's a question:

 

What CRPGs can you think of that actually have interesting final boss fights? (Or secret challenge boss fights, or whatever)

 

Of the top of my head, I can't think of very many at all. I can think of:

— Malroth (Dragon Warrior II)

— Garzahd (Exile II -- because of Mindduel, so not Avernum II)

— Dragoth (Dungeon Master II -- although this was harrowing)

 

Redbeard at least is better than the generic, beat-me-by-doing-what-you've-been-doing-all-game-you-just-need-higher-stats final boss. In fact I think most SW games are better than average in this regard.

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Hmmm, for party-based boss fights, I'd point to WoW as having created a large number of unique bosses. I haven't played in the most recent expansions, but Kara had good fights from beginning (Attuman: meat shield in front, everyone else behind... NOW off-tank, gather him in!) through the maddening-but-ever-different Moroes, to the Prince at the end.

 

As to rpgs, I'd say the final fight in NWN2 is fun (although I hate the roomsful of trash mobs on the way to that fight.) I'm not sure it counts as an rpg, but the final boss in HOMM V is very interesting, I think partially because one fights him with different heroes who've been developed with vastly different skills, so one needs to win a similar battle four times in very different ways -- and those ways are tied to the skill choices one has made throughout the campaign.

 

In both of those games one ends up fighting, at least partially, someone whom the player has designed and used, so that one's skills at character building come back to roost. MAN, this boss is hard... I did this, I made this crazy kick-butt boss!

 

I've also generally liked Spiderweb bosses, not only the end bosses, but especially the fun side areas like the monastery or -- heck, it's been too long since I've played older sw games, was it Geneforge 4 that had a completely optional side-island with a monastery-like bunch of bosses? I loved those boss-filled extra-hard areas Jeff used to put in. Likewise, in Avadon, I was satisfied with the Beloch battle, for example -- I'd certainly do that again.

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Originally Posted By: jlsgaladriel


As to rpgs, I'd say the final fight in NWN2 is fun (although I hate the roomsful of trash mobs on the way to that fight.)




Yeah, that fight was pretty cool.


But I agree with Slarty, Spidweb games are better than most. I suspect it's the turn-based combat that allows for more creativity.

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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
What CRPGs can you think of that actually have interesting final boss fights?


I was quite fond of the final fight in Avernum 6. A5 was fun too, if you did it in the intended order -- clearing out all the areas of the fortress other than the ones used for those fight, then going in to meet Dorikas through the correct entrance and following him as he retreats, fighting each of the encounters in order (and without having killed any of the monsters involved earlier). Fun, but almost impossible to do on your first play through -- you really have to know how the fortress is laid out and how the fight is supposed to go to experience it properly.

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Castle of the Winds is mostly a rogue like game, but the final boss battle with Surtur is different from the rest of the game. The last level requires some planning to make it through the fight and win.

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