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I resently read that our beloved gamemaker Jeff Vogel is thinking of remaking the original avernum trilogy after he finishes avadon, normally id look forward to such an event but in this case ive got something i want to say.

 

Before i say what im going to say next i would like to make it clear that i am just a fan who is voicing her trepidation. I will not pass my judgement on Jeffs handiwork until i actually play the games. I am just voicing my opinion because in my experience it is better to have warning before the event takes place.

 

First of all the avernum trilogy is already a remake, and both the Exile series and the Avernum trilogy are awesome. But remaking a remake? Don't you think its a little bit to soon? the series has bareley been concluded cant you wait just a bit, mabey do something new? i know that avadon is in the works and i cant wait for its release, but i think spiderweb really needs to stop using geneforge and avernum as a sales crutch.

 

Secondly i dont think that the avernum series really need remaking. The graphics are sub par that may be true but the story and system are shinning examples of Jeffs craftsmanship, i really dont think that they can be improved. Sure playing new quests is always fun but that is what BOA is for.

 

Which brings me to my third point, what exactly will this remake impliment? I can guess with some certainty that Avernum version 2 will utilize the avadon/avernum 6 engine and the avadon/geneforge graphics. I know that Jeff is going to add in some prime quality writing and new side quests to the mix but i cant help but feel that this remake is going to feel rather flaky and predictrable, at least to those of us who have played one f the original series.

 

Now what i am saying is that i really dont think a remake of the Avernum series will work. The games had a good run and a good conclusion (i have not finished 6 yet but its looking pretty good so far) a franchise can only be dragged on for so long before it begins to feel tiring and tedious and thats what i feel is about to happen to avernum.

 

Just please take a break away from Avernum and Geneforge! finish Avadon, make a couple of sequels, mabey even do some of that inovating that Jeff hates so much. I love spiderweb software games because of all the individual care and personality that is poured into their products, but please give the old franchises a break before you go dragging them out of retirement.

 

 

 

 

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I dont have much to add to this, other than "Shouldnt it be kicking a dead cave cow?"

After all, horses were only in A3. Anyone who has played the avernum series will be more familiar with cave cows and giant lizards than horses.

 

Just thought of something that would be great. Using cave cows instead of horses in a Blades of Avernum scenario.

Now that would be a great scenario, even if the rest of it was made by a three year old.

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The issue is that Avernum is such a long series, now, that by the time you finish one trilogy, the old one needs polishing to compare. I'm a bit hazy on my timeline here, but it's been about ten years since the Avernum series was first started. Those games are starting to show their age, and it's time for a face lift.

 

After all, it's best to keep the product looking nice for the newest generation of Spiderwebbers.

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Originally Posted By: Goldenking
The issue is that Avernum is such a long series, now, that by the time you finish one trilogy, the old one needs polishing to compare. I'm a bit hazy on my timeline here, but it's been about ten years since the Avernum series was first started. Those games are starting to show their age, and it's time for a face lift.


Thats a valid point, but if Jeff did that to every game he would never have the time to make new games, he would be to busy remaking the remakes so that they stay current. I just think that the people at spiderweb need to give Avernum and Geneforge a rest for a while (preferable a long while) so that they can devote time and energy to new games.

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Originally Posted By: Masquerade
Thats a valid point, but if Jeff did that to every game he would never have the time to make new games, he would be to busy remaking the remakes so that they stay current. I just think that the people at spiderweb need to give Avernum and Geneforge a rest for a while (preferable a long while) so that they can devote time and energy to new games.


Yes, but the Avernum series has proved his commercial viability. If Avadon is a flop, why shouldn't he resort back to a tried and true cash cave cow? It certainly makes more sense than trying to continue a series that flopped, or god forbid starting another one...

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I know, and i wont condem anybody for it. The avernum series is just getting old and Spiderweb really needs some fresh air. At least by trying out new things like Avadon he has the oppertunity to attract new kinds of spiderwebbers to buy stuff from him, rather that apealing to the same group over and over again.

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There is one thing from the avernum series that I think would still be good in Avadon.

GIFTS, everyones favorite giant-intelligent-friendly-talking-spiders!

Quote:
..The avernum series is just getting old..

Theres plenty of games and other things that are older, yet are still loved by plenty of fans. No matter how old the first Avernum trilogy gets, im still going to love it.

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Jeff may be interested in money, but he's also on record as wanting to make sure that his games remain playable. An Exile-to-Avernum style upgrade is a big undertaking, but as his games have become more script-based and modular, it's likely that a remake won't take quite as long. And I'm in favor of both being able to play games on newer computers and and letting people who have overlooked Exile and Avernum get another chance to play a "new" game.

 

—Alorael, who thinks point one makes the case. The point of a remake is to take a good story and good writing and update the graphics and engine. And hey, if you don't want to play the remakes, you don't have to buy the games.

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Originally Posted By: Insanity on a stick.
There is one thing from the avernum series that I think would still be good in Avadon.
GIFTS, everyones favorite giant-intelligent-friendly-talking-spiders!
Quote:
..The avernum series is just getting old..

Theres plenty of games and other things that are older, yet are still loved by plenty of fans. No matter how old the first Avernum trilogy gets, im still going to love it.


Thats not what i ment by old i supose i should have used a different phrase, meh. I ment that the series is starting to feel drawn out and tedious. The games are chrononlogicaly old, that is true, but in a game-enjoyment sense the original trilogy is still quite "fresh" but dragging on the series for too long by introducing remakes so soon after the series conclusion could cause the game too loose its freshness.

As for the GIFTS i would love to see them in Avadon, that would be neat!

Originally Posted By: Traveling Mad
And I'm in favor of both being able to play games on newer computers and and letting people who have overlooked Exile and Avernum get another chance to play a "new" game.


I cant speak for PCs but im pretty sure that the Avernum games will work fine on most of todays new computors, at least the Exile and Avernum trilogy does work fine on my dads macintosh and its a new top of the line sort of deal, the screen is ginormous shocked

As for people overlooking exile and Avernum i think that jeff needs to put a variety of new material on the market, that way he will not only have the support of us loyal spiderwebbers but he will also have the opportunity to attract a whole new group of gamers that were previously uninterested in his games.

Im not saying that he should not remake Avernum, i just think that he should not remake it now. The point of a remake is to introduce an old idea into a new enviroment and/or audience. I think that jeff needs to focus more on creating a totally new and fresh product in order to attract a new audience before remaking the trilogy.

Besides the main selling point of remakes is nostalgia, and at the moment Avernum is still relativly new, personally i don't believe that the remakes would have any nostalgia value in them.

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If/When Jeff remakes the first avernum trilogy, I really hope he adds spells from the Exile series, along with bringing back bashing weapons and dual-wielding.

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Originally Posted By: Txgangsta
How different are exile and avernum from each other?


there are some differences on storyline/history and landscape and on spells and party (exile 6 avernum 4) and few other things.

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There are complete engine differences, which means equipment, spells, character number, stats, how stats work, terrain, and so on and so forth are all difference. By plot, they're identical with a few added quests in Avernum and one new significant area in A1. They're faithful remakes.

 

The only changes the story are tiny inconsistencies, like Grahk's Peninsula's discovery date being long after the calendar added in Avernum.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't even think the dragon gender issues got patched up in Avernum.

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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
The dragon gender issues were worsened by Avernum.
Lies! The dragons are supposed to be able to change their genders at will!
Makes playing Exile and Avernum more entertaining anyways.

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Originally Posted By: Insanity on a Stick
Lies! The dragons are supposed to be able to change their genders at will!
Makes playing Exile and Avernum more entertaining anyways.


Morning:: Oh mighty Lord *insert dragon name here* blaa-blaa-blaa.

Evening Oh mighty Lord *insert dragon name* blaa-bl....... FWOOSH peasant/soldier got ashed and dragon says I am female so call me Mistress not Lord.

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If Jeff does remake the first Avernum trilogy I don't think any of us won't part with our money for it. I mean most of us, jumped at Avernum for the 3D terrain, the improvements and odd new addition to the game.

 

So I think we'd be just as happy with jumping on the bandwagon for 3D characters as well...

 

EDIT: Ack! Epic revival sorry folks, forgot to check the dates.

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There are a significant number of people here who prefer Exile to Avernum. Some bought Avernum anyway; some, like me, didn't. In terms of SW customers in general, we are a small minority, but on these boards we are a large minority. (It was something like 55-45 on the poll I ran 4 years ago, and it's probably shifted further towards Avernum since then as the forum population has shifted.)

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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
There are a significant number of people here who prefer Exile to Avernum. [...] (It was something like 55-45 on the poll I ran 4 years ago


Yeah no, that's not significant at all, especially when you consider the fact that the forums are in no way representative of the majority of Jeff's clientèle.

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I was one of those oldbies that prefered Exile to Avernum. Kinda still do, a little. But I'm coming around to the Avernum side of things. My favorite game now is Avernum 6. I tried to hold true to Exile, but I'm a realist and knew that Avernum was the future. Now for those of you who say that you prefer the first Avernum Trilogy to the upcoming improved version...let's see what you'll be saying in 3 or 4 years! cool

 

 

Post #460

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Why would you like Avernum 6 so much? You

Click to reveal..
died in it,
remember? Or maybe you dont, or maybe there should be... Cheese! For everyone!

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Originally Posted By: Dantius
Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
There are a significant number of people here who prefer Exile to Avernum. [...] (It was something like 55-45 on the poll I ran 4 years ago


Yeah no, that's not significant at all, especially when you consider the fact that the forums are in no way representative of the majority of Jeff's clientèle.


Emphasis added, making your point less than valid. Also, Slarty addressed your point pretty much directly in the part of his post you neglected to quote:

Quote:

In terms of SW customers in general, we are a small minority.

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Thank you, Nikki. I understand being quoted out of context, but responding to one sentence with a point that was already addressed two sentences later is a little ridiculous.

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Originally Posted By: Jeff Vogel
Total Copies Sold of Geneforge 4 as of March 13, 2009: 3979.
Total Gross Sales Geneforge 4 as of March 13, 2009: $111412.

Hm. We're a minority, but we're not exactly an insignificant minority. We're at least a few percent of Jeff's customer base.

—Alorael, who notes that the total Spiderweb membership is now well over the number of sales. And the total number of members who have ever registered, including many bots, is several times larger.

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Originally Posted By: Kekekinetics
Originally Posted By: Jeff Vogel
Total Copies Sold of Geneforge 4 as of March 13, 2009: 3979.
Total Gross Sales Geneforge 4 as of March 13, 2009: $111412.

Hm. We're a minority, but we're not exactly an insignificant minority. We're at least a few percent of Jeff's customer base.

—Alorael, who notes that the total Spiderweb membership is now well over the number of sales. And the total number of members who have ever registered, including many bots, is several times larger.


Also there are probably quite a few members (I, myself count among their number) who are registered on the forums but have never bought Geneforge 4. The only Geneforge game I have bought was Geneforge 1. By comparison, the only Exile/Avernum game that I haven't bought (yet!) is Avernum 6. grin
I also haven't bought Nethergate: Resurrection. This happens to be the only game from Spiderweb Software that I have absolutely NO intention of buying. No reason besides I never really got into the original to begin with. cool


Post # 461

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I think both versions of Nethergate are quite good. It depends upon your personal taste of course. You will need to get the hang of a slightly different magic system but that is no real hassle.

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Apparently this discussion has been raging as I've been attempting to soothe my Avernum addition with Geneforge. Not a wise decision. The good versus bad thing started to annoy pretty early on, especially as I didn't see everything as black and white as my decisions made me out to be. Switching to the first Avernum trilogy was supposed to be a pleasant compromise, or so I thought. I saw this post, gleaned its meaning and had to comment. Forgive the snarkiness ... 7 sliths did this to me.

 

As a member of that rare group called "Casual female RPGers", I have to say I played about 25 minutes of the demo of A3 and turned it off. Please, Jeff, please, for the love of all that's holy, remake that trilogy. I, for one, would love A1-A3 updated to at least match A4-A6.

 

1. The engine was PAINFUL, people, PAINFUL. The "not having the entire screen available to your sight as you went around corners" was downright stupid. Why people pined for the indoor/outdoor thing is beyond me. And I had to put on my glasses to see my party. Grr ...

 

2. No matter how I tried, I couldn't figure out how to distribute my skill points. Especially irritating when I had to reload arrows for my archer Nephil, had no arrows, but had failed to drop any points into melee weapons when creating him. Where's the 'train' button?!

 

3. Not automatically healing when entering towns blew as well. I get it if some singleton on torment wants to torture him/herself, but I'd really like to enjoy the story and kick back. Please make it an option on the preferences, if you must.

 

4. Finally, what happened to shift+D? I saw the character editor on the menu, but being able to access it in A4-A6 was so much more user-friendly. Especially after running out of juice in several battles in A4-A6 -- "iamdrained", indeed ...

 

I look forward to the remakes ... I'll be the first in line to buy my trilogy. With the expansiveness of the first trilogy at Jeff's disposal, I cannot WAIT to see the amazing product! smile

 

MissSea =)

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1) You mean when you walk around in real life you can see around corners before you get there? How cool!

 

2) You must be trained. Go into a room with a trainer and they will train you. There's one in that fort you start at, as well as major towns.

 

3) I can understand here. Going into a town should heal you, not roaming aimlessly in the wild.

 

4) Its a bit slower, but it encourages me not to cheat. Its nothing to throw a tantrum over, nevertheless.

 

I played all the geneforges before the avernums, and then started avernum at 4. After beating A5, I decided to grab A1-3. They are a totally different game. The graphics are simpler, but A3 is still the best avernum game Jeff made. You have to learn how to play these games before your going to be good at it.

 

I originally left like you did. I downloaded A1-A3 long before I bought them. I didn't understand where I even was half the time. Once you figure out how to work the game, you'll find they're easily as good as the rest of the avernum series (not including A4, it sucked).

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I can't fix engine dislike, but some are choices. You train only in training halls, where the "Info" button becomes the "Train" button. You don't heal upon entering towns, but you do heal while wandering around. I actually prefer that, as having to retreat to a town to recharge in A4-6 is sometimes quite an unnecessary trek. (Of course, I also happily use the healing and recharging debug codes instead; I don't think anyone prefers not having a console.)

 

—Alorael, who has actually never used the "rest" command in A1-3. Healing is fast enough outdoors that it's never necessary, and he rarely reaches towns with damage left on his characters anyway.

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Tx, I agree. I adore the old engine, in just about all aspects. I actually much prefer not having the shift-D console: it's much too tempting, and I always end up cheating just I bit more than I want to. A2 and A3 are some of my favorite games of all time. I also really like the keypad navigation, the indoor v. outdoor setup, the graphics, ...

 

I take every chance to rave about it. Not that I hate the new engine.

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The Avernum games inspired by Geneforge, A4 thru A6, are certainly more streamlined, whether you like that or not. I thought the original three were quite good. It all depends on your personal taste.

All games worth playing have a learning curve, that is just the way it goes. Advice on how to play will be found in this forum.

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Originally Posted By: Txgangsta
1) You mean when you walk around in real life you can see around corners before you get there? How cool!


Please don't be snarky. I'm providing a response to the original post about remaking A3. And I never said not seeing around corners before I got there. It's after I've already seen around corners that bothers me.

Originally Posted By: Txgangsta
4) Its a bit slower, but it encourages me not to cheat. Its nothing to throw a tantrum over, nevertheless.


This is not a tantrum. A tantrum is watching a grown man crying and making a scene because the local Game Stop didn't have a copy of Halo 3 he had preordered. Seriously, this guy looked at least 40. <SIGH>

And I like cheating. laugh Except on tests. Or your marriage. Ever.

After reading the above comments, I will go back and try again. But perhaps Ishad said it best: It all depends on your personal taste. I'm hoping I like the taste of the remake more than the original! smile

-MissSea

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I was over-exaggerating things in my last post, as I thought you were doing as well. You said the game was completely unplayable and whatnot, so I continued the extremes.

 

My first point was only to get the reality of the point across. I find not being able to see around corners more real than otherwise. I'm sorry if I seemed impudent.

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My apologies as well ... perhaps I should cut and paste and move this misunderstanding to the conversation in the Avadon forums re: language usage? wink

 

And it's not unplayable. The learning curve is just ... sharper than I had anticipated. I forget that Jeff modified the gameplay between titles to adjust for feedback. Just because I'm playing them in reverse order doesn't mean the entire system is backwards as well. smile

 

-MissSea

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