Avernum 6 - August Update

[Randomizer]

Jeff is buried under bug reports so I'll give a brief update. Those GIFTS and chitrachs are really starting to get into everything.

 

Jeff is ecologically friendly in that he is recycling as much of his older games as possible. So if the map looks like Avernum 4, it is with some changes to reflect the cavequakes since we last played through the area.

He has added new graphics and spell effects.

 

As Jeff mentioned earlier that you start in the Great Cave. This is probably the largest demo for Avernum since Avernum 3. You get the Castle, Almaria, Dharmon, Blosk, Gnass, Patrick's Tower and the forts that ring the Great Cave. Plenty to explore once you do a few minor quest so the let you out of the Castle Food Depot.

 

Depending upon party size and experience penalty/bonus you should finish the demo between level 11 and 16. Completing almost everything will make it higher and give lots of nice items.

 

This is the last major area that allows you to explore. You're in the army now so you can't go wherever you like as an adventurer. You need to follow orders and get them to get into certain places. Accepting quests is the easiest way to get into certain areas even if you don't do the quests. Get used to dealing with guards to get through gates.

 

Lots of old familiar quests to collect items, kill monsters, and deliver messages. Some of the old NPCs are back including Solberg, X, and Lark.

 

Jeff changed the spell system to add some new buffing spells that affect the whole party as long as you are near the caster. A little more efficient than the old system, but I miss some spells. Potions and scrolls are more useful this time so be sure to get them.

 

Because of the Blight, food is really important so you spend lots of time finding it so you don't want to suffer from starvation effects. Get used to using the portal pylons to go back for more every game day. After a few trips you can collect your rations in 5 minutes.

 

Money is still tight since Jeff offers so many ways to spend it. At least a few of the better trainers appear early in the game.

[Acky]

I approve of all of this.

 

I also approve of my demands being meant with such effeciency. Well done.

[Goldengirl]

This starvation effect... is similiar to the one from Exile? I suppose it makes sense, given the plot.

[fractalnavel]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

... You're in the army now so you can't go wherever you like as an adventurer. ...

Shoot - I was hoping for less linearization, not more. Well, at least it's not to the point where an auto-plod script can complete the game.

Um - do some of those details count somewhat as spoilers for us non-beta folks ?

[Slawbug]

This is easily, easily the least enticing and most nauseating forthcoming SW game update I have ever read.

 

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Jeff is ecologically friendly in that he is recycling as much of his older games as possible. So if the map looks like Avernum 4...

DIE. The poorly preserved world map in Avernum 4 was one of the things that was so frustrating to players of the first three games. Cavequakes are great and everything, but that map was a blight itself.

 

Quote:

Because of the Blight, food is really important so you spend lots of time finding it so you don't want to suffer from starvation effects. Get used to using the portal pylons to go back for more every game day. After a few trips you can collect your rations in 5 minutes.

This is just bizarre. Since he abandoned the food counter from Exile, Jeff has ranted about how stupid food meters are. He has gone on at length, over and over again, about how much he hates pointless busywork in games. The food collection process frankly sounds like a definite Negative Play Experience.

[Randomizer]

I'm trying to avoid spoilers since there are lots of surprises in the beginning.

 

Jeff put all his energy into the plot. There is every bad thing out of the old games still there. The map, not enough inventory, money shortages, having to save items for collection quests.

 

About 80% of the map is from A4. So all the flaws about everything being too small are still there. At least starting in the Great Cave gives you more to explore and do than A4 and A5.

 

Food is a pain, but I haven't got to see the actual negative effects because I usually get hit in safe areas or on return trips. Since you can sell food, I tend to accumulate more than I need so I can sell the excess. It's mostly there as a plot point to drive home that the Blight is causing shortages and how desperate everyone is to get some.

 

The moral dilemmas are still there and you get to choose between doing the right thing, the military way, or the mercenary thing most of the time.

 

For those that want to know, you do find out who won in A5 really early in the game. It was ....

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

I'm not sure how I feel about these news yet. The food thing is not what I worry about most though, that could actually prove to be a very nice aspect of the game - say a guard only lets you in if you bring him his favorite meal, which only one cook in Avernum can cook; you try to free him from some food baron, but he is killed before your eyes so you have to reconstruct the recipe yourself (maybe using an interface like the one you use to blow up Rentar's fortress in A3).

[Qalnor]

A6 sounds pretty great. I just recently started playing A5 and I wanted to make a suggestion. Perhaps other people have noted this, or perhaps not. But one thing I dislike about A5 versus the previous Avernums (at least 1-3, not 100% sure about 4) is that you can walk through and displace allies who have already moved.

 

This isn't a huge deal since I can just not do it, but I personally think it removes some of the tactical challenge of combat.

 

My only other suggestions are probably unreasonable, so I'll just say briefly that I miss the game being more keyboard friendly. I'm sure Jeff's decisions were made for good reason there, but I thought I'd throw it out there in passing.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Goldenking

This starvation effect... is similiar to the one from Exile? I suppose it makes sense, given the plot.

I remember when I first started playing the Exile series, I kept dying without a clue as to why until I discovered I needed to buy food to keep my PCs alive. The starvation effect adds a bit of realism to the game; after all, even in the gaming world, you gotta eat.

[wz. As]

I agree with slarty. My first thought on reading the update was, is this a joke? All the bad things from A4 and previous games?

 

I suppose we should remember that even though lots of *vocal* people disliked A4, it sold very well.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

So if the map looks like Avernum 4, it is with some changes to reflect the cavequakes since we last played through the area.

The map from A4 was fine.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

He has added new graphics and spell effects.

Great.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

This is the last major area that allows you to explore. You're in the army now so you can't go wherever you like as an adventurer. You need to follow orders and get them to get into certain places.

Well, I was concerned when Jeff announced that A5 would be more linear, but it still allowed me to re-visit areas and futz around a bit. So this is probably ok.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Because of the Blight, food is really important so you spend lots of time finding it so you don't want to suffer from starvation effects. Get used to using the portal pylons to go back for more every game day.

Barf. I don't think I will like this. Having to eat isn't very escapistfantasyish. I suppose it makes sense given the plot. As long as looking for food doesn't became the dominant game task it might be tolerable. It seems like a step backwards to me, though.

[Earth]

If there's resting at wilderness too ("few" times it got on nerves to runback to town to replenish SPs) then food consumption is understandable.

[Skomer]

From what I remember, Randomizer enjoys throwing in a load of untruths with his reports on new games. Any other testers want to comment?

[Ironweed]

Having to worry about food is not a bad idea, but going back for more rations every day sounds like mindless backtracking. And having to ask guards to open gates for you is another chore I could do without...

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Skomer

From what I remember, Randomizer enjoys throwing in a load of untruths with his reports on new games. Any other testers want to comment?

Me spread untruths. I'm shocked that you would suggest such a thing.

[Do you remember the scene in Casablanca where the police captain is told that there is gambling going on in Rick's Cafe American? Then he is given his winnings by an employee.]

[CobaltDragoon]

I was rather hoping for a return to the separate isometric maps for indoors/outdoors that were done in Avernum 1-3. It gave the world of Avernum and the Valorim Province a sort of massive feeling, like you were actually travelling the breadth of a massive underground cave world, or a massive unsettled wilderness.

 

No offense intended, but the combined maps in Avernum 4 made travelling really feel more like a grind than an exploration. Avernum 5 alleviated this through the waypoints/pillars, but that grindy feeling was still there.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: CobaltDragoon

I was rather hoping for a return to the separate isometric maps for indoors/outdoors that were done in Avernum 1-3. It gave the world of Avernum and the Valorim Province a sort of massive feeling, like you were actually travelling the breadth of a massive underground cave world, or a massive unsettled wilderness.

No offense intended, but the combined maps in Avernum 4 made travelling really feel more like a grind than an exploration. Avernum 5 alleviated this through the waypoints/pillars, but that grindy feeling was still there.

I appear to be in the minority, but I don't like the A1-3 two map approach. I find the transitions between maps jarring and don't have any problem feeling the epicness with the newer interface. I think it's the storytelling, the detail and length of the games, and the number of quests that give the Avernum games their epic quality. It's extremely unlikely Jeff is going to go back to the old approach, anyway.

[Mav]

I'll be OK with the "get food or you'll starve" game mechanic if food provides more benefits than in, say, A5 or much of the Geneforge series.

 

Basically, if I can get HP regeneration and maybe even some MP regeneration out-of-towns-and-dungeons kinda like Avernum 1 (IIRC) with a not-absurd food depletion rate which I assume would slow down in dungeons, and if characters intelligently consume food based on who has it instead of starving until you click and drag some over to the starving character, that'll be fine with me.

[Enraged Slith]

Nevermind. Cool deal.

[Soul of Wit]

Originally Posted By: CobaltDragoon

I was rather hoping for a return to the separate isometric maps for indoors/outdoors that were done in Avernum 1-3. It gave the world of Avernum and the Valorim Province a sort of massive feeling, like you were actually travelling the breadth of a massive underground cave world, or a massive unsettled wilderness.

No offense intended, but the combined maps in Avernum 4 made travelling really feel more like a grind than an exploration. Avernum 5 alleviated this through the waypoints/pillars, but that grindy feeling was still there.

I agree 100%. Best all-time Spiderweb game = Exile 3. Worst = Avernum 4. I remember getting lost in those early games. Unfortunately, there is no way that could happen in Avernum 4. And no, the honeycomb does NOT count.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Soul of Wit

I remember getting lost in those early games.

Who hasn't at one time or another? Learning the map is part of the fun!

When I first played E1, I went through Fort Spire to the Abyss, but I didn't stop and check in; therefore, when I wanted to return, the guards wouldn't let me by. Thinking my game was unwinnable, I restarted. I didn't realize there were other routes into & out of the Abyss until after I started my third game.

[Acky]

That sounds more tedious then fun, actually.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

That sounds more tedious then fun, actually.

It obviously was fun to the Mystic, or else he wouldn't have started again. Twice.

[Toby-Linn]

Quote:

Jeff is ecologically friendly in that he is recycling as much of his older games as possible. So if the map looks like Avernum 4, it is with some changes to reflect the cavequakes since we last played through the area.

I don't mind the new style of maps. True, you don't look as tiny traipsing through the wilderness as in A1-A3 and things are a little too close together, but it's still okay.

Quote:

This is the last major area that allows you to explore. You're in the army now so you can't go wherever you like as an adventurer. You need to follow orders and get them to get into certain places. Accepting quests is the easiest way to get into certain areas even if you don't do the quests.

Well, obviously you must have some freedom to roam around, or else you couldn't go on quests. It's not like we're marching in a large column of other soldiers, and not allowed to deviate from the path. It's probably like a time limit on jobs, which we had in A3. This doesn't sound too bad.

Quote:

Because of the Blight, food is really important so you spend lots of time finding it so you don't want to suffer from starvation effects. Get used to using the portal pylons to go back for more every game day. After a few trips you can collect your rations in 5 minutes.

Hmmm, I usually pick up all food I can find anyways, habit left over from the Exile games I guess. If we have to go back for rations every day, that could get annoying. I guess Jeff has decreased the amount of food that's usually lying around in dungeons and houses?

All in all, sounds like a very intriguing game, I can't wait till it comes out!

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

I side with Mystic on this one. In earlier games, esp in the Exile series, your actions actually altered the course of your party. When you really have to think about whether or not to accept a mission, step on a rune, say something to a NPC or, in Mystic's case, enter an area, you take the game more seriously. That always gave me a stronger feeling of playing a powerful party in a dangerous universe.

 

I guess Jeff tried to bring that feeling back a little bit in A5 (take the geas, for example). I hope he finds some other way to do it in A6. And I hope he considers obsessive savers like myself.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

I'm glad to see a return (although slight) to the old games (keeping food,). I'm sure the map will reflect differences over the years due to quakes, explosions, erosion, etc. But all in all the main part of the game has always intrigued me. The quests get you started but always the plot draws you in. The old returning characters keep it rememberable while new charaters keep it fresh.

 

I remember fist playing Exile 1: Escape from the Pit. You could literally go almost anywhere. There were a few exceptions like locked doors that needed keys or Solberg's Tower, but all in all, you could go anywhere.

 

Then Exile 2: Crystal Souls came out and then all of the sudden you need Clearances to get into certain areas which at first was completely mental, but have come to regard it as one the most appealing things I liked about the game. Also there were the Vahnatai Barriers that block most of the areas.

 

Exile 3: Ruined World was like combining the first two. You could go almost anywhere if you had done enough special things (beat the Slimes or Roaches).

 

If what they say about Avernum 6 is correct, then it will be a truly awsome game!

 

 

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Kohaku Nushi

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

That sounds more tedious then fun, actually.

It obviously was fun to the Mystic, or else he wouldn't have started again. Twice.

Actually, I restarted E1 at least a dozen times before finally beating it, which I only did once. Only two or three restarts were due to getting lost; the rest were because of bad party builds.

For me, it really was more about vengeance, not fun, when I reached Emperor Hawthorne's throne room; I'm surprised the "YES!!!!!" after winning E1 for my only time didn't echo across the globe a few times.

Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno

In earlier games, esp in the Exile series, your actions actually altered the course of your party.

I kind of miss that. Remember the stone circles from E3?

[Erebus the Black]

I was hoping to be able to start as a vahnatai group this time around

[Student of Trinity]

I've been slow on beta testing, but I'm getting caught up now, and so far I really like it.

 

I seem to be easy to please — I even liked G3 and A4 (though for A4 keep in mind that I never played the original trilogies, so Rentar-Ihrno was a new villain to me). So your mileage may vary.

 

I find the game less linear than A5. Maybe it shouldn't be, since you're supposed to be following a sequence of urgent missions, but in fact you are free to do a lot of wandering around.

 

Mainly I find that Jeff seems to be realizing his goal of letting players do cool things from the beginning, instead of just doing obviously minor tasks in order to level up for the grand finale. There's a little more story significance to all the tasks, so you feel that you're really making a difference, even very early in the game. This is very nice. I'm beginning to think that Jeff's next game might not even have levelling in it.

[Earth]

Vahnatais live so isolated and not exactly love Avernum so not that possible.

[fractalnavel]

Were any BoE/BoA scenarios written for Vahnatai PCs ? Could that have even been possible, with "hacks", perhaps ?

[Sleeping Dragon]

I remember seeing at one point (in the Louvre perhaps?) a complete Vahnatai PC graphic with portrait. I've never played a scenario that used it, however. I suppose anyone who wants to can use it themselves for any scenario, but I'm not sure how to go about doing that.

[Qualicide]

Food was important in Exile 2 at one point, not sure about the whole game though since the exiles were usually buy 25000 food and be done with it.

[Finch]

That would be so awesome, Or at least have the vahnati (i know I fail at spelling) as a playable character race I love using their crazy wave blades and spinning disks of death I even beat A2 with using just that.About the update "renewing" the starvation effect is nice and all adding realism to the game, sure its tedious but i mean at least theres a use for food now; as with in A5 food just healed you for about 7 each time, a potion or spell was more useful; think f it as a use for food now

 

Oh and I kind of miss using food to camp in outdoor areas as in A3

[Finch]

As I recall, Most Slithzerikai In Avernum anyway Hated Avernites and wanted to wipe them off the face of the caves( haha cave joke :3) same with the Nephil disliking humans, Avernum's become for the most part peaceful and they aren't as hostile as some of the rouge nephil and slithzerikai enemies you encounter so I would love to see the Vahnati as PCs they'd have like a magic bonus or something sure they live isolated lives away from Avernum. As I resist the temptation to argue why your wrong in "thats not possible" I won't start bickering beleive me lol its possible

[Earth]

Yea its possible but 1st some Vahnatais would need to move live with Avernites or make own town(s) like Sliths did. Unlikely put possible.

[fractalnavel]

From a Vahnatai's perspective, there needn't even be Avernites, Sliths or Nephils The story might originate from within their own culture; whether & how they bump into other species is optional, part of the story.

 

And no, simply doing image swap tricks isn't the idea. They'd need to be a distinct fully defined races.

 

On the other hand - almost all fantasy & scifi that has any concept of an "elder race" tends to lose some of its magic when the fog is lifted. Imagination outstrips description, if properly guided, as good artists in any media will tell you.

 

Hmm - I'll try and remember this the next time someone asks me to document some code :-D

[Velzan]

"Dies YET again"

 

From anticipation of course Is dieing of anticipation natural or unnatural?

[Finch]

yeah I agree with you about it being unlikely though, unless the avernites start making "vhanati like" buildings for them to live in. Sort of like what they did in the tower of magi also known as the useless room hahaha. But I would love to have some stick figure like vahnati tagging along with the rest of my adventurers even as like an Npc

[Dark.Fenix]

i personaly dont like the food thingy :S was the most boring part on exile games.

at first it gets anoying when u die and dont know why, then when u figure it out u start to buy food wich was sometimes "expensise", and then u learn to rush formelo and buy the cheapest of them all.

 

1 part i hated was when u stack loads of food on E2 before going in the rapids the... puff... all gone. died a few times before i perfectly reach vanhatai lands to buy food and before i found the secret vanhatai stash :S

 

but my opinion maybe be clouded by the hatefull memories writen above

[Student of Trinity]

There's food in the game, but so far it hasn't been annoying at all. There's enough of it around that if you just grab every edible you see when you pass it, you'll never have to go out of your way to get food. But it plays a part in the game because constantly picking up food, which you gradually do eat up automatically, keeps reminding you that famine is killing Avernum.

[fractalnavel]

All that food lying around in a famine stricken area, eh ? Hmmm...

 

Thought: food theft should be a crime in this game, and there should be a lower threshold of tolerance for this than for other crimes. Thought (2): over (or under) consumption should affect carried weight & encumbrance. Could also affect the attitude of those you meet: when a fat man appears, do the starving masses (a) despise him, ( toady up to him, or © eat him ? Are there recipes for Nephil adventurer/soldier stew being passed about ? (or are they better when roasted?)

 

Which brings to mind that hunting should be an option, instead of only scavenging / buying.

 

"Ooh, look - rubies !"

 

"Forget about the gems, Cordelia, look what I found - steak !"

[Earth]

lol@fract

 

doubt avernites end up cannibals unless really bad famine happens and even then its highly unlikely.

[Erebus the Black]

let me remind you that in A/E3 the vahnatai built a city in upper avernum as an embassy, so a city is already there.

Now all we need is recruits:

 

Looking for Vahnatai with a thirst for glory, adventure and who wish to serve their race by monitoring closly the ongoing adventures of the so called avernite races by joining them as the Vhanatai representative to observe their conduct and prevent the destruction of further vhanatai ancient crystal relics.

All who wish to apply may sign up at the recruitment office at Ghikra in the upper caves.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: fractalnavel

All that food lying around in a famine stricken area, eh ? Hmmm...

Thought: food theft should be a crime in this game, and there should be a lower threshold of tolerance for this than for other crimes. Thought (2): over (or under) consumption should affect carried weight & encumbrance. Could also affect the attitude of those you meet: when a fat man appears, do the starving masses (a) despise him, ( toady up to him, or © eat him ? Are there recipes for Nephil adventurer/soldier stew being passed about ? (or are they better when roasted?)

Which brings to mind that hunting should be an option, instead of only scavenging / buying.

"Ooh, look - rubies !"

"Forget about the gems, Cordelia, look what I found - steak !"

LOL!!! Oh, the potential. It would be hilarious if there were cannabilistic tribes in A6. Soylent green is people!

[Randomizer]

Don't you remember all that weird meat in the earlier games? Where do you think it came from?

 

Jeff has added a simple solution for theft in certain areas. BWAHAHAHA

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: fractalnavel

Thought: food theft should be a crime in this game, and there should be a lower threshold of tolerance for this than for other crimes.

In all of Jeff's games, I think the crime tolerance is already at zero. So it would be a crime not to leave some food behind when you leave an area?

Quote:

"Ooh, look - rubies !"

"Forget about the gems, Cordelia, look what I found - steak !"

LOL!!!!!! (5-minute pause to catch my breath)

Interesting state of things, though; food being worth more than gemstones...

[Sss-Chah]

there are a few places where vahantai join you in avernum 4, so if you really want a vahnatai in your party, play that game.

 

anyway, am i right in assuming that there's a reason for the famine, or is it just happening? it's probably a spoiler, so that question doesn't have to be answered, but it could be something as simple as the magic that sustains the crops starting to wear off and/or massive drought on the surface.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: avatar42

let me remind you that in A/E3 the vahnatai built a city in upper avernum as an embassy, so a city is already there.

That city might been demolished by now.

Vahnatais haven't so far been much adventurous but monitoring Avernites is 1 possibility.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Sss-Chah

anyway, am i right in assuming that there's a reason for the famine, or is it just happening?

The description on A6's homepage mentions something called the Blight that killed mushroom crops.

Dikiyoba knew that the Tower of Magi's secret experiments to hybridize mushrooms and potatoes were a bad idea.