"Family friendliness" of Geneforge games?

[Triumph]

I know all Jeff's games, at least those I've played so far, are pretty good about being so-called "family friendly," in terms of their content (or whatever term one cares to use; NOT talking about gameplay difficulty). I only have Geneforge 3; how do the other four games in the series compare? Any questionable content possibly not suited for kids?

[Dikiyoba]

The other Geneforge games are exactly like G3, so they're suitable for kids.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

All the games are suitable for kids. The strongest language I can remember is "Damn," back in E1, there's not really any sexual content, and while there's lots and lots of violence, you get it either in text or in terrible graphics.

 

—Alorael, who wouldn't want to expose very young children to, say, very slightly veiled descriptions of torture and cannibalism, or even to the genocidal Taygen in G5. But as soon as they hit about five or so they'll think it's awesome and there's no problem at all.

[Mod.]

Originally Posted By: Diffidence makes a difference

, and while there's lots and lots of violence,

Ah, violence doesn't count unless there is blood and gore involved. While geneforge does have some blood, it is pretty minuscule. I think this series is suitable for young kids all the way through.

[SpaceCadetHX]

I dunno, on one level the game is family friendly to kids but if your kid should happen to growup and become rich and have his own mansion and servants he might have a bad opinion of serviles and that could mean trouble.....

 

[Mod.]

Unless he is pro-rebel.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: Mod.

Unless he is pro-rebel.

In which case he should absolutely stay out of genetic engineering.

[Enraged Slith]

I would say that it's all pretty gruesome when you really think about it, but that didn't stop me from playing these games when I was a child. The truth is that they probably wont understand the gravity of what they're doing and would just have fun walking around and bopping monsters on the head.

[Tirien]

Children are evil, blood-thirsty little monsters. All the blood and killing on Geneforge probably delights most of them. This is why I child-proofed my house. Lets see them try to get in now!

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Tirien

Children are evil, blood-thirsty little monsters. All the blood and killing on Geneforge probably delights most of them. This is why I child-proofed my house. Lets see them try to get in now!

Children are not Velociraptors.

Dikiyoba.

[KrataLightblade]

I think people underestimate the ability of children to divide fantasy from reality.

 

I was around three when I first played Dragon Warrior, and I never once was terrified that giant skeletons were going to burst into my room and my only recourse to defeat them would be a broadsword from Garinham, for instance.

 

That said, I think I speak for most reasonable humans when I say that there's very little in Avernum or Geneforge that would irreparably damage a child, if anything at all. Then again, I grew up on mutant turtles with attitude being threatened by a giant can opener. Maybe my generation is a bad one to ask about damaging children.

 

EDIT:

 

Originally Posted By: Fukuiraptor

Originally Posted By: Tirien

Children are evil, blood-thirsty little monsters. All the blood and killing on Geneforge probably delights most of them. This is why I child-proofed my house. Lets see them try to get in now!

Children are not Velociraptors.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Give my nephew another year and my sister might swear differently.

[SpaceCadetHX]

All pro-rebel children will deal with my plated clawbugs.

 

ps - Dragon Warrior may be the coolest game of all time. I can still recall farming gold from "Goldman" for hour and hours.

[Mod.]

I've played that game so many times, but never beat it because I never knew where the sun stones were. It was still fun every time.

[LORDKINGDAMANLORD josue]

unless the spawners get to u : O

[Shaper Shaper]

Not unless my mighty force of drayks get to them first.

 

No, Geneforge is a family-friendly game. There's no blood that I know of (it's not in the graphics at least) but there is revolution and traitors, but hey! That's what makes the Geneforge series epic.

[Lord Safey]

I think in one of the avernum games that it was vaguely hinted at a pair of women had a less then traditional relation ship. Besides that the only thing that could see is lots of the blood and violence conveyed through text and crude graphics.

[Slawbug]

How exactly is a lesbian relationship any less "family friendly" than a heterosexual relationship?

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

How exactly is a lesbian relationship any less "family friendly" than a heterosexual relationship?

The people most concerned with "family friendliness", in my experience, tend to be religious. Some religious people don't like homosexuality. Ergo, some people inquiring about family friendliness might have a problem with homosexuality. QED.

[Slawbug]

The question stands.

[Txgangsta]

Two of the avernum graphics maybe show a bit more skin than you want, but only if your really conservative on what you want your kids to see.

 

@CoIS

 

In Jeffs games, the possibility of this is nothing, but, some families don't want to get into a conversation with their kids over homosexual relationships. So, I guess its less family friendly because it confuses the kid because it breaks the normality of his/her family. Then they ask a lot of questions, and the parents don't wanna answer those at that age.

 

Should this be called less family friendly? No. Not in any way, shape, or form. And this is coming from a conservative religious freak. However, some people count it because they are ignorant.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Txgangsta

So, I guess its less family friendly because it confuses the kid because it breaks the normality of his/her family.

What if the kid in question does not belong to one of these "normal" families? Heck, does this mean that single parent households are not family friendly either? Because Avernum has a bunch of those, and they also don't fit the model.

The answer -- that lesbians go in "family unfriendly" because a minority of the population consider them abnormal and something they don't want their kids to know about at a young age -- is not an adequate answer, because the same thing could easily be said about abusive sexual harassment (Garzahd and Enla), divorce (Tor and Diane, Tor and Carol), or interracial marriage (astoundingly unpopular in the U.S. until a few decades ago; many examples in the games), not to mention the use of magic (enough parents have a problem with this to get the odd fantasy classic banned from a library once in a while).

So what is it about lesbians that makes them go in this "family unfriendly" category, while the other things are okay?

I'm asking this, by the way, as a serious question for exploration and discussion, and not as bait for an argument.

[SpaceCadetHX]

I think I read that according to Shaper Law, as long as the lesbians are hot, all is acceptable.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Originally Posted By: Andras1444

Not unless my mighty force of drayks get to them first.

No, Geneforge is a family-friendly game. There's no blood that I know of (it's not in the graphics at least) but there is revolution and traitors, but hey! That's what makes the Geneforge series epic.

Well, there is something that looks a lot like blood left on the ground after you kill something. I would say there is blood in Geneforge but it is minimal and there is no gore at all.

[Lord Safey]

I was simply trying to consider what the poster of the question would consider Family friendly. I was not try to suggest that homosexuality was something to be talk about only in whispers.

 

As far as not pointing out the others I simply did not notice them. I'm a pretty dense individual and only noticed that one because someone else pointed it out to me.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

So what is it about lesbians that makes them go in this "family unfriendly" category, while the other things are okay?

Keep in mind, "family unfriendly", to use your term, does not necessarily mean "abomination that must be purged". It just means a subject that I wouldn't let my (hypothetical) family near. Here's my reasoning for a perfectly normal, average, and non-bigoted family keeping their child away from such material.

1. A person inquiring about the family friendliness of the game is doing so because they either intend to buy the game for their kids or for someone else's kids.
2. Aforementioned kids would probably be young enough that they would not be able to pick out their games for themselves, or are otherwise severely limited by ESRB rating, which Jeff's games do not have.
3. This is done in an attempt to filter out questionable content, which may include violence, swearing, and sex. Note the last item.
4. There are a multitude of reasons to do this. Perhaps they're too young. Perhaps they have a religious or moral conviction. Perhaps X subject is simply sensitive (eg if a parent died in a war, the other parent may wish to not allow the kid play CoD for psychological reasons)
5. Lesbianism is a sexuality, sexual preference, sexual orientation, pick whatever term you want to describe it; I don't want to get bogged down in semantics and wind up in a choice v. genes debate. I'll go with sexuality because it's short and easy to type.
6. As such, in many peoples eyes, sexuality is inseparable from sex.
7. Therefore, if said small child is exposed to alternate sexualities, they will ask questions, like children do. The parent is either forced to give answers that they're not ready to give, or refuse and force the child to investigate on their own, which never turns out good for the parent.
8. The parent then simply blanket bans any mention of sexuality from reaching th child until the parent deems the child capable of discussing and understanding it in a mature and reasonable way.

As a disclaimer, please note I have neither the patience nor willpower to cross-reference every term I would use in casual conversation and replace it with a euphemism in order to not offend. Presume in good faith that I am a crotchety old man and do so because of deeply ingrained habits and not out of a burning desire to offend X group/person.

[Goldengirl]

To throw my two cents in on the matter, I'd say that the references are indeed so limited and obscure, and only in the earlier games of the Avernum/Exile series, that it's not an issue of family friendliness or otherwise. In fact, I'd say that one has to be aware of what homosexuality is before one can even pick up on it in the game.

 

Specifically, I'm thinking of Avernum 3 in the Portal Fortress. Yes, there was a couple with a rainbow pen symbol, but it's played off and quite easy to gloss over if you don't know the significance of it.

[Slawbug]

I follow you up until here:

Originally Posted By: Dantius

5. Lesbianism is a sexuality, sexual preference, sexual orientation, pick whatever term you want to describe it; I don't want to get bogged down in semantics and wind up in a choice v. genes debate. I'll go with sexuality because it's short and easy to type.

6. As such, in many peoples eyes, sexuality is inseparable from sex.

Okay, but heterosexuality is sexuality too. If the lesbian relationship was graphic and the straight ones were courtly, I'd see what you were saying: but in this case, it's actually the straight couples whose love and affection is more visible.

Quote:

7. Therefore, if said small child is exposed to alternate sexualities, they will ask questions, like children do.

So let me get this straight: you think that you can expose small child to traditional sexuality, and they won't have any questions to ask about it?!?

Quote:

8. The parent then simply blanket bans any mention of sexuality from reaching th child until the parent deems the child capable of discussing and understanding it in a mature and reasonable way.

Again, I see the reasoning here, but I fail to see how "any mention of sexuality" covers women making veiled references to having a relationship, but does not cover the various heterosexual couples who talk about being in love.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

I follow you up until here:

Remember that up until this point, the child has most likely only been exposed to heterosexual couples. As such, they won't see any deviation from the norm, and furthermore, any questions directed against it can be dismissed without mentioning sexuality in the slightest- just handwave it away as "love" or whatever and show them a Disney movie. While that's not necessarily correct, it should serve to misdirect them away until they forget it. But that's very unlikley, as why would they question something that they've seen no alternative to thus far?

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Again, I see the reasoning here, but I fail to see how "any mention of sexuality" covers women making veiled references to having a relationship, but does not cover the various heterosexual couples who talk about being in love.

It's essentially a moot point anyways, as the kid almost certainly won't catch it in the first point. I'm presuming that we're now discussing this topic outside the context of the particular couple in Avernum? Because there isn't really much to go on otherwise...

[Txgangsta]

"Family-Friendly" is relative to each individual. If someone asks, it would be courteous to mention. There is a significant (though a minority) percentage of people that would consider homosexual relations unsuitable for the family.

 

Why? They're ignorant. Plain and simple.

 

This is coming from a very very conservative Christian. Homosexuality is common, and shielding people from it does not make it go away.

 

As for the religious side of it (this post will most likely now be deleted), if your Christian, you should consider homosexuality a sin. Its in the bible, old and new testaments; there is no way around it. But, excessive drinking is an equal sin. Lying is an equal sin. Heterosexual lust is an equal sin. Oh wait, they're all equal sins! So, homosexuals are no more messed up than anyone else!

 

Even with that said, to be courteous to the unthinking, lets mention the relation.

[Slawbug]

Okay, yeah, the religious stuff needs to stay out: calling people sinners and stating what people "should" believe is not what these forums are for. So please, folks, don't respond to that part (or reiterate it), because then the thread WILL be locked.

 

I'm not locking it now because I think the conversation about what standards should define what is or is not family friendly is a worthwhile one. Continuing it:

 

Originally Posted By: Txgangsta

"Family-Friendly" is relative to each individual... There is a significant (though a minority) percentage of people that would consider homosexual relations unsuitable for the family.

So ANYTHING that ANY significant minority consider "unsuitable for the family" qualifies as not family friendly? Where do you draw the line? There are an awful lot of different things that different minorities think are inappropriate...

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

So ANYTHING that ANY significant minority consider "unsuitable for the family" qualifies as not family friendly? Where do you draw the line? There are an awful lot of different things that different minorities think are inappropriate...

I have to agree here: Geneforge games have bottles of wine, which could upset a family that condemns alcohol. However, there is a difference between that and a game focused around alcohol (why you would play a game like that is beyond me...).

Each individual has their own values and definition of "family friendly." The best any group, such as the ESRB, can do is establish general guidelines that focus on majority ethics and leave them as recommendations.

[Randomizer]

I think Jeff's drinking contributes to the large number of wine and ale bottles lying around in his worlds. He mentions in his blog doing that while on his last vacation.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: Master1

I have to agree here: Geneforge games have bottles of wine, which could upset a family that condemns alcohol. However, there is a difference between that and a game focused around alcohol (why you would play a game like that is beyond me...)

Not only do Geneforge games have bottles of alcohol lying around all over the place, the original Avernum trilogy, and I assume Exile, too, actually let you use them, and get drunk! Mushroom ale isn't appealing to anyone, but it got the job done.

I can't recall vividly, but I believe that the second Avernum trilogy ended this, but the point is still there.

[Txgangsta]

Well, if someone asks about the game being family friendly, these are things that can be pointed out. The game is not focused on any of these things, no, but if someone asks, then why not tell them? It just seems courteous to me.

 

Groups such as the ESRB have their ratings based on an average family. The average family also doesn't care what the ESRB says. So, if one is asking, I'm assuming they're a bit more conservative than most. Since wine and ale in geneforge games can't do anything except be sold for cash, I didn't think it necessary to mention.

 

To me, this game is plenty family-friendly. If it wasn't I wouldn't be here. But if someone asks, I'm going to tell them what possible things they might not like because this description is relative.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

I think Jeff's drinking contributes to the large number of wine and ale bottles lying around in his worlds. He mentions in his blog doing that while on his last vacation.

Might he also like gardening? There are a lot of Trowel's hanging around. =)

[Tirien]

Originally Posted By: SpaceCadetHX

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

I think Jeff's drinking contributes to the large number of wine and ale bottles lying around in his worlds. He mentions in his blog doing that while on his last vacation.

Might he also like gardening? There are a lot of Trowel's hanging around. =)

[sarcasm] There's also alot of trees, swords, and dead bodies lying around. Does that mean he likes trees, swords, and dead bodies? [/sarcasm]

[SpaceCadetHX]

Originally Posted By: Tirien

Originally Posted By: SpaceCadetHX

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

I think Jeff's drinking contributes to the large number of wine and ale bottles lying around in his worlds. He mentions in his blog doing that while on his last vacation.

Might he also like gardening? There are a lot of Trowel's hanging around. =)

[sarcasm] There's also alot of trees, swords, and dead bodies lying around. Does that mean he likes trees, swords, and dead bodies? [/sarcasm]

Wow, you really seem to dislike me. Generally refreshing

[Slawbug]

Forget family friendliness, whatever happened to friendliness?

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Forget family friendliness, whatever happened to friendliness?

This is the internet. Anonymity breeds contempt.

[Tracer Bullet]

There are also a lot of broken pots. Does that mean he likes to break pots?

[Txgangsta]

In G1, there were a lot of ever-damaging areas. Does that mean he likes when the environment reduces his health points?

[Randomizer]

Jeff lives in Seattle, that meant that his games now have weather. It snows and rains.

[Tracer Bullet]

Yeah, I noticed the rain in G4. They never seemed to get any other weather, did they?

[Randomizer]

There was snow up in the mountains when you get near the end.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

So ANYTHING that ANY significant minority consider "unsuitable for the family" qualifies as not family friendly? Where do you draw the line? There are an awful lot of different things that different minorities think are inappropriate...

this really isn't that hard slarty. "family-friendly" is a dog-whistle for "won't make christian lobby groups complain"

[Slawbug]

*nod*

 

And that works perfectly fine. But seeing as this is pretty far removed from a forum of xian lobbyists, let's call it what it is, then.

[Tracer Bullet]

And what is it?

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

"won't make christian lobby groups complain"

[Txgangsta]

And so, if someone asks about something, we should intentionally exclude information so the christian lobby groups will complain? This is ridiculous. It'd be much more considerate to a potential customer if we told them things which could be perceived as issues. Is it generally unnecessary? Absolutely! But its not always, and lets not be jerks to those that have very conservative tastes.

[Slawbug]

I'm absolutely not suggesting that. I'm saying that we should call it what it is, rather than speaking as if minority values (that some people consider to be degrading to certain groups) are in fact universal. Maybe "call it what it is" sounds too aggressive. What I mean is that "family-friendly" is not an accurate term because lots of different kinds of people have families, and have different ideas of what is OK for their kids. I'd even be okay with "conservative family-friendly" which I think is a perfectly respectful way of putting it.