After Avernum series

[Firecage]

Welp. I have been wondering. If new avernum games gets created somewhere in the future(I would guese about 10 years). What would you guys want to see? Personally. I would rather not see an avernum 7. Everything just feels done in avernum 6. I would like prequels instead. I would actually like to see something like this:

 

Avernum: The first expedition: The story of those lot who first came and explored the caves.

 

Avernum: The first settlers: Well. Basicly the first people who came to live in avernum. Or the first lot. Where you basicly have to defend your new home against the various dangers. Also helping to defeat beings like Gra'hoth, ect.

[*i]

Jeff has stated he intends to remake Avernum 1-3 in the future.

[Randomizer]

Maybe in 5 years he might make a prequel set in the distant past before Avernum 1.

 

The First Expedition is a known end in that everyone dies.

[Alorael at Large]

I think the First Expedition could still be a good game. In particular, all that's known is that everyone knows the First Expedition was slaughtered to a man. Some who went native with the sliths or started a colony somewhere on their own? Some who escaped and were covered up as an embarrassing failure by the Empire? Possible.

 

—Alorael, who could also see interesting games coming out of the rise of the Empire, or even resistance to such a rise.

[Chidar_K_]

I hope Jeff's next game will be a scifi rpg with thrice as complex skill system as in A6.

[Firecage]

Yes, that would be interesting, but it shouldnt be so complex that it chases people away from the game.

[Chidar_K_]

It should be layered so that newbies can allocate their skills easily and effectively but advanced players would have a lot room for tweaking and optimizing.

[Firecage]

Yah. That sounds rather cool to me. That would be nice.

[Demseinwetter]

Well, in the interview on http://www.1up.com/do/minisite?cId=3176689 Jeff talks about new classes in the new game. Four classes and three characters, that's insane! What can one man do, really... Well, that is going to be very exciting, but I think one should also look forward to the Avernum 1 to 3 makeovers. The future is bright.

[Sss-Chah]

we already know jeff's thinking of making prequels. i'm thinking that they'll have something to do with how avernum turned from "hey, there are about 5 of us here and those demons and lizard people don't really like us" to "yeah, we're a fairly powerful kingdom, so let's try to help the people who come through the portal by giving them money so they can start a new life here."

[Firecage]

Yah, but I wonder how many prequels there will be......

[Sss-Chah]

probably not too many, maybe like one or two.

[madrigan]

I'd rather see an Avernum 7 taking place perhaps a hundred years after Avernum 6, with the option of playing as Avernite adventurers, horde troops, or followers of Melanchion.

 

But I realize Jeff really doesn't want to continue the story forward.

[Sss-Chah]

maybe he'll do a spin off eventually. or maybe he'll just do a third trilogy, even though he said he wouldn't.

[Firecage]

No, personally(like I already said) Avernum feels done for me with Avernum 6. Like I finally decided the fate of avernum....

[Sss-Chah]

yeah, but if i remember correctly, exile 3 was supposed to be the end

[Firecage]

Yah, but it was the end, of Exile. It got remade into Avernum. Lol.

[ParsnipBake]

I sniffed around looking for games recently, and settled with A6. I looked at getting a bigger (in terms of dev) game, but in someways I find the fact that Jeff has limited money and resources to chuck into the game has actually done him some favours.

No voice acting for one. I'm a big fan of the old Fighting Fantasy gamebooks if anyone knows about them. I played them growing up in the eighties, and subsequently I feel right at home kicking back and reading text without having to listen to someone else's take on what is ultimately MY fantasy.

The graphics also hark back quite a bit, even in A6, which I feel right at home with. Nothing flashy. I find a lot of games these days ram graphics down your throat, and force their take on a game. No room for the ol' 'Imagination' (spoken in random French accent for no reason whatsoever).

Those two things combined with a stellar story which doesn't take itself too seriously (Jeff's sense of humour shines through I think...not that I've met him, but I can guess), a nice juicy stat system (which I'm still getting to grips with) and some simple wind sound effects, all gel together to make a very appealing game.

 

I'm so happy that games like this exist. Look forward to what's in store around the corner: )

[Alorael at Large]

Just so we're all on the same page, Jeff has said he has considered sequels and might make one in a few years. They're not even in the pre-development stage.

 

—Alorael, who thinks both Jeff and the fans are very happy to see something really new. It's been a while.

[Slawbug]

Nine years, right?

[Firecage]

Nah, would guese ten years.

[Alorael at Large]

Eight years, actually. Geneforge came out in December 2001.

 

—Alorael, who strongly recalls the game being released in the summer of 2002. He had to check the internet archive to make sure he was wrong. It was indeed a winter release.

[Firecage]

Well....here where I live December is summer, so you were partially right anyway,

[goblindolf]

A presequel to A1 where you have to find a place to put the undesirables could be cool.

 

I would like to see a new world from jeff though. I liked nethergate a lot, but it doesnt look like its getting a sequel, maybe something else loosely based on history.

[Firecage]

Yah. Having to actually find avernum would be nice.....Also, I wonder how a sequel of Nethergate wouldve been like.....

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: lordofdc

Also, I wonder how a sequel of Nethergate wouldve been like.....

Basically, Jeff would've had to write two games: one based on the Celt ending, and one based on the Roman ending.

[Jerakeen]

Aren't they both more or less the same?

[Rupert]

Indeed they are - Nethergate is just one story, told from two perspectives. Still, given the ending, it's difficult to envisage how a sequel could be made and keep with continuity, unless you went all Highlander 2 on it. It would just be more interesting to see a completely new series rather than the same ones done to death.

[PhysWiz]

I much prefer the combat system of AV 4-6 to that of 1-3. I am really looking forward to the remakes. I generally agree with ParsnipBake about the graphics etc. Don't waste time and energy trying to match Halo etc. I much prefer a good storyline and more games!

 

One thing I really like about the Avernum series is the fact that you have a group of characters which can then specialize and work as a team. RPGs where you only have one character disappoint me. I have only played the Avernum games on Spiderweb. Can anyone tell me if the other Spiderweb games have multiple characters? I don't mean temporary characters pre created.

[Lilith]

You can have a party of four characters in Nethergate as well. In Geneforge, you only have one main character plus the creations you make.

[Øther]

And you can choose to control hose creations if you want to.

[Alorael at Large]

Exile lets you create a party of six. Avernum gives you four. Nethergate gives you four permanent characters, your choice of two pre-made characters partway through the game that you can then customize as they gain experience just like any other character, and an assortment of sixth-slot characters who join temporarily.

 

Geneforge is a bit different. You have one character. You can also have temporary allies. The big thing, though, is shaping creatures. They're premade in that their base stats and bonuses from levels are set, although you can tweak slightly. They're permanent unless they are killed or you choose to discard them. The choice is not so much in how to use your creations but in which and how many creations to make.

 

—Alorael, who would put Geneforge in the one-character camp anyway. You have only one inventory, only one spellcaster, and only one you. The other creations are all fairly limited, though often powerful, straight combat help.

[Vent]

After Avernum? A first point is as I'm playing the 6 and didn't play the whole series but only some, I got the feeling it was time to switch to something else. I get a strong feeling of replaying the 5 when playing the beginning of 6.

 

New system, new classes, new skills, new fight system, all those excitement are missing to the series and a fresh new approach would be great.

 

About the party or not:

• I vote strongly for party, they allow much more diversity and offer potentially much better fights than with a single character.
• But a switch to party with companions would be very welcome. Companions require much more time to develop their characters, their stories and relationship but they can add so much to the mood.
• A mix system like seems have Nethergate (I have the CD but never tried it) seems rather interesting. I like temporary companions that join and left according to story and quests developments. Well when those companions are also developed, when they are only pieces of wood this doesn't add much.
• I also like companions you choose from a roster. And I like smaller party pick among a roster constantly available without to have to worry about xp of companions waiting in the roster.
• Another point about party, party splitting, for exploration and fights. A great tool for designing interesting puzzles. And even better with a game based on roster constantly available.

But a big party involves many problems:

• The problem is managing the big party during exploring mode.
• And if to manage this you choose make two distinct mode, explore mode and fight mode, then the problem is to manage the switch and continue have a careful tuning of fights.
• And this switch require not only a mode switch but also an area switch to have explore area and different fight area to fit a large party during fights.
• A great point would be to invent a new system allowing bigger parties but I don't see many solutions. BG series like with a bigger scale than Avernum allows 6 and not more. 3D or scale like Avernum won't allow much more than 4. And systems based on party icon/character switch to different area during fights are all similar with negative and positive points.

Despite all the problems involved I would vote for having bigger party than 4 and use only one character or few during exploration mode and switch to different area for fights with bigger party like 6 to 8. But I don't know if this could attract some younger players.

 

About a SF thematic it's a good idea because most CRPG use a Fantasy setup but for me SF is a more sensible subject that is quite more difficult than Fantasy to write well.

[Firecage]

Wow....those are some really great points dude. I doubt most people wouldve put it that good.

[Vent]

Cough cough, huu thanks, it's cool you could get over the (probable) very approximative English.

[Student of Trinity]

Slightly non-standard English is no problem when you've made the effort to have correct spelling, punctuation, and paragraphs. Plenty of native English speakers fail to do that, and produce posts that are much harder to read.

 

I would also like to see an SF game. According to the controversial half-baked theory I advanced in another thread recently, about the true and essential difference between fantasy and SF, SF must be a better fit for a CRPG than fantasy, anyway. A simple CRPG engine really does have definitive laws, after all, that do not bend to the whim of the player.

 

One thing that has occurred to me recently is that Jeff's recent games have tended to involve serious themes of some kind. Geneforge had its dangerous power theme, and A5 and 6 introduced struggle for limited resources into the previously carefree fantasy mayhem of Avernum. I'm thinking that maybe Jeff has found it useful to include something like that in his games. Whether it helps inspire game elements, or just keeps him motivated, or he just thinks it's cool, I don't know. But I'd bet a small beer that his next game will have something comparable, something that you could write an adequately solemn little college essay on if you were desperate for a topic.

 

If I had to make a pool entry, at long odds, I'd guess he might actually work in something that would somehow be an allegory for the intellectual property and game design issues that he's been thinking so much about lately in real life. Maybe a cyberpunk theme would work well, here.

[Randomizer]

Jeff would likely not want to spend the money, but a Phil Foglio illustrated steampunk game would be interesting. You could be warrior, thief, or mad scientist as character classes out to takeover or defend the world.

[Slawbug]

I wonder if that parody game is still in the works. That's the one I'd be most excited to see from Jeff, I think.

[Alorael at Large]

Of course, a true parody would have to be either painfully short or so long that only procedural generation could possibly cover it. Either way it should be less work than a regular game.

 

—Alorael, who would be happy to see a parody game as long as it also stood as a game on its own merits. That's a tall order, though, and making the game sell as well would be tough. He suspects Jeff is steering clear of such fiscally dangerous waters in search of his next cash cow.

[Kreador]

So a parody SF game ala the classic PnP RPG Paranoia? Anyone for some hot fun?

 

Clearly SF themes are seeing a revival across the RPG spectrum as WotC is releasing a Gamma World world-pack for the new D&D 4E system. (For those who may not have been around in ancient days before computers could even do graphics, Gamma World was a post-apocalyptic PnP RPG where the mutant and "pure blood" societies were always at war.)

[Student of Trinity]

Unfortunately, Gamma World kind of sucked. It didn't have much in the way of leveling, and the only real way to gain power was to find high tech weapons. This meant that the game did very little to run itself, since all the long-term potential depended entirely on what the gamemaster gave you for lewt, and how vindictive he then was about having your ancient tech break down on you or run out of power. You could make a great campaign if you had great story ideas, of course, but the game mechanics didn't really help much, past the initial thrill of being able to play a frikkin mutant alligator if you wanted.

 

The bad mutations that you could sometimes get were kind of cool. All I remember was 'poor dual brain'. There was a good mutation that gave you a good second brain, though I don't remember how this really helped, but the bad second brain from PDB would take over at awkward times, and make you do dumb things. This had a lot of potential.

 

Gamma World was actually a reworking of an earlier game called Metamorphosis: Alpha to Omega. Metamorphosis: Alpha, as it was known for short, had most of the same mechanics, but was set in a damaged generation spaceship, instead of on a post-nuclear Earth.

[madrigan]

Maybe Jeff could license Steve Jackson's Munchkin and make a parody RPG out of that. That would cost a lot of money, though. Although I'm thinking that if he wants to do a serious S-F game, it is going to cost a lot anyway because he will need to buy a lot of new graphics.

[Randomizer]

I remember Gamma World. I was running with a friend and trying to figure out how to use high tech weapons. No matter how far away from me my friend was, he still took massive amounts of damage whenever I failed to figure out how to use the weapon. He really hated the game's charts.

[dave s]

I wouldn't mind a game where the pcs have some personality. Maybe let one character be a blank slate, but other party members actually feel like real people, ala Baldur's Gate.

 

I am an Avernum only guy myself. I just don't feel at this point I could go back and play the early geneforge games, after playing the more refined later avernum games. Same way playing Avernum 1 after playing 2 & 3 just isn't as good.Or 4 after 5.

 

Sci Fi would be cool, but nothing wrong with fantasy. Avernum was an interesting, unique world. Phantasy Star successfully mixed the two, it can be done.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: dave s

I just don't feel at this point I could go back and play the early geneforge games, after playing the more refined later avernum games.

G4 and G5 aren't that much different from A5 and A6 in terms of the engine/features. Honestly, it was far more annoying to move around in A5 than in G4 or G5.

Dikiyoba has not played A6 and so cannot say anything about it.

[Kreador]

As far as actual RPG elements in SF RPGs went, I think Traveler had a much better overall game system.

 

It would be interesting, however, to see how Wizards of the Coast is handling all of the mutation elements and such in relaunching Gamma World as a D&D 4E expansion world. The game mechanics were a major reason why my old gaming group dropped our Gamma World campaign after only half-a-dozen sessions.

 

That was also about the time Champions came out, and being comic book geeks, we dove into that instead. I have a box full of character sheets and campaign notes and graph paper filled with scribbles around somewhere, though.

 

One other technical/tactical change that came about with the various Steve Jackson games, though, was the switch to a hex map system rather than a square map. It removes the diagonal movement range adjustment. It would be interesting to see if Jeff could implement that without great difficulty in whatever he does next.

[Student of Trinity]

Ugh, I played Traveller once, and its combat system was abominable. Since damage was taken from one of your primary abilities, rather than a single Health score, it was difficult to put an enemy completely out of action, but it was easy to have your character rendered very ineffective by a minor wound. So combat managed to be both indecisive and unforgiving.

 

The only system I've liked less was that of a game called Stormbringer, an FRPG set in the world of Michael Moorcock's Elric series. It had such a prominent system of maiming and scarring that our party of bold heroes looked more like a spare parts bank after only a couple of sessions, and we were actually losing ability through permanent wound effects faster than we were gaining it through XP and loot.

[Locmaar]

LOL. I'd completely forgotten about Stormbringer.

[Lilith]

i'm so glad i didn't seriously get into tabletop rpgs until people had learned to make game systems that didn't suck

[Sss-Chah]

i wouldn't play a steam punk game.