Never Say Die

[Ephesos]

Saving and reloading is a major fixture of RPGs, and in fact many other genres of games. It has gone from a last resort to just another tactic in the player's arsenal. Why do you think that games nowadays have Quicksave and Quickload buttons?

 

Of course, that doesn't mean we have to let this trend continue. There are still hardcore players out there somewhere, and this stunt is an attempt to rekindle some of that spirit. Because the truth is that it's not just a problem in players, because there must be something that is causing them to resort to reloading, and that means some of the blame for this shift must fall on designers.

 

If you're still reading, then first off thanks. But you're probably wondering what the point of this post is, and I'll be the first to admit that it's a stunt.

 

My plan is to roll up a fresh party of adventurers and see how far I can get them through the established Blades scenarios. If a character dies and there's nowhere to revive them in the scenario, then too bad. I'll re-roll a new character at the next opportunity possible, or just at the beginning of the next scenario.

 

I'll be providing commentary on the scenarios I play through as I go, and odds are I'll get to re-evaluate some of my past reviews. Why? Because I think that it's easy to get lazy as designers, and just assume that people will resort to the quickload tactic when someone bites the dust. It's not that hard to include a method of resurrection in a scenario, and I think more people need to consider it when making their epics. It's not enough to just wait until the party can cast Return Life.

 

So, the party I'm starting with:

• Sssila, a slith fighter. Focusing on pole weapons, with a single point of Priest Spells for emergency healing.
• Herb, a human rogue with a point of Mage Spells. Starting with 10 points of Tool Use and a focus on stabbing things.
• Carrrno, a nephil priest with Thrown Weapons as a backup.
• Maria, a human mage with some Potion Making skill.

If people want more details as I go, I'm more than happy to provide them. First scenario is going to be Adrift, which I already know has no means of resurrection. So, without further ado, this experiment shall begin.

[Acky]

I'm not sure if the ability to mantic save-and-reload is that bad. If a player wants to, they can never save (in this case until they leave a scenario) and still play the game. What's wrong with giving casual gamers the option to just stroll around? As you're just showing, no one has to use the Quicksave/load if they want to.

 

But anyway, good luck. Let's see how far you get.

 

The Last Archon

[Enraged Slith]

I've wondered about this. I know I've tried to stray away from constant saving and reloading, but, eventually, combat seems to fall into that route. ZKR is ruined by this fact and would be a much better scenario if the player couldn't save before every action.

 

What difficulty are you playing on?

[Lazarus.]

Weren't you hating on the save point idea once upon a time?

 

Anyways, this is a pretty cool idea. Are you going to save at the beginning of a scenario, so you can restart if your party completely dies, or is this like "Hardcore mode" where if your party dies altogether you never play them again?

[nikki.]

Considering Eph's KoL ascension history, I'm guessing this will be "Hardcore mode". I'm surprised he's not taking the masochism all the way and only allowing healing if the tick number is divisible by 7.

[Ephesos]

I'm playing on Normal, at least for now. This isn't so much meant to be masochism as it is an exercise in design.

 

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

I'm not sure if the ability to mantic save-and-reload is that bad. If a player wants to, they can never save (in this case until they leave a scenario) and still play the game. What's wrong with giving casual gamers the option to just stroll around? As you're just showing, no one has to use the Quicksave/load if they want to.

 

I'm not sure you get my point here. It's something that most designers aren't even taking into account. Combat in most scenarios is constructed in a way where if you survive, yay for you, but if you don't come through in good shape you kinda need to reload.

 

And by no means am I saying that saving and reloading should be outlawed. Like you said, casual players want that option. But the overall design shouldn't be structured so that it's necessary.

 

Originally Posted By: Lazarus.

Weren't you hating on the save point idea once upon a time?

 

Yes, but mostly because it's an unnecessarily-complicated way of dealing with the problem that I'm talking about here. It'd be better to include things like opportunities for resurrection, and herbs for life-saving potions (JV's scenarios are best about this).

 

Originally Posted By: Lazarus.

Are you going to save at the beginning of a scenario, so you can restart if your party completely dies, or is this like "Hardcore mode" where if your party dies altogether you never play them again?

 

Not sure yet... but I expect that if I get a total party kill, I'll restart the scenario. Otherwise I have no idea how I'm going to make it through Canopy.

[Dintiradan]

Originally Posted By: Lazarus.

Weren't you hating on the save point idea once upon a time?

I think the issue is that players should be allowed to play as they want. If you want to save every ten seconds, you should be free to do so. But saving every ten seconds shouldn't be a requirement either.

EDIT: Sniped.

I think it greatly depends on the scenario. I agree that compulsive saving and reloading shouldn't be necessary to win most scenarios. But consider a scenario focused on timed battles or puzzles, with an instant die state on failure. I'd say that saving before each timed sequence would be expected, so long as it's clear In Character to the player that they should save.

Quote:

Anyways, this is a pretty cool idea. Are you going to save at the beginning of a scenario, so you can restart if your party completely dies, or is this like "Hardcore mode" where if your party dies altogether you never play them again?

Nah, he's playing Hardcore Hardcore. If his party is wiped out, he uninstalls Blades and never plays again. He could also be playing Hardcore Hardcore Hardcore, but we couldn't be reasonably sure this is the case until two or three weeks go by without a single post by Ephesos.

[Lazarus.]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

I think the issue is that players should be allowed to play as they want.

This is where you're wrong. Players are conniving devils hellbent on mutilating your scenario beyond all recognition, then defiling its corpse. It is your job as a designer to chain these monsters, and do anything in your power to keep them from their fell work.

Hey, TM agrees. I don't know why the rest of you have problems.

[nikki.]

Lazarus, to answer that question I need only refer you to your signature.

[Ephesos]

Update #1

 

Adrift was more difficult than I thought. Several times I had a PC down to 0 hp and in serious danger of being hit again. Carrrno's spells were undoubtedly what kept most of the party alive.

 

Yes, I said most. Sssila was cut down by a run-of-the-mill ghost's bonus cold damage. Stupid cold vulnerabilities! For those of you who've played...

 

Click to reveal..

The death occurred right before the fight that opens the path to the deck of the ship. So not that long after Sssila's death, the group of more powerful ghosts burst out of the door, and I was forced to convert Herb into a temporary tank.

 

Thankfully, Captain Samantha is a wonderful tank when you haste her, and we managed.

 

Other highlights:

 

Click to reveal..

The fight with invisible ghosts belowdecks... wow. Joined NPCs don't care much about invisible enemies, leaving Herb as the only reliable damage dealer. He came close to death once or twice, which would've left me pretty close to screwed. But he prevailed, and I breathed easy as I collected my bonus potions.

 

Click to reveal..

The final fight with the captain was special... because Carrrno was hit with the captain's anti-priest beam on the first turn (dumbfounding + paralysis = ow). Fortunately, Maria hasted herself and Captain Samantha and were able to combine for enough damage to win.

 

Overall, Adrift has more than enough healing to suffice. There were potions even I had forgotten about, and spell points were never much of a concern. I recommend it as an example of a solution to this save/reload issue.

 

Of course, I realized something slightly more important. Nowhere in any of my scenarios do I allow the player to add new PCs. It's a very simple call (enable_add_chars()), and I've almost never thought to add it. Needless to say, I have my work cut out for me tonight as I go back and add that call to all of my scenarios that need them... though Adrift and Darkness don't really have a place for them.

 

That's it for now, I have scenarios to correct...

[Randomizer]

Wasn't there a discussion about 2 years ago about making a Blades scenario that would allow saving at only certain places in the scenario?

 

Good luck with your games. Save and reload is a crutch to allow for experimenting or just lazy playing where you wander into a major fight and replay it prepared.

 

Over at Basilisk Games while they are waiting for Eschalon: Book 2 they play an Iron Man challenge with no reloads. It took me 5 tries to complete a game that way without spells.

[Abhishek]

Good luck with your game.

I am a big big supporter of what are you doing.As i am trying same thing somewhere else

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Lazarus

This is where you're wrong. Players are conniving devils hellbent on mutilating your scenario beyond all recognition, then defiling its corpse. It is your job as a designer to chain these monsters, and do anything in your power to keep them from their fell work.

Oh, but that's the fun part.

Dikiyoba.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Lazarus

This is where you're wrong. Players are conniving devils hellbent on mutilating your scenario beyond all recognition, then defiling its corpse. It is your job as a designer to chain these monsters, and do anything in your power to keep them from their fell work.

Oh, but that's the fun part.

Dikiyoba.

Reminds me of Ephesos' Darkness scenario.

[Ephesos]

Randomizer, should I take that as a compliment?

 

INTERLUDE

 

...so, I can't believe this. Apparently, the HLPM does not allow you to add new characters to the party. I spliced in the correct call and created a new melee fighter: Solisss, another slithzerakai with some priestly magic for emergency healing.

 

Of course, he starts at level 1, so this will be fun. Next up, I think I'll play through Wilderness, followed by Roses of Reckoning. Maybe Valley of the Dying Things.

 

...and just so everyone knows, remember to add this call to your larger friendly towns:

 

enable_add_chars(1);

 

It's that simple.

[Lazarus.]

I know Jeff includes it in his larger towns, but really for any scenario above level 15 req it doesn't matter. Even if people didn't reload after a character dies, nobody would delete a 15+ character to create a useless level one. What scenarios really need are healers to revive dead for those who don't have the spell.

 

I believe at least one town in Dilecia had add_chars enabled. My other scenarios not so much, for obvious reason.

[Ephesos]

Update #2

 

Wilderness was fairly simple. I believe that the closest anyone came to dying was Solisss (the new fighter) being reduced to 0 hp once, which I guess is what happens when you bring a level 1 character to a level 3 gunfight.

 

Spoilerific fun follows:

 

Click to reveal..

I picked up the Quartz Crystal, and that's gonna be fun. Also, the Shredded Pants will be helpful for the whole "not dying" thing, since they give +20% chance of saving a life... Solisss wishes to thank Jemand for that godsend.

 

Click to reveal..

Also, things I hadn't noticed before: The brass knuckles and the broken chair are awesome weapons, and I wish I could've just dedicated a character to using them. Sadly, Maria already wields a hammer, and Herb has the Captain's Scimitar.

 

...so yeah, Wilderness doesn't exactly have a lot of healing. In fact, I only found one potion the entire time. However, it's short enough that it really doesn't need all that much. No deaths.

 

Next up, I think I'll take on Roses of Reckoning. That will be a bit more of a challenge...

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Ephesos

Randomizer, should I take that as a compliment?

I ran Darkness using a character generated during Niemand's Blades of Rogue. He barely survived. That's what happens when your singleton is mostly a fighter.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dintiradan

I think it greatly depends on the scenario. I agree that compulsive saving and reloading shouldn't be necessary to win most scenarios. But consider a scenario focused on timed battles or puzzles, with an instant die state on failure. I'd say that saving before each timed sequence would be expected, so long as it's clear In Character to the player that they should save.

I'd be fairly surprised if anybody finished Roots on a first playthrough without keeping multiple savefiles; I also don't think the scenario would have worked as well, in terms of either story or gameplay, without the intense scenario-wide time and resource pressure. A lot of scenarios just don't provide services like resurrection because the author never even thought that anyone would want them, though, and that's a bit of a different issue.

[Ephesos]

...as I slog through Roses of Reckoning, I'm sure it will surprise nobody that TM supplied the first TPK of the challenge. Four Ruby Skeletons suddenly appearing and getting a surprise round is surprisingly lethal.

 

So yeah. Gonna have to do that over.

 

*facepalm*

 

EDIT: And right after I say that, I get dealt another TPK in the form of multiple hasted vampires casting Ice Lances for lethal damage.

[Ephesos]

Update #3

 

So who's surprised that a TM scenario dealt the first TPKs? Right, nobody. Well, it was basically all or nothing, because if the entire party wasn't in immediate danger of dying, nobody was.

 

For those of you who've played it, you know that Roses of Reckoning is not a complex scenario. It was the first third-party scenario released for Blades, and it was kind of TM's way of saying "Buy Blades of Exile".

 

Click to reveal..

All of the enemies in RoR are undead, and the majority of them have some magical ability. Ruby skeletons, even at level 5, are tricky... and amazingly, they killed Solisss and Carrrno first, leaving me with no healing and no chance to avoid the TPK.

 

Click to reveal..

Spellcasters are tricky, and it's not very nice to throw multiple spellcasters at the player when they have the ability to 1) Haste each other, and 2) Hit the entire party with spells like Ice Lances. That was another 2 TPKs, and a few more that were narrowly avoided. I'm looking forward to Mass Healing.

 

So yeah. On the other hand, RoR had more than enough potions lying around to keep me alive. My biggest objection, and I can't believe I didn't see this before, was that there were plot-critical items hidden behind fake walls (*cough*... barrier dispelling).

 

Time to go re-write a review, methinks. Next up, perhaps Valley of the Dying Things. Either that or Express Delivery, because there's not much else in the range of level 5.

[Duck in a Top Hat]

You should do Express Delivery first, because in that one you stay level five but in Valley of Dying Things you come out at twenty or something. (Of course I'm exaggerating, but I know you level up a lot more than express delivery.)

[Kelandon]

Originally Posted By: Ephesos

...so, I can't believe this. Apparently, the HLPM does not allow you to add new characters to the party.
...
...and just so everyone knows, remember to add this call to your larger friendly towns:

enable_add_chars(1);

You're right: it never even occurred to me. I guess I'll do an update at some point that will include this.

[Ephesos]

Update #4

 

Express Delivery was not a challenge for a well-equipped level 5 party on Normal. Honestly, that's about all I can say about it. Only one potion dropped anywhere, but I never needed it.

 

However, I did realize just how annoying it is to have to re-cast Light every twenty turns.

 

Next up will likely be VoDT.

[The Creator]

I like what you are doing here. Will you try it for BoE later? I'm curious to see how my scenarios would fare (very badly I suspect). I always kinda expected the player would be using save/reload to get an advantage, and built my scenarios to give them a challenge despite that.

[Ephesos]

I'm so clueless with regards to BoE that no, I don't think I will be repeating the stunt. I would encourage someone else to step up and try it, though.

 

(Still working through VoDT, it's just been a rough few days)

[Lazarus.]

Originally Posted By: The Creator

I like what you are doing here. Will you try it for BoE later? I'm curious to see how my scenarios would fare (very badly I suspect). I always kinda expected the player would be using save/reload to get an advantage, and built my scenarios to give them a challenge despite that.

As I recall you were rather fond of ambushes and timers that ended in the party's death. Playing Revenge without saving would probably result in too much damage to surrounding electronic equipment.

For some reason I was never good at BoE combat, so I never got to really enjoy it. It was always either slogging through worthless inferior monsters, or getting my ass pulverized by jacked up monsters. I think I brought in too many bad habits from years of E3, and by the time I accepted that I would have to change my strategy if I were to succeed in newer scenarios, I had already given up on playing legit. Much cheating ensued (Your scenarios especially.)

[Abhishek]

Originally Posted By: Ephesos

I would encourage someone else to step up and try it, though.

(Still working through VoDT, it's just been a rough few days)

My thinking is just same like you.Right now i am busy in Avernum 5 completing tormet without dying.I have addiction to complete SW game without dying from the first triology.After A 5 I will be playing and learning BoA so may be I will be the person to whom you will encourage.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Abhishek

After A 5 I will be playing and learning BoA so may be I will be the person to whom you will encourage.

BoE. Ephesos was talking about BoE, not BoA.

Dikiyoba.

[Abhishek]

Oh yeah,you can find me on different thread talking about BoE too.i think it would be better if i play all the scenarios before making one thats why i will play BoE too.I do not mention that i am talking about BoE because i knew what he is talking about

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Abhishek

i do not mention that i am talking about BoE because i knew what he is talking about

But then we don't know what you are talking about.

Dikiyoba obviously didn't catch it, anyway.

[Aran]

Originally Posted By: Ephesos

Express Delivery was not a challenge for a well-equipped level 5 party on Normal. Honestly, that's about all I can say about it. Only one potion dropped anywhere, but I never needed it.

However, I did realize just how annoying it is to have to re-cast Light every twenty turns.

It's good exercise for your mage.

[Ephesos]

Hunh... so, funny story. It appears that about half of the scripts in my copy of VoDT have been randomly corrupted, making it awfully hard to continue. Could anyone spot me a fresh copy of it?

[Dintiradan]

I hear you can get a copy from here.

 

EDIT: Never mind, you'd actually have to reinstall Blades to access VoDT. I was wondering why you asked... If no one e-mails you a copy by the time I get home, I'll send you one. Presumably Acky already did.

[Acky]

Here you go.

[Ephesos]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

Here you go.

...I'm actually really curious what you meant here. If you sent it, you sent it to the wrong address.

[Dintiradan]

Sent it; hopefully you haven't changed your e-mail address recently.

[Acky]

Originally Posted By: Ephesos

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

Here you go.

...I'm actually really curious what you meant here. If you sent it, you sent it to the wrong address.

Oh? Hmm, thats strange. Must of gotten lost in the mail.

Click to reveal..

What? I had to say it, and you all know it

But no, seriously, you didn't get it? I used the email in your profile.

......hmmm.

The Last Archon

[aka Ravenwing]

Eph, don't you have the CD? Or did you just get it digitally? Because if you have the CD (or anything with a BoA demo on it), it should be in there. Or you could download it again.

 

A bit irrelevant right now, but I'm just sayin'.

[Ephesos]

Thanks, Dintiradan. You hit one of my addresses, but you're the only one who got any right.

 

Btw, you can update that to a gmail account now (same username). I rarely check the AOL anymore.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Ephesos

Thanks, Dintiradan. You hit one of my addresses, but you're the only one who got any right.

If I'd seen this thread, and had been bothered to send it, I'd have got it right.

[Ephesos]

*cough cough*

 

...oh, right! This thread! It still exists!

 

Currently traipsing through VoDT, where Solisss (the replacement fighter) has come close to death on more than one occasion.

 

The undead in the mines? Ow. Ice Lances is a killer at low-levels, but thankfully there was only one Spirit in the mines.

 

Anyway, this project is continuing, particularly now that I've moved back home and haven't adjusted well enough to sleep regularly.

 

EDIT: Another total party kill... Spirit of the Sick owned me in the face.

[Ephesos]

Update #5

 

As the party slowly progresses through the School of Magery, it stumbles upon a book. The book has been chained to a pedestal, and is covered with ice. Solisss, being naturally curious, goes to check it out.

 

A demon appears, summons shamblers, and destroys the entire party in two rounds.

 

...right. Somewhere in a parallel dimension, Solisss is a little wiser. The party confers, and prepares for the worst. The demon is destroyed in two rounds.

 

I don't entirely know what to think of this right now, but I don't like the idea. Also, Valley of the Dying Things is looooong...

[Celtic Minstrel]

Which idea do you dislike? The idea of the demon appearing?

[Enraged Slith]

Demons are really scary, but I would have to guess it has something to do with the fact that Arcane Summon is a horribly broken spell and the fact that ambushes are never a good idea if the only way to beat them is to die the first time and then repeat with buffs already in place.

[Ephesos]

I can already think of a much better way to do that scene, actually.

 

1. Party reads book.

2. Bit of SFX on spot where demon will appear.

3. After a 1-turn delay, demon spawns.

 

This would give the party a chance to prepare for the fight, so that Arcane Summon doesn't own them.

 

...also, yeah. Arcane Summon is just broken on NPCs.

[Dintiradan]

Arcane Summon is broken for PCs, too. There's a reason why later versions of D&D added the rule that summoned creatures can't summon other creatures.

 

Actually, I don't mind cascading summons. Say, an archmage summons several vampires, and those vampires summon lesser undead. That's fine. It's when vampires summon vampires that things go south.

[Celtic Minstrel]

There should be a rule that a monster can't summon other monsters of the same type?

[Niemand]

I think that this should be a rule, and in the past I have deliberately tweaked the vampires' summon level so that they can't summon themselves. It's not too hard to just adjust each creature's summon level so that it is more difficult to summon than anything which it can itself summon, which is logical as well, I think.

 

I agree with Dinti that summon cascading is a nice effect that shouldn't be strictly eliminated. (The other place where it goes bad in BoA specifically is when it hits the rather low ceiling for number of summoned monsters, so that nobody can summon anything. Ogre mages are the alternative culprits to vampires for this, since they use summoning spell a lot, and can themselves be summoned, although they at least cannot summon themselves.)

[Ephesos]

Update #6

 

Solisss presses the final button, and the machinery grinds to life. Bruning, who still isn't too sure about these people, wonders if maybe the mage should've used the panel. The quickfire pours out into the facility, and the party begins to sprint for the exit.

 

As they realize that the quickfire has trapped them, they freeze. Maria grips her hammer, as if it could break down the walls that separate them from (relative) safety. Carrrno says a prayer to a nephil god.

 

Then all five of them find themselves in the office of the mayor of Sweetgrove, stunned.

 

So yeah, finally finished. The end comes quicker than I had remembered, it's just that going through the School itself takes a while. And also, starting the scenario at level 5 makes most of it trivial, except those tricky locked doors that need 15 Tool Use.

 

Also, for a scenario this long, I've settled on saving and reloading for total party kills. Otherwise, this would've taken way way too long.

 

Highlights:

 

Click to reveal..

The Spirit of the Sick resulted in a total party kill. No surprise there. But when I went back at the end, I forgot that it only fights you before you've solved the curse.

 

Click to reveal..

Walking into rooms full of quickfire is stupid. Oh, and a total party kill.

 

Click to reveal..

There are some mines in the School that you don't even get a chance to defuse. Those slaughtered everyone but Bruning on one memorable occasion.

 

Click to reveal..

The group of undead in the caves was easy, surprisingly. I mean, one Fireblast left me pretty close to dead, but the party prevailed, with no deaths. I guess being over-leveled was a good thing for once.

 

Anyway, end of spoilers. There were plenty of potions lying around, and way more spell scrolls/wands then I will ever need.

 

I just realized that I've never written a CSR review for Valley of Dying Things, so I've gone ahead and written up my player-perspective review over there. However, I still have a few designer-oriented notes:

 

• Backtracking. This scenario features a lot of it, actually, but I like how it's handled. As you progress, you get those great shortcuts back to the surface, so you can run back to town and heal/trade/restock. And aside from that, the most backtracking you have to do is with the Opening Stone, and you don't have to go that far unless you're doing side-quests (as it should be).
• Outdoors. The outdoors in VoDT is huge and largely empty, at first glance. However, I would up actually liking the layout before long, even though it's pretty much counter to my usual style. But then again, I've always been a supporter of large outdoors sections.
• Magic & Shops. I really, really, really wish there had been a place to get level 2 War Blessing. Shielding is good. I was generally disappointed that there was basically no way to get level 2 spells, even in the School's spellbooks. But on the plus side, the shops offered plenty of gear, and there was someone to identify items, so yay. Level 1 War Blessing just isn't that good, though.
• Items. Like I already said, there were tons of scrolls and wands, which might've been more helpful to a lower-level party. But I want to see more powders in scenarios! They spice things up a bit when all you normally see is potions.