Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 This is crazy. There's no less than three Geneforge wikis. Two of them are hosted on wiki farms and appear to be actively edited. The third is abandoned, privately hosted, and has no articles. Geneforge @ Wikia (last edited March 6, 2009) Geneforge @ Wikispaces (last edited March 7, 2009) Geneforge @ Ermarian.net (last edited July 12, 2008) Danette's Library @ Wikispaces (last edited March 14, 2009) There's just no point having three of them. It's counter-productive, really. So it would be advisable to merge them into a single wiki. I personally think that it would be nice to actually make use of Arancaytar's offer to host the wiki on his personal webspace. On the other hand, that's the wiki that never got started – one of the reasons for this is that people were trying to get some organization down before creating any articles. I don't think that was a good idea on their part. The other two wikis have articles (one has more than the other), but on the other hand they are hosted on wiki farms. That means less that you have less control over them. So, thought? Ideas? Votes? ((On an unrelated note: the poll system in this forum is the best one I've ever seen on a forum! Though, the only other forums I've made polls in are PHPBB and IPB.)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 The poll system SEEMS great, but it has some ugly features if you want to include multiple questions. One big problem is that it's impossible to make people respond to a set of questions at once, which totally ruins anything resembling data integrity when comparing different questions. On the flip side, if you are trying to respond to multiple questions at once, it's very annoying to have to repeat (click your answer, click submit vote, wait for it to load, scroll to find the next question) X times instead of just clicking an answer X times and clicking submit vote once. --- In retrospect, it was clearly a bad idea on our part to attempt to be organized, since nothing ever happened. Hindsight is 20/20, eh? That said, I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to accomplish here, CM. The wikia only has a few low quality articles, all written by one person, and Sucia Archives has none. Right now the wikispaces wiki is the only real Geneforge wiki. They seem to be doing a reasonable enough job with it, so I'm not sure what moving it to Aran's space would do except - create more work for Aran - create a lot of work for whoever moves the content - put Aran in a potentially awkward situation given that the wikispaces wiki "owner" is banned on SW Really the simplest thing to do seems to be to tell the one wikia contributor about the wikispaces wiki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I'm also making a Geneforge Wiki, as sort of a back up should the Genewiki fail or die out. The Last Archon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 Okay... Ackrovan, where and why? Slarty: Yes, it would be a bit of work to move the content. But not a whole lot of work – a few hourse, I should think. Moving pages between MediaWiki wikis (eg from the Wikia site to the Ermarian.net site) is even easier, just export then import. I don't think the Wikispaces one uses MediaWiki, though, and it does have more articles. As for your third point... I don't understand why that'd be a problem. Moving to Sucia Archives would not require the owner to post here or anything. Basically I'm just going for consolidation. I don't really care which of the three is kept, but it's silly to have three. If the Wikispace one is going to be kept, then informing the Wikia contributor of it would be necessary, as well as deleting that wiki (or posting a "Moved to here" message if deleting isn't possible), and then Arancaytar could remove Sucia Archives from his server. If we wanted to keep Sucia Archives instead, both the Wikia and Wikispaces wikis could be deleted (or a "Moved to here" message posted). I don't particularly like the look of the Wikispaces one. For one thing, it seems to have all its articles listed on the left. It's also a paid wiki, so presumably you could get more control over it, but only if you pay them. My preference would be Sucia Archives. If you do like the Wikispaces appearance, though, it's quite possible to reskin MediaWiki (though I'm not sure how easy it would be to get that look). But really, as I said, I'm just going for consolidation. If everyone prefers Wikispaces, then fine. I don't mind. It's not like I'd be making many contributions anytime soon, anyway. By the time I purchase and play the Geneforges, the wiki may even be beyond the point where I could add anything useful. --- I'd be interesting in knowing who voted for Sucia Archives (2 people, apparently) and who voted for Wikia (1 person). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Danette's Library The Last Archon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I didn't vote, but the question was ambiguous enough that some people may have interpreted it as which _webspace_ to keep and agreed with your idea to move the wikispaces to barred.ermarian.net. I'm just saying this is a lot of fuss over nothing. The wikispaces wiki has had 6 edits in the last 30 days, 5 by the owner and 1 by Ackrovan. It is sustaining itself, sort of... But, it is not growing exponentially, it is not in need of new organizational schema, etc. I just note that you're not volunteering to do this yourself, you're basically asking other people to put in the time. I'm just saying, as a third party, I don't see the return-on-investment... why bother moving it? Regardless, it probably does make sense to copy the one page with actual information on barred.ermarian.net (my user page & user talk page, IIRC) and get rid of the subdomain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Danette's Library The Last Archon Yes, let's solve the surfeit of wikis by creating another wiki! Bravo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: Slartucker I didn't vote, but the question was ambiguous enough that some people may have interpreted it as which _webspace_ to keep and agreed with your idea to move the wikispaces to barred.ermarian.net. ...Bother. Blarg. Originally Posted By: Slartucker I'm just saying this is a lot of fuss over nothing. The wikispaces wiki has had 6 edits in the last 30 days, 5 by the owner and 1 by Ackrovan. It is sustaining itself, sort of... But, it is not growing exponentially, it is not in need of new organizational schema, etc. Sure, but the point is that having three others is redundant. Originally Posted By: Slartucker I just note that you're not volunteering to do this yourself, you're basically asking other people to put in the time. I'm just saying, as a third party, I don't see the return-on-investment... why bother moving it? If we were moving all the information to Sucia Archives, I would be willing to put in the time to copy all the data from the two Wikispaces ones. I could copy info from the Wikia one too, but it'd be quicker for someone who is a sysop on SA. If we were not going to move everything to Sucia Archives, I may still be willing to help. Originally Posted By: Slartucker Regardless, it probably does make sense to copy the one page with actual information on barred.ermarian.net (my user page & user talk page, IIRC) and get rid of the subdomain. That would work, yes. And the information from Wikia. And the information from the other Wikispaces wiki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Commence bad xkcd parody: - Are you coming to bed? - I can't. This is important. - What? - Something is redundant on the Internet. Seriously, CM, you are complaining about redundancy on the Internet? Have you gone totally bonkers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 There is good redundancy (eg mirror sites) and there is bad redundancy. This is not the former. We have three different sites doing the same thing at the same time, but with different people. ...Does Wikispaces allow images to be included in the wiki? I keep seeing more things that suggest that it just might be better for the wiki to be MediaWiki-based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 That's the point, the Internet is FULL of pointless redundancy. Complaining about redundancy on the Internet is like complaining about somebody having a stupid opinion and broadcasting it on the Internet (the original strip). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasoned Roamer Shrapy Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I'm not sure how much help I can be with this, but I think this comment should go to the people making the "Genewiki". I was reading a few of your articles on creations(most specificly Wingbolts), and when reading, it began to become confusing of exactly what you were talking about. What the hell is a stone? What is a calss three creation? Experienced Geneforge players would probably know what you're talking about, but new players (aka me) who really have no idea what these terms are, would make it very confusing and therefore difficult to use. Which, seeing how much work these people put into these Wiki's would really be a huge bumber. Now, ever if I were to be told right now what those titles mean, my point would still be completely valid, because just because I now know what it means, the other newb wouldn't. And even if there is a page on the Genewiki, or any other of these wiki's that explain this, its not a good idea to actually force the reader to read it, 'cause it can tick a lot of people off pretty damn fast. So in a nutshell, I think wiki's should be newb friendly, and easy to use for the casual player, who is much more likely to know less about Geneforge lore than the Vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 Does no-one besides Slarty have an opinion on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall The Ratt Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I say keep the one that has the most in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Duck in a Top Hat Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I'm all for merging it, but if they're not growing enough, I don't see the point in taking the trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: Shrapy I was reading a few of your articles on creations(most specificly Wingbolts), and when reading, it began to become confusing of exactly what you were talking about. What the hell is a stone? What is a calss three creation? Experienced Geneforge players would probably know what you're talking about, but new players (aka me) who really have no idea what these terms are, would make it very confusing and therefore difficult to use. I have not read the article, but it sounds like a lot of information was pulled off the creation surveys. Unfortunately, as far as I know, the creation surveys are just flavor text and so aren't really explained that much. (Dikiyoba was all set to explain that the measurements given on the creation surveys are pretty much nonsensical before realizing that Shaper society is probably dysfuctional enough to think that having artilas literally weigh a ton is a good idea.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Gnaeus Pompeius Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: The Ratt I say keep the one that has the most in it. That is a good solution, but the problem seems to be that one wiki contains stuff the other one may be lacking in and conversely. It would be better if someone(who has adequate knowledge)takes it upon himself/herself to edit and add articles in anyone of the abovesaid wikis. Or I suppose one could just combine the info contained in these into a third wiki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gnaeus Pompeius Or I suppose one could just combine the info contained in these into a third wiki. Which sounds like a potential argument for merging them all into the one which is currently empty. It seems no-one who posted wants the Wikia one to be kept... yet it received the most votes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Some of the articles, especially in the Danette page, are poorly written. I'm playing through GF1 right now and plan on continuing through the next four. Starting with GF2, maybe I'll make a list of every important person and event and copy all the lore in my Journal so I can transpose it onto a Notepad file later, if someone cared to upload it on an actual website. Maybe I could make it even more interesting, and write it from the perspective of the character I'm playing. Make it kind of like a roleplaying LP sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Gnaeus Pompeius Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: Enraged Slith Some of the articles, especially in the Danette page, are poorly written. I'm playing through GF1 right now and plan on continuing through the next four. Starting with GF2, maybe I'll make a list of every important person and event and copy all the lore in my Journal so I can transpose it onto a Notepad file later, if someone cared to upload it on an actual website. Maybe I could make it even more interesting, and write it from the perspective of the character I'm playing. Make it kind of like a roleplaying LP sort of thing. Enraged Slith, while I find your idea of expanding upon the wikis commendable, please don't make it so that it is from the PC's perspective. Such an article may suffer from the twin disadvantages of not only inadequately representing the 'other' side (whichever side you fight against) but also may subvert the overall canonicity of the article. It is my opinion that RP and wikis are best kept seperate. With Warm regards - Pompeius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Duck in a Top Hat Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I think Enraged Slith's idea is actually valid. Except we might want to have one for every faction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Encyclopedic wikis are not RPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Enraged Slith's idea is valid, but not for a wiki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasoned Roamer Shrapy Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Dikiyoba: Wait, a ton? Isn't an Artila just a big worm, which anatomy is supposed to be the same, save the Acid? Isn't it a better idea just to leave it as it is? If the Genewiki and Danette's(Anyone mind filling me in on who this is?) Library are still growing, then what's the big deal? Maybe the competition would inspire both contributors to out due each other. Thats what capitalism is, you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Danette is the name of a character from Geneforge 1. Click to reveal.. She was the Shaper who invented the Geneforge. Her shade is a powerful optional boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Shrapy Dikiyoba: Wait, a ton? Isn't an Artila just a big worm, which anatomy is supposed to be the same, save the Acid? I believe the creation survey said something about artilas being part mammal (or maybe that was just vlish). But a stone is 14 pounds and the weight given for artilas is 140 stones, so yeah, practically a ton. Dikiyoba votes to leave the wikis alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 The Avernum series used "stone" as a generic measurement of weight that definitely wasn't 14 pounds. I'm pretty sure it dates back to D&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasoned Roamer Shrapy Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Whats D&D? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I'd like to chime in and mention that there is something hilariously wrong with the fact that there is a tie between the two content-free wikis with the one that actually contains information lagging behind. —Alorael, who will go ahead and say that Aran's hosted space will only last as long as Aran does. Wiki farms are possibly more reliable for long-term storage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Shrapy Isn't it a better idea just to leave it as it is? If the Genewiki and Danette's(Anyone mind filling me in on who this is?) Library are still growing, then what's the big deal? Maybe the competition would inspire both contributors to out due each other. Thats what capitalism is, you know. Not really. Dannette's Library has exactly one contributor, and Geneforge Wikia has one main contributor with one or two others who haven't really done anything. Ackrovan is already contributing to Genewiki as well, so while it's redundant it's not too bad. However, the guy at Wikia could better use his time contributing to the place where everyone else is contributing – ie, Genewiki. Originally Posted By: Alorael I'd like to chime in and mention that there is something hilariously wrong with the fact that there is a tie between the two content-free wikis with the one that actually contains information lagging behind. ...Yeah, that's kind of odd... I don't like that the Wikispaces one apparently can't include images, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Toby-Linn Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I don't get the point of this thread. I find it hard to believe that people who have put time and effort into creating these Geneforge Wikis are going to listen to you and just take down all their hard work just because you tell them that it's redundant. Seriously, why would they listen to you or care what you think about their work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Ah, but Aran will be replaced by a bot when he ceases to exist if it hasn't already happened so his work will never end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Quote: ...Ackrovan is already contributing to Genewiki as well... I am no longer working on the Genewiki. Edit: 'Cause that just be stupid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Toby-Linn I don't get the point of this thread. I find it hard to believe that people who have put time and effort into creating these Geneforge Wikis are going to listen to you and just take down all their hard work just because you tell them that it's redundant. Seriously, why would they listen to you or care what you think about their work? ...Who said I'm telling them to take it down? I'm just suggesting that it be moved "over there". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Toby-Linn Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 That sounds like a lot of work, why would they move it when they can just keep adding articles to one they've been working on for awhile? Why don't you just make a definitive one that has all the articles from all the wikis? Oh but then you would be redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Feo Takahari Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Come to think of it, why are we writing wikis for Geneforge anyways? Encyclopedia Ermarian can at least be used to check details for Blades of Avernum, but unless somebody's writing another Geneforge fanfic . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Feo Takahari Come to think of it, why are we writing wikis for Geneforge anyways? Encyclopedia Ermarian can at least be used to check details for Blades of Avernum, but unless somebody's writing another Geneforge fanfic . . . You're so negative Well, why do you use Wikipedia? Because you want information, when it comes right down to it. Same goes for Geneforge. Maybe someone wants to know where the Drakons came from, but isn't a member of these boards? Well, instead of poping $25 for one of the games, they can go look it up. Of course, there is the problem of them actually knowing about it, but that's a different issue entirly. Of course, that's just why I'm popin' 5 bucks a month on somthing I'll never get rewarded for. I can't speak for the other three wiki teams. The Last Archon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Toby-Linn That sounds like a lot of work, why would they move it when they can just keep adding articles to one they've been working on for awhile? But there are two wikis developing simultaneously. Neither know about the other, it seems. And merging the two would be more useful. I already posted on the Wikia one to inform about the existence of Genewiki, and the primary contributor has acknowledged it. Whether he uses it as a source of information or chooses to join it will remains to be seen. Or he may just ignore it. Originally Posted By: Toby-Linn Why don't you just make a definitive one that has all the articles from all the wikis? I could do that, but I'd need sufficient webspace. Or, I could copy all the articles into one of the other existing wikis, but there's two problems with that. The first is, which of the wikis should everything be copied to? The second problem is, I haven't yet played the registered versions of the games, and copying all the articles would risk spoilers. Once I've played the games, I would be more willing to do that. Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Of course, that's just why I'm popin' 5 bucks a month on somthing I'll never get rewarded for. I can't speak for the other three wiki teams. Wikia is free, and I don't think Genewiki is on a paid plan (though I could be wrong). Arancaytar is not, as far as I know, paying anything extra for hosting the wiki beyond what he already pays for hosting all the various sites he hosts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 CM, you posted started this thread to find out what other people thought. I think it has been successful in that regard. Not one person has expressed agreement with you that the existence of multiple wikis is a critical problem that needs to be addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 Actually, there were at least two people who were not against the idea of merging them. Though, that's far from a majority of the people posting here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Not being against an idea, and actually supporting an idea, are two very different things. I stand by my words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 True, Duck and Gnaeus don't seem to have actively supported the idea... Still, it may mean it's not entirely bad. But I'll leave it for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasoned Roamer Doctor J Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I browsed all four of the wikis listed in the top post. In all honesty, i did not find a single useful piece of information in any of them. By useful, i mean [for example] which NPCs are linked to which quests, or how about a list of common equipment found lying around - including weight, resale value, and which ones have in-game use. You know, things that aren't in the FAQ but still might benefit a new player. I've contributed to wikis in the past, and i surely would contribute here if i knew the relevant information. Back to the topic at hand, somebody builds a wiki partly to inform others and partly to amuse themselves. It is this second part that doesn't respond well to being told what to do. Since [iMHO] the above wikis are not particularly informative, i think the only reason they exist is to satisfy the writer's amusement. So there it is. I didn't come to this forum with the intention of raining on anybody's parade, and i apologize in advance if my comments upset you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Well, the wikis (or the two I've looked at, at least) are aiming more at being information on Geneforge as a world than as a game. The walkthrough and/or analysis for each game do a fairly comprehensive job of the latter already. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 I would agree that that information is useful, and could possibly find a place on the wikis; however, the wiki is primarily intended for information on the world rather than the gameplay, as Dikiyoba says. Information such as NPCs who give quests, and also weight, value, and uses of items, certainly qualify as information about the world, though. From the standpoint of a Geneforge historian, they're probably trivial information, but they still could be included. Mentioning things like how much damage a weapon does, or how many hit points a creature has, probably doesn't qualify. These are out-of-universe quantities. The wikis could include both gameplay and world information, though, if it were properly separated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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