Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Could someone please explain to me how you use them. I played a group of 2: meat+warrior, mage+priest. Whenever my mage attacked he automatically got swamped by every monster on the screen (engaged or otherwise) unless I hid him in a tunnel behind the meat which was not feasible most of the time. I'm assuming that in a larger group hiding the mage behind the meats would be easier, but after playing the entire game it is obvious to me that you just can't pull that off, because if there is a route, no matter how remote, between the mage and the creep, the moment my mage attacks the creep heads towards that route and flank my mage. Which eventually led to me using him as a haste heal bless only as any attack would have immediately led to his death (and AoE's are even worse). So what is the point of a Meatshield if he is not the preferred target and can't even be used as a distraction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 One meat shield can't cover much ground, but two actually provide a substantial barrier to mages. You can't protect them absolutely and all the time, but it's not too hard to keep the tide of enemies back, or at least slow down the onslaught so your mages can backpedal. —Alorael, who also thinks it helps a lot to focus fire. If an enemy is insistent on pummeling a mage, make sure it dies. Since most enemies will attack whoever attacked them last, you can also play tricks with the order of attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 still, two fighters can't stop 8 creeps that just realizes that guy in the corner is a mage because he just threw an ice rain on them and he just happened to take the last move Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Two fighters and two summons can do a pretty good job of diverting attention from your spellcasters. I suggest that you let the mage/priest spend the first couple of rounds buffing--make sure that (s)he is hasted. Send the meat shield forward--the enemy should cluster around him/her (unless ranged, of course). Meanwhile, take note of when the enemy acts. If it happens to be right after the mage, then caution is called for: focus fire on one at a time if your AoE spells (like Icy Rain) won't kill them in two shots. In the long term, it helps if your spellcasters act last in the round and your fighters act first. Thus the usual sequence is: Fighter, enemy (attacks fighter, hopefully), spellcaster. Rinse and repeat. Basically, don't invest in Quick Action or much Dex for your casters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Khoth Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Two fighters do give a decent blockage, so long as there's a decent gap between them and the mage. Moving away from a hostile character has a 3AP penalty, so if enemies have to do this twice to get to your mage, they end up not being able to actually attack, and they block each other off. Then you focus fire on the ones closest to the mage and take them down before they get another action, if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Untamed Banana Slug Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Meat shields are dead weight. Replace them with spellcasters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Nioca Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug Meat shields are dead weight. Replace them with spellcasters. And then pray to God when you get into a fight and realize everyone is squishy. Meat shields do have a use. Particularly against bosses with powerful attacks. It's generally a good idea to have at least one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug Meat shields are dead weight. don't get me wrong he was an excellent warrior ~300 every second hit at end game but he just couldn't stop anybody for long. I just had to keep shouting (figuratively speaking) 'hey, eyes up front' at the computer after every mage attack and use the warrior to hit the creep that just left melee to chase the wizard. (and tweak the cryo spear to include icy touch) Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves I suggest that you let the mage/priest spend the first couple of rounds buffing--make sure that (s)he is hasted. Of course you buff, what else would you do with a priest mage? the attacks were never very strong unless the creep had extreme weakness to an elemental attack (or distruption). Eventually at tough fights I hid the mage (after buffing before hand) behind a wall very far away from combat (less than 30 paces obviously but a lot more than 10) and just used him for healing the warrior and hasting him when the haste ended, if the other buffs expired then it was 'tough' for him. (when I reached dorikas he had 1 or 3 in priest and could buff himself) Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves In the long term, it helps if your spellcasters act last in the round and your fighters act first. Thus the usual sequence is: Fighter, enemy (attacks fighter, hopefully), spellcaster. Rinse and repeat. Basically, don't invest in Quick Action or much Dex for your casters. I guess using a nephil as a wizard and a slith with fast feet wasn't such a good idea as the gymnastics gave the nephil the extra move before the enemy but not before the slith. Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves Two fighters and two summons can do a pretty good job of diverting attention from your spellcasters. I still can't completely get why the summons are nerfed relatively to their roaming counter parts, so I used them only when direly outnumbered as they take a two turns that otherwise can be used for healing the warrior or sceaming a devious plan to get out of the current mess. Also, from the range the wizard normally was the summons didn't usually enter melee but just stood there and gawked at him, as if saying 'you wanted something?'. I realy miss the fireball from exile - cheap, very effective (except against fire retardant creatures of course) and can get rid of minions very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: avatar42 I still can't completely get why the summons are nerfed relatively to their roaming counter parts Are you sure they are? What difficulty are you playing on? If you spam summoning spells aggressively enough in earlier games that don't have a summon limit, you can basically ensure that enemies are always attacking the summoned monsters and never you. It's not usually an efficient strategy, since it takes a couple of rounds and a lot of spell points to set up, but it works. Of course, it doesn't really work in A5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody madrigan Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 You can use a melee fighter as a "meat target" instead of a meat shield. I like to give my toughest melee fighter Fast On Feet and charge him/her right into the middle of the opponents with the first attack. Usually most or all of them will surround and attack that character. Then I keep the spellcasters as far away as possible and let them blast. With this tactic you need someone to heal the melee fighter, so I don't know if it would work with two characters. But I think it would work with three, and I know it works with four. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 it definitely works with 2 you just need some wall to hide your guy behind so the monsters won't see him and try to target him (distance works as well, but not as effective). Only problem is that the fighter is to easily intimidated and most of the time just runs away when terror is cast, and most of the time he runs towards the priest revealing his location. tip: charm lasts no more than 4 turns, so if you can hide your priest from your fighter as well, a good tactic is: charge into charmer, activate mighty blow and hit, get charmed heal and haste with hidden guy, wait till charm wares off, activate mighty blow and hit, rince and repeat. So he is more correctly described as a decoy rather than a shield because he doesn't prevent anyone from reaching the priest but tries very hard to keep their attention on him. For example: 5 ogres fighting the fighter, wiard/priest hiding somewhere where he can heal but not be seen. *mage casts heal on fighter* ogre: "Hey, EHHHH, what was that noise?" fighter: *hits ogre* "Hey, eyes up front" ogre: *breaks melee running somewhere* fighter: *chases ogre* "YO STUPID, OVER HERE" *hits ogre if can reach* "I said eyes up FRONT" and so it goes every single time, even with the thrasher, where I made him come out of his lair then placed the wizard inside and blocked the way in with the fighter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Sounds like a lot of work. It might be easier just to make your caster a little less squishy and let him stand a little closer. That's what I did with my first and second PCs when I ran a party of four spellcasters. And if the summons' job is to protect the caster, then it's OK if they stay near him until an enemy approaches. It sounds as if you finished the game. I'm curious: what level did you finish at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 around 40 and somehow my fighter had 6 in minor heal while my priest had 5!!! I don't remember ever a situation where one of them was dead and the other read a book so I guess the old "bug" from A4 was never completely eliminated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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