Reflections on A6 (SPOILERS)

[*i]

After having finally completed this game and seen a few of the endings, I thought I would post my thoughts on Avernum 6, and the evolution of the series overall.

 

First, I want to say my first game was E3 shortly after it was released. Fell in love with it, went back to play E2 and liked that even better. I've played each of the Avernum series games and, for the most part, I thought the remakes were successful and attracted a new audience of gamers of a different generation than those who played the Exile games.

 

For me, Avernum 6 is the most satisfying of the series. It feels like Jeff has a good engine where the skills and other aspects of game play are well balanced. Unlike the Exile series or other installments of Avernum, there are no dramatically overpowered or totally worthless skills or spells. The combat felt very fresh, original, and (for the most part) balanced. Granted, there were a few fights that I just cheated my way through because they became not fun, but you cannot please everyone.

 

As for plot, I must say this one tops the list. It strikes a balance between the open-endedness of Avernum 1 and the linearity we see in Avernum 4 and 5. It does not just feel like a mindless string of quests, but rather like the player has soon say in how the storyline should proceed. Indeed, very little is actually required compared to the entirety of the game.

 

I think the best part of the storyline is the role of the party with respect to the rest of the world. It definitely feels like the player is the main actor, but is not the only actor. The fight with Solberg is touching and the main antagonist for much of the game, the Shadow, is actively working against the party. Granted, I prefer a more dynamic world, and I think Jeff did far better than he has in previous installments in that respect.

 

So I am indeed very pleased with this game and look forward to what future adventurers Jeff decides to make.

 

* * *

 

Also, if Jeff decides to remake Avernums 1-3 with an updated engine, I do think there is much that has been learned that should be applied there. For instance, it would be nice to see characters like Erika and Solberg be a little more active in the main quests.

 

Also, I think the later games feel a little more realistic when it comes to the abilities of the party. Taking down Melanchion in A6 is quite a difficult (albeit optional) feat. The adventurers in A1 were able to tackle Haakai and Dragons alive without breaking much of a sweat. I don't know about others, but this made the game feel a little more "realistic" for me in the sense that Dragons should be well, I should be afraid to fight them alone. I hope that the remade versions will require more trickery to preserve this newfound balance in terms of the ability of the party.

[Vicheron]

I don't see why the game should be more realistic. Some fights should be tougher but your party in A1 - A3 are supposed to be legendary adventurers going on epic quests. They should at least close to the power of demon lords and wizards with the power to destroy small nations. In A1, you're supposed to kill a Haakai lord and the emperor of the known world.

[Alorael at Large]

Killing an emperor is really just a matter of bursting into the throne room with spells blazing. Killing a haakai should be harder. I have no problem with legendary deeds, but I agree with *i: even the hard fights in A1-3 are nowhere near as hard as the hard fights in the later games. The engine lacked the flexibility to provide interesting challenges rather than long slogs, and it shows.

 

—Alorael, who is also still enjoying A6 very much. It has a very, very different feel from the earlier games, and he won't just say it's better. It is extremely well done for what it is, though, and it vies for the top spot on best Spiderweb games lists.

[Vicheron]

But the emperor is protected by the aforementioned mages who have the power to destroy small nations, not to mention the fact that he would be wearing the rarest and most magically infused artifacts that can protect against enemy mages with the power to destroy small nations.

[*i]

Then why did said wizards only use Arcane Blow on me? Primarily because the engine at the time really only supported that. I'm sure if this were redone, the spells these guys would use would be a bit more powerful. Nonetheless, all those mages and protections helped Prazac none in the end.

 

Remember, you have Erika Redmark, one of the greatest wizards of her time, helping you. She can't do the assassination herself, but she could definitely provide more than just sending you there. This, again, is possible with the new engine.

 

I'm all for heroic deeds too; however, full out frontal assault on those that are described as godlike creatures seems like it is too easy. The storyline can be made far more interesting if you get to turn the weaknesses of certain characters, such as Pyrog with his arrogance, against him.

[Vicheron]

The engine was capable of plenty of scripted events but it would be no fun if you trigger an instant death event the moment you see one of Hawthorne's court wizards. Not to mention the fact that Jeff could have easily had scripted events where Erika teleports in golems/demons/spirits to help you fight Hawthorne's guards. Heck, even without any major scripted events, Jeff could have included a text box about Erika teleporting an explosive device on the other side of Hawthorne's castle the moment your party was teleported in to distract the majority of Hawthorne's forces.

 

And what about Grah Hoth? It took the five most powerful mages in Avernum to defeat him and they were only able to trap him. Your party has to kill him. How are you supposed to be able to do that if your party isn't at least close to the power of Erika, Patrick, Rone, Solberg, and Aimee/Linda? It's the same problem in A2 with Garzahd and A3 with the Vahnatai. I would say that at the very least, one of those high level adventurers has to be close in strength to a Haakai.

[Dantius]

But you don't manage to kill Rentar in A3, and not even Erika can manage it straight-up, you have to do it the long way.

[Slawbug]

"The Five" are now "The Five to Seven" -- A4 sort of halfway retconned Linda in and A6 has now retconned X in.

 

And in the straight-up fight, it should be noted, Erika had the upper hand against Rentar. It should also be noted that Rentar was not even originally described as the strongest mage of the Olgai tribe -- she was described, quite specifically, as the strongest ihrno "currently awake," which implies she was not the strongest if you count the Resting ones.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

"The Five" are now "The Five to Seven" -- A4 sort of halfway retconned Linda in and A6 has now retconned X in.

I prefer "The Fiveish"

Originally Posted By: Slarty

And in the straight-up fight, it should be noted, Erika had the upper hand against Rentar. It should also be noted that Rentar was not even originally described as the strongest mage of the Olgai tribe -- she was described, quite specifically, as the strongest ihrno "currently awake," which implies she was not the strongest if you count the Resting ones.

Plus, there are other tribes, as well. That said, being the inventor of Quickfire does say something about your powers.

[Vicheron]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

But you don't manage to kill Rentar in A3, and not even Erika can manage it straight-up, you have to do it the long way.

Rentar didn't create all the plagues by herself. She had quite a bit of help.

However, the Vahnatai are clearly extremely powerful since they were able to build several massive complexes in Valorim without anyone noticing in less than 10 years. And you pretty much take on those Vahnatai by yourself.

[Monroe]

I liked this game overall. It had it's good points and its not so good points.

 

I like how enemies have evolved over the series. At first I missed the Scry Monster spell, but then I realized that the bestiary has grown so much since the first game, it would be of little use. You rarely encounter the exact same monster more than once! Then there are the unique monsters. Bosses with names, I can't get enough of those! So many interesting little (and huge) fights, so little generic hack and slash like the original games had. It really makes battles (which I used to cheat my way through since they were so boring) much more interesting and fun for me.

 

Yes, the respawning enemies are more realistic, though I would probably prefer they weren't there. They're just a minor inconvenience anyway, more annoying than anything else.

 

I did not like the "open-endedness" in this game so much. First off, it's not really that open-ended. You unlock areas one at a time, and there was also initial confusion on areas you never got to enter, like Fort Emerald. A completionist will have difficulty with this game, as you end up being able to access a lot of areas earlier than you should and thus there is potential to mess things up before you even know what you're doing.

 

As for the story, it was awesome and terrible at the same time. By terrible, I only mean that I was sad to see the utter destruction of all the things I had grown up loving so much. I had the same reaction Lark did to the destruction of a certain artifact: "Ahhhh! Nooooo!." I was also sad to see whole cities completely abandoned, cities I had saved countless times in the past. All that work trying to tame those caves over the years... real life years... all for nothing. In the end, everyone still hates each other, and no matter who ends up in power, you get the impression it could be totally different a few years later anywar. It's as if the caves never even noticed you were there once, or six times, as the case may be. Quite the tragic ending, if you ask me. Tragic by epic proportions. Doesn't mean it was bad, though. It was good like how King Lear is good.

 

Ah, well. Looking forward to the new series. Hopefully, it invokes feeling that are just as powerful.

[*i]

Quote:

However, the Vahnatai are clearly extremely powerful since they were able to build several massive complexes in Valorim without anyone noticing in less than 10 years. And you pretty much take on those Vahnatai by yourself.

And this has consistently been my biggest complaint about the Avernum games pre-Avernum 5. There is not much of a story there beyond the history and exposition, which are pretty impressive. It is not credible to believe, in a world of supposed all-powerful archwizards and heroes, that you are (somehow almost totally unnoticed and clearly way under appreciated) demigods and all of these others are total morons, clueless boffins, or highly overrated in their actual abilities.

Okay, we occasionally get to see somebody do something, but it is rare. Rentar-Ihrno got us into Garzahd's fortress. Erika fought Rentar-Ihrno in A3. This is nice, but...that's pretty much it. Why is it that these supposed heroes sit in their pristine towers and let you do everything for them? Yes, the party should play a decisive role in the games; however, it does not always have to be a full-out party, by themselves, versus the supposedly impossible in a straight slugfest. This stretches the limits of credibility. Can Solberg be some heroic wizard if he cowers spinelessly in his tower? I think not. I'm just glad he redeemed himself in A6.

What happens in the story is not a reflection of the relative strength of the PCs, in my mind. Rather, it is a reflection on Jeff's more primitive storytelling ability at the time (which, for A1-3 goes back to the mid-1990s because of Exile 1-3). Certainly Jeff could have made more about the assassination of Hawthorne or the other events, but he did not.

Part of it was the engine was not as flexible (remember, much of this goes back to E1). Your enemies were seriously limited in what they could do. I mean, the Royal Mages in A1 just shot fireblast and arcane blow at you, spells that I could cast. If it were redone these days, you would see a lot more exotic spell work on their part. On the PCs side, the biggest thing is that it is a lot easier to die in these games. No more 0 HP saves, among other things that really biased things toward the party.

However, the major thing was the storytelling was not there. That said, I think Jeff has matured a lot in that area and I look forward to what comes in his new world.

[Monroe]

I disagree. Hiding in tower seems more realistic to me. The reasons for this were made clear by Melanchion himself in this very game. He knows that one has to be careful in order to survive, no matter how powerful they claim they are, one wrong move can get even a demigod killed (PCs included ). Gladwell knew this fact as well, the bones of wizards far greater than himself bleach on the cavefloors. Sending out adventurers to do his dirty work was a much sounder plan. Indeed, this makes him the most devious villain of all: instead of causing trouble and getting killed by mercenaries, he plays the game and hires them himself instead!

 

You say Solberg redeemed himself, but really he just made the same mistake that the countless villains you've cut down in the past have made by putting himself out there for anyone to challenge. You need to be clever to stay alive, and it took several games for many characters (and I suppose Jeff) to figure this out. Like I said before, the moral of Avernum is that you can accomplish a lot and it will barely create a figurative ripple in the caves. But I suppose the Vahnatai knew that all along.

 

I agree that the story has been more awesome, however. I also prefer the new engine to the old one. Seems cleaner, smoother. Was never a fan of outdoors anyway. Can't wait to see it in a new game.

[Vicheron]

Originally Posted By: *i

Quote:

However, the Vahnatai are clearly extremely powerful since they were able to build several massive complexes in Valorim without anyone noticing in less than 10 years. And you pretty much take on those Vahnatai by yourself.

And this has consistently been my biggest complaint about the Avernum games pre-Avernum 5. There is not much of a story there beyond the history and exposition, which are pretty impressive. It is not credible to believe, in a world of supposed all-powerful archwizards and heroes, that you are (somehow almost totally unnoticed and clearly way under appreciated) demigods and all of these others are total morons, clueless boffins, or highly overrated in their actual abilities.

Okay, we occasionally get to see somebody do something, but it is rare. Rentar-Ihrno got us into Garzahd's fortress. Erika fought Rentar-Ihrno in A3. This is nice, but...that's pretty much it. Why is it that these supposed heroes sit in their pristine towers and let you do everything for them? Yes, the party should play a decisive role in the games; however, it does not always have to be a full-out party, by themselves, versus the supposedly impossible in a straight slugfest. This stretches the limits of credibility. Can Solberg be some heroic wizard if he cowers spinelessly in his tower? I think not. I'm just glad he redeemed himself in A6.

What happens in the story is not a reflection of the relative strength of the PCs, in my mind. Rather, it is a reflection on Jeff's more primitive storytelling ability at the time (which, for A1-3 goes back to the mid-1990s because of Exile 1-3). Certainly Jeff could have made more about the assassination of Hawthorne or the other events, but he did not.

Part of it was the engine was not as flexible (remember, much of this goes back to E1). Your enemies were seriously limited in what they could do. I mean, the Royal Mages in A1 just shot fireblast and arcane blow at you, spells that I could cast. If it were redone these days, you would see a lot more exotic spell work on their part. On the PCs side, the biggest thing is that it is a lot easier to die in these games. No more 0 HP saves, among other things that really biased things toward the party.

However, the major thing was the storytelling was not there. That said, I think Jeff has matured a lot in that area and I look forward to what comes in his new world.

These major powers are working behind the scenes.

You have to remember that these games are all pretty much based on Dungeons and Dragons. In D&D, already established gods and godlike beings are always working behind the scenes. They aren't doing nothing, they're too busy try to scry their rivals to look for signs of weakness and plotting ways to destroy them while at the same time protecting themselves from their enemies, who are pretty much doing the same thing. Those powerful beings are always in some kind of stalemate where they can never really get a permanent advantage over the other. The players are new powers there to tip the balance.

That's the way it is in the Avernum series. Erika isn't sitting in her tower doing nothing. She's scrying the Empire and the Vahnatai. She's also preventing mages from the Empire from scrying Avernum. It's the same thing with Solberg. He's there trying to find the weaknesses of the enemies and at the same time, he's taking time and resources away from the enemies who are trying to hinder his efforts.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

You have to remember that these games are all pretty much based on Dungeons and Dragons. In D&D, already established gods and godlike beings are always working behind the scenes. They aren't doing nothing, they're too busy try to scry their rivals to look for signs of weakness and plotting ways to destroy them while at the same time protecting themselves from their enemies, who are pretty much doing the same thing. Those powerful beings are always in some kind of stalemate where they can never really get a permanent advantage over the other. The players are new powers there to tip the balance.

Maybe if you're talking about Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. There are other settings, like Eberron, where it's quite possible for the PCs to actually be among the biggest badasses in the world by the time they achieve a reasonably high experience level. Which is as it should be: most people have already had their fill of working for someone bigger and more important than themselves in real life.

Plus, Jeff wasn't trying to recreate D&D: far from it. If you read the release notes for Exile 1, they include his design philosophy, which starts out with "Rule 1: NO ELVES."

[Alorael at Large]

Power isn't the same as eagerness to use power. Solberg has a clearly established character, and it's one of cowardice over bravery. Haakai in the Tower of Magi? Flee to the lava fields south of Formello! War? Don't leave the tower! Don't get involved!

 

The others may be less obviously averse to exposing themselves to danger, but they have similar bents. Rentar-Ihrno doesn't go rip up Avernum herself, she sets up barriers. When she wants to avenge the vahnatai mistreated by the Empire, she does it with plagues, not direct intervention. She could go in and slaughter humans, but she doesn't. Mages don't tend to.

 

That can either be a matter of how the wizards who make it to the upper echelons of the power ladder happen to think, or it could have to do with the kinds of wizards who make it there. That kind of power seems to come from being a bookworm and an experimentalist. Those aren't the same as combat.

 

—Alorael, who gets the sense that these mages are immensely powerful and everyone knows that they're immensely powerful. Picking a fight with them is a bad idea. But they're not going to go picking fights, especially with each other, because it's a bad idea and because that's really not with their strengths lie. They can manage battles, but they're not the kind of bloodthirsty, gore-soaked savages that PCs inevitably become.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Reign in fog and filthy air

Power isn't the same as eagerness to use power. Solberg has a clearly established character, and it's one of cowardice over bravery. Haakai in the Tower of Magi? Flee to the lava fields south of Formello! War? Don't leave the tower! Don't get involved!

Yeah, I don't mind Solberg in specific too much because even the other archmages call him paranoid. By the time he actually went to his death in A6, he pretty much had a choice between going out with a bang or turning himself into a full-blown lich in the near future: he didn't have much to lose. The problem is that most of the other archmages seem to be just as inactive as he was before A5: you can handwave it away as "oh, they're doing things behind the scenes that are too difficult and important to order lesser mages to do", and that's a reasonable assumption, but leaving the reader to assume that without spelling out the sort of things they're doing is just lazy writing.

A6 does improve on this a lot. It's made very clear, for example, that Ess-Kalyn is running around with the Slith army and straight-up burning people to death wherever she sees them. Not every archmage has to be doing that, but it should be clear that they're all doing something and we should be able to get a fairly specific idea of what they're doing and why.

[Alorael at Large]

X and Linda are too wrapped up in their respective brands of insanity to do anything useful. Patrick seems to have put his more adventurous years behind him by A1. Rone is already somewhat doddering by A1 and actually only seems to pull himself together in A4, oddly enough. He's a bit puzzling, as he was a noted combatant against Grah-Hoth before A1, but okay, he's past his prime as well. Erika only cares about Erika, but she accomplishes what she wants quite handily.

 

—Alorael, who is somewhat unclear on what great tasks the wizards are supposed to accomplish and just leaving to adventurers. Or rather, which ones aren't too trivial for such accomplished mages or too dangerous for such critical Avernite assets.

[Lilith]

Okay, see, now Rone, Rone is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about. X is the crazy anvil dude and that is fine, that is his thing. It is not the best thing but it is a thing. Patrick is the sad alchemy dude and that is also an okay thing to be; he is probably developing important plants and stuff for Avernum until he kicks the bucket. This is a big job, it is an important job, he can't really just leave his fungi alone and let them overgrow his tower even if there's an emergency or everyone will regret it later. But does Rone even serve a purpose in the story? Could he not be written out of it without doing any great violence to the plot? I am pretty sure he is in the game only because he was Jeff's friend's old D&D character or something. Supposedly powerful characters who don't do anything important serve only to make the player ask "hey, what's this guy doing?". This is not a good thing for the player to be asking.

[*i]

There are two separate points here.

 

Quote:

These major powers are working behind the scenes...You have to remember that these games are all pretty much based on Dungeons and Dragons...

 

That's all well and good when your party is asked to do minor deeds. I fully understand why Erika is not off cleaning out Chitrach infestations. I also am willing to accept such gambits as doing a stealthy mission to kill some high-up general in the Empire army.

 

There should be an answer to the question as to why your party is important even though they do not have the raw power of the superiors who hire them. Further, you need to give a rational why the higher power does not simply do the task him or herself. You provide the stock issue reason, which is good enough for most cases so long as it is not used all the time.

 

Where it stretches credibility is where the act you are being asked to perform is so important and decisive that it defies logic that your high powered employer would just sit back. If the person is willing to go all-in by sending you on a high-risk mission, that person should behave accordingly. Using the stock reason for non-involvement is a dodge to get around telling a coherent story.

 

Which leads into the second point...

 

If you are going to have all powerful heroes and villains, it strains credibility to be on par with them and still receive virtually no recognition of your incredible prowess.

 

This is not to say the party should be incapable of incredible acts of heroism; indeed, they should! What they should not be capable of is fighting their way through legions of minions and then taking on the almighty villain in a brute force, frontal attack without any real outside assistance or additional cleverness on their part.

 

I do think A6 gets this right. You have the fall of the triad, the Shadow, the Impaler, and the Manburner, at the climax of the game. In no case does the party do what I just said.

 

The Shadow is a capable warrior, but is not considered to be particularly powerful. His strength lies in his trickery. The party outwits him (by destroying his teleportation crystals) and forces him to fight fair, something where he is at a disadvantage.

 

The Impaler is a superior opponent, but is weaker than he once was because of age. There is the bust into his lair to fight him meme, but here we get something good. Again, the party uses trickery to force his hand to fight them one-on-four (or one-on-however many) in a situation where the odds are far less favorable than if you attacked Formello outright.

 

The Manburner was probably the best storywise in that she was the most powerful. Finally, Solberg does an all-or-nothing act of heroism with you at his side. With your help, he takes on the most powerful of the horde's warriors, goads the Manburner into attacking directly, and, with your help, brings her down.

 

This felt satisfying to me because I did not have to strain credibility. Much more so than my party taking on Grah-Hoth, a supposed all powerful being (but in a weakened state), alone and being victorious.

[Lilith]

Can I just say at this point that I thought A6's rank system was a pretty cute little way of giving some recogntion to the fact that you're actually becoming a force to be reckoned with and people are noticing that fact? It doesn't come up in a whole lot of places, but it's still something, and by the time I got to Lieutenant I was really looking forward to my next promotion.

[Monroe]

I loved the ranking system, too, Thuryl. By lieutenant, I had hopes of being crowned the next King of Avernum by the game's end. Oh well, I guess there wasn't really that much left to rule over by then, anyway.

[*i]

The ranking system was good.

 

Rone was...well, weird. Probably a victim of too much retconning. I'm okay if you want to say that Rone is retired and just lives in the castle and advises the King or whatnot. Fine, gives him something to do, even if it is blase.

 

What's strange is, as Alorael said, his evolution. He goes from being really old and doddering in A1, to outright senile and drooling in the tin cap around his neck in A2, to dead in A3, and now somehow back as confident and involved in A4. Granted, Jeff explained the back to life part as his death being exaggerated, but the transition from being a rambling old man to being, well, useful, is not addressed.

[Vicheron]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

You have to remember that these games are all pretty much based on Dungeons and Dragons. In D&D, already established gods and godlike beings are always working behind the scenes. They aren't doing nothing, they're too busy try to scry their rivals to look for signs of weakness and plotting ways to destroy them while at the same time protecting themselves from their enemies, who are pretty much doing the same thing. Those powerful beings are always in some kind of stalemate where they can never really get a permanent advantage over the other. The players are new powers there to tip the balance.

Maybe if you're talking about Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. There are other settings, like Eberron, where it's quite possible for the PCs to actually be among the biggest badasses in the world by the time they achieve a reasonably high experience level. Which is as it should be: most people have already had their fill of working for someone bigger and more important than themselves in real life.

Plus, Jeff wasn't trying to recreate D&D: far from it. If you read the release notes for Exile 1, they include his design philosophy, which starts out with "Rule 1: NO ELVES."

That doesn't change the fact that Exile, Avernum, and even Geneforge took a lot from D&D.

Originally Posted By: *i

There are two separate points here.

Quote:

These major powers are working behind the scenes...You have to remember that these games are all pretty much based on Dungeons and Dragons...

That's all well and good when your party is asked to do minor deeds. I fully understand why Erika is not off cleaning out Chitrach infestations. I also am willing to accept such gambits as doing a stealthy mission to kill some high-up general in the Empire army.

There should be an answer to the question as to why your party is important even though they do not have the raw power of the superiors who hire them. Further, you need to give a rational why the higher power does not simply do the task him or herself. You provide the stock issue reason, which is good enough for most cases so long as it is not used all the time.

Where it stretches credibility is where the act you are being asked to perform is so important and decisive that it defies logic that your high powered employer would just sit back. If the person is willing to go all-in by sending you on a high-risk mission, that person should behave accordingly. Using the stock reason for non-involvement is a dodge to get around telling a coherent story.

Which leads into the second point...

If you are going to have all powerful heroes and villains, it strains credibility to be on par with them and still receive virtually no recognition of your incredible prowess.

This is not to say the party should be incapable of incredible acts of heroism; indeed, they should! What they should not be capable of is fighting their way through legions of minions and then taking on the almighty villain in a brute force, frontal attack without any real outside assistance or additional cleverness on their part.

I do think A6 gets this right. You have the fall of the triad, the Shadow, the Impaler, and the Manburner, at the climax of the game. In no case does the party do what I just said.

The Shadow is a capable warrior, but is not considered to be particularly powerful. His strength lies in his trickery. The party outwits him (by destroying his teleportation crystals) and forces him to fight fair, something where he is at a disadvantage.

The Impaler is a superior opponent, but is weaker than he once was because of age. There is the bust into his lair to fight him meme, but here we get something good. Again, the party uses trickery to force his hand to fight them one-on-four (or one-on-however many) in a situation where the odds are far less favorable than if you attacked Formello outright.

The Manburner was probably the best storywise in that she was the most powerful. Finally, Solberg does an all-or-nothing act of heroism with you at his side. With your help, he takes on the most powerful of the horde's warriors, goads the Manburner into attacking directly, and, with your help, brings her down.

This felt satisfying to me because I did not have to strain credibility. Much more so than my party taking on Grah-Hoth, a supposed all powerful being (but in a weakened state), alone and being victorious.

Think of the major powers as roughly equally matched nations. They're always spying on each other and repositioning their forces to prepare for or defend against an attack. However they can't really risk a full scale assault or it's mutually assured destruction or at the very least, they'll suffer enough losses for someone else to take them down.

Your party on the other hand is like mercenary army. You're certainly not as powerful as a nation, you don't have infrastructure, you don't have an economy, you don't have much resources, and your numbers aren't too great. However, these deficits also gives you an advantage since you aren't weighted down by too many things and you don't have much to lose so you can sweep into enemy territory and destroy them before they can react.

That's pretty much the way it is in all these games. If the major powers get too involved, it'll likely end in mutually assured destruction. That's why your party gets sent in.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

Think of the major powers as roughly equally matched nations. They're always spying on each other and repositioning their forces to prepare for or defend against an attack. However they can't really risk a full scale assault or it's mutually assured destruction or at the very least, they'll suffer enough losses for someone else to take them down.

Yes, you can handwave them away as doing all this, but that's what it is: a handwave. Most of the time, we don't actually see any of these machinations, and "all of this stuff is going on behind the scenes" isn't very satisfying without further elaboration.

More to the point, what narrative reason do they have to exist at all? Would Avernum 1's story actually have been any worse, or even any different, if most of the archmages had died of old age before the game began and the party was left to gather notes and artifacts from their towers and consult with wise but weak sages on how to use them?

[Alorael at Large]

In A1, with the exception of Erika, they might as well all be weak sages. I got the distinct impression from E1/A1 that Solberg wasn't exactly a force to be reckoned with. He was a tired administrator with some power who wanted to be nowhere near the trouble dumped on the ToM. He left a message for more valiant parties to get in touch and ran. X and Linda are loonies. Patrick is, well, an unimpressive archivist and alchemist. Rone is senile. They're all around for flavor, as reminders of Avernum's history before you arrive, and as quest-givers, but they aren't doers. Erika is a doer, but she doesn't care about Avernum. The only aspect of your quest that matters to her is the one she actually acts upon.

 

In A2 this remains mostly accurate. Rentar's non-involvement with your attempts to enlist vahnatai aid are somewhat baffling. Sure, she hates humans, but she could at the very least be more proactive in extracting crystal souls from the Empire's clutches. But so it goes.

 

A3? The same. Rone's dead, Patrick's dead, Solberg has become an embittered has-been (or never-was), X and Linda are still loonies, and Erika does her own thing, including helping in the climactic battle. The dragons are the other big players here, and as usual they care only about themselves. They've decided to take their shot at the Empire, and they pretty much don't care about your adventurous band.

 

The trilogy is fine. The wizards fit in because they aren't, on the whole, terribly impressive. They may know more esoteric spells than your adventurers, but for setting everyone on fire, you're not far from the top.

 

Why is Rone back and suddenly capable in A4? (Not powerful, necessarily, but he's apparently an able researcher and his mind is active in the defense of Avernum.) Yes, it's bizarre and it doesn't seem necessary except to drag in an old, familiar face (or rather name, as the face is surprisingly different). It's one error, though.

 

—Alorael, who has to ask the critical question. Which wizards are supposed to be taking on the heroic role of the party with their immense power? Erika could, but she generally does. Rentar seems lazy in A2, but she switches to antagonist just fine in A3 and A4. Her laziness doesn't help her antagonist value, but it's not a problem with heroism. Gladwell? Melanchion? They have power, but they're not altruists. Kelner? He's just an apprentice who grew up to be the last Triad member, and he's never been any great shakes as a mage, really. Who is supposed to be outshining your party but for inexplicable unwillingness to act?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Itinerant Sociopathy

In A1, with the exception of Erika, they might as well all be weak sages. I got the distinct impression from E1/A1 that Solberg wasn't exactly a force to be reckoned with. He was a tired administrator with some power who wanted to be nowhere near the trouble dumped on the ToM. He left a message for more valiant parties to get in touch and ran. X and Linda are loonies. Patrick is, well, an unimpressive archivist and alchemist. Rone is senile. They're all around for flavor, as reminders of Avernum's history before you arrive, and as quest-givers, but they aren't doers. Erika is a doer, but she doesn't care about Avernum. The only aspect of your quest that matters to her is the one she actually acts upon.

All of this would more-or-less make sense if they weren't, y'know, the same people who beat Grah-Hoth. Plus, when almost nobody besides the party is a doer, the world starts to seem a bit static no matter how many excuses you can come up with. Obviously you don't want other characters doing so many awesome things that they outshine the PCs, but it'd be nice to actually see them develop their own plans and see them through as the game progresses. Compared to previous games, A6 takes some much-appreciated steps in that direction: I'm not really complaining about A6 here.

Really, my main complaint is about the gap between what you're informed that characters can do and what you actually observe them do, which gives the player the worst of both worlds: all the powerful characters outshine the party, but you don't even get to see them do it.

[Alorael at Large]

These are the same people who beat Grah-Hoth a while ago. In A1 it actually works. These were the heroes of Avernum, but they're not heroes anymore. Now they're old men and egomaniacs, and it's up to you.

 

Why is it all up to you? Good question, still, but I think it's for lack of anyone else who can take up the problems, a standard in RPGs and games in general. The assorted magi aren't up to the task by the time you're around.

 

—Alorael, who really just sees it as another, slightly sadder version of the standard trope of the ancient hero who once defeated evil that now you must defeat. Except instead of ancient heroes, you have recent heroes who are still around. Micah was part of the demon-imprisonment as well, but he's solidly kingly and not quite valiant hero material by the time of A1. Intrepid warriors grow out of it, and intrepid magi become too old and too frail to go traipsing off in swamps and lava pits.

[Lilith]

Yeah, I was going to mention Micah but being a king is pretty much the best possible excuse for not going out on adventures so I didn't.

[Alorael at Large]

Why is being king a better excuse than being some kind of bigwig mage? They seem to be the closest thing Avernum has to nobility. Mayors come and go, but mages get to order adventurers around in perpetuity.

 

—Alorael, who has come up with a new and better handwave. As the party death screen generally implies, if you fall some other band will pick up where you left off. The games don't represent a single group's accomplishments, but rather present the legend built up out of an amalgamation of the achievements of several groups, most of which died or dissolved before making it through more than one or two heroic undertakings. Avernite mythology requires heroes, so they get fabricated. The games are all crown propaganda!

[Slawbug]

Actually, I think that's a rather elegant handwave.

 

Originally Posted By: Dantius

That said, being the inventor of Quickfire does say something about your powers.

A minor point, but one that has come up before. Rentar-Ihrno did not invent quickfire. Nobody says she did, and lots of people talk about her and about quickfire without making any such connection.

 

I think the real answer here is that Exile/Avernum was originally depicted as a magic-poor world. Sure, it had a bunch of demons and stuff, but magical resources available to humanoids were very limited. Only a small handful of mages could use the magics so common to upper-level casters in D&D. The ToM makes clear that most people are not suited to magic.

 

Adventurers are in a position to uncover magical powers more easily than most, but they are also much more likely than most to die. Most adventurers die, and your band has an incredible and unending stroke of luck, or divine favour, as you prefer.

 

I kind of agree with all of this, but I don't think it's so hard to explain. This group of mages, that imprisoned Grah-Hoth, probably did so through purely magical means. The army of minor mages, Silverio et al., distracted him, while Erika, Patrick and Rone (the only three mentioned by name with regards to the imprisoning spell) cast the spell. Solberg is never mentioned in this context, and he surely would be given his other experiences with demons (and his E2 to A2 retconning as a demonological expert, which greatly irritated me).

 

Remember that it has always been easy to toss fireballs in E/A; the real trick has been more delicate magics -- enchanting and scrying valued, teleportation revered, and transformations most difficult of all.

 

Also remember that if we actually imagine this as a fantasy-world rather than a computer game, 'power' is not just about having higher stats and being able to do extra powerful sword slashes or magic bursts or whatever -- mastering the delicate subtleties of magic would probably be far more useful against ultrapowered foes like haakai or dragons anyway.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Bilgy Bow-Builder

I kind of agree with all of this, but I don't think it's so hard to explain. This group of mages, that imprisoned Grah-Hoth, probably did so through purely magical means. The army of minor mages, Silverio et al., distracted him, while Erika, Patrick and Rone (the only three mentioned by name with regards to the imprisoning spell) cast the spell. Solberg is never mentioned in this context, and he surely would be given his other experiences with demons (and his E2 to A2 retconning as a demonological expert, which greatly irritated me).

My greatest hope for the eventual remake of the first trilogy is that Jeff brings back mindduelling in a way that's actually balanced this time.

[*i]

Quote:

That doesn't change the fact that Exile, Avernum, and even Geneforge took a lot from D&D.

You can scream D&D until you are hoarse; however, it still is a rationalization for not telling a good, compelling story and getting around the need to develop characters.

You want to use the standard trope for explaining why the party is needed, fine. I even say that it is good to use it 95 percent of the time. But, as Thuryl so eloquently points out, we never actually get to see any of this; we must simply assume this is happening.

Also, to always or nearly always use this as the reason is dull and uninspired writing. Just as the other extreme, deus ex machina, where these almighty good guys come forth and save the world because you obviously cannot yourself, is as well. All I'm asking for is a little originality and character development here. Make the world feel like a living, breathing thing with actors besides the party.

I think it is useful to bring up Chekov's Gun. Concisely, it states that an author should not bring a loaded gun onstage and have no one think of firing it. Now, I don't think authors need to follow this to the extreme, but having all of these supposedly heroic archmages around in A1 without having any of them do much of anything is a prime example. Now, we can come up with all the reasons we want for them not doing anything, these are never specifically laid out for us in a convincing way. It's us justifying bad writing and nothing more.

Conversely, good writing demands we see something pivotal to the story from these "important" characters. Erika does something, but if you really analyze it, her teleporting you to the Imperial Castle and then back could just as easily been handled with Erika dead and you completing some unfinished portal device she left behind.

I would be much more impressed if during the Grah-Hoth crisis, Solberg, Rone, and some others show up in the battle to keep him and his servants in check while you finish off the weakened demon lord with Demonslayer in hand. There, you have all of these wizards exerting their power and you still get to be the hero. How hard was that, really?

In the end, we all agree A1-3 are good games for what they are. What I am saying is that Jeff has learned a lot about developing a good story and has an engine that is more flexible. I'm hoping that, if he decides to rewrite things, he uses these skills.

[Slawbug]

The more I think about this, the more unsure I am that I agree. Saying that Exile 1 was poorly written because none of the good guy NPCs do anything is like saying that Chrono Trigger was poorly written because Crono never talks. Exile and hence Avernum drew heavily from two sources: (1) Ultima and Wizardry, and (2) the AD&D Gold Box games and their imitators. In all of those, the relative lack of NPC action and lack of character development was a given, a sort of stylistic constraint of the genre. Exile/Avernum certainly didn't break any new ground for CRPGs; however, that should not however be confused with poor writing, plotting, planning, or anything else.

[Kreador]

I'm new to these forums (and Avernum, having only played 6 thanks to recommendations from friends over on the Basilisk Games forums), but I'm not exactly new to narrative structure. *I's recommendations are interesting, but would probably require a lot more programming to work in interactive storytelling. Chekov was discussing foreshadowing in a linear narrative, and a big part of the joy of a game like Avernum is that it's not strictly linear.

 

The only way I could see it working, really, is if the programmer had other parties out there doing some of these jobs, and if you took too long, they might complete them first, or might end up dead because you had left some villain alive too long, or perhaps you could even end up meeting them and doing part of the quest together. The programming required for all of that would add a lot of development time, though. Not to mention dealing with the various possible player actions, including what if you decide to off the other would-be heroes so they don't steal your glory?

 

Also, some of these things could be answered simply by a bit of narrative showing that these opponents legends eclipsed their realities.

 

Overall, though, I've quite enjoyed playing Avernum 6. It has a good balance of challenging gameplay and interesting narration, with options of side quests to take on or not.

 

--Kreador Freeaxe

 

Kill 'em all, let the sysadmin sort 'em out.

[Alorael at Large]

I know I moved into tl;dr range, but come on. Where is the evidence that any of these mages are still heroic or should still be heroic by A1? Erika has her own purposes. Rone's old. Patrick's old. It's time for a new generation to step in.

 

—Alorael, who still doesn't see the mages as Chekhov's gun. They exist as backstory, and they serve that purpose admirably.

[Vicheron]

We don't see much of what goes behind the scenes because it's not fun. The simple fact is that this is a hack n' slash game series where combat is the core of the gameplay. If you want to see what the major powers are doing, then you should play a different kind of game.

 

The big players acquire their power through things other than fighting. Mages like Erika and Garzahd spend their time researching spells, binding spirits, creating artifacts, and studying monsters. Powerful non-magic wielding beings like Dukes and Generals spend their time training armies, creating new strategies, managing their economy, and recruiting workers.

 

Do you really care about some esoteric spell that Erika cast to send her mind into other dimensions to glean cryptic information from spirits? Do you really care about how Dorikas had to launder his money through various sources to fund his secret operations and hire skilled architects to build his forts?

[jlsgaladriel]

Quote:

The simple fact is that this is a hack n' slash game series where combat is the core of the gameplay. If you want to see what the major powers are doing, then you should play a different kind of game.

As folks have pointed out, though, this is a standard feature of most rpg campaigns, both tabletop and computer-mediated. At the end of one of the very early sets of D&D campaigns, after fighting increasingly more powerful giants and drow, one kills the avatar of a Goddess. What the heck is left to do, if one is as strong as the gods?

The brilliance of A6 is in the balance. I never found myself feeling sidelined, waiting eons for my computer allies to finish their turns so I could have mine. (There's nothing to make one feel wasted time and money like waiting for the computer to finish playing with itself.) But I also felt like Solberg was really contributing to the battle one fights alongside him. (Fight the sliths outside the horned gate without him, and this will show -- it's possible to kill them alone, but more painful, and of course the battle inside the gate is harder.)

Ultimately this balance makes for the best gameplay, imho. But this sort of balance is really very hard to create and maintain: there's a reason this is the last of the avernum series. Lacking the ability to keep that sort of balance, it's much more fun to throw realism out the window in favour of keeping the players actively involved.

[Vicheron]

Originally Posted By: jlsgaladriel

Quote:

The simple fact is that this is a hack n' slash game series where combat is the core of the gameplay. If you want to see what the major powers are doing, then you should play a different kind of game.

As folks have pointed out, though, this is a standard feature of most rpg campaigns, both tabletop and computer-mediated. At the end of one of the very early sets of D&D campaigns, after fighting increasingly more powerful giants and drow, one kills the avatar of a Goddess. What the heck is left to do, if one is as strong as the gods?

Unless you're playing a power gaming campaign, it takes at least a year for you to go from fighting goblins and orcs to fighting gods. By the time you get to the power of gods, there isn't anything left to do. That's the whole point. That's when you retire your characters and start new ones. The mechanics of a game may allow it to continue indefinitely but there's no story reason to do so.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Bilgy Bow-Builder

The more I think about this, the more unsure I am that I agree. Saying that Exile 1 was poorly written because none of the good guy NPCs do anything is like saying that Chrono Trigger was poorly written because Crono never talks. Exile and hence Avernum drew heavily from two sources: (1) Ultima and Wizardry, and (2) the AD&D Gold Box games and their imitators. In all of those, the relative lack of NPC action and lack of character development was a given, a sort of stylistic constraint of the genre. Exile/Avernum certainly didn't break any new ground for CRPGs; however, that should not however be confused with poor writing, plotting, planning, or anything else.

oh come on, this is like saying soap operas aren't poorly written because the fact that every plot point has to be re-explained every episode for the benefit of people who just started watching is a "stylistic constraint" inherent in the genre

some genres have conventions that aren't conducive to good storytelling; that doesn't make bad storytelling good

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

Do you really care about some esoteric spell that Erika cast to send her mind into other dimensions to glean cryptic information from spirits? Do you really care about how Dorikas had to launder his money through various sources to fund his secret operations and hire skilled architects to build his forts?

Yes. Yes, I definitely do. Including some more hints at that kind of thing would improve the game's atmosphere immensely.

If we don't care about what the characters are doing, why put them in the game at all?

[Vicheron]

There's already hints of that. Solberg has a scrying pool in his little tower. X has his anvil spell research. Erika's tower is full of experiments and weird stuff. Not to mention the fact that we know the Five created the cave trees and mushrooms they need to live in Avernum and they're constantly working on things to improve things.

 

What you want is more than hints. What you want is beyond the scope of these kinds of games. You want a Magic the Gathering type game where you get to play as wizards summoning and binding spirits to do battle with other wizards. You want a Civilization type game where you play as a mayor of a major town, building up his city. You want a Command and Conquer type game where you're a general commanding an army to fight the Empire invasion.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

There's already hints of that. Solberg has a scrying pool in his little tower. X has his anvil spell research. Erika's tower is full of experiments and weird stuff. Not to mention the fact that we know the Five created the cave trees and mushrooms they need to live in Avernum and they're constantly working on things to improve things.

Yes! These are all good things, and they already exist in the game. So why can't there be more of them? Is there some kind of limitation in the laws of physics where having 99 bits of atmospheric detail in a game is possible but having 100 would cause the universe to collapse into a black hole?

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

What you want is more than hints. What you want is beyond the scope of these kinds of games. You want a Magic the Gathering type game where you get to play as wizards summoning and binding spirits to do battle with other wizards. You want a Civilization type game where you play as a mayor of a major town, building up his city. You want a Command and Conquer type game where you're a general commanding an army to fight the Empire invasion.

oh okay sure just tell me exactly what i want because obviously i don't know

If what you want isn't beyond the scope of these games, you must be lacking in imagination. If everyone were like you, gaming wouldn't have progressed beyond the Atari 2600. Someone has to be pushing to expand the scope of games.

Besides, there are RPGs already out there that model active characters and a living, atmospheric world better than SW's games do. It's not as if I'm asking Jeff to part the Red Sea here.

[Slawbug]

Either way, he isn't Moses.

 

Part of this argument, I think, revolves around the value we place on atmosphere and history versus active plot. Both are components of storytelling. That I find the stories of Exile 1 and 2 more compelling, whereas *i prefers Avernum 5 and 6, suggests that I am more interested in atmosphere and he is more interested in active plot.

[Lilith]

i have literally lost track of what position everyone is arguing for any more

[jlsgaladriel]

Originally Posted By: thuryl

Besides, there are RPGs already out there that model active characters and a living, atmospheric world better than SW's games do.

I'm not really arguing the point, but I'm wondering which games did you have in mind?

Having played WOW pretty seriously for a while -- I even led a raiding guild for a bit, until I realized I wasn't having fun any more -- I know that WOW can feel pretty immersive. I wonder how much of that feeling can be chalked up to a huge art budget, though: witnessing the full moon while on a bat-flight over the spooky forest or the sunset over the bay is pretty awesome, but indie gamers rarely have the ability to evoke things visually that way. Cities populated with real people also help create atmosphere -- no non-multiplayer city has ever felt as real as Ironforge or Undercity.

I'm assuming then it's not stunning visuals you're seeking, and not a multiplayer experience. It's just a better balance of textual storytelling and gameplay? Do you have examples of games in which you think this balance is well handled?

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

So why can't there be more of them? Is there some kind of limitation in the laws of physics where having 99 bits of atmospheric detail in a game is possible but having 100 would cause the universe to collapse into a black hole?

Too much information causes a decrease in will power according to today's Wall Street Journal.

Judging from the delays in Basilisk Games' Eschalon: Book 2, adding more content to build up a world significantly delays production. There is a balance between adding background that most players seem to skip over and enough so you know what to do. It might be nice to have that as an option that you can set like difficulty level for those that want to explore and those that just want to kill something.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: jlsgaladriel

I'm assuming then it's not stunning visuals you're seeking, and not a multiplayer experience. It's just a better balance of textual storytelling and gameplay? Do you have examples of games in which you think this balance is well handled?

I'd say Fallout 2, but maybe it's an unfair comparison, since 1950s retro-futurism is a richer and more grounded basis for a setting than heroic fantasy, so there are fewer gaps that have to be filled in with details by the author. (Plus, even there, the antagonists only do a few things during the course of the game. Maybe Deus Ex would be a better example -- but again, the writers had the advantage of a pre-existing world to ground their story.)

I know that creating an atmospheric world isn't trivial, and that creating an atmospheric world with characters who seem to act intelligently and react to a player's actions is really, really hard. I'm fully aware that what I'm asking for is "while I'm at it, I want a pony"-type stuff. But that doesn't change the fact that I do want a pony.

The fact that my house can't withstand an asteroid impact is a valid criticism of its construction even if there's no way it could be built to do so with current technology.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

It might be nice to have that as an option that you can set like difficulty level for those that want to explore and those that just want to kill something.

there's already an option for that, it's called skim-reading

[Vicheron]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

There's already hints of that. Solberg has a scrying pool in his little tower. X has his anvil spell research. Erika's tower is full of experiments and weird stuff. Not to mention the fact that we know the Five created the cave trees and mushrooms they need to live in Avernum and they're constantly working on things to improve things.

Yes! These are all good things, and they already exist in the game. So why can't there be more of them? Is there some kind of limitation in the laws of physics where having 99 bits of atmospheric detail in a game is possible but having 100 would cause the universe to collapse into a black hole?

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

What you want is more than hints. What you want is beyond the scope of these kinds of games. You want a Magic the Gathering type game where you get to play as wizards summoning and binding spirits to do battle with other wizards. You want a Civilization type game where you play as a mayor of a major town, building up his city. You want a Command and Conquer type game where you're a general commanding an army to fight the Empire invasion.

oh okay sure just tell me exactly what i want because obviously i don't know

If what you want isn't beyond the scope of these games, you must be lacking in imagination. If everyone were like you, gaming wouldn't have progressed beyond the Atari 2600. Someone has to be pushing to expand the scope of games.

Besides, there are RPGs already out there that model active characters and a living, atmospheric world better than SW's games do. It's not as if I'm asking Jeff to part the Red Sea here.

I don't lack imagination at all. I simply recognize the limitations of an indie game developer that doesn't have the resources to do all the things I would want in a game. In the end, there is going to have to be a trade off between gameplay and story simply because Jeff can't put everything we want into the games and still release them at the current rate. Heck, even big budget games suffer from these problems. Just look at games like Mass Effect and Batman: Arkham Asylum, the developers clearly spent more time on the story, art, atmosphere, and characters than the gameplay.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

I don't lack imagination at all. I simply recognize the limitations of an indie game developer that doesn't have the resources to do all the things I would want in a game. In the end, there is going to have to be a trade off between gameplay and story simply because Jeff can't put everything we want into the games and still release them at the current rate. Heck, even big budget games suffer from these problems. Just look at games like Mass Effect and Batman: Arkham Asylum, the developers clearly spent more time on the story, art, atmosphere, and characters than the gameplay.

It's not up to me to choose how to spend those limited resources, though. I just throw out ideas on how the games could be improved given infinite time and money and leave it to Jeff to decide which ideas are practical. Unlike you, I trust Jeff to decide for himself which suggestions are worth implementing rather than censor myself so that he doesn't waste resources.

[Vicheron]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Originally Posted By: Vicheron

I don't lack imagination at all. I simply recognize the limitations of an indie game developer that doesn't have the resources to do all the things I would want in a game. In the end, there is going to have to be a trade off between gameplay and story simply because Jeff can't put everything we want into the games and still release them at the current rate. Heck, even big budget games suffer from these problems. Just look at games like Mass Effect and Batman: Arkham Asylum, the developers clearly spent more time on the story, art, atmosphere, and characters than the gameplay.

It's not up to me to choose how to spend those limited resources, though. I just throw out ideas on how the games could be improved given infinite time and money and leave it to Jeff to decide which ideas are practical. Unlike you, I trust Jeff to decide for himself which suggestions are worth implementing rather than censor myself so that he doesn't waste resources.

Is that what you were doing? I thought you were complaining about old games since the majority of this topic has been about the lack of exposition and story elements in Avernum/Exile 1 - 3, games that have already been published by an indie developer that lack the resources to put many of the things you want in.