Avernum 5, May Update

[Spidweb]

The world design is still progressing at the expected pace. I'm still happy with what is coming out, even though it is a lot of work.

 

Whatever you feel about the Avernum 4 engine, it is very demanding to design for. Even more so, now that heights are in the mix and I know that if I put in too many filler encounters people will jump on me for hypocrisy (because of what I've been writing on RPG Vault).

 

Pretty much every section that doesn't have a town has a hostile area of some sort, generally with some sort of boss-type creature. The bosses near the beginning are fairly straightforward (mages, priests, things that spawn adds), but they'll get fairly baroque later in the game.

 

I have also reworked how I prioritize my time. Actual dungeons with significance get more time than the did before. The first major storyline dungeon has far more scripted events, special stuff, and so on than practically any dungeon in Avernum 4. Having had plenty of practice working with the engine helps a lot.

 

Oh, and for people who missed the interviews, in Avernum 5 you will be Empire soldiers, who have had the misfortune to be sent to the underworld. This is not actually the first official Avernum adventure where you work for the Empire. (That honor goes to the Blades of Exile/Avernum scenario A Small Rebellion, which is coincidentally one of my favorite scenarios I've designed.)

 

So, for the first time in a long time, Avernum is an alien land, full of crazy people that hate you. Writing from this perspective has been a lot of fun.

 

The game is structured in nine parts. Each section has a bunch of optional adventures and quests. Some sections can just be passed through freely. Others require you to do something first. This will disappoint people who wanted to be able to instantly freely roam a huge range. However, I'm not going to design games like that anymore. They are too difficult to balance properly. Sometime, if people are interested, I'll write why. Or maybe you can puzzle it out for yourself. :-)

 

I plan to release the official page and first screenshots in a few weeks. I still hope to have the Mac version out for XMas, though that'll take a few months of serious design grinding. Wish me luck.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[*i]

Sounds very exciting. Look forward to this next adventure.

[Randomizer]

Good luck Jeff.

 

I hope there will be some sections where we get to explore and not too linear a plot. I know that it's harder to balance, but there was a very simple limit on exploration called death. Go beyond what you are capable of and you get to reload. It makes it interesting if you can play better than average.

 

As long as we don't get the return of the Eastern Gallery chitrachs it shouldn't be too bad.

 

It'll be nice to have something near the beginning that has some detail.

[Synergy]

Maybe I'm just weird, but I kind of like not having too much ultimate freedom to go anywhere at any time in the early game. In playing Nethergate, for instance, I find I rack up many quests on my list, and almost spin in circles trying to figure out where to go next and which to do in what order at times. Thankfully, it has bridges which somewhat limit when you can venture further.

 

Somewhere inbetween on accessibility to the world seems best to me. If I were to design a BoA scenario, I would want to create a sojourn that is a long trek with no backtracking at all. Being able to just wander around and exlore is fine if you are explorers. If you are on a mission, you shouldn't really be exploring the world in that fashion, except as you go where you need to be going.

 

-S-

[Nioca]

It sounds wonderful. One thing that's nagging me, though...

 

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

So, for the first time in a long time, Avernum is an alien land, full of crazy people that hate you.

After several generations of peace and coexistence, wouldn't that have abated somewhat by now? Just curious.

[Synergy]

After several generations of living in a green-glowing cave eating mushrooms, you'd be crazy too.

 

-S-

[Spidweb]

"After several generations of living in a green-glowing cave eating mushrooms, you'd be crazy too."

 

QFT.

 

Not everyone in Avernum hates the Empire. Heck, some people in the underworld just came from there. However, some groups of people have long memories. In the real world as well as my fantasy one.

 

One more thing about the way the game is structured. What I really wanted Avernum 4 to be was a journey. I had a lot of Lord of the Rings in my head, and I wanted it to be a long trip through many cool lands. I wasn't as happy with how that came out, because, in my view, the stuff you encountered on the trip wasn't distinctive enough.

 

Avernum 5 I'm trying again. It's a long journey, and the stuff you run into along the way will be much more unusual.

 

But this sort of structure doesn't allow the "giant clump of stuff you can freely encounter all at once." Win some, lose some. If the Shire started out right next to Mordor and Frodo only went on a side trip to visit the elves to pick up a bunch of nice rope and lembas, not as much of a book.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Xaiya]

Quote:

QFT

What does that stand for?

Also, the world isn't going to be exactly alien. Most people have had previous experience playing the Avernum games, so in the areas we are used to, it is not entirely alien.

[Alorael at Large]

QFT = Quoted For Truth. It is an expression of agreement and approval.

 

—Alorael, who has faith in Jeff's ability to make Avernum new and exciting. Well, not Avernum proper so much, but a little addition goes a long way. Maybe a reprise of Dark Waters!

[Slawbug]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
What I really wanted Avernum 4 to be was a journey. I had a lot of Lord of the Rings in my head, and I wanted it to be a long trip through many cool lands. I wasn't as happy with how that came out, because, in my view, the stuff you encountered on the trip wasn't distinctive enough.

I think part of the problem here is that, pretty much everywhere, things were much more mundane than previously. Lava fields that once held an enchained, traitorous haakai, and a battle between demons and wizards that had been frozen in time, became in A4 the site of some random fire lizards, buried herbs, and one nearly empty crypt. The Unsettled Lands once held a mighty dragon and two complex multi-level forts full of different kinds of magic. They were replaced with one big fort full of a zillion pylons. And so on.

[Kelandon]

Huh. That's funny. It sounds as though Jeff is trying to do the same thing that I was trying to do in Exodus. Now he'll put me to shame, and as I play A5, I'll have to keep reminding myself that this is his full-time job, and I just was working on evenings and weekends to make that scenario.

[JMAN123]

Hmm, it seems that while I did not enjoy what ended up being A4, A5 seems to hold more promise in certain areas than what A4 lacked in the dungeon department.

 

On another note, Kelandon, if it were indeed similar to your Exodus, would that really be such a malady to our experience? I think not, but I am but one among many. Time shall tell.

[Ephesos]

...that just makes me wonder again if Jeff ever plays any of our scenarios. Except for the first contest, I mean.

 

Anyway, I'm excited, and I trust that Jeff will yet again surprise us all.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by JMAN123:
On another note, Kelandon, if it were indeed similar to your Exodus, would that really be such a malady to our experience?

Your meaning is obscure.

What I was saying is that Jeff will make something in the same vein as what I made, but much better, and I will play A5 with a constant sense of shame for having been so severely outdone. I don't know that it will impact anyone else in quite the same way.

[Shaken]

So that means that A5 will have the same graphics as A4? In that case, :'[ not good.

[Student of Trinity]

I've only ever played the BoA VoDT demo, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here, but I'd be surprised if Kelandon really had anything to worry about. 'Long trip with lots of cool stuff along the way' is a great game theme, but it's not great for its originality. It's great because there are endlessly many great ways of implementing it, which means there's lots of room for A5 and Exodus to be cool in quite different ways, despite both being odysseys through (and/or beyond) Avernum.

[Kelandon]

His description has more in common with what I was trying to do than just that.

[Micawber]

Add one more voice to the chorus:

 

Yay for Avernum 5! It sounds super-cool.

[Spidweb]

For the record. This thread was the first I can recall ever hearing of a scenario called Exodus. It isn't even on our web site, as far as I can tell. And, as I never even touch scenario submissions, its absence here has exactly nothing to do with me.

 

Part of the reason I don't look at scenarios is that I simply have no time. And part of the reason is to insulate myself from insinuations of plagiarism. Most people in my position avoid looking at user suggested ideas for the same reason.

 

I am sure that nobody here would be so thoughtless as to suggest I was ripping off a scenario designer based on what little information I have released about Avernum 5. But I did want to make all this crystal clear.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[ArchMage81]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
Huh. That's funny. It sounds as though Jeff is trying to do the same thing that I was trying to do in Exodus. Now he'll put me to shame, and as I play A5, I'll have to keep reminding myself that this is his full-time job, and I just was working on evenings and weekends to make that scenario.

I dont see the similarity between Jeffs description of A5 and your scenario named Exodus, the description on your website only says its a journey of adventurers into the sliths lands.

[Deepsteep]

Quote:

Originally written by Shaken:
So that means that A5 will have the same graphics as A4? In that case, :'[ not good.

I'm really wondering why everybody today tends to judge the quality of a game after it's graphics.
I was playing several episodes of Ultima and Wizardry years ago and those games were simply great. They made fun and were extremely exciting. And they delivered graphics that are still unsurpassed by today's games.
These graphics and all the eye candy were realized by an ultra fast graphics card that can deliver billions of polygons at thousands of frames per second without any stuttering while displaying trillions of colors. This fabulous graphics card is manufactured by "Imaginative Power" and is called "Fantasy". Best of all, it's rather cheap ...
Games like the ones produced by Spiderweb use a graphics style that does not show a scenery but describe it. And if you are lucky enough to own one of those grahics cards I talked about above, it then can render the corresponding details to an unbelieveable degree of realism.
If you don't own one of these - sorry, but then you better play TES:Oblivion, even though you should be aware that it doesn't delivery really good graphics ...

BTW: Here are some screenshots of Wizardry

[Randomizer]

With Avernum 4: A New Hope (Formation of the Darkside Loyalists), and Avernum 5: The Empire Strikes Back (the Empire goes after the Darkside Loyalists), does this make Avernum 6: The Return of the Magi where Jeff brings back the powerful mages from the earlier games - Solberg, Rune, X, and a resurrected Erika?

[Xaiya]

Jeff said that Rentar and Erika are gone. Period.

 

So the chances of a resurrected Erika is slim to none.

[Lord Bob]

Quote:

Originally written by Infernal Flamming Muffin:
Jeff said that Rentar and Erika are gone. Period.

Did he not also say there would be no Avernum 4, period?

Of course, I'm glad he went back on his sworn word in that case, but I'm just saying: when you're a game designer trying to get people to buy your stuff so you can feed your family, I'm sure nothing is impossible.

[Spidweb]

"So the chances of a resurrected Erika is slim to none."

 

I'd put the smart money on "none".

 

But there are other members of the Redmark clan. With very different careers and personalities, but with a similar ability to find themselves in the middle of chaotic events.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Milla]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

But there are other members of the Redmark clan. With very different careers and personalities, but with a similar ability to find themselves in the middle of chaotic events.

- Jeff Vogel

This bit sounds interesting indeed. So maybe well see a second cousin or two hanging around? It'd be especially amusing to see an Anama or Darkside Loyalist Redmark.

[Ephesos]

An Anama Redmark?

 

Whoah.

[Spidweb]

"An Anama Redmark?"

 

No true Redmark would tolerate being a member of some marginalized, pissant mini-cult.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Kelandon]

Jeez, Exodus really is not on Spidweb's site. I didn't even notice that until Jeff brought it up. I submitted it at one point. (And since no one seems to understand what I was trying to say on this topic, Jeff included, I'll let it go. I didn't think it was terribly hard to understand, nor that I said it poorly, but apparently it was or I did. It had nothing to do with plagiarism.)

 

Relatives of Erika? This sounds weird. I guess I'll have to see how this plays out, but my first reaction is anxiety that it won't be good.

[Student of Trinity]

I think I understood your point, and that it had nothing to do with plagiarism; we all took for granted that Jeff doesn't look at scenarios. I just don't know Exodus, either, so I don't know how similar A5 is likely to be. But really none of us does. I hope you don't feel bad when it comes out, and until then I hope you won't worry about feeling bad.

[Lilith]

I got what you were saying too. I think what tripped people up is the fact that the idea of comparing one's work to Jeff's is alien to most scenario designers. We're only barely even working in the same medium, let alone the same genre.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

I too understood your point. I was gonna make some wise ass remark, but this is pretty important stuff.

Kel, comparing works of art is a dangerous task. Comparing artists is worse.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
I'll let it go.

I suggest that you do the same.

EDIT: For crying out loud, apparently everything in this thread that I've said has been open to misinterpretation. It would have been better if I had said nothing at all. A5 sounds like it's going to be great, and it sounds like exactly the kind of game that I'd want to play. Reviving Erika by proxy through her relatives sounds a little weird, but I suppose it could be done well. I just have anxiety about it because I thought that Garzahd in A4 was not effective, and reviving people in general doesn't seem like a great idea in this series. But, as I tend to end all of my posts on this subject lately, I guess that Jeff knows what he's doing, so I'll wait and see.

[Alorael at Large]

I actually thought Garzahd's cameo in A4 was a really good idea. It was a little sudden and odd, but it made complete sense with Rentar's character and it was wonderfully creepy.

 

—Alorael, who would love to meet more Redmarks as long as there's a good explanation for their absence from a few decades of important history.

[Spidweb]

Just for the record, having a relative of Erika in the game who performs the same position in the game as Erika would be stupid.

 

I'll just say what's in the game, since it's all stuff you can find out very early.

 

One of your superiors is General Manfred Redmark, a distant cousin of Erika (though, of course, Erika died around the time he was born). The Redmarks were a very influential and powerful political family on the surface (which is how Erika was able to receive such extensive magical training in the first place). Erika's actions caused the family to go into great decline. Understandably.

 

General Manfred has ideas for how to put some luster back on the old Redmark name. Unsurprisingly, they involve you.

 

Doing this ties the new game and the old games together in a way I rather like, while giving me the chance to give more details about how things on the surface work. It's actually pretty tangential to the game as a whole, but I think it's pretty cool.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Slawbug]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
General Manfred Redmark, a distant cousin of Erika (though, of course, Erika died around the time he was born).

Hmm... Erika died in 833. A4 took place circa 855. (There is no exact date given, but from various pieces of information in the game, we know it is very close.)

Depending on how much time has passed between A4 and A5, this Manfred Redmark may turn out to be a pretty young general.

[Ephesos]

Eh, after King Starrus, age matters little to me in terms of generals... and he's a Redmark. He'll be competent.

 

I also liked Garzahd's cameo in A4, and I almost felt some pity for him.

[Kelandon]

Cool. Sounds as though we agree completely, Jeff. Sorry for the confusion.

[Drakemoore]

One thing I would prefer is an option when creating a New Game that allows you to have some dungeon maps respawn like they did in Exile. At times I'd sit around and wait for them to respawn so I could level up more, some would / wouldn't like this so it would be nice IMO if it were added as an option.

[Spidweb]

In Avernum 5, practically all dungeons will have respawning monsters. They will respawn at a slow rate, though, so as not to overpunish people working through them.

 

(The exact figure: Most dungeons will respawn %15-20 of mobs each time it is reloaded.)

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Xaiya]

Quote:

...apparently everything in this thread that I've said has been open to misinterpretation...

I have had that happen to me in most threads.

Anyway, I am very annoyed that I won't be able to play A5 untill 2008...but probably every windows user is.

[Slawbug]

Presumably this doesn't mean infinite XP, since that will still get capped. What it does mean is theoretically infinite gold via item drops. Now we can see who the true munchkins are, as they will fight endless random battles in order to buy every buyable skill for every character. Whoopee...

[Randomizer]

Respawning dungeons means that you can't wander back to pick up another load of loot without paying attention. Nethergate: Resurrection does it this way and it isn't that much of a bother except the no experience part. Although sometimes it's weird to watch a goblin go past you in a corridor while the buffer clears out your excess movement commands and it seems to ignore you.

[Zummi]

All this talk about A5 has got my Haakai senses tingling..I know it's gonna be good..really good

 

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

In Avernum 5, practically all dungeons will have respawning monsters. They will respawn at a slow rate, though, so as not to overpunish people working through them.

 

(The exact figure: Most dungeons will respawn %15-20 of mobs each time it is reloaded.)

 

- Jeff Vogel

My most favorite post in this thread..HUZZAH!!

 

And..how about one of the forum members getting a special mention in A5? You know..a character with their name on them..=D

 

Example:

"You meet the landowner of this farmland around here. He is a middle aged man wearing somewhat impressive robes and he is walking around like a matter-of-factly way. He comes close to you and introduces himself.

 

"Hello! I am Tullegolar. Emperor Tullegolar! And this is my land full of loyal Tullegolites!

 

"Emperor Tullegolar? You swear if you didn't meet any other Avernites here, you'lle be thinking all Avernites are nuttier than goblins who'll threaten experienced Empire Soldiers."

 

(Sorry for the use of Emperor Tullegolar's name..really sorry..XD)

[Xaiya]

It would be funny to place muffins at the beginning of A5. Just watch a character get killed with one bite! After all, muffins are high level.

 

Anyway...

"Hi. I am Imban, you are unlucky enough to cross this random event. Die."

*You die*

That would suck...

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I didn't like Garzahd's cameo only because I think it belittled what was once a great an mysterious character. Come on, exploding in a 'comical' spray of bones and dust? That was pretty funny, but he deserved better. I usually like returning characters, though, and I look forward to other Redmarks, and I still have hopes for even the smallest of Rentar cameos.

 

I'm sad about the respawning monsters. I liked the fact that there were almost none of those in Avernum 4. It gave me a feeling of completeness when I totally cleared an area.

[Mysterious Man]

Bah, I'm almost intrigued now. I might have to break down and buy A3 and A4 now so I'll be ready for A5.

[KnowledgeBrew]

Quote:

I put in too many filler encounters people will jump on me for hypocrisy (because of what I've been writing on RPG Vault).

And you'll have chitrach filled nightmares. Though I would be willing to go up against some chitrachs if it would mean getting to launch a nuke at all their little egg sacks resulting in the extinction of their race.

[Student of Trinity]

Chitrachs in moderation are a cool monster. Their user-contributed graphic is very nice. They're not too hard to kill, but they do heavy damage, so they're a good mid-level fear factor. And they can come out of the ground suddenly, after only a few scritchy-scratchy noises. You have to respect that in a vile insectoid plague. Also, it is a well established feature of chitrachs that there are too many of them, so a certain amount of chitrach swarming is unavoidable now.

 

But there should only be moderately too many of them. A few memorable chitrach swarm encounters, then cut them down to a dull roar.

 

What I'd love is a series of pop-ups about how "You hear a faint scratching noise." Then about the third one says, "Actually, now you can hear that the chitrachs are emerging somewhere far away, and attacking some other poor beggars for a change, instead of you."

[SevenMass]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
What I'd love is a series of pop-ups about how "You hear a faint scratching noise." Then about the third one says, "Actually, now you can hear that the chitrachs are emerging somewhere far away, and attacking some other poor beggars for a change, instead of you."

Arch.. you! now that you have mentioned it, Jeff can no longer do this... (for legal safety)

It would have been perfect humor!