After Avernum series

[Alorael at Large]

That's a pretty blandly categorical rejection. Why not?

 

—Alorael, who finds an appeal in old games. Granted, some are just terrible, but some just run on a different sort of aesthetic and balance than most current games. For one thing, the tables of tables of tables on which you roll what to roll have gone out of style, and they really did have a certain style to them.

[The Mystic]

Good point. I'd rather play games that have graphics that look like (self-censored) yet play great, as opposed to games with great graphics that play like (self-censored).

[Chidar_K_]

My minimum requirement for graphics is that they do their job. ASCII graphics can be sometimes better than 20x60 resolution drawn graphics.

[Firecage]

Graphics aint all that. Have you tried some of the newest games with super 3D graphics? They suck. Sometimes I actually like text rpg's

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: lordofdc

Have you tried some of the newest games with super 3D graphics? They suck.

Precisely my point. Nearly all games fall into one of two categories: Games with good graphics; and games with good plot. It's very rare indeed when you have a game that has both.

[Firecage]

True....so very very true....

[Alorael at Large]

I am unconvinced. I think games fall into categories of good graphics and bad graphics, usually based on budget, and also into categories of good and bad plots. Most games are in the bad plot group. In fact, most games with bad graphics are also just bad games. The ones that can load up on expensive flashy bits are often at least mediocre games.

 

Spiderweb's games have simple graphics but manage to be very good games. (I'm not sold on the plots, although they've been improving. Look at A2 and there's hardly any plot at all, just well-made minor NPCs in a well-made world.) But there are also some big-budget great games, and Jeff has even acknowledged them himself quite firmly. The problem is just the scarcity of good plots, period.

 

—Alorael, who invites you, as Jeff has invited you, to play a bunch of the classics with graphics that were (or are) perfectly good for their time and with plots to match. Rather than listing them, he'll just say that you can do worse than the Black Isle and Bioware oeuvres. And then you can play Spiderweb games too.

[Firecage]

Avernum 2 didnt have a plot? Didnt realise that.......

[Chidar_K_]

Avernum 2 did have a good plot. Anyone claiming otherwise is wrong.

[Alorael at Large]

The plot of Avernum 2 holds up through your visit with the vahnatai. Then you teleport to the surface and plot is discarded for open world. You have to defeat the Empire and bring the vahnatai in as allies. That's it; everything else is just tiny quests.

 

I don't mean to disparage the game at all. It's one of my favorites, and I don't think its plot is a flaw. I just don't think plot is what drives the game forward, and trying to sell it as such is unhelpful.

 

—Alorael, who will keep on arguing that Spiderweb runs its games on atmosphere more than on plot. Nethergate has plot as well as atmosphere, and some Geneforges do too. The later Avernums are becoming more plot-heavy. But plot isn't the point. And as a side note, plot seems to inversely with world openness. Both are considered selling points.

[Slawbug]

*nod*

 

We've had this discussion before, and we always discover after much arguing that people are using the word "plot" differently. If you use it in a very broad sense that includes the aforementioned careful detail in world and NPC creation and backstory, A2 has tremendous plot. If you use it in a narrower sense that includes only events that happen as you watch, A2's plot is fairly limited.

[Chidar_K_]

That's true. A2's plot relies heavily on small quests/world details.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Flying Death Cuttlefish

The plot of Avernum 2 holds up through your visit with the vahnatai. Then you teleport to the surface and plot is discarded for open world. You have to defeat the Empire and bring the vahnatai in as allies. That's it; everything else is just tiny quests.

I don't mean to disparage the game at all. It's one of my favorites, and I don't think its plot is a flaw. I just don't think plot is what drives the game forward, and trying to sell it as such is unhelpful.

—Alorael, who will keep on arguing that Spiderweb runs its games on atmosphere more than on plot. Nethergate has plot as well as atmosphere, and some Geneforges do too. The later Avernums are becoming more plot-heavy. But plot isn't the point. And as a side note, plot seems to inversely with world openness. Both are considered selling points.

Yes. It's almost as if Jeff wrote a beautiful, coherent plot all the way through chapters 1-3, but at 4 just got lazy and said "Screw it, I'll just remake Avernum from here on out, change up some dialogue, and mess with monsters. "

[Alorael at Large]

No, that's not it at all. Chapter 1 is Avernum as usual, but with more restricted area. Chapter 2 is a departure from just about everything else in the series (except, maybe, Za-Khazi Run), but it isn't plot-heavy. Plot driven, yes, but all it is is a well-executed, atmospheric, one-way run through a hostile, lonely wilderness. Chapter 3 is an intriguing first contact with the vahnatai, and at least there you have a plot of sorts to work with. There are these powerful, strange beings. They could help Avernum. You want to make friends. Making friends, however, is the same quest style of A1.

 

There is no beautiful, coherent plot. There is a driving plot for the whole game that shows up in the broad strokes more than in A1 simply because you start with motivation beyond, "Hmm, I'm exiled. What shall I do?" The driving plot mostly takes a back seat while you work through the many little quests to save the kingdom.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't even think Dark Waters could hold up as a game. It could be larger (ZKR again), but it probably does as much as it can as an interlude in a largely different game.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Alorael

—Alorael, who doesn't even think Dark Waters could hold up as a game.

Dikiyoba thinks we've seen Jeff try that twice now (Za-Khazi, A5) and neither fares well against the original.

[Alorael at Large]

Za-Khazi isn't a game. A5 is, but A5 is very different. The Howling Depths are maybe the most Dark Waters-like, and even they feel very different: the focus is on pursuit rather than isolation.

 

—Alorael, who actually thinks A5 can give A2 quite a run for its money. It just shines in very different ways. And Dark Waters, individually, is probably better than any individual part of A5.

[Sss-Chah]

and apparently, people are also using the word "steampunk" differently. i'm not talking about a game with subpar graphics.

[The Knight Who Said Ni]

All the Avernum graphics are still just like new! At least for me they are.

[Android]

Whoa!

Someones talking about remakes!

I dunno where to start to look for credible referances so I´m just going to ask here!

Is JV planning to remake more games?

[Acky]

He has said he's going to remake A1-3 after he makes the "new game" so give or take two years. After that, he may update the Geneforge series, or another remake of Nethergate. The latter statement is pure speculation and is in no way a credible representation of what Jeff has said in the past.

 

He's also said that he might make a prequel to Avernum 1, about the very, very first explorations of the underworld.

[Slawbug]

At this point, it would almost make sense to wait until Apple makes another major CPU/OS shift. Between the PowerPC, OS X, and Intel shifts, they've been leaving old programs in the dust about every 5-6 years now.

[Cryomancer]

Personally, I'd just be happy with E1 and E2 being remade with E3's engine...

 

I think there's always the possibility of more avernum games. Not until avernum is completely and irrevocably obliterated of all life and possibility of life would there cease to be adventures there.

 

But I do think a prequel would be really cool. Things to do, in no particular order: 1)find a place to stick the undesirables of Avernum...find the Abyss, and then force the undesirables to go there. 2) Defeat/Imprison Grah-Hoth. 3) Create/establish the Tower of Magi. 4) Find a place for major settlements, like the Castle, and instate Micah as King. 5) Cleanse the Eastern Gallery and Great cave of hostiles so towns can be built. 6) Negotiate with the dragons in Exile so they don't kill everyone on a whim. 7) Explore smaller cave passages off from Eastern Gallery and Great Cave/report on the findings there and possibility of settlement (thinking mostly of Northern Avernum, w/ Formello and Ft. Draco) 8) beginning of war with sliths, and the discovery of friendly sliths, and formation of gnass

 

--any number of smaller quests. There could be lots to do!

[saladin]

a remake of a1-a3 would be great

[Randomizer]

Avernum is the remake of Exile. Jeff will probably never go back to the Exile game engine. Can't positively say never because Jeff changes his mind.

[Android]

I guess making a prequel, as he talks about could mean two things, both of them very interesting.

 

First, the unlikely one, to be part of Thralnis expedition.

It´s quite possible he has a far clearer image of the this era of Avernum than the he has ever given up in the games.

Thralni disappeared in the waterfall area didnt he?

The rest of his team died in the spiral crypt?

I think a game about this could be very interesting.

So long since I played these games.

 

The other would be what you talk about, after the Empire starts using Avernum as a prison. More or less in line with his earlier work, just A minus 1 or something.

 

Edit: Less than a week between posts! I have to stop myself off, before I lose control.

[Slawbug]

We know a bit more than that, in fact:

 

http://encyclopedia.ermarian.net/wiki/First_Expedition

[Android]

Impressive.

Is some of that information from games the later game(4 and up)?

I have only played the first three, maybe seven or eight years ago, and my memory of these things is not so good.

I seemed to remember that Thralni was the only named character, and the leader of the group, don´t know how I missed those others.

[Slawbug]

Nope. Almost all of it, or possibly all of it, comes from Exile/Avernum 1. There might be some from Exile 2, not sure about that.

 

Thralni IS mentioned a lot more. Karzoth is mentioned once or maybe twice (by name), and Marianne is only mentioned once, I think. Grahk's name is just on a single signpost.