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Northern Isles Game 7

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It'd be pretty funny if the Clover Boots kicked in and saved my life. I mean, I'd still lose, but it'd be a great middle finger to go out with.

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I think it is quite clear what the outcome of this game is. Let's congratulate our winners:

 

EXCALIBUR

TARSON

 

Thanks everyone for playing. Comments to follow.

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Hey, there were still 10 minutes left! tongue

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So here's what went wrong. There's a little rule about you get two trades per day. I admit I had not been 100% rigorous in defining a day and let a few things slide for convenience. Nonetheless, I took a pretty hard approach at the end since there was no ambiguity. Basically trades got maxed out and there was no possible path to win for the Anama faction.

 

I know this rule is annoying, but exists because:

 

1) Trades were "free" before and became too difficult for me to manage.

2) Long trading chains were really abusive and I wanted to weaken alliances somewhat.

3) Reflects a bit of reality of only doing so much in a day.

 

I also got too many conditionals. I try to work with this, and this is fine so long as only one person does this. Unfortunately, when you have multiple conditionals depending on other conditionals of other players, it becomes too difficult to resolve and I simply don't allow them. A few actions got ignored because of this.

 

Also, please be explicit in your actions. I try to be pretty lenient, but if there is ambiguity and I don't have the patience (which I apologize for being short of the last few days) to sort out the action, it got ignored.

 

I have more thoughts, but I want to hear what you say first. We'll talk about future moderation in the other thread. Let's keep this for game analysis.

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The Anama lost due to lack of cut-throat pragmatism and willingness to discard allies to achieve reasonable victories. Thuryl's death was within reach from day 2. The deception about Sleeping Dragon worked (and got SD killed), but Thuryl still could and should have died. Trying to get him killed by the right person with all the order worked out perfectly cost victory for the entire group.

 

—Alorael, who thinks this is a loss for the Anama but a success for the game. Balancing unwieldy alliances is the point. In this case, the alliance was too unwieldy and, well, failed to wield itself.

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So Doom Warrior joined the Anama after all, huh? I warned you, DW. You shoulda listened.

 

I actually had a long but legal trading chain prepared which would have allowed me to win, but it depended on Tarson's cooperation (and Andraste's, after she was resurrected), which I didn't get, and on most of the people involved actually having two trades left on the last day and not using them for something else, which I have no idea about.

 

Sorry about how much of a pain I must have been this game, Stareye. I must have made and rescinded about twenty different actions in the course of this game.

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My deception about SD shouldn't have worked, by the way. Marlenny knew that the Bound Servant doesn't know Gladwell's identity at the start of the game, because she's been the Bound Servant, and I told her that Sleeping Dragon was my Bound Servant within 5 minutes of the start of the game.

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I'm confused. I joined the Anama, yet I still won...

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Originally Posted By: Thuryl
My deception about SD shouldn't have worked, by the way. Marlenny knew that the Bound Servant doesn't know Gladwell's identity at the start of the game, because she's been the Bound Servant, and I told her that Sleeping Dragon was my Bound Servant within 5 minutes of the start of the game.

It should have gotten both of you killed. It didn't quite.

—Alorael, who has determined that the speed of alliance's actions is inversely proportional to the number of people it is trying to work with. The internet only complicates groupthink.

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For those who are curious.

 

Log

 

 

Day 1

 

Micklebur detects Gladwell is under magical influence

Gladwell changes his immunity to physical

Bound Servant receives 10 coins

Alchemist brews Ironskin Balm

Alchemist joins the Anama

Machrone answers a question, receives 5 coins.

Machrone asks moderator question, gets "yes" response.

Shanker protects herself

Shanker buys antidote from moderator for 15 coins

Pure Spirit learns Vahkos is unaligned

Dionicio buys Clover Boots from moderator for 15 coins

Alchemist uses Crystal Spire; finds Shanker has Holy Symbol

Pure Spirit buys Disruption Crystal from moderator for 30 coins

Pure Spirit uses Warding Crystal on Anama Priest

Darkside Mage curses Dionicio

Adventurer trade Flaming Sword to Alchemist for Killer Poison

Domont gives keyword "cake" to Darkside Blademaster

Alchemist sells Crystal Spire to the Anama for 35 coins

Alchemist buys Box of Traps from the Anama for 35 coins

Ronaldo poisons Darkside Blademaster

Alchemist gives Anama Priest 5 coins

 

Day 2

 

Vahkos attacks Shanker, but Shanker is warded

Vahkos switches attack to physical

Vahkos attacks Alchemist, but is immune to physical because he used Ironskin Balm

Anama Hunter attacks Anama Priest, but Anama Priest is warded

Darkside Blademaster kills Vahkos

Dionico attacks Domont, but is cursed

Domont escapes

Adventurer kills Bound Servant with Killer Poison

Anama Priest trades 20 coins with Alchemist for Flaming Sword

Alchemist uses Box of Traps on Anama Priest

Machrone answers questions, gets 5 coins

Anama Hunter joins Gladwell

Dionicio joins the Anama

Anama Priest sells Flaming Sword to moderator for 20 coins

Micklebur kills Anama Hunter

Micklebur gets Killer Poison

Gladwell switches his immunity to magic

Machrone asks moderator question, gets "no" response

Shanker protects herself

Dionicio kills Darkside Mage

Dionicio receives reward of 40 coins

Shanker sees Dionicio being suspicious

Anama Priest kills Domont

Darkside Blademaster dies from poison

 

Day 3

 

Ronaldo joins Gladwell

Alchemist gives Adventurer 20 coins

Dionicio buys warding crystal for 25 coins from Anama

Dionicio buys ivory skull for 15 coins from moderator

Machrone gives 20 coins to Adventurer

Gladwell compels Ronaldo to attack Micklebur

Ronaldo kills Micklebur

Ronaldo gets Killer Poison

Pure Spirit learns Ronaldo is working for Gladwell

Shanker protects herself

Dionicio uses warding crystal on himself

Dionicio kills Adventurer

 

Day 4

 

Shanker gives Holy Symbol to Alchemist

Machrone gives 5 coins and Antidote to Gladwell

Dionicio gives Clover Boots to Gladwell

Machrone answers questions, gets 5 coins

Anama Priest resurrects Adventurer

Machrone asks moderator question, receives "no" response

Gladwell compels Ronaldo to attack Anama Priest

Ronaldo kills Anama Priest

Alchemist solicits a 10 coin donation

Adventurer kills Machrone

Adventurer gets 40 coins

Dionicio kills Ronaldo

Dionicio gets Fury Crossbow, Killer Poison

 

Day 5

 

Dionicio sells Fury Crossbow, Killer Poison, Ivory Skull to Anama Shop for 55 coins

Alchemist gives Holy Symbol to Pure Spirit

Pure Spirit uses Holy Symbol, resurrects Anama Priest

Pure Spirit give Holy Symbol to Shanker

Dionicio give 55 coins to Shanker

Adventurer give 15 coins to Alchemist

Alchemist buys killer poison from Anama for 25 coins

Adventuer joins the Anama

Pure Spirit joins the Anama

Anama Priest removes all status effects from Gladwell

 

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Excalibur: You managed to kill the Darkside Mage which helps satisfy your original victory condition and also satisfied the Anama victory condition. In retrospect, you had nothing to lose by joining the Anama.

 

On the other hand, Sporefrog as the Alchemist would have won had he not joined the Anama. Shanker had won but none of the other conditions were met.

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Hey, you know what's funny? I switched my immunity back to Magic halfway through the game, because I knew the Anama would think my immunity was Physical and might try to take advantage of that. Andraste could have won just by using a regular attack on me, assuming the Clover Boots didn't trigger, but she didn't know that.

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The amount of poison floating around and the frequency with which it should have been used made that largely irrelevant.

 

—Alorael, who is very much getting the feeling that identification abilities are only significant on day 1. After that the game proceeds so fast that you need to rely on allies and rumors to act, mostly. You can possibly use them to confirm, but they won't get through good lies and there isn't time to waste with them anyway.

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I also had an Antidote in my inventory, so poison wouldn't have helped you much. I do feel like poison and antidotes were both a bit too common this game.

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I'm honestly surprised Thuryl did not end up dead a lot sooner. As Alo pointed out, there were multiple opportunities to kill him. Heck, the Wand of Death was just waiting in the moderator shop to be used. Had the team got its act together and bought it, it would have been game over sooner.

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Funny, I was going to kill Thuryl myself by use of the vulnerability scroll in the Anama shop, since I had thought wz. As was Domont, but then people were telling me that Andraste was definitely going to kill Thuryl, so I gave all my coins to Tarson instead and laid back until the game ended.

 

Yeah, I think we had a serious problem in communicating. What we needed was a big Anama group PM. If I had known better, I wouldn't have killed Andraste, which would have allowed for Alorael's resurrection, and the prevention of Marlenny's death, and a better likelihood that Thuryl would have died.

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Ask and you shall receive.

 

Alorael -- Micklebur

Andraste -- Adventurer

Ash Lael -- Darkside Blademaster

Bloodmoon -- Ronaldo

Doom Warrior -- Pure Spirit

Excalibur -- Dionicio

Marlenny -- Anama Priest

Omlette -- Machrone

RCCCL -- Domont

Sarachim -- Vahkos

Sleeping Dragon -- Bound Servant

Sporefrog -- Alchemist

Tarson -- Shanker

Thuryl -- Gladwell

Xelgion -- Anama Hunter

Wz As -- Darkside Mage

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I made three serious mistakes in this game:

 

* telling Marlenny my role at the start of the game even though I had good reason to suspect she might be Anama

 

* recruiting the Anama Hunter instead of Ronaldo first when I knew that the Anama already knew who the Anama Hunter was and were planning his death

 

* and picking Micklebur as the first target I killed instead of the Anama Priest (which might have prevented the resurrection shenanigans at the end) or even the Alchemist (which would have been a more reasonable target for Ronaldo if he were acting on his own).

 

After Micklebur died and it was very obvious to everyone that I was Gladwell, I think I played about as well as anyone could, but by then a win wasn't on the cards for me.

 

I don't feel like the game was particularly biased against any role this time: most of the people who lost could have won if it weren't for simple mistakes on their own part, and a smaller number lost through betrayal (which is part of the game) or dumb luck (which is unavoidable).

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Interesting. Yeah, it's not Thuryl's fault I died. I knew he was throwing me under the bus by having me pretend to be Gladwell, but it's also my fault for practically bullying half the players into attack me (I was confident in his plan). And I guess I really got into the role. smile I apologize to anyone I may have been borderline rude to while role-playing the Bound Servant role-playing Gladwell.

 

Strange, though, why was it the Adventurer that took me out? Was Andraste working for the Anama yet without actually joining the Anama?

 

In conclusion: Thuryl surviving is close enough to victory for me. wink

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Quote:
...serious mistakes...telling Marlenny my role at the start of the game


This seems to kill off a lot of players. Look at Sarachim as Vahkos in this game. I'm sorry, but there was no logical reason for Sarachim to reveal his role, period.

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In hindsight, Sleeping Dragon, you and I should have both pretended to be the Bound Servant, and maybe even pretended to not know who Gladwell was. It would only have delayed people figuring things out, but timing is everything in this game.

 

I'm still not sure how Doom Warrior was convinced to join the Anama. He'd already met his win condition, and nobody benefited from his death. He could literally have won by doing nothing at that point, but instead he sabotaged his own chances for no reason.

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Yes. If there were some sort of Golden Bonehead award, I'd win it. In my defense, Marlenny told me between this game and the last that if I ever got Vahkos she'd help me win. You're not supposed to lie between games, damnit! tongue

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SD: From her posts to me, it was pretty clear Andraste (Adventurer) honestly believed you were Gladwell.

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Mind you, Ronaldo didn't really benefit from joining me either, but he did it anyway. A couple of people traded items to me for no reason as well. Often in this game, you can just tell someone to do something and they'll do it.

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In that case, it was very smart of her to use the poison. I was so certain I would have been able to kill at least one physical attacker before they realized I wasn't Gladwell. She was smarter than that I guess. Kudos.

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On the bright side, I do think the factional dynamic in this game was pretty awesome from a narrative perspective: two opposed charismatic leaders who put their own allies' lives on the line in their efforts to destroy each other, and in the end both find themselves failing to achieve their goals.

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Doh, forgot about the two trade rule! Trading blows, horribly!

 

Had andraste been able to say "accept 20 coins from Sporefrog, accept 20 coins from Marlenny, buy wand of death, use wand of death on Thuryl" the game would've been over on day 2.

 

But instead Alorael and Andraste got stalled out for two days waiting for trades to go through. Trading is horribly underpowered if you can't say what you want to do with that trade in the same set of events. Marlenny and I both lost heart in the game after that happened.

 

Also, I suggest reworking the alchemist's role. I can trade one item, and make one potion, and then I'm utterly, utterly worthless. I cannot attack anyone, and I cannot get new items for my shop. Utterly, utterly worthless.

 

Also, if the problem was andraste accepting my trade for the poison, I could've easily put it on my shop and then traded it to her, so that really sucks to lose the game to that.

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Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon
In that case, it was very smart of her to use the poison. I was so certain I would have been able to kill at least one physical attacker before they realized I wasn't Gladwell. She was smarter than that I guess. Kudos.


Oh, yeah, about that. I also told Marlenny that I was switching my immunity to physical (which is why I switched it back). I messed up pretty thoroughly in this game.

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I also notice from the logs that Shanker never had any intention of helping me defeat the Anama, and was lying about attacking the Alchemist. I figured as much.

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Thuryl, I'm wondering, did you know from the beginning of our PM that I was with the Anama, or did I at least deceive you for awhile?

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Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon
Strange, though, why was it the Adventurer that took me out? Was Andraste working for the Anama yet without actually joining the Anama?


I'll leave Andraste to fill you in on the details if she wants to, but the short answer to this is yes.

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Originally Posted By: *i
Quote:
...serious mistakes...telling Marlenny my role at the start of the game


This seems to kill off a lot of players. Look at Sarachim as Vahkos in this game. I'm sorry, but there was no logical reason for Sarachim to reveal his role, period.


I don't know why people keep doing this, either...


But *I, as for my last action, I wanted to apply the poison directly to andraste's weapon just to avoid trading.

Does donating an item count as a trade? tongue

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I misplayed. I thought Excalibur was Ronaldo, and should have attacked him instead of cursing him. Is it intended for the Darkside Loyalists to take as long as they do to identify each other? I managed to confirm Domont's identity even without being sent a keyword — by quizzing him on our targets — but I'm not sure if we lost so quickly due to deficient playing or because our enemies had a natural advantage.

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Just a humorous side note: Stareye's PM to me regarding my death:

 

"A venomous error pieces you. You die."

 

Spellcheckers can be really funny sometimes.

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Originally Posted By: Excalibur
Thuryl, I'm wondering, did you know from the beginning of our PM that I was with the Anama, or did I at least deceive you for awhile?


I wondered if you might be at the beginning, but once I worked out you were Dionicio I didn't start considering that you might be with the Anama until near the end, when things were falling apart for me anyway. Good work.

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Originally Posted By: Thuryl
Oh, yeah, about that. I also told Marlenny that I was switching my immunity to physical (which is why I switched it back). I messed up pretty thoroughly in this game.
Ouch. In that case, I'd like to thank Omelette for being a better ally to me than my own 'partner' for the couple says I was in this. tongue

I was a really loyal servant to you, too!

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Wait, so thuryl, your immunity was magic?

 

Andraste should've at least attacked you without the weapon poison that *I didn't let me trade to her ;(

 

She had "accept trade for weapon poison, use weapon poison, attack thuryl" typed in.

 

*I says it doesn't go through because she couldn't accept another trade, but at least let her attack into him.

 

Gah.

 

/rage /rage /rage

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I agree it would be nice to relax the trading rule a bit, but I'd still like there to be a limit of some sort. To clarify, anytime an item or coins switch hands (except by death) it counts as a trade. This includes donations and shop purchases. Without the limit, trying to keep track of long chains of trades is a nightmare. Unfortunately, I'm not a computer but a human and can only do so much.

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Yeah, I understand that. Being a role that can offer nothing other than my ability to trade, you can see why that was particularly hard to work with.

 

 

A third route to our victory was just having andraste buy the poison herself, I was just taking the harder route to save a few coins frown

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Originally Posted By: Sporefrog
Wait, so thuryl, your immunity was magic?

Andraste should've at least attacked you without the weapon poison that *I didn't let me trade to her ;(


Yeah, that's what I said a page ago.

Quote:
She had "accept trade for weapon poison, use weapon poison, attack thuryl" typed in.


I believe "attack with Killer Poison" is treated as a single action, at least by my interpretation of the rules. You're attacking by using the item offensively. It's just like attacking with the Wand of Death: you don't default to a normal attack if you don't have the Wand of Death at the time the action is processed.

And remember, if you'd attacked with the poison, you would still have lost because I had an antidote.

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@ Thuryl:I'm just saying there are like 5 multiple screwups that it took for you have survived, so when you say it was risky or silly for people to have joined the anama, it was in fact really quite safe. It took all the powers of heaven and hell for us not to kill you, and nothing to do with strategy or gameplay.

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Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon
Ouch. In that case, I'd like to thank Omelette for being a better ally to me than my own 'partner' for the couple says I was in this. tongue

I was a really loyal servant to you, too!


Yeah, you did great and I was sad when you died. Sorry about screwing up so badly.

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Oh yeah, I'll definitely look into rebalancing the alchemist. The old version was broken and I think this one is broken in the other direction. I'll see what I can come up with for him. Ideas welcome of course.

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Originally Posted By: *i
Oh yeah, I'll definitely look into rebalancing the alchemist. The old version was broken and I think this one is broken in the other direction. I'll see what I can come up with for him. Ideas welcome of course.


I never felt compelled to trade items or coins for ingredients, since it took my action and never seemed to amount to a discount. If you're looking for more of a support role that cannot really ever attack, getting some ingredients each day sounds like an easy solution. Either that, or making items convert into enough ingredients to make more items than you converted, but only once per day.

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Originally Posted By: *i
Oh yeah, I'll definitely look into rebalancing the alchemist. The old version was broken and I think this one is broken in the other direction. I'll see what I can come up with for him. Ideas welcome of course.


How about this: as an ability use, the Alchemist can make any one potion (Antidote, Heroic Brew, Ironskin Balm, Killer Poison, Knowledge Brew, Resistance Elixir) for free, but can only make each potion once per game (maybe twice?). I think that would make the role similar in power to Shanker: less consistent, but more versatile. It also removes the need to worry about ingredients, which seemed pretty superfluous to begin with.

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Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon
One more request of Stareye: could you post the secret objectives for players that had them? Particularly Shanker's?


My targets, as you know, were the Alchemist, Micklebur, Adventurer, Assassin Leather and Holy Symbol.

Tarson claimed that Shanker's targets were the Pure Spirit, Anama Priest, Darkside Mage, Gladwell and Dionicio. I have no particular reason to disbelieve him.

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