The Bard's Sanctum

[Txgangsta]

What happens when a god dies, say like Morgoth? Do their spirits reincarnate somehow?

[Tracer Bullet]

The Last Battle will see the return of Morgoth and Sauron, and therefore probably the Balrogs as well.

[Alorael at Large]

Morgoth doesn't actually die. He gets bodily thrust through the Door of Night into the void outside the world.

 

—Alorael, who is pretty sure that while Morgoth's return is guaranteed, Sauron and the balrogs get no such assurances for the Last Battle.

[Diex45]

On the note of the Balrog i thought that at the time their was more then one on Middle earth just that one of them was awoken and very very upset. Also i thought goblins where the corrupted decedents of Elves not Orcs but i could be wrong.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Codec Seraphinianus

—Alorael, who thinks this all may miss the point a bit. The question is whether Tolkien plagiarized.

Plagiarism or no, Tolkien definitely borrowed a lot of ideas.

Quote:

Orcs may be elves, or at least their corrupted descendants. Tolkien was never quite decisive about that.

The Silmarillion hints that Morgoth corrupted a group of Elves to make the Orcs. Also, Treebeard mentions that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves. As to who made them or how, the story isn't clear.

Quote:

—Alorael, who also isn't sure that J.R.R. himself ever described the metaphysics of Ents or Orcs. He's not even positive that Dwarves got a definitive afterlife, although he is fairly sure that at least one of them is reborn several times.

If Orcs are descended from Elves, then they too would go to the Halls of Mandos; however, I think the Orcs would remain there and not be reincarnated. (This is all speculation on my part.)

Tolkien isn't clear on whether Ents are immortal or not. They can be killed, but they seem to be immune to death by "natural causes."

Dwarves, I think, are technically mortal. However, Tolkien says that they believe the seven ancestors of their race (the seven Fathers of the Dwarves) are reincarnated.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Lifecrafter_lost_in_the_world

On the note of the Balrog i thought that at the time their was more then one on Middle earth just that one of them was awoken and very very upset. Also i thought goblins where the corrupted decedents of Elves not Orcs but i could be wrong.

There are multiple Balrogs (which, I now realize, should be capitalized). Only one appears in LotR, but I don't think it's the only one left. On the other hand, other Balrogs probably would join Sauron, and he doesn't seem to employ any, so who knows?

Goblins and Orcs are the same race in Middle-Earth. The former name is used in The Hobbit and the latter in LotR.

Tolkien borrowed many ideas and documented the borrowing. He didn't mention Wagner, though, either because he didn't knowingly take ideas, he didn't actually take any ideas, or he just didn't feel like attributing. Maybe the first is the most likely.

Dwarves are definitely mortal, but the Gift of Men seems to apply only to actual Men (and, maybe, Hobbits). Looking a little deeper, it seems that there's some indication that Aule asked Mandos to set aside a portion of his Halls for the Dwarves. That would permit both reincarnation, like elves, and permanent death. It's still not clear to me that Tolkien himself was clear on what happens to them.

—Alorael, who has determined that Tolkien believed that blind faith was good for the soul and therefore left his cosmological and theological details of his world a bit hazy.

[Trenton.]

how do you know theres multiple if there is only one in the movie? im sure i never saw a differant one

[othersean]

Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha

how do you know theres multiple if there is only one in the movie? im sure i never saw a differant one

I really hope you're trolling here. If not, I suggest you read the Silmarillion.

[Diex45]

If i am not mistaken i think it was mentioned in the book that the Balrog they fought was one of many and that it was just awake and very very upset.

[Randomizer]

The Silmarrilion mentions that there were several Balrogs. The one in the LotR escaped when Morgoth was captured and fled to sleep in the depths of Moria until the dwarves awoke it.

[Diex45]

Hm okay could swore somebody in the book mention it but its been a while since i last read the books lol i need to find them and read them over again lol

[Trenton.]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

The Silmarrilion mentions that there were several Balrogs. The one in the LotR escaped when Morgoth was captured and fled to sleep in the depths of Moria until the dwarves awoke it.

didnt the dwarves leave many years ago before the fellowship of the ring went IN to the mines of moria? so the balrog didnt JUST wake.

[Randomizer]

The Balrog, called Durin's Bane by the dwarves for killing Durin VI, was the reason the dwarves fled Moria. They were the ones that woke it.

[Trenton.]

and its been awake and wandering the mines and wondering ever since?

[Diex45]

Till the Fellowship Stumbled upon it yes it was also im torn cause im not sure if the Balrog encounter was the climax of the first book i mean the only other one could be the big battle at the river where the fellowship gets betrayed hmmm any thoughts guys?

[Alorael at Large]

I'd say the Breaking of the Fellowship is the climax, and it's certainly the ending. Really, Tolkien didn't intend for the work to be a trilogy. The work is divided into six books, and it was intended by Tolkien to appear as a single volume.

 

—Alorael, who really doesn't think that describing the climax of the first third of a work is especially meaningful. There are more and less exciting parts. Leave it at that.

[Slawbug]

Climax, no, but it would be reasonable to call the Balrog encounter the major turning point of book two (of six). Arguably, it is the major turning point of FOTR (the first novel, comprising the first two books), since everything up till then has been organized and aided by Gandalf, and since the Balrog encounter also begins the sundering of the Fellowship that is completed at the book's end.

 

I would argue that the real climax is a few paragraphs before the breaking of the Fellowship, when Frodo, on the summit of Amon Hen, is torn between the Voice and the Eye.

[Diex45]

True True but i was just wondering and never knew it was meant to be six books hm learn someting new everyday.

[Alorael at Large]

Actually, it is six books and, as far as I know, always has been. Sometimes a single physical volume is subdivided into several books. LotR is one of those, but many people ignore those divisions. It just amounts to a new title page in the middle of the novel.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the climax should probably be refined down to a single word. He's hoping it's an preposition, or maybe an article!

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Carington x2

—Alorael, who thinks the climax should probably be refined down to a single word. He's hoping it's an preposition, or maybe an article!

Probabilistically speaking, it's "the".

[A less presumptuous name.]

To be specific, it's the "h" within the word "the." Surprisingly, the "h" is more climactic than the "t." If you question this, your brain will melt. You have been warned.

[Trenton.]

what? how at all would the word "the" be exciting? and the T would be more climatic!

[Tracer Bullet]

Originally Posted By: Lifecrafter_lost_in_the_world

Hm okay could swore somebody in the book mention it but its been a while since i last read the books lol i need to find them and read them over again lol

Indeed. A sentiment that the rest of you might appreciate sharing. Yes, Dikiyoba, Balrog is capitalized. Yes, there are many. Yes, Durin's Bane drove the dwarves (the plural of dwarf is actually dwarrows) from Khazad Dum, which earned the name of Moria (Black pit). Any more issues?

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha

what? how at all would the word "the" be exciting? and the T would be more climatic!

Of all letters in the English language, "the" appears with the greatest frequency- approximately 1/19th of the time, if Wolfram Alpha is to be believed.


Hence, if I selected a random word from anywhere, it would be more likely to be "the" than any other word.

Edit: 1/16th, not 1/19th. My bad.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Sage of Numenor

Yes, Dikiyoba, Balrog is capitalized.

Dikiyoba hasn't talked about Balrogs, capitalized or not, at all in this thread.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

Of all letters in the English language, "the" appears with the greatest frequency- approximately 1/19th of the time, if Wolfram Alpha is to be believed.

Wolfram Alpha never lies.

Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha

what? how at all would the word "the" be exciting? and the T would be more climatic!

The letter "t" by itself is so common that it is boring. However, the letter "h" modifies the letter "t" in such a way as to produce a novel sound. Therefore, the "h" is more exciting.

[infinity11]

Thanks for the info.

[Tracer Bullet]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Demigod is probably the simplest comparison. Basically, in Tolkien's world, you have

THE VALAR (gods)

THE MAIAR (powerful immortal beings)

QUASI-IMMORTAL RACES (elves, etc.)
MORTAL RACES (men, etc.)


I'm not entirely sure if other races (dwarves, hobbits, ents, orcs, etc.) go into the elf category or the man category, particularly those races of unusual origin (dwarves, orcs, etc.)

As Alorael mentioned, there is a somewhat deistic creator God figure, Iluvatar or Eru, who stands above the Valar, but basically doesn't figure into anything after creation.

Each and every Maia (I think) is associated with a particular one of the Valar. Gandalf, Sauron, and Saruman apparently all served Aule, at least originally. The Balrogs were Maiar in the service of Melkor (aka Morgoth).

The Dwarves are mortal. The Hobbits are mortal. The Ents are immeasurably long-lived, and probably immortal.

The chief of the Balrogs was Gothmog.
The Istari were as follows: Saruman, Radagast, Gandalf. There were two unnamed Wizards as well.
Olorin (later Gandalf) spent most of his time in Lorien.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Fflewddur Fflam son of Godo

The Dwarves are mortal. The Hobbits are mortal. The Ents are immeasurably long-lived, and probably immortal.

Citations please? Mostly because I am interested. These seem like safe assumptions indeed, but is there any evidence behind them, or are they just assumptions?

Quote:

Olorin (later Gandalf) spent most of his time in Lorien.

Citation please? He did keep close counsel with Galadriel, but I always remember Gandalf having been described as an eternally restless traveller.

[Tracer Bullet]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Originally Posted By: Fflewddur Fflam son of Godo

The Dwarves are mortal. The Hobbits are mortal. The Ents are immeasurably long-lived, and probably immortal.

Citations please? Mostly because I am interested. These seem like safe assumptions indeed, but is there any evidence behind them, or are they just assumptions?

Quote:

Olorin (later Gandalf) spent most of his time in Lorien.

Citation please? He did keep close counsel with Galadriel, but I always remember Gandalf having been described as an eternally restless traveller.

Lorien as in the Lorien that Lothlorien was named after.

I don't have a book with me, but here is a list of where I remember reading these things.

The Dwarves are mortal. Read the chapter in the Silmarillion on the creation of the Dwarves
The Hobbits are mortal. The oldest Hobbit know to record before Bilbo lived to 130.
The Ents I believe to be immortal simply because Treebeard says that he remembers the advent of many old things, somewhere in the Two Towers.

[Diex45]

What about Tom bombile (i can not spell his last name) Where does he fit in all this i mean you only hear about him for a little bit in the first book and then after that he is never spoken of or heard from again which i found odd cause i liked him but i wonder What the heck is he!

[Slawbug]

Given everything Tom Bombadil says, it's probably a safe bet that he's a Maia.

 

Lorien: Doh. Right.

 

On further research, even though I usually see Gandalf referred to as a Maia of Aule, different sites claim his primary Vala to be either Aule, or Irmo, or Nienna, or Manwe. Quite a selection he has there.

[Diex45]

Ah i see makes sense and all plus Gandolf gets around... wait that came out wrong..

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Fflewddur Fflam son of Godo

The Ents I believe to be immortal simply because Treebeard says that he remembers the advent of many old things, somewhere in the Two Towers.

From what I understand, Ents are, in fact, mortal. Extremely long-lived, and not subject to death from old age, but mortal nonetheless. I know they can be killed; in the Two Towers, an Ent named Beechbone is mentioned as having been burned alive during the assault on Isengard.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Given everything Tom Bombadil says, it's probably a safe bet that he's a Maia.

That seems to be the general consensus from what I've read. I own a few books on LotR, and they all place Bombadil somewhere among the Maiar.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

On further research, even though I usually see Gandalf referred to as a Maia of Aule, different sites claim his primary Vala to be either Aule, or Irmo, or Nienna, or Manwe. Quite a selection he has there.

The Silmarillion says that Gandalf dwelt in Lorien, but often went to the house of Nienna. From what I can gather, it isn't mentioned whom he serves.

Also, I looked up Sauron and Saruman in the Silmarillion. Sauron starts as a servant of Aule, but later joined Melkor (Morgoth). Saruman isn't mentioned at all except as one of the Istari, and his main actions in Middle-Earth; and like Gandalf, there's nothing to indicate whom he serves.

[Tracer Bullet]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Given everything Tom Bombadil says, it's probably a safe bet that he's a Maia.

Lorien: Doh. Right.

On further research, even though I usually see Gandalf referred to as a Maia of Aule, different sites claim his primary Vala to be either Aule, or Irmo, or Nienna, or Manwe. Quite a selection he has there.

Tom's identity is a question for the experts, who have no decisive desicion. My personal favorite theory is that Tom Bombadil (of course he has other names) is Arda incarnate.

While Olorin was a Maia of Aule, he spent most of his time in the Gardens of Lorien, where he "learned pity and wisdom".

[Trenton.]

was gandalf born a a wizard? or did he become one with training?

[Mod.]

Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha

or did he become one with training?

No. He always was one to my knowledge.

[Trenton.]

so when he was born he was a powerful wizard baby?

[Alorael at Large]

He wasn't born, exactly. As a Maia, he's one of the Ainur, the divine beings of Tolkien's mythology. He came into being fully formed, more or less. Still, he wasn't always a wizard, either; he only came to Middle-Earth as Gandalf late in life, as these things go for immortals.

 

Fflewddur, you're not quite answering the right question. It's readily apparent that Hobbits and Dwarves don't live forever, Elves do, and Ents come very close if they do have any natural lifespan. But the more pressing question for Middle-Earth is the fate of their souls post-mortem. Elves go to the Halls of Mandos. Men leave the Circles of the World for spiritual parts unknown.

 

Actually, Tolkien does come down heavily in favor of Hobbits being a type or offshoot of Men, so they're also given the Gift of Men and presumably die. Dwarves seem not to, but again, it's not clear to me how authoritative that is. I have no idea about Orcs, Ents, Trolls, Eagles, or the various talking spiders.

 

—Alorael, who likes the theory that Tom Bombadil is actually Eru. No, it doesn't really make much sense.

[Trenton.]

so gandalf came into the world fully adult, well what did he do before he became an wizard

?

[The Mystic]

Gandalf served the Valar in Aman, though it isn't clear which one(s).

[Tracer Bullet]

Originally Posted By: loyal servile of sasuke uchiha

so gandalf came into the world fully adult, well what did he do before he became an wizard
?

Weren't you listening?!

[Dikiyoba]

To be fair, if this is your only exposure to the greater Middle Earth mythology, it's pretty much incomprehensible.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

The basic conceptual hurdle is still that Gandalf is not human, and in fact was not even passing as human. He's a Maiar, a minor god, and came into being when the world did. No, before the world did.

 

—Alorael, who assumes one of his primary duties before wizarding was congratulating himself on helping to make the world.

[Tracer Bullet]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

To be fair, if this is your only exposure to the greater Middle Earth mythology, it's pretty much incomprehensible.

Dikiyoba.

Admittedly. Fflewddur apologizes for the abrupt disbelief.

[Diex45]

one quick question what was this topic really about before it derailed?

[Trenton.]

you could know that if you would have just went to page one and looked at the first post instead of spamming the page with easily awnsered questions

[Diex45]

*looks stupid* Oh yea never thought of that one >_> lol never make posts while half asleep >_>

[Trenton.]

now where were we? oh yes Lotr and middle earth

[Alorael at Large]

Facepalm, if you'll excuse my Slarty-speak. That last post also didn't need to be made.

 

—Alorael, who thinks maybe this thread has played out. That would not be a terrible thing.