a4 is the best game yet

[Grain of Salt]

I never played much of Baldur's Gate at all, but the parts I did play I found immensely enjoyable. Why? The game world responds to your actions. Murder random elves for their treasure and the police-mages track you down. They actually chase you. Individual party members abandon you, people respond when you kill their cows, etc. It was a very immersive experience.

 

EDIT: Typo.

[Bomber]

This game sounds cool where do i download it?

 

EDIT: Baldur's Gate not A4.

[Alorael at Large]

Ditto what Kel said. I really don't like the D&D memorize, cast, and rememorize magic system, and I usually get stuck and bored somewhere in the middle of Baldur's Gate I and II, say I'll come back later, and then do so by restarting entirely. I have yet to finish either.

 

Bomber, Baldur's Gate II is not downloadable. There might be a demo somewhere, but you'll definitely have to purchase it. All the usual suspects (Google, Amazon, etc.) apply.

 

—Alorael, who maybe ought to give BG2 another whirl.

[Bomber]

Oh well...........

[Masked Man of Inscrutability]

I, too, absolutely hate the D&D spell system. I prefer games like Geneforge or Avernum where the number of spells is more limited but they're all useful, and the spell's power depends on the skill of the caster.

 

That said, I found Baldur's Gate II and the expansion pack to be excellent CRPGs. I found the first Baldur's Gate to be pretty good. I found Icewind Dale to be pretty dull. I never tried Planescape because it never made it to the Mac side of things.

 

And now, to bring this back to the topic at hand, I think Avernum IV is the most technically sophisticated game Jeff has ever produced, and the combat system is much more fun than any previous Avernum. I prefer A4's combat system to BG's combat system.

 

Z

[Swimmin' Salmon]

For the record - I'm still waiting for Jeff to turn off that damn spycam. It's pure hell using the computer while sheathed in tin foil, and this fake nose and moustache tickles.

[Bomber]

What spycam???

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Bomber:
What spycam???

He's kidding. I think I missed the context, but he's kidding.

EDIT: Ah, right. I remember that bit now...

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:

Quote:

Originally written by Bomber:
What spycam???

He's kidding. I think I missed the context, but he's kidding.

I think Salmon was replying to this:

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
...
And sometimes the customer is a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks that my game is spying on him. (Yes. It happened.)
...

[Steel Angel]

Quote:

While I am a huge fan of Planescape: Torment, I feel that Baldur's Gate II is one of the all-time great RPGs. I felt just as caught up in the story, but there was more game there. Torment was beautifully written, but I spent a lot of time going, "Oh, will you shut up? I want to hit something!"

IMO, Torment had a much more interesting setting and more interesting characters (I almost cried when you had flashbacks of how much pain you put Morte through while he was telling you how he was going to stick with you no matter what), but BG2 had one of the best villains ever. Irenicus didn't just sit in his strongholds and wait for you to come, he taunted you, manipulated you, worked to increase his power while you chased him, had wonderfully condescending dialogue, and just made me think to myself "Okay, this guy just NEEDS to die by my hand." He was a wonderful focal point for the player. Even the huge side quests still indirectly dealt with him since they were a means for the player to amass the funds needed to get to his hideout. Being both too distant to directly strike but still able to taunt and talk to you in the same way a person might do to an annoying dog or child made for an entertainingly infuriating antagonist.

[VCH]

Quote:

Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:
For the record - I'm still waiting for Jeff to turn off that damn spycam. It's pure hell using the computer while sheathed in tin foil, and this fake nose and moustache tickles.

Yes, yes, please Jeff stop spying on all of us. I am sure A4 was built specifically for this purpose. Why else would that traveling merchant need to follow your group. What was his name, Oliver or something?

[Thralni]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Well, yes, I thought the fact that I was being facetious in my expectation that he would be sorry that people liked his game was pretty much implied, but thank you for ruining the joke by explaining it.

Well, it wasn't very funny anyway. But that's a personal matter. Sorry, but for some reason I really felt like saying that.

And I'm not surprised that Jeff gets all these emails, as I would like the game, if the Geneforge graphics weren't in there. Otherwise, why not? Now that its turn-based again (again: as in the GF series wasn't turn-based to the extent of Avernum), the gameplay is once again fun.

The thing that attracted me to Spiderweb games, and thus Avernum, was that it was turn-based. Throw that out, and you lost me. In a time where games are rushed and you constantly have to look around to see if nobody throws a hypersonic-antenna-nuclear-refrigartor-bomb or whatever sort of weapon, its nice to hae the option to drink coffee and eat your sandwich while being attacked by two Haakai and seven demons. If you get my point.

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by Mc 'mini' Thralni:
its nice to hae the option to drink coffee and eat your sandwich while being attacked by two Haakai and seven demons. If you get my point.

It's nicer not to get attacked by two Hakaii and 7 demons to start with, but I have to agree with you. I think that real-time should be kept woth RTS and FPS, not RPG.

And after my original short-comings about Avernum 4, I must say that I bought it after a day or two, so it's not that bad.

- Archmagus Micael

[Joeaverage]

Honestly, playing avernum 4 I think parts of it could do with a real-time system. Sometimes you just do the same trival fights again and again and AGAIN...I'd like to be able to burn through those fast. Not freeze the game completely like it works now.

 

Alternative - half the amount of monsters in dungeons and outdoors, plus clump them up a bit.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Joeaverage:
Alternative - half the amount of monsters in dungeons and outdoors, plus clump them up a bit.

I'm against RTS in Avernum, and I'm against this too. Because the game had to switch to "townlessness", a lot of the game space wound up being empty or filler (or so it seemed after killing the hundredth cave bat). Either of those alternatives would make the vast majority of the game space feel empty.

[rnowalk]

<<"The customer is always right.">>

 

Well, more accurately, the customer THINKS s/he is always right, which of course makes it next to impossible to win an argument.

 

Maybe it should be rewritten as:

 

"The customer thinks s/he is always right, therefore don't bother trying to argue and just go along, with the hope s/he will go away and leave you alone."

[Lilith]

I am not sure what sort of business wants its customers to go away and leave it alone.

[Thralni]

Quote:

Originally written by Archmagus Micael:
I must say that I bought it after a day or two, so it's not that bad.

God, do I hate such statements. I know, I shouldn't take it so serious, but such a statement immediatly signifies that what that particulair person thinks is truth. I hate such arrogance.

[VCH]

CHILL**

[Spidweb]

"I am not sure what sort of business wants its customers to go away and leave it alone."

 

Depends on the customer. I've gotten some really nasty pieces of work over the years. Here's a hot tip for gaming fans on a budget. If you scream obscenities at me on the phone for long enough, I will refund your money to get you to leave me alone.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Grain of Salt]

Oooh. What's your phone number? And do you have caller ID?

[Alorael at Large]

Check the Spiderweb site for the number. Also check Irony Central for warning signs of zealous followers with lead pipes who will extract a pound of flesh from any obnoxious customers.

 

—Alorael, who very much doubts that these ravening hordes will be bothered very much if some blood is extracted in the process as long as it doesn't get on their new clothes.

[VCH]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
If you scream obscenities at me on the phone for long enough, I will refund your money to get you to leave me alone.

- Jeff Vogel

Lol. Why would someone even bother? I'm picturing an upset parent, who probably thinks Avernum is against their religion.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by VCH:
I'm picturing an upset parent, who probably thinks Avernum is against their religion.

*cough* *Ben's parents* *cough*

[Randomizer]

I'm still waiting for Jeff to get around to installing my free spycam so I can ask him whose been playing with my computer when I'm not around.

 

I see Apple has them in the new computers so Jeff just has to download the images when you log on to the boards. Didn't you ever wonder why there are more delays when you open a thread?

[Spidweb]

"I'm picturing an upset parent, who probably thinks Avernum is against their religion."

 

I've gotten that one too. But I brought that on myself, by having a summon demon spell in the Exile games. I removed it when I put Avernum together, just because the spell didn't justify the hassle. (And because what business do the supposedly good characters have summoning demons in the first place?)

 

- Jeff Vogel

[nikki.]

Well, I'm nearing the end-game now, so I'll pass a judgement.

 

Avernum 4 ISN'T Jeff's best game. The combat is better than I'd imagined, and was fun at some points. But it wasn't the be-all-and-end-all some members have said. Archers and ranged enemies were to easily fooled. There was too much hacking and slashing my way through dungeons, and I'm sure I could cast Lightning Spray in my sleep...

 

As far as spells go, there was a good mix. Divine Restoration was nicer than A1-3's, and Arcane Shield was quite useful. In fact, I found myself using the top three mage and priest spells much more than I did previously. Summoning still sucked - and now that we only get one ally for our Mana, there really wasn't any point to it. Spray Acid was nice, but t felt cheap just pummelling golems with it.

 

The story was basically A3-2. Rentar wasn't as bad as I thought she'd be - and I liked how I had to chase her around. The trap that she sets you West of the ToM was nice - it showed she wasn't just lording it up and was active. The shades could've been handled better - destroying them seemed a little bit too easy and unfun. And the Darkside Loyalists should've been taken further - here's hoping Dorikas makes a more prominent appearance in A5.

 

The interface was nice, and not too much of a problem. I didn't like having to quicksave an Avernum game (hitting CTRL+S took too long to do though) at first, and the loss of the outdoors jarred a little, but otherwise it was enjoyable. The honeycomb actually was a maze, and caves actually went up and down in level). The graphics were okay, but at one or two points, I'd think to myself "Eek, a cryoadrayk", and then realise it was actually a drake. The introduction of pylons was okay, but they should've had the same range as me.

 

The main issue for me was that Solberg was chucked into a minor, unimportant role, and that Cheeseball wasn't present.

 

Overall, I'm looking forward to going back to play BoA and Av2, but I do hold out some hope for A5. If plot is worked on, and drakes go back to looking like drakes, then I'll be a very happy chappy.

[Spidweb]

"The main issue for me was that Solberg was chucked into a minor, unimportant role, and that Cheeseball wasn't present."

 

This particular thing was quite intentional. Solberg was basically put on ice for a game. I intend for him to be back in a notable role in Avernum 5.

 

I seriously doubt, by the way, that there will be any spawners in Avernum 5. Heck, at this point, I'm not sure there will be spawners in Geneforge 4.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Dolphin]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
I seriously doubt, by the way, that there will be any spawners in Avernum 5. Heck, at this point, I'm not sure there will be spawners in Geneforge 4.

This is indeed good news.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
This particular thing was quite intentional. Solberg was basically put on ice for a game. I intend for him to be back in a notable role in Avernum 5.

That's one of the more bizarre teasers I've ever heard. Now I am rather more intrigued by A5 than I ought to be.

[Lord Bob]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
This particular thing was quite intentional. Solberg was basically put on ice for a game. I intend for him to be back in a notable role in Avernum 5.

That's one of the more bizarre teasers I've ever heard. Now I am rather more intrigued by A5 than I ought to be.

Avernum 5: The Vahnatai Didn't Do It, It Was Solberg All Along.

Also, 'X' will have a machine gun.

[Grain of Salt]

X is far above such mundane weapons as machine guns.

 

X, my friend, has an anvil gun.

[Lord Bob]

Quote:

Originally written by Little Billy Sue:
X, my friend, has an anvil gun.

That reminds me of one point I've been wanting to make for a while: I swear right now that if Jeff ever releases an Avernum game in which the PCs can learn 'X's anvil spell, I will buy a copy no matter how bad it is.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
"I'm picturing an upset parent, who probably thinks Avernum is against their religion."

I've gotten that one too. ...
- Jeff Vogel

Do you have "most rediculous customer complaints" section somewhere on Ironycentral?

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
...
I seriously doubt, by the way, that there will be any spawners in Avernum 5. Heck, at this point, I'm not sure there will be spawners in Geneforge 4.

Spawners are fine in Geneforge. It's the merging of the two game worlds that is bothering me. Things like Spawners, pylons and drakon graphics have their place. Just not in Avernum.

An idea to make Geneforge spawners more tactically challenging could be to have some fragile spawners that quickly produce many weak creatures, so player would have to go for the spawner itself, while taking some damage from the summons. If there were many kinds of spawners with different toughness and summoning rates, players would have to worry when it makes sence to go for the spawner and when for the creatures it is generating.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

"I'm picturing an upset parent, who probably thinks Avernum is against their religion."

That problem with demons was addressed in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Ed. They changed the names but kept the monsters.

I loved the Knights of the Dinner Table issue that had the Dieties manual withdrawn for having God's stats included. The players had a copy that had the information and were calculating if their characters could beat God. Now that would be a real problem.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Lord Bob:
I swear right now that if Jeff ever releases an Avernum game in which the PCs can learn 'X's anvil spell, I will buy a copy no matter how bad it is.

Seconded.

How will Solberg still be alive in A5? He's already almost impossibly old.

Nonetheless: Yay, no more spawners.

[nikki.]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:

How will Solberg still be alive in A5? He's already almost impossibly old.

Rone managed it. And A4 kinda explains how magi can prolong their life. Which basically means Jeff doesn't have to invent new characters...

Anyway, Solberg! Yay.

[Randomizer]

I'm hoping for Erika's shade to come back with another major quest and a series of challenges on the way to visit her. After all she was the most powerful one down in Avernum.

[Alorael at Large]

Erika's shade is not a terrible idea per se. Erika's shade taking on the same role as Erika is a terrible idea. Dying was her biggest step in character development.

 

—Alorael, who wouldn't mind seeing more of what the (currently very stubby) Tower of Magi folks think about Erika's demise. It means one rogue wizard not running amuck, but it also means one rogue wizard not zealously protecting Avernum. Well, zealously hating everywhere else more than Avernum.

[Student of Trinity]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:

Quote:

"I'm picturing an upset parent, who probably thinks Avernum is against their religion."

That problem with demons was addressed in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Ed. They changed the names but kept the monsters.

I loved the Knights of the Dinner Table issue that had the Dieties manual withdrawn for having God's stats included. The players had a copy that had the information and were calculating if their characters could beat God. Now that would be a real problem.

A game in which there is both a monster called 'God' and a Dungeon Master is simply very poorly theologically informed.

[VCH]

Pff, forget Solberg, I want Cheeseball to return. Cheeseball was the real star.

[Mortimer]

Well I did give A4 a spin today ... honestly it feels to clunky, interface wise and the movement of the screen to follow the characters ... and it hasn't grabbed me quite like the previous titles ... so it probley wont be a purchase I make in the near future.... but each to their own, as they say.

[That Phony Nickel]

(riddled with spoilers)

 

I finished up Avernum 4 last night, and I'm inclined to say I was disappointed with the experience.

It was fun traveling through the length and breadth of the Avernum caves, of course. The new skillsets seem like they're getting about as close to perfection as one should reasonably expect, particularly First Aid and Quick Action (those two made me happiest). I liked the variety in the items, though it didn't feel like there were enough "epic" items involving long and dangerous quests. Think the five artifacts of Avernum 3 - insanely hard to get, but in almost every case (we won't talk about the Ring of Endless Magery), worth the effort. I also enjoyed seeing the evolution of certain towns, and the destruction of Blosk gave me a bit of a shake.

Now, the downsides. The plot, as a whole, was just plain bad. The Darkside Loyalists, for all the hinting and eventual conflict, were poorly defined and not especially threatening as villains (especially since when I ran into Dorikas, I had his health down to 1 three times before he made his timely jump through the portal). The Rentar Ihrno angle was perhaps satisfying, but at the same time, kind of a "heard it all before" scenario. Nobody at all was surprised when we saw her as a Crystal Soul, I'm sure of that. I think some of Rentar's co-conspirators should have been built up stronger and functioned as more than "one conversation and kill" targets. That being said, now that Rentar is out of the picture, I can imagine Avernum 5 will be free to explore many new options.

Next, the mugging. By this, I'm referring to the references to past Avernum games. Sure, I laughed in the Fissure Inn when the girl wasn't quite sure what happened at the Golem Tower, but on the whole, a lot of those comments felt like they should have neon lights blinking around them with the word "Flashback" highlighted. Connectivity is one thing, but I feel it was completely overdone in this game.

The combat system may have been more fun in some ways, but around the end of the game, I got very tired of duking it out with villains that had a 50 percent Riposte rate but couldn't do any damage to me due to my high parry, gymnastics, defense, hardiness, etc. It made combat into a long, drawn-out affair in which every fourth shot drops one-tenth of their health. In other words, boring. Also, the total terror state was overused and too one-sided. A lower level spell to cure individual states of terror would've been much appreciated. Finally, I would've much rather that the Return Life spell be redefined as a function of First Aid. It could bring them back with minimal health and energy, and then you have to handle the rest yourself. Considering most parties have to limit themselves to one priest, as soon as that guy goes down, it's automatically a long walk to the local town/Giant Intelligent Friendly Talking Spider lair.

There were little things that bothered me here and there, too, but I've covered the main points. I think this game could've been much better than it was, and though I enjoyed it well enough, I am hoping for better in the future.

I hope this can be taken constructively.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Quote:

Originally written by VCH:
Pff, forget Solberg, I want Cheeseball to return. Cheeseball was the real star.

Oh God, oh God. Please tell me you're joking.

[Alorael at Large]

I liked Cheeseball and the other familiars. The name left a bit to be desired, but the cat was very catlike in a slightly magical way.

 

—Alorael, who wants to get a mutant magical catnip quest from Cheeseball. Because surely the rogue catnip monsters that fled the ToM during Linda's little faux pas are at large!

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by VCH:

 

Quote:

...I want Cheeseball to return.

Yes, familiars (and children) provide a nice diversion and a bit of humor that Dikiyoba enjoys.

[Najosz Thjsza Kjras]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
You can't win an argument with a customer.

Having to win an argument with a customer is usually a pretty sound sign you're doing something wrong, isn't it?

I've played and thoroughly enjoyed every Exile title, still love Blades of Exile, and thought Nethergate was magnificent. I appreciated the idea behind A1, because E1 was certainly showing its age at that point.

I speak for a significant section of your customers - a section, I have noticed, which is a little old (both in maturity and in terms of better things to do) to send emails to gamemakers - when I say that I don't get Geneforge. The way you manage semi-real-time gameplay is inelegant and ugly, and I played A4 only very briefly before having bile rise in my gorge - not only on the plot, which you clearly phoned in (there are a dozen people, plenty of them moderators at your forums, who probably would have furnished better ideas for free), but at the stream from something I like (Avernum, ultimately derived from Exile - some of my favorite games of all time) being crossed with that of something I don't (Geneforge).

I resent, and I believe the section I speak for resents, the periodic efforts to dumb down your games. The market isn't even pushing towards dumb any more; I don't get why you're doing it. I don't mean dumb in terms of plot; that's at least understandable, because you've had other things on your mind and I don't expect every one to be a winner there. I mean the continual, incomprehensible slide into mediocrity in terms of game mechanics.

Exile had hundreds of spells, dozens of weapon types [from three inherent weapon classes], and a dozen trainable and modifiable statistics. People are still finding new things to do with BoE (even though it allows very little access to game mechanics!). A4 plays like a lazy fantasy throwaway by a big, heartless developer.

Note earlier that I said a significant section of your customers. I'm not just a random curmugeon: I'm personally responsible for a couple hundred dollars of your revenue. I would buy a sequel to Nethergate; in fact, I would buy three damn copies. I'd buy an Exile 4. I'd buy another version of Blades. I'd buy something entirely different. I like your games, but the ones I like best - the ones I love - came before you got the idea your target demographic was 10 and under, and swearing and moral ambiguity and having more ways to kill a monster than you could count to using your toes were no-nos.

Yeah, I'm sure you get letters that say 'Avernum 4 is the best ever'. I'm sure you also get letters thanking you for Homeland: Stone of Night. Not everyone has the time or the inclination to send you email, sir, and just because some of us don't doesn't mean you shouldn't discount us as customers.

For one thing, we aren't spending our parents' money.

[VCH]

Quote:

Originally written by Mr.Bookworm:

Quote:

Originally written by VCH:
Pff, forget Solberg, I want Cheeseball to return. Cheeseball was the real star.

Oh God, oh God. Please tell me you're joking.

Never! Cheeseball was more interesting than Solberg. And yes familiars and children are interesting diversions in a game.

[Slawbug]

Quote:

Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
You can't win an argument with a customer.

Having to win an argument with a customer is usually a pretty sound sign you're doing something wrong, isn't it?

Clearly, you have never worked in business, or any kind of service occupation for that matter.

There are plenty of changes Jeff has made in the past ten years that I don't agree with. But even by my standards, he still does a better job than pretty much anyone else out there. There are people who are much more deserving of whining and moaning than he is.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:
(rant)

Seconded, while with a bit less bile. I look forward to possibly being able to say "Avernum 5 is the best game ever" and meaning it, because I can't say it for A4.