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Avernum V


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That was a continuity question, I believe. The question is: since scrying exists in the Avernum universe (where and in what context? I remember hearing about it but have forgotten), how can there be a "new" part of the caves? Any part of the caves anywhere near Avernum would've been discovered already.

 

The answer, I suspect, is that there are parts of the caves that are not currently inhabited (and not accessible in A1 or A2) that are also habitable and reachable by devious means not available to A1/2/4 adventurers. Therefore, there will not be a continuity problem.

 

But then, if Jeff pulls another ZKR ("Here's a new part of the cave not related to anything you know about the caves! Just go with it!"), I will be mildly annoyed.

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Scrying only works on what you look for, presumably. Excess population looking for new frontiers has never been Avernum's problem. Excess frontiers with horrible monsters are the problem. As soon as Avernum ran out of obvious sources for new terrors, the mages probably breathed a collective sigh of relief and put the covers back on their crystal balls.

 

In times of peace, exploration becomes more interesting, especially when you could find untold riches or, even better, exciting new dungeons to delve into. Maybe both!

 

Heck, all it requries is another portal to Lower Avernum, a small quake that opens new tunnels, or a newly dug cellar that ends up being more exciting than first expected.

 

—Alorael, who didn't hear anyone crying foul at the sudden appearance of cave systems beneath the Great Cave and the Eastern Gallery. Another layer below that could be found, and another, and another, and whoops, it looks like there's a Greater Cave down there!

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Quote:
Originally written by AlO RLY?:
—Alorael, who didn't hear anyone crying foul at the sudden appearance of cave systems beneath the Great Cave and the Eastern Gallery.
I was under the impression that chitrachs dug them out... at least in the Eastern Gallery.

I just want to blame chitrachs, honestly...
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I seem to remember Erica scrying in A1 or A2 (seems like the sort of thing she'd do), and Aimee and probably some of the dragons (Khoth/Sulfras?). If so then it's perfectly possible that they all knew about plenty of other caves that were undiscovered by the rest of Avernum, including the Triad mages. The dragons at least knew about the vahnatai lands, and Erica wouldn't necessarily have any reason to let on about all the other stuff she knows. I got the feeling she likes to keep an air of mystery.

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There are other areas to Avernum. Most of the explorers were looking for a route to the surface. All those messages about miles of tunnels leading upward to dead ends. Between that and the demons, monsters, etc., the others areas wouldn't have been important enough to include in earlier maps. All you need is a reason to go there.

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Caves are really like that: little inconspicuous holes occasionally lead to enormous new areas.

 

For instance, everyone should visit Carlsbad Caverns, in New Mexico, if they possibly can. And if you go, register online (far in advance) to take the 'Hall of the White Giant' extra guided tour. (The other extra guided tours are also worth taking, but it is the best.) You'll walk to a nondescript corner of the public access route from the surface, wait until no-one is around, then duck into a crack in the wall -- and be gone for hours.

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Caves are really cool. They're one of the better things about games, exploring wise. I loved the fact that there would be a hidden wall in the Exile series, which sometimes led to a cave. You just get that much more to explore. Avernum wasn't so much like that, I think, as I don't recall there being any hidden cave walls outside of towns and dungeons.

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i started playing A3 again shortly after finishing A4 i noticed that i really missed out doors and choosing to go into combat mode was just amazing (i missed bumping into enemies) this made me think that A5 would be better if it was more like A3

 

I did enjoy A4 but i enjoyed A3 so much more

 

The world also felt so much bigger and it is packed with amazing weapons quests

 

What i am trying to say is maybe we should go back to the old engine and graphics i doubt any of us play Jeffs games for how good stuff looks that was never spiderwebs strong point

 

I relize how unlikely us going to the old engine is but perhaps strong support will atleast encourage jeff to fix up sevral things to make A5 feel like A3

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Quote:
Originally written by rantalot:
this made me think that A5 would be better if it was more like A3

I did enjoy A4 but i enjoyed A3 so much more

What i am trying to say is maybe we should go back to the old engine and graphics i doubt any of us play Jeffs games for how good stuff looks that was never spiderwebs strong point
I couldn't disagree more. As soon as I'd finished A4, I dloaded A3 with the intent of playing the demo then buying the rest of the game, but I just can't summon up the enthusiasm for it - I haven't even finished the demo part. I vastly prefer the new engine, and hope that A5 continues to use the same engine and graphics as A4.
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The engine you prefer is the engine you start out with. There are diehard Exile fans out there, even though the Nethergate engine used in A1-3 is superior, with better graphics. If you're used to the BoA interface, A4 will seem annoying, and vice versa. Besides, I think JV mentioned that he wouldn't be returning to the old engine.

 

--------------------

IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

I will only employ bounty hunters who work for money. Those who work for the pleasure of the hunt tend to do dumb things like even the odds to give the other guy a sporting chance.

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One key feature of the older Avernum engine that I miss dearly in A4 is the ability to kill things without having to go into combat mode.

 

Just bashing the front guy into whatever weak monster decided to amble up made exploring dungeons a lot less tedious, -particularly- ones that were a lower level than the characters (IE going back and cleaning something out).

 

This is basically a request to put that back into Avernum 5. :3

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I've noticed on this thread a lot of people asking for new playable races. The Vahnati are right out, and making up an entirely new race would throw a wrench into the games' continuity.

 

But what already exists that is probably intelligent enough to be a PC?

 

  • Goblins
  • Eyebeasts
  • Drakes/Dragons
  • Spiders
  • Roaches
  • Giants
  • Troglodytes
  • Ogres
  • Demons/Imps

And what of those is actually humanoid enough and the right size to, at least, wear the same equipment as everyone else?

  • Goblins
  • Troglodytes
  • Demons/Imps

AND have, at some point, been known to cooperate for one reason or another with someone besides themselves?

  • Uh. Goblins

I think they'd be our best bet for a new race, and I don't even like them very much. (maybe I've missed someone though..) But hey, if there can be Goblin Bandits and Goblin Shamans, maybe in some time and place there could be Goblin Adventurers. It's a long stretch, but who knows.

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Quote:
Originally written by Benamas:

  • Uh. Goblins

I think they'd be our best bet for a new race, and I don't even like them very much. (maybe I've missed someone though..) But hey, if there can be Goblin Bandits and Goblin Shamans, maybe in some time and place there could be Goblin Adventurers. It's a long stretch, but who knows.
I suppose troglodytes could work too.
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Ok my summary of what I thought of Avernum 4:

 

The indoor/outdoor unification:

- It was an interesting experiment, but I think I prefer the way it was in the previous games. It just feels so much bigger in the previous games, and the towns are so disproportionate in size.

 

The lack of elevation:

- This added a whole new dimension to the previous games (literally, heh).

 

No arrows:

- This is definitely an improvement

 

No food:

- This is also definitely an improvement

 

No boats:

- Obviously the different exploration boats give you is more fun.

 

What I think I'd prefer in Av 5 would be that not most items can't be sold for 1gp, I can't help myself going back and forth collecting all of them!

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By Reve:

Quote:
What I think I'd prefer in Av 5 would be that not most items can't be sold for 1gp, I can't help myself going back and forth collecting all of them!
Obsessive-compulsive? Seriously, visit a psychologist, unless you find spending ten minutes to net your party twenty more gold time well spend.

 

--------------------

IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.

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It doesn't take ten minutes of extra time!

 

Just kill everything in the zone, run around picking up everything in the zone, and then run back and dump everything into three piles: keep, sell, and trash. Run off to another zone and repeat. Once there are decent piles of goods to keep and sell, just run them back to the nearest town. Sell what needs to be sold and dump the rest by a pylon.

 

Dikiyoba is not obsessive-compulsive. The fact that Dikiyoba's colored T-shirts are hung on matching hangers and arranged in groups according to color means nothing.

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Quote:
Originally written by Reve:
The indoor/outdoor unification:
- It was an interesting experiment, but I think I prefer the way it was in the previous games. It just feels so much bigger in the previous games, and the towns are so disproportionate in size.
Agreed.

Quote:
The lack of elevation:
- This added a whole new dimension to the previous games (literally, heh).
I felt that this was very lame. I think that this is what you mean, too.

Quote:
No food:
- This is also definitely an improvement
There was food. It just didn't work the way that it had in previous games. In Exile, you needed it to live. In Avernum, it allowed you to rest (but if you felt like walking back and forth outdoors, you never needed to use it). In A4, it healed you.

Quote:
No boats:
- Obviously the different exploration boats give you is more fun.
Yeah, I missed boats, too.
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I think the engine used in A4 didn't give nearly the same kind of atmosphere for the one used in the previous Avernum's. That being said, hopefully Jeff will use some kind of "hybrid" engine, bring the best of both engines to bear.

 

As for Avernum 5's setting, bringing back old foes never really made anything new. Maybe do it in the same game, where the foe either makes an escape or you never see them "die" only to reappear later and die horribly at your hands.

 

Also, consider that the lands of Avernum that we all know and love have had at least three groups of adventurers (A1, 2 and 4) running around and beating the #$!* out of any slightly evil looking creature. Goblins pop up, sure. But eventually races are going to start going extinct and certain areas are going to become rather barren in terms of things to kill and adventure against.

 

There were those few places to the far northwest in A2 with the Empire checkpoints you couldn't get past. It'd be interesting to find out what lies beyond them, by now most (if not all) of the Empire fortifications would have crumbled, making some nice ruins for adventurers to come and pillage for anything that might have been left behind.

 

As for style of play, A2 has to be my favorite. You actually felt that your groups actions affected the world, for instance killing the perma-hasted Empire general Limoncelli (sp?). A3 added a nice idea as well, having towns "fall" to the plagues after a certain amount of time. It'd be interesting to see the war being fought in a Wing Commander style, i.e if you fail a mission, the enemy would gain an advantage over your "side" and possibly could take a town/fort or inflict massive losses on their enemy's army. Also in A2, you had to earn your rank and work your way up to see the King, proving your worth to Avernum and in the process gaining use of resources such as the portal in the Tower of Magi.

 

The only question is this; who'd wage war against Avernum? They're at peace with the Empire, the Vahnatai are rather overused, IMHO, as an opposing "side", the empire of Sliths beyond Bahssikava is 1. pretty far off and 2. as Kelandon said, in an unknown condition. Also these Sliths are supposedly a more civilised and peaceful people then the Sliths in the caves of Avernum. The Nephilim haven't had any significant forces in as long as I know, even those in the forts of A1 weren't exactly trained crack troops. Demons, WAY overused plot device there. Goblins, they'd probably make decent cannon fodder in an army but I can't really see Goblins making up their own "empire". In fact, I can't see any of the other humaniods of Avernum (giants, ogres, whatnot) forming an empire, of themselves or each other.

 

One thing that I know I’d like to see more of is the politics of the Empire, and its differing parties. We saw a brief sign of it in A3; those trying to stop you from seeing the Empress in Blackcrag Fortress. If it is as delicate as it was made out to be, it’d be a nice change of pace from the caves of Avernum and blindly smashing the first slime to crawl out from between the rocks.

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Quote:
Originally written by Dastal:
Well, A5 could always be A0, you know, the First Party. In fact, I'm working on a little something along those lines, though I do change the history around a bit, well, if it's ever finished, you'll see.
Well, this has been discussed a few times, but there's just the issue that everybody in the First Expedition dies at the end. Very Shakespearean, but poor form for an RPG. It'd be like in the new King Kong game when you have to play out Kong's death scene.

The motivation is gone when you know you're going to die, and very significant plot warping would be required to let the party escape unscathed.

Unless, that is, you mean the first bands of Avernites to spread out. That might be a bit more interesting.
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Like I said in a previous post, the Abyss is the new Avernum. Avernum's criminals are sent to the Abyss and sooner or later the Empire will want to start sending people there too. There are also tons of magical and mysterious treasures in the Abyss seeing as how Erika, Pyrog, Khoth, and Grah-Hoth lived around that area. The Empire's main forces were stationed in the Abyss and the Empire couldn't have taken everything when they left and I bet the Empire left all sorts of nasty stuff there in hopes of one day getting their revenge on Avernum. Plus wasn't the Empire teleporter also in the Abyss? So at the very least there's a lot of errant magical energy wrecking all sorts of havoc.

 

I would also really like to know what happened to the Scimitar now that their benefactor Erika is dead. It would be interesting to see some former Scimitar members trying to bring some order to the Abyss.

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Quote:
Originally written by Vicheron:
Like I said in a previous post, the Abyss is the new Avernum. Avernum's criminals are sent to the Abyss and sooner or later the Empire will want to start sending people there too. There are also tons of magical and mysterious treasures in the Abyss seeing as how Erika, Pyrog, Khoth, and Grah-Hoth lived around that area. The Empire's main forces were stationed in the Abyss and the Empire couldn't have taken everything when they left and I bet the Empire left all sorts of nasty stuff there in hopes of one day getting their revenge on Avernum. Plus wasn't the Empire teleporter also in the Abyss? So at the very least there's a lot of errant magical energy wrecking all sorts of havoc.
I think you're being a little too inclusive in judging what is and isn't the Abyss. It's just the area between the Chasm of the Spire and the east gates of Bargha.

The Teleporter was just north of the Abyss. Khoth was far to the north, Pyrog off to the west (not to mention dead and thoroughly looted by the time of the Empire's occupation). Grah-Hoth lived to the west. And the Abyss had been pretty much cleaned up by the time of Avernum 4 (cleaned out of Empire surprises, that is).
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1. 2Dastal: once I had an idea that Karzoth and Mariann (male and female leaders of the First Expedition) betrayed the rest of the party and became a sort of lesser demons, dealing with Gra-Hoth in exchange for information about human race.

2. 2 *i and 2 Vicheron: Something to say about Demons. What if the creatures of Ermarian we know as demons are (were) represented from only one side? I have a plot, based on theory of ancient history of Ermarian, that Grah-Hoth and Adze were sort of (Sss-Thsss)-s and Garzahds of their nation and were vanished to Avernum long before Sliths. Wherefrom? Up to you.

3. In A5 I would like to see a reunion of people and Vahnatai in face of ... well here I expect smthng like "old enemy" or "new disaster".

4. I expect something intriguing, like Erika Redmark and Rentar-Ihrno as Crystal Souls (who knows, may be Bon-Ihrno was waiting outside of Rentar's castle for them). That's also in my plot.

5. 2Drakefyre: Now I can see, somebody here can still agree with my theory.

6. And more, I expect, that A5 will have much more of a plot, not a battle. It will be much more interesting to have an opportunity to prevent a cataclysm, than to fight tons of monsters when disaster is here. And that is what my plot is proud of.

7. I dont think that Shakespeares end doesn't fit RPG style. At least it fits when your hero has to become an eternal guardian of the world it lives in even if that means to stay forever somewhere between the living space and the ... hmm... Where do demons originate?

 

Edit: And Abyss is not a new Avernum. Just a piece of land of Avernum with NOTHING to explore. Otherwise such anchorites as Erika and Khoth wouldn't have lived there, I guess.

Edit2: some typo

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I would really like to know a bit about the gods or deities they worship. Something is giving the priests power. Plus there was an angel in Avernum 1.

 

Oh and I really hope that there are more debuffs in A5. Curse from the Exile games should be brought back, maybe web too. A lower resistance spell would be really nice too. It's really annoying how you constantly get cursed by monster but you can't curse them back.

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2Meeshka (hee-hee): Is this a Blades plot you're designing? Please don't. Limit yourself to one villain. Besides, I've got dibs on Adze. :p

 

Vicheron: I think JV purposely avoided detailing the priests and gods of Avernum. Other than the Anama and the Church of the Divine Lucre (which doesn't count), there are no major religeous organizations.

 

If someone really wants to do an A0, I'd recommend a scenario revolving around helping Micah establish Avernum, defending from sliths, etc.

 

--------------------

I can't find the 'anykey'!

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(italics added for emphasis)

 

Quote:
Originally written by Meeshka:

4. I expect something intriguing, like Erika Redmark and Rentar-Ihrno as Crystal Souls (who knows, may be Bon-Ihrno was waiting outside of Rentar's castle for them). That's also in my plot.

Have you played A4? If not, do so and tell me this is still a good idea.
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2 Dintiradan:

Quote:
Originally written by Dintiradan:

Is this a Blades plot you're designing? Please don't.

It is not a one, so I don't. I didn't say it's a scenario, but a plot. I don't write BoA scenarioes. Just the ideas. Like one where UFO is landing Ermarian and killing every super warrior and overhero with blaster cannons. wink

Quote:
Besides, I've got dibs on Adze.
What is that for? I'm not going to use him anywhere. Well, almost nowhere, but I promise, I'll pay for the usage! smile

 

2 Ephesos :

Quote:
Have you played A4? If not, do so and tell me this is still a good idea.
I didn't and definitely I won't be able in a month. So if it's not a big spoiler, can you tell me in couple of words, what's wrong with Rentar as a Crystal Soul? Or may be there's a link you can post to me?

 

To Dikiyoba :

Quote:
Dikiyoba thinks homophones aren't fun unless being used as a pun.
Was it that you are against homophones used in personal references?

 

Edit: How on earth can I subscribe to this topic? I diddn't get any notices on the answers confused

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You cannot. UBB doesn't have this feature.

 

However, I made an rss feed once that allows you to see the latest replies on a certain forum or topic. You can put it into any feed aggregator (http://reader.google.com and http://www.bloglines.com are two good ones; Opera and Firefox have built-in tools for this) and receive notifications whenever new things are posted.

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Quote:
Originally written by Meeshka:
2 Ephesos :
Quote:
Have you played A4? If not, do so and tell me this is still a good idea.
I didn't and definitely I won't be able in a month. So if it's not a big spoiler, can you tell me in couple of words, what's wrong with Rentar as a Crystal Soul? Or may be there's a link you can post to me?
Um... it is a spoiler. A big spoiler. A very, very, very big spoiler. In fact, it's such a big spoiler that I feel the need to do THIS .
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I fixed the thing so that it now validates as an RSS feed (there were some problems before).

 

Google sometimes takes a while before the feed is updated - any web aggregator does. Also, I don't know any service that sends you email updates for any RSS feed you enter - FeedBlitz does, but only once a day, which is extremely slow for Spiderweb.

 

But Thunderbird, Firefox and Opera can all parse a feed.

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Going back an earlier part of this thread, I wanted to comment on Jeff's statement about the Vahnatai. As a registered spidweb fan since E1, I have to disagree that one major reason for the Vahnatai's coolness is their alienness. For me, in A2 (the only one where I have liked them at all) they were similar to Tolkien's elves. Ancient, wise, powerful. Human, really, just nobler and wiser. Rentar-Dumbo (that's my favorite of her "titles") I always thought was annoying. In E2/A2, she was an isolated weirdo who never talked to anyone. Thinking that she would be the dominant figure in Vahnatai politics for the next 50 years is almost unbelievable. Anyway, E3 disappointed me deeply with the plot twist, and A4 hasn't changed that (though I'm only to Dharmon, so far). I really hope with A5, the noble side of most of the Vahnatai in E2/A2 reasserts itself.

anyway, Jeff, I have much enjoyed your games over the years. Thanks.

 

--I have now gotten to the point that I realized that Jeff agrees with me about at least some of the above. Should have waited before posting...

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Rentar-Dumbo is not that different from other powerful wizard type characters. Erika, Rone, X, Linda, Garzahd and even Solberg are all pretty eccentric. Erika wasn't into politics but Rone became the King's advisor, and Linda ran the Tower of Magi and they even let her back after the first incident.

 

About the plot of A5, did anyone find it a bit convenient that King Micah just happened to have a genius son when Avernum needed one? Whatever happened to his other son and what about his wife? His other son has a legitimate claim to the throne and could potentially be used by people who want to destroy Avernum. It would be interesting to see a faction trying to cast doubt on Starrus' claim to the throne and rallying to have Micah's other son take over.

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Quote:
Originally written by Vicheron:
About the plot of A5, did anyone find it a bit convenient that King Micah just happened to have a genius son when Avernum needed one? Whatever happened to his other son and what about his wife? His other son has a legitimate claim to the throne and could potentially be used by people who want to destroy Avernum. It would be interesting to see a faction trying to cast doubt on Starrus' claim to the throne and rallying to have Micah's other son take over.
Micah's other son was a bit of a dunce... I doubt he survived long in Avernum, even locked away in the Castle. I assume that Micah's wife died of the manifold diseases and syndromes associated with prolonged cave-dwelling.

I mean don't forget... Micah's dead as well by the time A4 starts.
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Quote:
Originally written by Ephesos:
Micah's other son was a bit of a dunce... I doubt he survived long in Avernum, even locked away in the Castle. I assume that Micah's wife died of the manifold diseases and syndromes associated with prolonged cave-dwelling.

I mean don't forget... Micah's dead as well by the time A4 starts.
I know that Chevyn is an idiot but that just makes it easier for him to be manipulated. A group like the Darkside Loyalists could try to frame Starrus for a murder or make people think that Starrus isn't really Micah's son, then use Chevyn to challenge Starrus' rule and start a civil war. Most people in Avernum don't remember that Chevyn is an idiot. The Chevyn supporters could just say that all the rumors about Chevyn being an idiot was started by Starrus, who usurped Chevyn's rightful position as king of Avernum.
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