Avernum 5, June Update

[Spidweb]

We finally have set up the Avernum 5 page here:

 

http://www.avernum.com/avernum5/index.html

 

Since many of the neat new graphics aren't done (we have a pretty cool selection of new creatures coming up), these shots mostly have older stuff. This will, of course, change as we get closer to release.

 

The game world is about 40% done. I've been putting a lot of effort into having lots of funky scripted encounters, so it's been exhausting, but I've very happy with how it's coming together. Balancing it will be a bear, though.

 

Still shooting for the Mac version being out just before Thanksgiving. I'll have to put in some weekends, but having a product out for Black Friday is worth it.

 

Now back to the windows Nethergate beta reports. Gah. Will be glad when that's done.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Locmaar]

Well, I'll repost here what I've written in the other thread: I'm thrilled. 40% already? Way to go.

[Randomizer]

Thanks for making the effort. Can't wait to see the new stuff so we have something to think about instead of just hacking our way through.

 

Battle discipline looks interesting since now fighters have their own version of spells to increase combat abilities. I'm wondering what fatigue means. I see you kept some Avernum 4 graphics including the Geneforge guardian graphic.

[Thralni]

I'm intrigued. The assasin Vahkohs, huh? Is he a relative of that vampire, what was he called? Vahkos, no?

 

Anyway, I'm very pleased to finally hear something about it. I have been checking and rechecking the news page of SpiderWeb lately again and again over the past few weeks. Thanks for putting such effort.

 

EDIT: You know, that screenshot, down left, reminds me alot of the intro screen of Avernum 3. I like it.

[Student of Trinity]

Preparing a 'Well-Aimed Blow' looks like a very interesting battle discipline. If it takes a whole round to do this, it might be way too expensive, but if it takes a few AP, that could present some nice tactical choices. It would be very nice indeed if the battle disciplines ended up giving fighter types something more like the casters' spell repertoires, instead of the very limited choice of whom to clobber.

 

I also like the sound of the plot. Playing Empire troops in Avernum offers a lot of fresh scope, and hunting an assassin who is actively hunting back sounds as though it should be both fun and believable. What I mean is that an assassin who has only reached Avernum somewhat ahead of the party would realistically mount exactly the sort of series of gradually more dangerous ambushes and attacks that make a good RPG plot.

 

If we were chasing a rogue mage or warrior, it would be hard to understand why they didn't immediately attack us directly, and squash us. But from an assassin you can expect indirect attacks, prepared over some time; and even a very dangerous assassin might realistically take quite some time to mount a deadly attack, in an unfamiliar environment. Meanwhile they could have a good reason to mount the necessary series of weaker attacks, just to win time to mount better attacks.

 

So I can imagine this being a plot that we can really take seriously. Cool. The man in black fled across Avernum, and the gunslingers followed. Bring it on!

[Kelandon]

Looks neat!

 

Uh... that's about all I have to say at the moment.

[Dintiradan]

Vahkohs? Like, killing him in Exile / Avernum 3 and DwtD wasn't enough?

 

Meh. Third time's the charm.

 

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Right now I'm having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

- Steven Wright

[Slawbug]

I have to admit, after all the talk about not bringing back Rentar-Ihrno, I really didn't expect another twice-recycled villain. Meh. Otherwise it sounds cool. Battle disciplines sound like the biggest change in the Avernum skill system yet -- could be quite neat.

[Nioca]

Of all the days to have a server problem, my server just had to choose today. It refuses to load several pages, including Spiderweb. So I can't see it.

[Ceylon]

The game engine of course appears to be largely similar, although I noticed some indication of a fatigue rating on your characters. I am sure there will be neat bells and whistles.

 

The real thrill of course will likely be the storyline. Here is what Jeff gave us:

 

Quote:

The surface world is ruled by the Empire. Its power is absolute. Its control is unchallenged. And, as a soldier of the Empire, you have a good, comfortable life ahead of you. But then a rebel named Vahkohs tried to assassinate the Empress, and everything went wrong for you.

 

The villain fled somewhere into Avernum, an underworld nation of eccentrics, misfits, and barely civilized monsters, most of whom hate the Empire. And that is where you are going. You must find Vahkohs, while dealing with spies, betrayal, and assassins at every turn.

 

The enemy is waiting for you. You will only survive his attention with the help of these strange cave dwellers. If, of course, they don’t kill you first.

 

Good luck getting things working (or waiting for them to work).

[Spidweb]

Vahkohs is a typo, and a pretty dumb one. I blame lack of sleep. I'll get it changed to the correct name asap.

 

Edit: Fixed. And, if you have ever wondered how I can keep like a dozen games straight in my head, there's your answer. I can't. :-)

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Dintiradan]

Ah, makes sense now (though the screenshots page still lists Vahkohs as the villain ).

 

It'll be interesting to see how Dorikas and his lackeys fight in this one. Presumably, having all of his forts sacked in Avernum 4 would have a bad effect on his power base. I remember hearing something about A5 being set in a new section of the caves; is this still the case?

 

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The other day I was arrested for scalping low numbers at the deli.

- Steven Wright

[Slawbug]

I look forward to a legion of Vahkohs-related jokes in betatesting and early release.

[Spidweb]

"Presumably, having all of his forts sacked in Avernum 4 would have a bad effect on his power base."

 

The Darkside Loyalists are a small but intense group, and they have a natural and growing constituency: the old guard of the Empire who are infuriated by the tolerance (they say weakness) shown by Empress Prazac at the Avernum 3 and beyond.

 

After the incredibly provocative act of trying to kill Empress Prazac, Dorikas has had to flee to a remote and savage area, where he has had time to prepare for those who would hunt him. Even though he is not about to take over or instantly destroy the world or whatever, I think that you will find him an adequate foe. :-)

 

Unless, of course, you decide to join him.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Xaiya]

Join him? As in killing the Emperess?

She is a good one, so I will kill her on my second playthrough.

 

I'm am glad, though, that I hunted him in Avernum 4. This way, I know his name and some about him.

[Kelandon]

Ah, Dorikas. We kinda figured he'd be the focus of A5. That's good news, I think.

[VCH]

Wasn't Dorikas killed in A4?

[Nioca]

No, he fled when you got close to killing him. That said, I hope I have more luck this time around then I did in the A4; I couldn't beat him in A4.

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
The game world is about 40% done.

Now back to the windows Nethergate beta reports.

Two pieces of good news in one post! A5 sounds really good, I look forward to it.

[Ephesos]

Ah, good... I was a little concerned when I read the posts about Vahkhos coming back, but couldn't find the corresponding text on the actual page.

 

Can't wait for the release.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
After the incredibly provocative act of trying to kill Empress Prazac, Dorikas has had to flee to a remote and savage area, where he has had time to prepare for those who would hunt him. Even though he is not about to take over or instantly destroy the world or whatever, I think that you will find him an adequate foe. :-)

Unless, of course, you decide to join him.

- Jeff Vogel

Ah, if ET evers comes back from being banned, I can see him going on for pages about taking over the Darkside Loyalists and leading them to victory.

This will be a change for Avernum/Exile series in getting to choose which side you want to be on in the end. I look forward to being able to fight a foe that isn't scripted as unkillable.

[Fort]

This update sounds great, and the screenshots reveal enough intriguing, new features to keep me drooling for more.

 

And while I am sometimes disappointed that Avernum and Geneforge share very similar graphics, I still love that the two series can co-evolve, allowing each new game to be a spectacular mixture of everything that came before it -- like the quick spell and item slots.

[Thralni]

Since I didn't play Avernum 4 to the end, only a small portion of the demo, I don't know who this Dorikas guy is. However, I'm rather pleased it's not a vampire, as I still hate undead.

[Zummi]

Gosh..I was waiting for an A5 update..

 

Battle Disciplines? Like "Warrior" skills?

It's good..just hopin' that there would be no

"Revenge" type skill..you know..the "Deal damage equal to lost HP"..

 

It'd be cool to have more advance counter attacks..not just the normal "Riposte"..

 

Quick Question: Is there an unscripted special encounter? Just curious..=)

[Synergy]

And now we know why Dorikas was unkillable in A4.

 

-S-

[Dintiradan]

By Syn:

Quote:

And now we know why Dorikas was unkillable in A4.

Well, it was fairly obvious that he would return sometime in the future. Most villains who shout the desire for revenge as they jump off-stage do.

 

EDIT: Figures I'd get second page. Quote for context.

 

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Tinsel is really snake mirrors.

- Steven Wright

[Leftover Sauerkraut]

Fatigue? Interesting that the first screenshot had it and the others didn't. Perhaps it limits what you can do in your "battle disciplines".

 

Edit: Stupid typo. I blame Ocean's Thirteen!

[Randomizer]

Regarding fatigue, there are two versions that I can think of from gaming. Advanced dungeons and dragons had it as temporary damage that heals faster than normal damage. Hackmaster had it as exhaustion from continuous combat where you start losing combat abilities as the fight drags out past a certain point based on endurance.

 

I think it will be related to combat and the battle disciplines where it will be somewhat like spell energy.

[Micawber]

I seem to remember Morrowind also had a fatigue system, where you got tired from fighting and had to go rest up (separate from health).

[Slawbug]

Dungeon Master was the first game I know of to use some kind of fatigue stat (it used stamina). Wizardry 6 and up used it as well.

 

I am skeptical Jeff would put this in Avernum 5, though, as it would significantly change the logistics of combat. (Well, either that or it would be the kind of meaningless fluff Jeff always crusades against.) My guess would be that it's somehow parallel to spell points, but is used for battle disciplines, and perhaps has different rules for replenishment over time. (Essence and spell energy, anyone?)

[Nioca]

Perhaps it works like temporary encumbrance. A slight penalty to AP and hit chance, until you get rid of it.

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Haakai-Tender Valcrist:
Quick Question: Is there an unscripted special encounter? Just curious..=)

All special encounters have to be scripted. Do you mean random encounters? Jeff has already said that he'll have some monsters return after you've killed them, as I recall.

—Alorael, who likes how the introduction picture evokes the splash screens of E3 and A3. He also likes the idea of getting stuck on a lift, because everyone who has ever been stuck in an elevator knows that the only thing that could make it work is getting shot at.

[Spidweb]

"Alorael, who likes how the introduction picture evokes the splash screens of E3 and A3."

 

Indeed. This is what I like to call Shameless Fan Service.

 

About fatigue. This is where that is at now. Fatigue is the limiter of battle disciplines. Each discipline makes you fatigued for a certain number of turns. As long as you're fatigued, you can't use a discipline.

 

Some items and skills will reduce fatigue. Some enemies and special encounters may muck about with your fatigue in amusing ways.

 

Enemy warriors have battle disciplines and fatigue too. Watch out for damage spikes!

 

It's a new system. All of this is subject to change.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[*i]

Will magic cause fatigue as well? The partial reason magic was so overpowered in GF 4 compared to weapons skills was that the player could consistently do lots of damage to lots of creatures over and over again.

[Spidweb]

"Will magic cause fatigue as well? The partial reason magic was so overpowered in GF 4 compared to weapons skills was that the player could consistently do lots of damage to lots of creatures over and over again."

 

Yes. Magic will drain these things called "spell points." When you run out of them, you are "magically fatigued", and can't cast any more. :-)

 

One thing about battle disciplines is that not only do they help archers, but some of them can also be highly beneficial to spell casters. I'm not saying that they'll be worth pumping the points into weapons skills to get them, but, if your caster did have them, it'd be hawt.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Student of Trinity]

What I think *i was getting at is that it might be worth considering making spell points and fatigue the same stat, which would be drained by casting spells and exercising battle disciplines alike. For in-game rationale, you could simply drop the mumbo-jumbo about spell energy, and say that spellcasting causes fatigue, which seems reasonable.

 

For game play, the good part would be having a somewhat simpler system, with only one fatigue stat. It might also be nice to make casters and fighters more explicitly balanced in their power.

 

The obvious problem is deciding what stats would raise fatigue: intelligence, as for spell points; or strength or endurance or whatever, which is more appropriate for warriors? This is quite likely a deal breaker for this idea.

 

But perhaps not. Since fighters are still going to be physically able to do normal attack and defense forever, the fatigue that limits advanced battle disciplines might be more mental than anything else. So you could let intelligence contribute to fatigue, just as now with spell points. This would force warriors who want to add the new moves to their repertoires to invest some points in intelligence, and thus distinguish them from vanilla grunts.

 

Or you could argue that the fatigue that limits spellcasting is partly physical, and let endurance or strength boost fatigue as well. If battle disciplines took considerably less fatigue than spellcasting, and intelligence raised fatigue much more than strength and endurance did, then you'd still have spellcasters pumping intelligence and fighters pumping the physical stats. But it would leave the option for a fighter who really wanted to use lots of battle disciplines to throw a few more points than normal into intelligence. And it might make a 'battle mage' character a little more viable, which could be cool.

 

It's quite likely too hard to balance. But worth a thought.

[La paix]

I think I would like it if there was ever something like fatigue that forced you to rest. So that for once, you would need to buy rooms in the inn or have food. Or something that would require you to eat.

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy...

[Zummi]

So, um..if Fatigue is for Warriors..and Spell Points are for Mages..is there Energy for Rogues?

 

It may be too late to say this but..how about an in-game minigame..you know, like in BoF4..you sometimes need to finish a certain minigame to continue on..minigames also has rewards..be it stat bonus or material rewards..

 

"Wack the Goblin!"

[Kelandon]

I don't really miss food. My only real experience with it was BoE, and it didn't add a lot to the gameplay.

 

I also don't know about this idea of combining magical and physical fatigue into one things. It seems like fatigue is supposed to work very differently from spell points, so the two aren't meant to be mixed.

 

There has never really been a "rogue" character in Avernum. Maybe in GF, if you count Leadership-and-Mechanics-based characters, but not in Avernum. Basically, there are melee fighters, missile fighters, priests, and mages (usually multi-classed in some way, so a melee fighter may have some missile skills).

 

Which leads to the obvious question: will battle disciplines also influence missile attacks?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Student of Trinity:

 

Quote:

What I think *i was getting at is that it might be worth considering making spell points and fatigue the same stat, which would be drained by casting spells and exercising battle disciplines alike. For in-game rationale, you could simply drop the mumbo-jumbo about spell energy, and say that spellcasting causes fatigue, which seems reasonable.

 

For game play, the good part would be having a somewhat simpler system, with only one fatigue stat. It might also be nice to make casters and fighters more explicitly balanced in their power.

If it's just a matter of preventing overpowered magic users from blasting everything repeatedly, what about reducing the amount of spell points that casters get so that they are likely to run low in major battles? Then make it really easy to regain those spell points outside of combat (first aid, items, wandering around) so that the party doesn't have to retreat to town to recover very often.

 

Dikiyoba might as well suggest an option to turn off the tutorial in the first few sections of the game while Dikiyoba is posting here. Not any of the plot-related stuff, just the game mechanic-related stuff. It's fairly tedious to learn how to equip a dagger for the dozenth time.

[Fort]

I think spell fatigue would be a worthwhile addition to the game, and there are a few different implementations I can think of.

 

1) A magic fatigue could be added. More powerful spells would drain more fatigue. The capacity for fatigue would increase with stats and levels. It would function almost like spell energy in GF.

 

2) Only powerful spells would drain fatigue like the combat abilities.

 

3) Add a maximum number of spell points that a caster can use during a turn. If he has been out of combat for a while, he starts with an additional bonus reservoir, and if he doesn't use his entire quota for a turn, some of it would rollover to the next one.

[Student of Trinity]

I really just like the idea of having a simpler system if possible. Having two major status bars, each of which is ignored by half of all characters, seems inelegant to me. And since they're both doing the same basic job, of limiting how many big zaps people can pull off, why not combine them?

 

The hope is that you could still tweak the effects on different classes by monkeying with the fatigue costs of spells versus battle disciplines, and adjusting the effects on fatigue totals and recovery rates of the various primary statistics. All without allowing any game-breaking battle-mages.

 

Ah, it's probably too much trouble, really.

[*i]

I agree with SoT, combining the two seem to be a way to go. Things like strength and dexterity could affect the power of the battle disciplines, and intelligence could affect the power of the magical ones. Endurance is where fatigue could be handled.

 

Perhaps endurance could be used to set how much fatigue the PC can handle before becoming unable to use more of the given ability. For instance, an endurance of 6, would mean that the PC has 6 points of "fatigue" to spend. A skill costing 4, points could be cast leaving the PC with 2 points. The PC could not use that skill again until the PC has 4 fatigue points. Fatigue recovery could be handled by endurance itself or some other skill.

 

Weak spells, like Bolt of Fire or a standard attack or archery, could give a fatigue of 1, which is automatically recovered the next turn. Of course, a hasted PC could fall victim to accumulated fatigue. Strong spells, like Divine Retribution, could have a high fatigue cost meaning repeated castings of the thing become impossible.

[Slawbug]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
"Will magic cause fatigue as well? The partial reason magic was so overpowered in GF 4 compared to weapons skills was that the player could consistently do lots of damage to lots of creatures over and over again."

Yes. Magic will drain these things called "spell points." When you run out of them, you are "magically fatigued", and can't cast any more. :-)
- Jeff Vogel

The problem with this is that spell points don't actually pace casters in Avernum. Energy potions are easy to come by, and don't even take a whole action to quaff. If the more useful spells used fatigue in addition to SP, and so could only be cast every so often, it would balance things a lot.

[Spidweb]

"Which leads to the obvious question: will battle disciplines also influence missile attacks?"

 

Heck yeah. I won't pass up on a chance to make missile weapons more viable.

 

As for adding fatigue or such to magic, no. I am not looking for ways to enable the player to do less. And remember, outside of the jaded auld gamers on these boards, players in general aren't finding anything on Avernum 4 or Geneforge 4 overpowered.

 

If you do, that is why Avernum 5 will also have much tougher Hard and Torment difficulty settings.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[SevenMass]

When A5 comes out, I'll buy it, set difficulty to torment, and play my first game like that!

[Randomizer]

Quote:

If you do, that is why Avernum 5 will also have much tougher Hard and Torment difficulty settings.

- Jeff Vogel

Please really make it a challenge. Nethergate: Resurrection was getting there during beta testing.

The advantage spellcasters have over fighters is the ease of recharging with energy potions. Geneforge 4 had the big change that essence pods also recharged spell energy. This made it possible for spellcasters to keep going with the draining high powered spells that normally they could only cast a rarely.

Jeff mentioned items that would allow fighters to reduce fatigue effects so this would mean that later in the game you could keep attacking with the better battle disciplines.

[Slawbug]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
I am not looking for ways to enable the player to do less.

Sometimes, less is more. To use an extreme example: if there were an ability that let you destroy every enemy instantly and you could use it every turn, that would quickly take the fun out of the game.

[Randomizer]

There is an ability, it the cheat code to kill everything. It doesn't seem to affect the enjoyment of some people. They're the ones that will enjoy using the character editor to make themselves gods at the start.

[Fort]

But we are not talking about the character editor or cheating. We are talking about the aspects of the game that could be exploited by players in the course of normal, intelligent play.

 

EDIT: From Jeff's quick description of the fatigue system, it appears as if each battle discipline or ability immediately fatigues you; that is, there is no endurance counter that must be gradually depleted before the fatigue effect sets in. For example, in this screenshot , I take it that Aldous cannot use any abilities for 4 turns because he used Well-Aimed Blow this turn.