Avernum 5, April Update

[Spidweb]

The lumbering beast has finally begun to move. I have completed the first section/town/adventure/tutorial. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it out much before Christmas, but it's certainly moving.

 

The tutorial section is much more of an adventure than before, with scripted events, actual fights, and it gets you involved in the plot. The plot, as promised, is very intricate, and the political intrigue begins pretty much immediately.

 

I'm having a bit more fun writing the dialogue, because the setup for this Avernum game is very different from the previous games. Your starting position is, it's safe to say, completely opposite from what it was before.

 

There are secret doors. But they work differently than they did before. (They'd really have to.) You will never have to find one to complete the game.

 

I am concentrating to cut down on the trash and have a smaller number of bigger fights. This will make the game more interesting for groups, but more punishing for single characters. I will do my best to make sure a singleton can still complete the game on the lower difficulty levels. One change ... smaller parties will get experience from creatures at higher levels than 4 person parties do.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Slawbug]

Sweet on all accounts. Especially the part about having fun while writing the dialogue. That's a good sign if anything is! Grats on the progress.

[Ephesos]

I love it. Can't wait!

[Dintiradan]

Youpi for getting into the action quickly and political intrigue!

 

--------------------

Now is not the time to start being entirely reasonable, Elan.

- Roy (OotS #139)

[Randomizer]

Thanks for reducing the boring parts. You don't have to place all those spoons and other things that can't be sold. Us obsessive compulsives get tired of hauling them back to be sold or placed in pretty piles.

 

Still like to see how it works for singleton characters. The experience penalty at the end was a pain. You might be surprised at the difficulty level that we can do. After all when you need more bodies there are summoning and charm spells for instant allies.

[Lazarus.]

Jeff's on a roll here; the Nethergate remake is in beta, he released the BoE source code, and now he's started on A5. Nicely done.

[Spidweb]

"Thanks for reducing the boring parts. You don't have to place all those spoons and other things that can't be sold. Us obsessive compulsives get tired of hauling them back to be sold or placed in pretty piles."

 

Placing them is a psychological need on my part. You won't be able to sell trivial items anymore, though. So now you have less of a motive to haul around spoons.

 

"Still like to see how it works for singleton characters. The experience penalty at the end was a pain. You might be surprised at the difficulty level that we can do."

 

The Hard and Torment difficulties will be noticably harder in Avernum 5 than Avernum 4. I'm not going to say they'll be impossible for a singleton, but it'll hurt. The singleton experience bonus will remain, though.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Xaiya]

(dances in a way not suitible for people under the age of 128)

 

Will you have more crude humor in the dialoge? I love crude humor. "This livestock seems friendly enough, but it has neither the inclination nor the ability to speak".

 

Funny stuff makes me want to play it more.

[Slawbug]

Actually, I want to second that, though I wouldn't call it crude humor. There were a lot of GREAT sets of dialogue with different livestock, cats, and so on, throughout Exile and also, I think, Nethergate. I miss those details.

[GrimeHead]

Glad to hear that you're having fun Jeff!

 

When I think back to when I first played Exile, it was everything a young boy could have dreamed of. It was about a banished nation upheaving against their malevolent overground Empire, whilst still trying to adapt to the perils of a land they'd been forced into. A mystical world where justice and adventure stood against a shimmering backdrop a twisted caverns and murky lakes!

 

(All of this in 1.7 MB!!)

 

It seems so nostalgic to think about now..

 

Then came Avernum 4. No disrespect, and it's not because I'm now 10 years older, but it just wasn't the same world.

 

I think it was mostly an image problem & partly gameplay.

 

I really hope you take this chance to take us back to that old place we all know and love. And it sounds like thats what you're doing. Secret doors!! We love it!

[Sudanna]

Wow, Jeff. We thank you for this bountiful harvest. Amen.

[Kelandon]

Hmm. Starting position is different from before. It is interesting to imagine what that means.

[GrimeHead]

"Starting position is different from before. It is interesting to imagine what that means"

 

I think this is a good idea. It mean you will either play as an official, such as a mayor or someone with influence. Or someone from the Empire. But most likely as a Vahnatai

[Xaiya]

(slaps face with own hand)

That "" thing as quoting somthing is what Jeff does. No one else can. Also, NO PLAYING VANATAI, this is final (from what Jeff said).

 

And in A1, A2, A4 we have started north east. Must be a different section.

[Randomizer]

Jeff mentioned earlier about a new cave section so I'm guessing that we don't start in Eastern Avernum.

 

Avernum 2 had the chance to start with a fight in the opening fort so it looks like we get to fight something better than rats and goblins at the start.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
Placing them is a psychological need on my part.

Good. You should know that the little things don't go unappreciated, at least not by me.

As for the new starting point... maybe we'll be brigands? That would be such sweet irony.

[GrimeHead]

Rebel Muffin,

 

get a grip, i've made 2 posts.. hardly the most likely person to know "what Jeff does". Oh ****! I did it again, didn't I?

 

(slaps Rebel Muffin repeatedly with lead pipe!)

 

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
Placing them is a psychological need on my part. You won't be able to sell trivial items anymore, though. So now you have less of a motive to haul around spoons.

I for one enjoy the spoons and similar details, and I'm glad to hear they're still in. I've never known why people feel compelled to haul every trowel in the game back to Kriszan and sell them in a glorious trowel-fest...

[wonkyth]

I have to admit that a4 (and a5 will be too[ hopefully]) is good becuase after playing all the Exile games, I new most of it like the back of my hand!

[Ladonna]

What are some of the new mechanics you are introducing into this one Jeff? Anything that you think will stand head and shoulder above previous Exiles/Avernums?

[Jeran Korak]

*Dances around in manic extasy*

 

Oh YeaH oh YEAh OH yeahYEAHYEahHHHyeah!

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Ladonna:
What are some of the new mechanics you are introducing into this one Jeff? Anything that you think will stand head and shoulder above previous Exiles/Avernums?

Quote:

Originally written by Jeff:
i. Elevations are completely in the game. They look nice.

ii. There is now a system of battle disciplines. People with high combat skills will be able to use special abilities. Some of them are cool enough that some mages will be tempted to train in pole weapons.

iii. I have vastly expanded the keyboard shortcuts. You will now be able to target attacks and spells using only the keyboard. (This includes fireballs.)

iv. The plot is very elaborate and cool. I tried for a similar level of intricacy as Geneforge 4: Rebellion.

v. I have also borrowed the much less annoying action point system from Geneforge 4. And a ton of the nice graphical effects too.

vi. The most irritating thing left to be done engine-wise is boats. There will be a lot of water travel.

vii. The Anama are back. Solberg has a decently sized role. Rentar-Ihrno is still dead.

—Alorael, who thinks that entry 2 is the really exciting one here. Hack and slash may be more than simple hack and slash!

[VCH]

Very Good!

[Xaiya]

Quote:

Rebel Muffin,

get a grip, i've made 2 posts.. hardly the most likely person to know "what Jeff does". Oh ****! I did it again, didn't I?

(slaps Rebel Muffin repeatedly with lead pipe!)

You skimmed the CoC, didn't you? No flame wars and no masking cuss words are in it. I have enough people flamming at me.

Also, I gave you a tip. Excuse me if I sound like a mini mod again, but this was against me so I had to stick up for myself (which was easy).

Oh, and you don't know my name here!

Anyway, I think we will start as adventurers. But as for where we start...

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Rebel Muffin in an Airplane:
You skimmed the CoC, didn't you? No flame wars and no masking cuss words are in it.

Actually, the rule is against partially masked profanity. It's okay if you mask out every letter.

[VCH]

Whatever.

[Ladonna]

Quote:

ii. There is now a system of battle disciplines. People with high combat skills will be able to use special abilities. Some of them are cool enough that some mages will be tempted to train in pole weapons.

Indeed....very nice. I certainly don't advocate making the whole game a hack and slash fest, but more combat options will be a big plus. Any little hints about what these might be? Polearms are mentioned, perhaps some form of trip attack? or first strike ability?

[nikki.]

...or an ability where, if you have enough Pole Weapons skill, and a polearm equipped, you could keep enemies one or two squares away. I like the idea of that, especially for spell-casters.

 

Anyway, this all sounds wonderful Jeff, and as usual, I can't wait to see what you manage to come up with.

 

One note of speculation though: Starting position being opposite would indicate experienced rather than inexperienced, or Empire rather than Avernite... at least to me.

 

And secret doors!! Yay!!

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Sage:
One note of speculation though: Starting position being opposite would indicate experienced rather than inexperienced, or Empire rather than Avernite... at least to me.

I think it could just mean something other than starting in a nice comfortable fort. I'm thinking about something similar for my next BoA piece... but probably not what Jeff is doing for A5.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Or maybe Jeff could actually make staffs that aren't those useless ones you find in lizard pens sometimes. Magical ones that add to magic skills and whatnot.

[Verelor]

My Suggestions for Avernum 5:

 

Bring back secret doors! Jeff already said he's doing this, but even then I couldn't stress it enough; Exile/Avernum isn't the same without them.

 

No more Recycling! Recycling is good for the environment and the planet, but not in videogames. Avernum 5 shouldn't re-use any of the same graphics from any previous games except for the sprites and a select number of environmental graphics. To a lesser extent, ditto for sound. It's unthinkable that Jeff's newest games still use graphics and sounds from the original Exile!

 

Animate! This is 2007, yet having timed-animating sprites was standard issue for the most low-end games of 1997. You did it with Geneforge, and, as far as I can tell, you can surely pull it off nicely with Avernum 5. Oldbies might complain upon seeing an animating PC/NPC in their Avernum game, but they've got Exile 1-3 and Avernum 1-4 if they love it so much.

 

More than 4 people! This isn't strictly necessary in my mind, but I liked how in Exile you could have a nice, big party of up to six (though five was my sweet spot), and wasn't too crazy about the maximum of four adventurers in the Avernum remakes. It stuck around for game #4. Raise the bar for Avernum 5, Jeff?...I can always dream.

 

And what's up with Jeff not answering the questions on this thread lately?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Verelor:

 

Quote:

And what's up with Jeff not answering the questions on this thread lately?

Dikiyoba hopes it means he's actually working on A5 instead.

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Verelor:
No more Recycling! Recycling is good for the environment and the planet, but not in videogames. Avernum 5 shouldn't re-use any of the same graphics from any previous games except for the sprites and a select number of environmental graphics. To a lesser extent, ditto for sound. It's unthinkable that Jeff's newest games still use graphics and sounds from the original Exile!

Getting new graphics and sound is expensive. The old ones are perfectly serviceable. Not going to happen.

Also, what graphics do you mean? Sprites and terrain are almost all the graphics. You really want new graphics for the spell buttons?

I am 99% sure that no sound or graphics are left from E1. I'm pretty sure there aren't even any left from E3 except a handful of items.

Quote:

Animate! This is 2007, yet having timed-animating sprites was standard issue for the most low-end games of 1997. You did it with Geneforge, and, as far as I can tell, you can surely pull it off nicely with Avernum 5. Oldbies might complain upon seeing an animating PC/NPC in their Avernum game, but they've got Exile 1-3 and Avernum 1-4 if they love it so much.

Combat could be slightly more animated, maybe, but I think A4 pushes the limits of turn-based animation. Having everyone smoothly step one tile every time you move would look creepy.

—Alorael, who has gotten used to having only four characters. Having five in Nethergate feels crowded, and six seems positively unmanageable.

[Verelor]

Just a few of the sounds and item graphics from the original Exile, IIRC, are still left over in Avernum 4.

 

Your argument against sprite animation completely breaks down, I think, when you consider that all four Geneforge games have accomplished exactly what I am talking about with sweeping success.

 

And you may like having only four in a group (4 or 5 is the preference I have, myself), but that doesn't mean that a niche of people wouldn't like the feature the be there as an option, as many apparently did when playing Exile.

[Randomizer]

Jeff's working on getting a new Nethergate: Resurrection beta ready for Monday. He wants to get this game out as soon as possible.

 

He'll respond to this thread when he feels like it.

[Alorael at Large]

Animation works in G4 because movement is real-time, not turn-based. Animating turn-based movement would either slow things down painfully or become unspeakably bizarre-looking.

 

—Alorael, who agrees that A5 could have animated movement in combat. It just has to be limited to the times when only one thing is moving at a time.

[Nepharim]

May I just ask one question- will there be more Slithzerikai/Nephilim sprites available than in Avernum 4?

 

It was kind of a letdown when creating a party of four Slithzerikai, and having only 2 sprites to choose from, or whatever they're called.

 

More is better!

[Randomizer]

Jeff said that there would be more character sprites in A5 including at least 2 more for nephils and 2 more for sliths.

[Andraste]

Quote:

Originally written by 10 Minutes to Webster:

—Alorael, who has gotten used to having only four characters. Having five in Nethergate feels crowded, and six seems positively unmanageable.

I just finished a Nethergate game with 6 characters. It gets really awkward in tight spaces, and nigh impossible to run away from dangerous rooms.

Still, I'm excited to hear that the starting position will be different! And the new Nephil and Slith graphics will be good.

[Verelor]

Who says Avernum 5 has to have turn-based movement?

 

It won't ruin the Avernum 'feel', I can promise; not if he brings back secret doors, torhces/spells for lighting, and elevation.

[CharonX]

And another question - will Avernum 5 go back to minimized overland + zooming into dungeon/city/whatever mapwise?

 

I know Avernum is a cave, but instead of the majestic vastness of cave-space of Avernum 1-3, Avernum 4 just felt cramped.

 

The feeling just aint the same if running through a city five times is almost as long as running to the next city.

[Erika Maroonmark]

Different starting position? Hmm, maybe we'll get to start out at Fort Remote–that's pretty far away from previous ones!

[Frozen Feet]

A weird thought just struck me...

 

Jeff said that the Anama are back. He also said the starting position would be completely different.

 

Am I the only who's imaging a connection between these two sentiments?

[Ephesos]

*shudder*

 

Not completely sure I want to start in that position.

[Kelandon]

I suppose any joke about positions that one wouldn't want to be in is too obvious here. I will restrain myself.

[Slawbug]

What is this, the Anama Sutra?

[Erika Maroonmark]

"Who would not give up willingly all matrimonial ambition,/ To rescue such an one as I from his unfortunate position…" </Pirates of Penzance>

[Kennedy]

What about multiple endings and factions? Like in Geneforge where the factions and what you did for them affected the final outcome. Maybe the player will have the choice of either keeping the peace between Avernum and the Empire, or one or Avernite sepratist / oldschool Empire loyalist who want the other side completely wiped out. Maybe even working for the Vahnati to turn Avernum and The empire against each other!

 

As for the new starting point, I'm guessing the player starts in Valorim at the new Avernite settlement they were thinking of building up there.

[Nioca]

Considering that Jeff specifically stated that they would be exploring a new section of the caves, odds are low that they would start on the surface.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:
Considering that Jeff specifically stated that they would be exploring a new section of the caves, odds are low that they would start on the surface.

I don't see why. In E/A3 you start in the caves but spend most of the game exploring the surface.