Avadon on Steam

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Welcome our Steam overlords!

That would be more credible if you had any kind of verifying information. I'd rate your chances of getting a free reviewer's copy at roughly zero.

—Alorael, who imagines that getting contacted directly by a notable publication would be much more likely to get Jeff's attention.

Well, presumably he does intend to somehow demonstrate his identity to Jeff. In any case, it's almost always better to give out too many free review copies than too few. I know I go on and on about the Recettear dudes, but one of the things they did was send a free copy to pretty much any bozo with a gaming blog, and it seems to have worked out for them.

[Danny the Fool]

Quote:

you cant change the market, you have to play the game to win it

With the words of a popular AAA title, "we can pick the game, but we cannot change the rules". And I think that is exactly what the louder members of this community are fearing: That Jeff is chosing a different game. (NB: You have the history of indie games slightly wrong; the current craze is nothing compared to the old days where there was hardly anything but indie games.)

I'm in another camp. I've played top-down RPGs in monochrome over twenty years ago, I've played roguelikes in text mode (and still do), but I also like some more recent modern games. I often wonder whether people who complain about a new game being dumbed down have something specific in mind that they've been playing for a long time, and are just reluctant to embrace change - somewhat similar to me thinking the 16 year old girls on the tram are dumbed down compared to my wife ;-).

[Skwish-E]

In every marketing and pricing campaign, you look for the sweet spot of pricing. There are two curves. One that goes down, and that is the number of people who will buy based on increasing price. The other curve is based on the total sales dollars based on the number of people who buy at that price, and it ususally looks like a skewed bell curve. While you could sell the game for $100,000 to one guy, and make $100,000, you probably won't find that one guy. You could sell it to 100,000 people for $1 and make pretty much the same amount of money (By not considering incremental sales costs, I'm being over simplistic here.) Somewhere in between there is a peak. Say you sell it to 10,000 people at $20, but when you drop the price to $10, you sell it to 18,000 people. Then dropping the price is a bad idea, even if the 8,000 people scream about it. A LOT of money and research go into these decisions. I don't know how Jeff makes his business decisions other than what he puts on his blog, but I'm sure that he was surpeised at the increase of sales due to lower prices for his games. Now, he may be in the "How low can you go?" phase, but I wouls hate to see him drop the game to $5, then not be able to sell 50,000 copies, and have to raise the price back up for the next version. He would likely lose even core customers if that happens.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Skwish-E

Now, he may be in the "How low can you go?" phase, but I wouls hate to see him drop the game to $5, then not be able to sell 50,000 copies, and have to raise the price back up for the next version. He would likely lose even core customers if that happens.

I think I'm one of Jeff's core customers, though I've only been playing his games since early 2007 so maybe I'm not the core of the core. But I have registered seven of his games.

If Jeff raised his price to, say, $35 a game, that wouldn't make me hesitate at all. I play every one of his games multiple times, which is probably at least two hundred hours per game. At $50 per game that would be an entertainment bargain, far more cost efficient than going to a movie or going out to eat, for example. In addition, there are ethical reasons to buy a game from an independent developer with two employees working in his basement.

Maybe there will be some sort of a culture clash between the old-schoolers and the new-steamers on this forum, and maybe there won't be. But as long as Jeff is making great RPGs I will keep buying them, and I will buy them from his site and not off of Steam. The only thing that will change that, aside from personal financial disaster, is if he starts making tiny throwaway games to appeal to the very-very-casual crowd.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

Maybe there will be some sort of a culture clash between the old-schoolers and the new-steamers on this forum, and maybe there won't be. But as long as Jeff is making great RPGs I will keep buying them, and I will buy them from his site and not off of Steam. The only thing that will change that, aside from personal financial disaster, is if he starts making tiny throwaway games to appeal to the very-very-casual crowd.

and here i was looking forward to being able to play Angry Drayks one day

[ToddMcF2002]

Originally Posted By: VampLena

But most gamers are use to paying 20$ and up (and sometimes cheaper!) for new sparkling 3D games and the like, and so its just not cost effective to drop more money on a game that looks like its from the 90s and lacks voice acting and all the modern amenities mainstream gamers are use to. Its tough to reconcile these two types of gamer players, probably impossible which is why these concessions must be made.

Not all gamers are that stupid and are shopping for pure gaming content. Many of us play and see all of it... Dragon Age, the Witcher, Mass Effect etc. Bioware concentrates on flashy graphics and sex with dwarves while many of us really want Baldurs Gate 3. Jeff is offering real game content without the unnatural sex with dwarves. Screw the graphics.

Now that Steam has arrived though... Jeff is likely going to feel some unnatural pressures.

[Sterno]

So you're saying the next game might really be Avernum: Escape from the Naked Dwarf Pit?

[Rowen]

Congratulations Jeff. I am happy to see that Avadon is on STEAM. I really hope that this works out to your favor and that STEAM will continue to carry your future games.

 

Also, that video was a little fun to watch. I hope that was your making.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: ToddMcF2002

Not all gamers are that stupid and are shopping for pure gaming content. Many of us play and see all of it... Dragon Age, the Witcher, Mass Effect etc. Bioware concentrates on flashy graphics and sex with dwarves while many of us really want Baldurs Gate 3. Jeff is offering real game content without the unnatural sex with dwarves. Screw the graphics.

I would laugh so hard if Jeff's next game had romance options in it. The Redbeard x Shima slashfics that would inevitably result would probably be hilarious.

[Deukalion]

Welcome to Steam, Spiderweb team!

 

I am very happy that your sale of Avadon on Steam has brought your company to my attention, being a bit of an "old school" junkie.

 

I hope that steam brings you as much success as it has for other companies like Basilisk Games, and I hope that it proves worth your while to sell future games on the platform.

[Slawbug]

Redbeard x Shima ... what ARE you talking about?

 

Clearly, it's Sevelin x Shima.

[Dintiradan]

I ship Redbeard/Rentar. That's Crystal Soul Rentar, not A2/A3 Rentar.

 

But yeah. Jeff: Please, please, please don't start making your CRPGs into dating sims. Although... if you think going on Steam gives you good coverage, just wait until you get airtime on Fox and start a moral panic a la Mass Effect 1.

[Slawbug]

Fox News... BEEP?

[Randomizer]

Avernum 2: Romancing the Stone

 

In order to get the Vahnatai to remove the barrier and get them to help versus the Empire, you need to ....

 

I can't, I just want to kil, kill, kill, kill, .... (just like Arlo Guthrie)

[Enraged Slith]

There's more than one way to bring Rentar to her knees.

[Skwish-E]

 

But at $50 I would have to turn it down since I have a family of 7 to feed, clothe, and school. $45 is my upper limit for a game, and about all I can spend on games in a year, so Jeff pretty much gets all my Gaming $.

[Alorael at Large]

If we extrapolate from current pricing trends, Jeff will be paying us to play his games in just a few months!

 

—Alorael, who agrees that Jeff could still make many sales if he charged substantially more for his games. He just thinks that Jeff has tested his number and decided that selling for less will make him more. There's also the important word of mouth aspect: once your game hits critical popularity mass, it becomes gamer mainstream and comes up wherever gamers talk, and then you have lots of free word of mouth advertising. Friend to friend is good; friend to everyone is better.

[Rowen]

Originally Posted By: Alorael

Friend to friend is good; friend to everyone is better.

Steam just got steamier.

[Alorael at Large]

Learning about Spiderweb games is a considerable benefit to friendship...

 

—Alorael, who actually first learned about Spiderweb from someone he can only classify as hostile acquaintance. It may be the nicest thing that guy ever did for him.

[Slawbug]

Does America Online count as a hostile acquaintance?

[Rowen]

I would count anything above AOL 3.0 as hostile. 2.7 was my favorite.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Skwish-E

But at $50 I would have to turn it down since I have a family of 7 to feed, clothe, and school. $45 is my upper limit for a game, and about all I can spend on games in a year, so Jeff pretty much gets all my Gaming $.

Understood, but I just picked $50 as a representative higher price. My point would have been the same if I had said $45, or just stuck with $35, which is more than I have paid for any Spiderweb game. I was responding to your statement that if Jeff raised prices in the future he would lose core customers. I don't think that's the case.

[kevlarcardhouse]

I think there's also the potential to gain new long-term fans.

 

Someone who might previously not been sure if he would enjoy this type of game would hesitate at the price tag, even with the demo. But if he buys Avadon off Steam as an impulse and likes it, he might consider purchasing future Spiderweb games even if they are more than $10 next time.

 

The only kind of downside is the timing, as two other indie games came out the same week on Steam (From Dust and Bastion) and both of them come with a lot of hype behind them and a very distinct art style.

[captain_video]

Actually Steam often releases several new indie games per week. This was a busy release week that included SPAZ, EDGE, Hacker Evolution Duality (a sequel), Bastion, From Dust, and some complete unknown called Avadon. Plus a few DLCs for already-published indie games were released this week as well.

 

Hype doesn't last long on Steam. If a new game has weaknesses, regardless of its genre, the player community will pick it apart pretty fast. Bastion has been extremely well-received, whereas From Dust has been pretty thoroughly trashed since its release due to its very short length, limited gameplay options and draconian Ubisoft DRM (something the publisher fibbed about in pre-release promos). Art style is nice, and it may get you a sales boost on release day, but if the rest of the game is poor, good luck trying to pitch your next title!

 

Steam represents a conflagration of pretty much every gaming genre there is on the PC and Mac platforms, so a publisher shouldn't be discouraged by the 14-year-old FPS addicts criticizing old-school RPGs, just think of it as their loss. There is a segment of the Steam community which has been clamoring for more old-school RPGs, the Infinity Engine titles in particular (even thought they're all available on GOG), so this could prove to be a very successful move.

[Deukalion]

Originally Posted By: captain_video

Steam represents a conflagration of pretty much every gaming genre there is on the PC and Mac platforms, so a publisher shouldn't be discouraged by the 14-year-old FPS addicts criticizing old-school RPGs, just think of it as their loss. There is a segment of the Steam community which has been clamoring for more old-school RPGs, the Infinity Engine titles in particular (even thought they're all available on GOG), so this could prove to be a very successful move.

You are right on the money, my friend. Just as there are many tasteless fools on Steam, there are also many of us who eat up the old-school style games. I am no expert on marketing, but I have a good feeling that Avadon will do at least well enough on Steam to justify the move, and to hopefully make the new Exile remake worth putting up there, as well.

[Danny the Fool]

Originally Posted By: Deukalion

You are right on the money, my friend. Just as there are many tasteless fools on Steam, there are also many of us who eat up the old-school style games.

You can tell that from the amount of exposure GoG is getting on the Steam forums... good on Valve for letting people advertise GoG there too btw.

[Uberwiggett]

Hi all, new here. Saw avadon on steam and said "hey that looks like exile!" (well, avernum.) then when I saw it was spiderweb software I bought it straight away.

 

 

Nothing of particular note, just thought I'd post to say it's awesome.

[kevlarcardhouse]

Originally Posted By: captain_video

Hype doesn't last long on Steam. If a new game has weaknesses, regardless of its genre, the player community will pick it apart pretty fast. Bastion has been extremely well-received, whereas From Dust has been pretty thoroughly trashed since its release due to its very short length, limited gameplay options and draconian Ubisoft DRM (something the publisher fibbed about in pre-release promos).

I meant that Avadon is probably being overshadowed by other similarly priced indie games that have much more of a "wow" factor that they might not have otherwise. For instance, despite all the negative "community" attention on From Dust, it still is right at the top of the sales charts both at Steam and other services like Direct2Drive. Meanwhile, Avadon is already gone from the Top 20 after three days.

That said, I still hope this thing is doing well for Spiderweb as I have no idea what the actual numbers of copies they have sold so far.

[Lilith]

I have no idea how the Steam version in particular is doing, but overall Avadon is selling well and Jeff is very happy with its performance.

[Slawbug]

Based on the number of people registering on these forums to say nice things about, it must be selling pretty decently -- the vast majority of buyers never post, of course, and even if it's just a few hundred sales, that's a few hundred sales that wouldn't have happened before. And based on what people are posting, there's great potential for new customers and word of mouth: people who remember Exile but didn't realize SW was still around, etc.

[nikki.]

Exactly. Also, it must have been shifting at least some kind of meaningful numbers to make it into the top 13 selling games on Steam.

 

Of course, we can't know the exact figures, but judging from that, and the increase in forum activity, as Slarty said, I reckon this will turn out to be a pretty successful venture on Jeff's part.

[corallus]

I just hope that Jeff doesn't dumb down his games to make them more casual anymore than he has done so far..

[*i]

I don't think making a game simpler is necessarily a bad thing, so long as he provides ways such as torment difficulty that still challenge the experienced players.

 

Chess, for instance, has fairly simple mechanics and is not too difficult to learn, but very difficult to master all the nuances of what makes an "optimal" game. In this case, you aren't playing against other humans, but solely Jeff's AI; however, the basic question of what makes for good strategic choices of character builds and tactical combat decisions is analogous. Against a weak AI, making these choices should not be terribly important, but against the strong one, making good ones is crucial to success.

 

I do think Avadon strikes a good balance here.

[Beakie]

Hi All,

 

Just a quick note to let you all know I'm a steam User and have bought Avadon on there (also on the Ipad which is where I first saw the game.)

 

Also to say that Jeff must be doing something right with the pricing he got me to pay twice for the same game... LOL

 

From this thread, I get the feeling that there are alot of "old school RPGer's" around and they are afraid that making the games more accessible to the "Main Stream Gamer" are going to force Jeff to "Dumb Down" his future games to this I say I truly hope not. Because his move to the Ipad and Steam has (for me at least) reawakened my love for these types of games.... games, to be honest, I thought were long gone. I have a very long gaming history starting with typing in RPG's in basic from books on a 2k (not a typo) Sinclair 1000 to the C64 to my rig today.

 

Beakie

 

 

 

[corallus]

I was mainly thinking of how some devs have cut spells/talent trees/abilities from their games in the later versions. While I agree that in some cases it can vastly improve a game..I have also seen games ruined by it(ruined for me anyway).. Like the old saying goes "If it aint broke..don't fix it"

 

Dragon Age Origins was 'the best' rpg from bioware since baldurs gate imo.When I got my hands on DA:II I was so excited. However upon installing and starting it I was so shocked at what I saw that I literally just sat staring at my screen with my mouth hanging open for several seconds before mouthing 'No..No!, oh god NO! what have they done!!' I was so peeved at what they had done to it, the interface was all differnt and looked more like SWKotOR..(I have the PC version) I had a ciggie,spoke to a mate who had just bought it as well and he said 'Just play it, give it 30 mins' So I sat down and started playing and sure enough, I soon started to see the good points about it..and after a while I was hooked and wanted to finish it..

Now while I still think it was a good game, and I enjoyed it. I do however think it strayed far from the path of DA:O to the point that I think maybe another title should have been used.

[Uberwiggett]

I just ran a contest for my friends and accquaintances on FB and G+, first person to answer correctly got a copy of avadon to their steam account. Because it was so cheap I thought why not gift a few copies

 

Also the contest was testing how much actual video game knowledge they have, it was a zork related question. i'm such a swiptser.

[arkhaine]

I haven't posted here much (at all), but I've been with Spiderweb Software on and off since Exile 2. My last significant playthrough was Geneforge 5. I wanted to love the last couple of Avernum's, but it never happened (though I love Exile/Avernum 2).

 

Anyway, I bought Avadon when it came to Steam. I remember frantically pressing the refresh button earlier this year when Avadon was almost, but not quite, released - I wanted it! It sounded great! It seemed tremendous! And then I downloaded the demo and it was good - very good - Spiderweb good - but I never bought it. No reason, no problem, no issue - I just didn't. Time went by and here we are.

 

And here we are. I saw the game come up again on Steam (and I suppose I was waiting for an October sale...), and then I bought it. I didn't care, because the price was so small, and I knew I would love it. But I didn't want to play it right now. I was happy to buy it and have it and it would sit there until I was ready. It was partly Steam, and it was partly the price (though I will admit that, if the price was $20 USD on Steam, I still would have bought it) - but it was mostly Spiderweb. I change my computer around, I format, I switch from Mac to Windows, I shuffle about - but Steam is there. And Steam doesn't care if I download again. Steam keeps my save files. Steam, as much as a company can, looks after me, as a gamer. I don't look after me, as a gamer, half as much as Steam does. I backup my photos - sure. I backup my writing - sure. I backup my tax files - sure. I backup - you get the idea. But my saves? No. But Steam does.

 

What I am saying is that I, a Spiderweb fan (I have the Exile 2, the first three Avernum games, the entire Geneforge series), I, again, a Spiderweb fan, I wasn't sold until the convenience of Steam sold me.

 

This is is no way an attack on Jeff's customer service. He has been very good - I've switched machines and received new codes very easily (and in fact need some new codes for the old Avernums at the moment) - but it's a matter of convenience. Steam is there, Steam collects my medals/achievements, Steam keeps my saves, Steam keeps my game.

 

For me, Steam is a gamechanger for Spiderweb, and from the conversations I have had with friends, it's a gamechanger for them, too. They don't care about a random website, but they do care about what is on Steam. And they do care, very much, for "old school" RPG games that care more for story/atmosphere/adventure that new-school games. If the gamer will not come to the game, then the game must come to the gamer. Steam does this, and I hope it is tremendously successful.

[Vent]

I recently crash and was unable anymore to boot, didn't lost data but gave up searching solve the problem and finally installed a fresh OS.

 

Keeping Steam games without reinstalling them was awfully easy when compared to any other system including no DRM games that often required I installed again fully.

 

But the monopole Steam situation is becoming more and more a problem. It's just not sane and can only end on crap. The situation is too unbalanced and nothing seems be able to stop that. I like Steam but it's a big threatening on gaming.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Vent

But the monopole Steam situation is becoming more and more a problem. It's just not sane and can only end on crap. The situation is too unbalanced and nothing seems be able to stop that. I like Steam but it's a big threatening on gaming.

EA is doing their best of late to end Steam's monopoly. Battlefield 3 will not be going on Steam but will be on Origin, their own digital distribution service.

[Earth]

other digital ds's have 1 big problem and its that steam has existed a while and has got big userbase who might not want to change dds or start using 2nd dds.

[Vent]

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

...EA is doing their best of late to end Steam's monopoly. Battlefield 3 will not be going on Steam but will be on Origin, their own digital distribution service...

Do you want bet that this won't last much? Sure EA has a huge catalog but EA alone... Anyway it's clear that Origin isn't the right way to do it.

The only thing I can see would be an Open Source meta digital gaming desktop. Something encapsulating many digital shops. Not only that could temper a little Steam extreme domination but also that could also offer a real game desktop instead of the crap all offer including Steam one.

Technically impossible, perhaps, but when all but Steam will want find a solution, who know. Also at the rate it goes, possibly in 10 years or a bit later Steam will have big problem with USA anti trust laws and possibly problem too with EU anti trust laws if there's any.

Originally Posted By: Earth Empires

other digital ds's have 1 big problem and its that steam has existed a while and has got big userbase who might not want to change dds or start using 2nd dds.

Lol see where it already goes, you can't even imagine consumers using more than one digital shop.

I don't know perhaps you are right, myself I use few more, for example last GamersGate sales was interesting with games like:

• Thief: the Dark Project 5€
• Culpa Innata 5.39€
• Precursors 8.99€
• Twin Sector 2.5€
• Red Faction 1.24€
• Samurai II: Vengeance 3.5€
• Alien Hallway 3.98€
• Jamestown: Legend of the Lost Colony 4.48€

Yeah GamersGate is just an ant in comparison with Steam, But that's the point, there's only a limited number of days per year and Steam not only can't cover all. The situation is leading to Steam only and few ant markets beside, not sane.

Quote that I'm writing that, but I'm also buying most digital games in Steam.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Vent

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

...EA is doing their best of late to end Steam's monopoly. Battlefield 3 will not be going on Steam but will be on Origin, their own digital distribution service...

Do you want bet that this won't last much? Sure EA has a huge catalog but EA alone... Anyway it's clear that Origin isn't the right way to do it.

The only thing I can see would be an Open Source meta digital gaming desktop. Something encapsulating many digital shops. Not only that could temper a little Steam extreme domination but also that could also offer a real game desktop instead of the crap all offer including Steam one.

Technically impossible, perhaps, but when all but Steam will want find a solution, who know. Also at the rate it goes, possibly in 10 years or a bit later Steam will have big problem with USA anti trust laws and possibly problem too with EU anti trust laws if there's any.

Originally Posted By: Earth Empires

other digital ds's have 1 big problem and its that steam has existed a while and has got big userbase who might not want to change dds or start using 2nd dds.

Lol see where it already goes, you can't even imagine consumers using more than one digital shop.

I don't know perhaps you are right, myself I use few more, for example last GamersGate sales was interesting with games like:

• Thief: the Dark Project 5€
• Culpa Innata 5.39€
• Precursors 8.99€
• Twin Sector 2.5€
• Red Faction 1.24€
• Samurai II: Vengeance 3.5€
• Alien Hallway 3.98€
• Jamestown: Legend of the Lost Colony 4.48€

Yeah GamersGate is just an ant in comparison with Steam, But that's the point, there's only a limited number of days per year and Steam not only can't cover all. The situation is leading to Steam only and few ant markets beside, not sane.

Quote that I'm writing that, but I'm also buying most digital games in Steam.

I wasn't saying Origin was the right option. I was just commenting that it exists and EA is pushing it.

Direct2Drive, which has been around as long as Steam, and Good Old Games also have great deals from time to time. Steam's big advantage, and the reason I prefer to buy my games there, is the centralized location for all my games. Install Steam on an computer with a reasonably fast internet connection, and I immediately have access to nearly 200 games on my Steam account. Many people have even more. If you buy from different vendors, you then have to download from all those different vendors should you need to reinstall. I understand that monopolies are bad, but in this case, a monopoly really does make things more convenient for the consumer.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

I understand that monopolies are bad, but in this case, a monopoly really does make things more convenient for the consumer.

Unless the consumer is still waiting to get a Mac for personal or family use that has an Intel chip in it. But I guess that I shouldn't get into that right now...

As far as Steam and monopoly is concerned, I'm going to sound like my oldest brother. As long as the company is still providing the service and it's good enough that people accept it, there is no reason to have a major competitor. As long as Steam still acts like there is significant competition and provides a quality service, I don't see any problem with what it does. Then again, we'll always need niche game vendors, just like our niche developers, to satisfy the bizarrely-shaped corners of the market.

[Uberwiggett]

Yeah I'm prety happy with steam, used to get annoyed about needing it when i bought a game off a shelf, but it is handy to have a centralised account for my games. I'd be annoyed more to have 5 accounts with different publishers all because they couldn't learn to share.

 

edit: solution; just buy spiderweb software games from now on, they're all you will need

[Vent]

Unanimity has something frightening. If I remember well, why there's no Avernum on Steam, not because Jeff didn't want but because Steam refused. Why Avadon is about 6€ on Steam and 20€ on GamersGate, because Steam has a pressure power.

[jfunk]

Just another person coming here to say thanks for putting Avadon on Steam. Bought it instantly.

 

I'd certainly like to see some combo packs of the older games made available in the future too.

 

Effortless management is why I buy 99% of all my games on Steam now. Their service is superior to that offered by any of the other digital distributors. Anymore, if it's not on Steam or GOG, I probably don't know it exists. I certainly don't want to worry about finding some serial number email or physical disc/paper down the road, if I even remember I own a game that isn't in my library.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Vent

Why Avadon is about 6€ on Steam and 20€ on GamersGate, because Steam has a pressure power.

There might be an element of pressure, but I think Jeff was honest when he said that Steam suggested the price and he believed them. After all, Steam's cut depends on sales too, so they have the same goal as Jeff: wring as much revenue out of it as possible. With their data, they probably do have a good idea of how best to price a game to get it flying off the digital shelves.

—Alorael, who actually thinks GOG wins on game convenience. You still have a library, but you don't have to fight with a client, worry about being online, or deal with the other Steam headaches. (Downside: you don't get a friendly client with your game library.) That said, GOG's niche seems to be mostly old gems. They're trying to branch out into the modern, but they don't need to.

[Vent]

Well that's not the right thread to continue more about that, and not the right person, it's to young people to feel concerned and I don't consider it my problem, if there's no young no take care of that, no need to care.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Vent

Lol see where it already goes, you can't even imagine consumers using more than one digital shop.

Some might but will there be enough to support EA shop, Activision shop, etc that's the main question.

[Uberwiggett]

yeah I really dislike the idea of having to log into a new service for every different game I have. And considering how often my bfbc2 games don't happen because I can't connect to EA i'm definitely not going to be happy with using their service. A single centralised service is very handy, but I can see how it would monopolize the market and cause issues, and yes I agree that it's annoying to buy something retail but require online verification for it but most of the game are online multiplayer now anyway.