Avernum Tactics

[Fyora Toast With Roamer Butter]

This is a kind of crazy idea. It would be interesting to see Spiderweb do an avernum tactics type game. You would have all the standard Avernum features, but for certain battles you would be able to select units to join you from listings of different units. This would create a mix of a tactical rpg and a regular rpg.

[Toenail Returns]

Sounds interesting.

 

I would only play if I could have two Black Halberds, though.

[Alorael at Large]

Given the way Avernum works, sometimes letting the player control additional characters is more likely to be irritating than interesting. Making any tactical considerations work in Avernum would first require an engine overhaul resulting in a need for tactics.

 

—Alorael, who wouldn't say no to a more tactical Avernum. He would say no to Avernum Tactics. He prefers his RPGs unmixed.

[Dintiradan]

One thing I've thought of is giving the PCs the special ability "Command NPC". They could give commands like "Attack with Bow", "Heal/Bless PCs", "Defend PC #4", etc. to NPCs following the party. Then just have different versions of START_STATE to choose from depending on the value of a SDF set by the ability.

 

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IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

If the rebels manage to trick me, I will make a note of what they did so that I do not keep falling for the same trick over and over again.

[Fort]

Allowing characters to control characters other than the PCs would definitely require some effort and coding on Jeff's part, but I would imagine that the mechanics already work favorably towards such a possibility. The Exile engine, for instance, sharply divided monsters and PCs.

 

However, in Avernum, the monsters have the exact same skill set as PCs and can wield or use items in the basically the same way. When your characters are charmed, I believe they act with basicnpc. In Geneforge, he has already managed to create two separate control systems; one for the shaper and one for his creations.

 

Though being able to directly command a group of NPCs would be great, I really only ask that the characters who join the party be controllable. Then maybe they would be useful for once as more than mindless meatshields.

[Aldin]

I could sort of see a tactics-style idea work for Avernum, though it would mean having fewer characters that are 'yours'. Imagine an Avernum that puts you in the position of one of the castle's agents who goes into various areas of Avernum to stamp out trouble. You are given your mission and the ability to assemble your team from NPCs in the castle and potentially in the area you are going to. Any NPC that joins becomes a PC until you dismiss them.

 

Certain skills and abilities would be more useful for certain areas, so there would be a reason to pick different people for different missions. Some 'in the area' NPCs might come back to the castle to be available permanently for future missions depending on how their plotlines resolve.

 

XP would need to be re-tooled as well as some way to keep equipment/inventory from becoming a hassle. I do think it could be a lot of fun, actually. Among other things, it might give us a chance to play other races without having to worry so much about balance (because we couldn't twink the stats).

 

~Aldin

[Lazarus.]

Dintiradan's idea sounds very interesting as something that could be used in BOA. Its a shame that it couldn't be used for joined NPCs.

[Randomizer]

There was something like that in A2 where you could leave a PC behind in designated spots and replace them with certain NPCs. I never tried it, but they were supposed to have useful skills that you might not have at that point.

 

I would have to see what the NPCs looked like compared to what I would have at that point in the game. It probably would be easier to do in BoA because players would generate NPCs that other players would use.

[Alorael at Large]

There are four NPCs who will join you in A1, A2, and A3. All of them tend to be powerful, especially if you get them early. Their levels depend on your levels but their starting skills are preset and level-independent.

 

—Alorael, who has heard that they have slowed experience gain and leveling to compensate. Since he never keeps them he's not sure how bad it is.

[Fort]

I am pretty sure that they gain experience at the same rate as the rest of the PCs. In A1, I remember that some of their initial special skills are higher than the maximum you could ever get for your original PCs.

[Lazarus.]

Well if they start out at a higher level than your regular PC's then they would gain less exp, even if it was just because of their higher level, not the fact that they were the recruited type and joined you later in the game. I guess eventually your regular PC's would catch up in level, and then everyone would gain exp at the same rate.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Lazarus.:
Well if they start out at a higher level than your regular PC's then they would gain less exp, even if it was just because of their higher level, not the fact that they were the recruited type and joined you later in the game. I guess eventually your regular PC's would catch up in level, and then everyone would gain exp at the same rate.

The problem is it doesn't work that way -- party XP gain in Avernum 3 appears to be based off either the average party level or possibly the level of the highest-level party member, so one high-level character brings the entire party's levelling rate down.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

i dont like the whole idea at all.

 

what i would like though, would be an age of ... -type of strategy game, maybe replaying avernum 1/2. if well made!

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno:
i dont like the whole idea at all.

what i would like though, would be an age of ... -type of strategy game, maybe replaying avernum 1/2. if well made!

I believe you just contradicted yourself.

[Alorael at Large]

Tactical RPG isn't the same as real time strategy or even real time tactical. It means turn-based, among other things, and not at all based on the kind of resource gathering and research that goes into most RTS games like the Age Ofs.

 

—Alorael, who could see a decent RTS game coming out of Avernum. And no, he's not thinking of the Empire War. The First Expedition would work wonderfully as a Myth-like game (or a Myth 2 mod) and the settlement of Avernum by the first exiles would make a good standard build, recruit, and conquer game.

[kaa]

Quote:

The First Expedition would work wonderfully as a Myth-like game (or a Myth 2 mod) and the settlement of Avernum by the first exiles would make a good standard build, recruit, and conquer game.

This would also make a very good A5. A growing world where the adventurer's deeds shape the future.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

i think alorael is quite right there, ephesos.

 

and damn, why didnt i think of the myth series? that would really be perfect... well, not perfect, but great.

 

the settling-thing reminds me of an escape velocity-mod... i very much doubt anybody knows it.. or the game itself. but that one was good. real good. that would be fun.

 

edit: of course, that wouldnt work too well if one didnt ignore that whatever you do in such an a5 doesnt work together with a1.

[Alorael at Large]

You're posting on a heavily Mac-using shareware forum. I'd be surprised if at least half the people here hadn't played EV or at least its sequels/remakes.

 

—Alorael, who isn't sure what the proper term is for the EV games. Successors? Cash cow buddies? Partners in galactic crime?

[Fyora Toast With Roamer Butter]

Here goes some more craziness. I can see a 2D Isometric style dungeon game being fused with one of these two recent independents-- Discord Times or Styrateg. I can see how a much larger more intricate game could be built around the components of say a 2D style adventure game and map interface style game like Discord Times or Styrateg. The graphics could get very interesting, a combination of both architectural building graphics, outside graphics, and dungeon graphics. It might use painted 2D style isometric graphics like in Mythic Wars which is a MMORPG. The only other style of this game is something like Warlords IV or Warlords: Battlecry, or Disciples 2-- these are much more intricate 2D graphics, but they really lack the roleplay elements to make them seem like a complete game. Also, the style is too awkward in both games.

[Ephesos]

Ah, I stand corrected.

 

But the problem with any Avernum game that recreates the First Expedition, as we keep discussing in so many threads, is that everyone dies. Then again, some might take it as a challenge.

 

But it'd make for a pretty depressing ending.

[Fyora Toast With Roamer Butter]

You wouldn't necessarily have to do it as the first expedition, but the followup. Basically the guy who sets down the stakes to map out and build the towns. Different story. These guys would not be in the history books. They would be the founding families who went out and laid the foundations for the towns in Avernum. Different story. Basically go out from the first town and set stakes for the next town, set up mines, etc.

[Alorael at Large]

Truffle Days! Not everyone has to end up dead.

 

It also occurs to me that the only evidence of total slaughter comes from moderately unreliable sources. All the leaders are presumably dead because the First Expedition's artifacts are all left around corpses. Nobody bothered to track down every single cannon fodder soldier sent down. Some could have survived somewhere in Avernum. Some could have made it to the Final Gauntlet before it was the Final Gauntlet and become some of Valorim's first settlers.

 

—Alorael, who only assumes that the tunnel comes out in Valorim. There's not much evidence either way, actually.

[Fort]

Considering that many people and creatures in Avernum do not stay dead for long, I do not see their apparent deaths as problems. Personally, I would like to see some storyline that allows them to play a major part in the founding of the first few Avernite cities. The intervening decades until the Empire started using the caves as a prison could pose a problem, but some canon can be altered, right?

[Alorael at Large]

You have that backwards. No one in their right mind would move into a bunch of caves full of ravenous monsters. Fortunately, the Empire was quite willing to throw people in by force. Cities came somewhat later.

 

—Alorael, who imagined the first few years were quite exciting. People probably came in three types: powerful adventurer, bewildered new arrival, and messily dead.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

just imagine talking to people like thralni, or king micah before he was king micah, but simply micah!

 

actually, im sure that several people survived the first expedition. i forgot why while writing the column above, but who cares.

 

hmm. every avernum needs at least 1 major enemy. what would that be? not the sliths and demons again.. maybe a grand goblin infestation. or dragons. or both. or draglins.

[Toenail Returns]

Quote:

Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno:
hmm. every avernum needs at least 1 major enemy. what would that be? not the sliths and demons again.. maybe a grand goblin infestation. or dragons. or both. or draglins.

GIFTs

[Student of Trinity]

The Mahnatii, a race of short, bloated, purple humanoids who live in a shallower layer of freezing cold caverns, and wield a powerful alien magic based on doughs and batters. After their last great millennial feast, they exercised their innate ability to lie around in sluggish torpor for centuries. They have just awoken, and they're peckish.

[Fyora Toast With Roamer Butter]

There are a lot of creatures that could be good enemies, troglodytes, giants, ogres and other large cave dwellers would have been here first, also aranea, chitrachs, hydras, wyrms, slimes.

 

There would be no cave trees. There would be no cave cows. You would have to somehow find a way to get them from the surface, the first secret portal used to steal cows, sheep, alchemical ingredients, and trees and stuff like that. You would have to somehow tame the first cave lizards. Learn how to make mushroom beer all kinds of things.

 

You would also have to do a lot of trading and plotting. Somehow you would have to deal with the first slith to get various things from the caves.

[Ephesos]

Alternatively, you could go far enough into the settling of Avernum where Erika/the Triad created the moss and the trees... otherwise, it would be very, very dark for the entire game. (Like A4!)

 

Hm... there's an idea. Set a game early in the settling process, and try to track down any surviving member(s) of the First Expedition... because... they know something? Came in contact with Vahnatai and it all gets hushed up after the endgame?

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by I'll Steal Your Toast:
used to steal... trees and stuff like that.

What are they for?

—Alorael, who would put that in his signature if he had one in which he could put anything.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Came in contact with Vahnatai and it all gets hushed up after the endgame?

I think the Vahnatai were sleeping at the time of the First Expedition. There were a few places in A1 where you found hints of their presence.

The First Expediton time to the sealing of Grah-Hoth by the Triad was almost all fighting against the demons. Although the First Expedition lost some members to the Sliths in the Mertis Spiral and the Nephs in the breaking of Demonslayer.

You could start after the sealing of Grah-Hoth and do it up to the creation of the Castle under King Micah. That would leave most of the cities relatively small and plenty of places to explore.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
I think the Vahnatai were sleeping at the time of the First Expedition. There were a few places in A1 where you found hints of their presence.

Yes, and that's what would make one isolated Vahnatai sighting even more impressive/foreboding/unbelievable. It would do interesting things to the plot... and it would approximate the whole "I saw aliens" cliche.

[kaa]

The timescale could be different. It isn't a few hundred days - it takes many years to advance through unsettled lands and build cities.

Maybe the party starts to grow old - lose some strength, gain some wisdom.

[Fort]

Quote:

Originally written by kaa:
The timescale could be different. It isn't a few hundred days - it takes many years to advance through unsettled lands and build cities.
Maybe the party starts to grow old - lose some strength, gain some wisdom.

I would hate it if it took me forever to train up my super PC only to have him get rheumatoid Averthritis or something.

Quote:

Originally written by The Story of Quid:
You have that backwards. No one in their right mind would move into a bunch of caves full of ravenous monsters. Fortunately, the Empire was quite willing to throw people in by force. Cities came somewhat later.

Maybe I gave the wrong impression in my post, but the point I was trying to make is the very point you made at the end there: the First Expedition could not have been founders of the first Avernite cities not only because they were supposedly dead but also because it was quite a few years before the cities were built. My proposed deviation from canon was to have the cities be built almost immediately so that the timelines could overlap without too much magically protracted longevity for the First Expedition.

[Alorael at Large]

The First Expedition was made up of explorers sent by the Empire. The cities were built by undesirables banished to the cave. Any overlap would require more than just changing the timeline. It would require a point during which the Empire was trying to settle, which makes no sense because nobody wants to live in a cave.

 

—Alorael, who will ignore the loonies who decide to live in caves in A4. They probably inhaled too much cave flora.

[Fyora Toast With Roamer Butter]

There are things in caves which the empire would want-- specifically metals, minerals, and gems. Nothing like a sulphur, gem, or gold mine to make an imperial happy. Send the happy exiles to work in the pits and bring back the goods.