Avernum V ideas

[Green Apple]

Quote:

Originally written by Micro Phage:
Yet another thought about Options menu in A5:

How about brightness/contrast adjustability that effects game only.

Can brightness, "light level", whatever, be adjustable in options menu in A5 ?

I agree that this would be helpful, although I haven't had a problem with lighting myself...

I was wondering if anyone had talked about adding another race of character? It would be more logical that all of the different races encountered could become adventurers, not just humans, sliths, and nephils. Having said this, I have an official disclaimer: I don't believe this needs to be done in any way, shape or form, but it is an interesting thought...

[*i]

Quote:

I was wondering if anyone had talked about adding another race of character?

Yes, many times.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Micro Phage:

 

Quote:

Can brightness, "light level", whatever, be adjustable in options menu in A5?

Given the number of people who have complained about how difficult it is to see things, even with their monitors turned all the way up, I think that would be a very good idea.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Randomizer]

You don't need to adjust the light level if you pick better colors for the backround versus items. Black and dark colors don't contrast enough with bodies and a few other items.

 

In Geneforge 3 I originally missed an item because the 3D wall blocked my view and I only found it by accident when the mouse cursor lit it up. This happens in A4 near the Tower of the Magi where the Tinker's gloves are on a body in an arachnea lair.

[-=microphage=-]

Quote:

Quoting Randomizer:
You don't need to adjust the light level if you pick better colors for the backround versus items. Black and dark colors don't contrast enough with bodies and a few other items.

How can you do this from within A4, (or G3 for that matter) without manually adjusting your monitor?

Or were you suggesting that as a new feature in A5 Options? Background colors customizing?

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Micro Phage:
How can you do this from within A4, (or G3 for that matter) without manually adjusting your monitor?

Or were you suggesting that as a new feature in A5 Options? Background colors customizing?

I believe Randomizer meant that perhaps Jeff will pick better, more contrasting colors for backgrounds when he makes A5. The problem isn't something that we could solve from this end without some form of hack.

[Igor]

I've probably said this before, but I want potion making back, and also made more useful. For example, in addition to the stock healing/blessing/curing/whatever potions, you should be able to make poisons and acids to apply to your weapons, or exploding potions useable as weapons.

[Alorael at Large]

Poison can be concocted by alchemy in Exile, but I don't think anyone uses alchemy to make poison.

 

—Alorael, whose sole use of poison comes from the Major Blessing spell, and if he could save a couple of spell points by omitting the poison he'd do so without a second thought.

[*i]

Now if poison would actually be useful...that would be different. Combat would need to be long enough for it to take effect. Also, if it would temporarily weaken stats, that would be help a lot.

[Vaecrius]

Hi, everyone, first post... the following's been bugging me for a while and this thread seemed to be the perfect place to put it. So... "one" thing I'd like to see in the next Avernum game, which has been brewing in the back of my mind for the past couple days since I first gave it any thought...

 

More "traditional Avernite" Stone Age weaponry.

 

It seems really weird to me that, for instance, the sliths who only live underground would be good with full-length polearms - where does the wood for the shafts come from? And why make a stone short sword (a real-life version of which might snap if you gripped it too tightly) if an axe head secured to a sturdy femur would most likely do far more damage without losing its (admittedly dull) edge?

 

So, as a rough list of the things that would be totally awesome...

 

Knives: I'd like to see these get a little more prominence. A culture that emphasizes the importance of the simple, all-purpose knife - be it stone, bronze, or steel - could really help give Avernum the "resourceful frontier folk" feel.

Whips: short, long, barbed, studded with little obsidian bits, made from the business end of an ooze crawler, it's all good. Probably paired with an off-hand knife, the whip both defending and making openings for the knife to strike. I think this kind of fighting would work very nicely for the nephilim.

Clubs/hammers/maces/axes: Head and femur mentioned above. Possibly throwable.

Flails: I'm imagining three main components: a 2' handle of bone or wood, a 1' strap of braided leather, and a knobby tin or copper ball hollowed out and filled with lead. Bronze or steel rings might fit the pieces together on more expensive models.

Nunchaku: Pretty much the same as flails.

Slings: I'm a bit surprised these disappeared after Nethergate or so, since they seemed to be the perfect cheap Iron Age underdog's equalizer. There are enough rivers in the caves to provide the stones.

Bolas: Leather straps and rocks. Could be string, too, but I'm still assuming some limited plant fibers at the time they'd become popular.

Staffs: Bone or bronze nine-section whip. Possibly secured with spider silk.

Bows: The image in my head is perhaps best described by the neologism, "mongolpunk". A twisted, ponderous thing of bone and sinew made from the parts of a who-knows-what, far stronger than the Empire's wood contraptions, usually firiing tragically misshapen bone-shafted arrows. Properly-shaped (and longer!) wood arrows would be a rare and deadly treat. Of course, this would really change the "feel" of bows to be more like something associated with sliths than nephilim...

Mini-spears: The sliths are much taller than any of the races except the Vahnatai, so they've still got a reach advantage even if they don't have super-long polearms. Two to three feet plus a sturdy leather shield with barbs to catch the opponent's weapon should be enough to allow for a thrust-based fencing style not dissimilar to the kind taught by Fabris (and the tails would help them lean even further forward than a human can!)

Darts: Say, weren't these in the Exile games? Sorta like a micro-javelin, but a bit easier to carry in large numbers. And easier to fit onto an atlatl. Advantage over bow and arrow? Portability, I suppose - and less reliance on heavy pulling. EDIT: But then again, considering how long these things actually are, they could still get pretty expensive...

 

On a side note, I'd really like to see those neat single-edged falcata-like weapons pictured in places like the Avernum 1 splash pic ingame.

 

EDIT: And yeah, poisoning weapons (and botching) was pretty fun in Exile, if not quite the most practical thing in the world... would hate to put acid on any weapon, though.

[Kelandon]

This all sounds interesting, but... why would anyone care? I mean, weapons in Avernum at this point are just damage rolls — the kind of weapon only matters for skill purposes. Introducing many more kinds of weapons seems sort of silly unless they introduce new tactical complexity to the game, and I'm not sure how these weapons would do that.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb, by the way!

[Ephesos]

Well, as long as combat is being revamped in the series, I don't see why some of these wouldn't be half-plausible.

 

Really, what I'd like to see more than any of that is to give some advantage back to human PCs. There's nothing to balance them against the clearly superior nephils and sliths. I mean, race-specific weapons/abilities, trait balancing, whatever it takes.

[Vaecrius]

Kelandon: Thanks for the welcome. As for why anyone would care... immersion, suspension of disbelief, another little extra bit that keeps the player engrossed in a surprisingly detailed world. Same reason why the world is filled with pickupable pieces of trash and household objects that you never actually use. Or quest-giving NPCs that reveal very human motivations in their dialog, rather than just "bring X to Y after killing Z" and you never deal with them again.

 

As for mechanical effects... I never really gave it much thought when I wrote that list. ^^; I suppose the bola would be more valuable for slowing down a target rather than hurting them directly, and shields might be more common as more weapons are one-handed.

 

Ephesos: I personally like the balance as it is now. Most of my characters (almost all of whom are human) have XP penalties ranging from 20-40 anyway thanks to the traits. It's a bit like the choice between "X class" and "Custom" - you can get a bonus you know has been tested to work, or pick something more basic that you can experiment with. Of course, it could just be that I don't really know how to use the non-human advantages correctly...

[Alorael at Large]

The problem is that sliths get a few nice benefits and nephils get absurdly useful benefits. Both outweigh the modest penalty, especially because the experience and leveling system reward experience penalties and disproportionately punishes disadvantages that should increase experience.

 

—Alorael, who also wishes Avernum's primitive and frontier-like atmosphere had been played up, especially on the literal frontiers. Now it's too late, though. Normalized trade (presumably) with the Empire and relatively free flow of good and people means that nobody should be stuck with crude goods.

[*i]

Quote:

This all sounds interesting, but... why would anyone care? I mean, weapons in Avernum at this point are just damage rolls — the kind of weapon only matters for skill purposes. Introducing many more kinds of weapons seems sort of silly unless they introduce new tactical complexity to the game, and I'm not sure how these weapons would do that.

I agree with this. An solution could be if different attacks use different amount of AP or have a varying percentage of multi-attacks. Things like knives would be useful if they allowed more speed and had a chance of doing double attacks based on dexterity. This would make it a valuable weapon for a thief like character.

I agree about the need to rebalance races. One way would be to give Nephil and Sliths penalties rather than just an XP one.

[-=microphage=-]

I've noticed that trying to use ANY offense spells in A4 on a friendly or neutral NPC doesn't work and puts you in combat mode and even if you selected spell first then "attack" it will use whatever weapon is in hand and not the spell, killing the NPC and make anyone in sight hostile (if not the whole town).

 

Also, you can't use any heal type spells on anything hostile. Such as heal or unshackle mind to try and revive a dazed hostile, or even heal a foe to make the battle last longer.

 

What about the ability to use Mage/Priest spells on friendly/neutral characters without going in to combat/attack mode? Maybe even some more spells to do just that?

 

It would be kind of cool to Daze or temporarily Blind a character if you want to do something in front of them without them going hostile and not resorting to cheat codes?

 

Another thing possible would be able to use healing spells on sick, injured NPC's and actually have them recover? A4 allows you to "heal your party and near by friendly characters" but if you are in a slum or refugee camp text says they were healed but they really aren't. They don't leave and move on.

 

Then you could run into them later and have an instant ally who "owed you one" or something. This does happen to a degree in A4 but is usually quest based. (freed prisoners, etc.) The poor guy Kasas in Fort Saffron is still sick after you complete the quest to heal/cure him with 3 Elixirs. He's still in the same place sick later in the game. (Man, eternal nausea and diarrhea. Bummer!)

[Zummi]

hmmm..

maybe a vahnatai race..

it would be cool..

if those freaks..

would reallllllyyyyy...

help you out this tym..

nd a new character class..

dn please..

no necromancers..

they belong to..

diablo..

some people like..

Avernum for what is it..

bringing back the..

character editor..

nd having new spells..

i mean not just the..

mage nd priest spells..

 

nd bringing back..

simalcrum..

now that is a RIOT!!!

 

PS:this is not a poem

i lyk typing this way

[*i]

Please write in complete sentences. Ellipses use three periods, by the way...

 

Jeff has already said the Vahnatai will never be a playable race. Also, it is highly unlikely another playable race will be implemented in Avernum. In all seriousness, I doubt it would add that much anyway other than a new, neat option.

[Alorael at Large]

Avernum doesn't have character classes, so a new one would be quite a trick.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't want them, either, thank you very much. Geneforge is already more classy than he likes.

[Vaecrius]

Quote:

Originally written by Zombie Fillet Mignon:
Avernum doesn't have character classes, so a new one would be quite a trick.

- I'm pretty sure he meant those pre-gen "classes" that you can use if you don't want to go full custom on everyone.

That said, I don't think a necromancer would be all that playable anyway. I could imagine the whole summon/create undead thing leading to some Geneforge-like play, but it would seriously hurt the main game of building up your adventurers that the Avernum games are so much about. Other combat bonuses might apply too, but do you really want an adventurer who only really shines when fighting one specific kind of enemy? I suppose such a character could also talk to the dead, but that would lead to having to create a whole new set of dialogue and scripts that a player could easily miss every time (or force the player to pick up otherwise useless necromancy skills).

But an entire game (or BoA adventure?) about necromancy... now that would make it worth it!

Alorael: Don't mind me asking but it seems like you have a different name every other post... what's up with that?

[Mister Fox]

The Avernum necromancers are always wimpy nerds living in caves out in the middle of nowhere, I think graverobber would be a better class. They'd be fast from running away from guards when caught, self-trained in stealthy skills to avoid being caught, and and skilled in pole weapons from all of the shovel handling. Also, it fits in with the other classes in that there is always some criminal background involved. Necromancers seem to be thought of as a bit too criminal for Avernum (you always get sent to kill them) and would probably be sent to the Abyss.

[Alorael at Large]

I change my publically displayed name daily and have done so for two years. It started as a protest of the fact that I reached 10,000 posts without a custom title. Now it just matches my stylish signature.

 

—Alorael, who is a walking, talking gimmick and likes it that way. Others disagree, as is their right. He can editorialize about it in his signature better than they can, though!

[Dintiradan]

The Necromancer wouldn't work for role-playing purposes either. Think about it: would you, as a quest-giver (a.k.a. Bob), give a heroic quest to a creepy guy whose illegal and inherently evil compatriots continually drop pieces of their putrid remains on your waiting room carpet? I didn't think so. The only thing that would work worse than the Necromancer would be some sort of demon summoner.

 

By Alorael:

Quote:

Alorael, who is a walking, talking gimmick and likes it that way.

Warning: Gimmick conflict.

 

--------------------

IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

I will provide funding and research to develop tactical and strategic weapons covering a full range of needs so my choices are not limited to "hand to hand combat with swords" and "blow up the planet".

[Vaecrius]

Mister Fox: Yeah, that's one of the odd things I've found about necromancers in Avernum. I would've thought it was something exile-worthy, as long as you weren't actually killing people for the bodies, unless the culture of the Empire had some issues about the dead... which is odd given you never have the option as adventurers to give the bodies you find (and loot) anything like a dignified burial.

 

Alorael: I see.

 

Dintiradan: I could imagine Bob doing such a thing if he were desperate or the adventurers had some other mitigating factor about them (e.g., if the Big Bad is a fellow necromancer, knowing the enemy better than anyon else available)... but I suspect that would play out much, much better on an Avernum tabletop game. (Speaking of which... has anyone tried such a thing?)

 

One thing I'm reminded of that I'd really like to see in a future Avernum game: the dissolution of the eight-legged invertebrate. It would be awesome if you could have a formation and the PCs would sorta roughly stick to it, occasionally moving out of it when it makes sense (e.g., one PC stepping towards another to transfer an item between them). Might make certain states like confusion and encumbrance be relevant outside of combat as well...

[Zummi]

*i sorry about typing that way..

 

hmm..i wish the "hi" and "hey" the spiders say when u talk to them was returned..you know, the one in exile two..mehn i almost drop down dead while playing it..then the friendly talking spiders came..it saved my lyf..LOL..i agree with the eternal diarhea thing..if u help someone who says can be helped to relieve his/her sickness..but after playing the game for the nTH hour..is still the same..would really be disappointing..

[Vaecrius]

Speaking of which... I'm going to get burned for this... but...

 

GIFTS PC

 

::ducks and covers::

[Green Apple]

Quote:

Originally written by Vaecrius:
Speaking of which... I'm going to get burned for this... but...

GIFTS PC

::ducks and covers::

*bursts into laughter* As a type equal to the slith, nephil, and human, that would be very odd...I don't know haw a spider would wear armor, silly! (Or carry a poleaxe for that matter...) It could possibly cast spells like the areana, but one spider has been trying for several games. And how would people react to a giant, talking arachnid asking to go slay the nasty shade/giant/rat attacking their city? Personally, the idea would be hilarious, but wouldn't work well in gameplay. You can always add a GIFTS to the party in BoA if you really want to. FYI:(I'm not trying to be mean at all, just laughing at the different possibilities. If A5 does have a GIFTS PC, very slim being the chance,I'll be laughing for days and make an all-spider party. Just because.)

[Zummi]

u cud just say LOL which means "laughing out loud".but still the same..(BURST INTO LAUGHTER)..a full spider party..now thats something!!and they all have the skill "spin web"..rrryyyttt..but 4 d sake of it..spin web slows down the enemy..very useful..LOL

[Green Apple]

I appreciate your concern, Valcrist, but I tend to use whole words since I'm not used to boards/forums/posting. LOL is one of a few terms I do know.

Quote:

Originally written by Micro Phage:

[QB]I've noticed that trying to use ANY offense spells in A4 on a friendly or neutral NPC doesn't work and puts you in combat mode and even if you selected spell first then "attack" it will use whatever weapon is in hand and not the spell, killing the NPC and make anyone in sight hostile (if not the whole town).

[QB]

I've been playing A4 a lot lately, and this keeps on happening to me in combat mode. I've died because my mage fired an arrow instead of casting bolt of fire on a cave slime. I'd try to click an the slime and end up clicking on my other characters instead. So..I know it's been mentioned in this thread, but I really miss the targeting system.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

Note to new posters: Do not take Valcrist's advice. There are people from all over the world here, many of whom do not understand proper English very well, let alone "lol zomg rofl u r 1337"-type Internet-speak. Please be considerate and take a few extra seconds to type legibly.

 

Please, no GIFTS PCs! GIFTR PCs are okay though.

[Zeviz]

A GIFTS PC would be too annoying and out of character, but A GIFTS joinable NPC could be an amusing Easter Egg. It would probably act like a Xian Skull, constantly bothering you with "You are cute" dialogues. It might also make "You are cute." a dialogue option when talking to any NPC, but that would probably be too much work for Jeff for a single joke.

[Grain of Salt]

To go by A3 where they fight the roaches, GIFTS are surprisingly strong.

 

Which may be a downside when you finally decide to kill it and stop the high-pitched, chirpy voice.

[Klintor Tazzankah]

Hi all,

 

I don't know if anyone told that in this topic, but here it goes:

 

I'll love if in Avernum 5 I can play with a Vahnathai in my party.

 

Like Nephils and us, the Sliths, the vahnathai has discounts in some atributes and are good in others, or XP penalties, wherever.

 

A new tunnel and then the pylon transport can link Olgai to Upper Avernum - to explain the goods Vahnathais walking among the "usual" population.

 

Thus, I'd like to go in Waterfall Warrens again and the old ruins of the bad slith village (A2), in deeper caves.

 

And don't be bad if some missions or a plot's part

is ambiented in the surface, and for it, is need to leave the party's vahnathai(s) in some city, or especific room - cause de sun burns their skins, or blind their eyes, wherever.

 

Then, the quest only can be done with 3 members, or without your mage etc, some hard task, adding a little tricky path, with a very good final prize on it.

 

So, thatsss my ideasss.

 

Hugzzz to all,

 

Klintor, rebel slith.

[Micawber]

Question: why do we not have an FAQ on these boards? We do have walkthroughs, but that's not quite the same thing.

[Alorael at Large]

There are some FAQs in walkthroughs. If you mean board-oriented FAQs, like "Will there be vahnatai NPCs?" (Jeff says no), you can go ahead and write one but nobody would read it.

 

—Alorael, who is quite sure that nobody even reads the last page or two of the topic they're posting in.

[Vaecrius]

Or a frequently rejected suggestions thread/post/page... I just read the entire discussion on GIFTS PCs in the other Av5 thread. o_O

 

On that note... I'd really like to see some very, very different-looking mouse cursors for when a click would move, make a melee attack, shoot a ranged weapon, or cast a spell.

[Zummi]

yup..bringing back the target system on spells will be the cherry on top of my ice cream sundae..w

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Valcrist:
yup..bringing back the target system on spells will be the cherry on top of my ice cream sundae..w

(shudder)

I want to see the GIFTR PCs. And you know what, I could definitely get behind an Avernum game with no vahnatai at all. Not a single appearance. How about it?

[Milla]

What would I like to see in A5?

 

Ooh I know! The ability to play singleton parties again, without level progression stagmenting midway through the game.

[ginger8445]

I have an idea that if someone is a "Guilty one" or something the different difficulty setting should change that and make it someone else or something else. EX in A3 the creator of the plauges of monstrs was (duh) the vahntani. But in A5 if there is a creator of something or something along those lines the person or group should change based on the difficulty setting.

[The Loquacious Lord Grimm]

Jeff has already made it quite clear that he is not making any Vahnatai PCs.

 

And changing the plot depending on difficulty levels, though novel as it sounds, also sounds ridiculously overly complex to program.

 

You know wha I'd like to see in Avernum 5?

Something I didn't expect!

 

--------------------

The Silent Assassin is running around, doing steam locomtive impressions.

Which is quite odd looking, him being silent and all...

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by ginger8445:
in A5 if there is a creator of something or something along those lines the person or group should change based on the difficulty setting.

But that would imply a plot incredibly similar to A3. We don't need another A3, we already have one.

I like Lenar's idea.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Ooh I know! The ability to play singleton parties again, without level progression stagmenting midway through the game.

I've played a singleton in torment through A4 and to get around level progression stagnation you need to do all those irritating little quests. Also skipping around the Great Cave to go after higher level encounters helps to raise your character at the risk of later stagnation.

Check some of the old threads and you will see that other people have run singletons even with two disadvantages.

[Vaecrius]

After a couple fights requiring about a dozen reloads each I'm going to second other posters' desire for the older targeting system... too many of those reloads happened after either my tank or my spellcaster rushed into the enemy/let an enemy live long enough to wipe out the party because I didn't notice I had the wrong weapon as "default".

[Igor]

Or if you clicked the square next to the enemy instead of on the enemy. I want the classic Avernum targeting.

[Randomizer]

I like the old targeting system since you could do it from the keyboard. Some times it didn't work with elevations and adjacent target.

[Vaecrius]

Quote:

Originally written by Mu:
Or if you clicked the square next to the enemy instead of on the enemy. I want the classic Avernum targeting.

- That's the funny thing in my case... I can see exactly how that happens, and agree that it's a reasonable mistake, yet oddly enough it's the one targeting problem I've never had. XD

Switching between A4 and BoA I've also noticed one thing: with the old targeting system, the letter above a baddie's head helps reveal them if they're right behind a wall - a point clearly visible from the PCs' position but hidden from the player.

[Venomousblade]

Quote:

Originally written by The Almighty Do-er of Stuff:
Note to new posters: Do not take Valcrist's advice. There are people from all over the world here, many of whom do not understand proper English very well, let alone "lol zomg rofl u r 1337"-type Internet-speak. Please be considerate and take a few extra seconds to type legibly.

Please, no GIFTS PCs! GIFTR PCs are okay though.

Took a while to figure out what GIFTS were. Now it's GIFTR, is that Roaches? Whoa.
My best idea for A5 is get it done and released ASAP - As Soon As Possible!

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Venomousblade:
My best idea for A5 is get it done and released ASAP - As Soon As Possible!

Ack! NOOOOOOO!!!!!

The last thing we need is a rushed game, particularly when Jeff is still smoothing out the transition to the Geneforge-y engine.

[BrTarolg]

tbh, i prefer the avernum engine.

 

well ok - the geneforge graphics and whatnot im not too worried about.

 

graphics never REALLY bothered me -

 

however things like clicking on the ground to move, no longer being able to type "m-a-a" and being able to do multiple targeting with lightning is slightly stranger.

 

i would like more powerful summons in the next game, and a return of the "avernum feel" - the new graphics are alright really. ive grown to be ok with them.