"This" Vs. "That"? Min/Max questions

[Peter Principle]

OK, here are some other things I've been wondering about.

 

All other things being equal, is it better to have...

 

1) +1 point in Intelligence or +1 point in magical aptitude for a spell caster?

 

2) +1% armor or +1% stun resistance for a front line character?

 

3) +1 Str or +1 Dex if you're looking to improve a bow-shootin' character? for a melee character?

 

4) +1 to Arcane Knowledge or +1 to Nature Lore?

 

Oh, and if you can explain why you'd choose one over the other, that would be even better. Thanks for your opinions! : )

[Ephesos]

Let's see....

 

1) Intelligence. As long as you've got enough skill to cast the spell, I'd rather invest in the stat that can increase mental resistances and give more SP.

 

2) Stun resistance, actually. That sort of thing can be rather devastating. But a mere 1% in either will do basically nothing.

 

3) Dexterity for the archer, Strength for the melee-er. Seems straightforward to me.

 

4) Nature Lore, 'cause I'm a hippie. That, and I like avoiding fights and digging up strange things.

[Lilith]

1) Keep boosting Intelligence whenever you feel you don't have enough spell points for the encounters you're dealing with, and keep your Mage Spells and/or Priest Spells skill at least high enough that you can cast every spell you've found at the point in the game you're in, and preferably a little higher. If you can hold off on boosting Spellcraft and Magery at all until Cotra, do so; there's a trainer there where you can purchase them.

 

2) Stun resistance. Armor becomes pretty irrelevant once you start putting points in Parry, which you should do as soon as possible.

 

3) Dexterity for archers, Strength for melee fighters. Melee fighters don't really ever need more Dexterity than is required to qualify for special skills like Quick Strike and Gymnastics, and Strength doesn't help archers at all.

 

4) The most Arcane Lore you ever need in your party is 15 or so. The most Nature Lore you need is 25. (There's an incredibly powerful bow at the very end of the game that you'll miss out on if your party's Nature Lore isn't high enough, so it's worth putting that many points in it.)

[Blitzkrieg]

1) Intelligence. It is much better then mage/prist spell skills as long as you have enough to cast the spell in question you want.

 

2) Stun resistance. Not fun to have to miss like every other turn. And armor is useless when you can riposte three of every four attacks later in the game.

 

3) For melee fighters, strength. Dexterity for archers. I dont find whats so hard about this decision.

 

4) As the other guy said, get 25 nature lore and 15 arcane lore. As for what to get first, it doesnt really matter.

[Randomizer]

4) Get Arcane Lore first since it allows you to read spell books. Nature Lore lets you avoid some nuisance monster fights and unearth caches.

 

Arcane Lore gives you the arcane lore needed to read spell books in the later part of this thread.

[Alorael at Large]

Are you sure that Intelligence boosts spellcasting ability? I think that bonus only includes Mage or Priest skill, Spellcraft, and Magery. Intelligence is only good for a few resistances and the ever-important energy.

 

—Alorael, who thinks armor vs. stun resistance depends entirely on how much you get stunned. He never really had big stunning problems on his fighters even when he wasn't carefully boosting their stun resistance.

[Randomizer]

Stun resistance is based in part on endurance if I remember correctly. Most fighters have enough to reduce the problem and they also wear armor that reduces it.

[Slawbug]

Nope, stun resistance is based on Strength. Luck will also contribute a little.

 

And Alorael is right -- Intelligence does not contribute to spell strength at all. (In Exile, it was the ONLY thing that contributed to it, but that has changed.)

[Peter Principle]

OK, thanks to everyone so far. I like to read opinions like this since it helps me with similar decisions.

 

A few more:

 

+1 to [Mage/Priest] or +1 to Spellcraft?

 

+1 to [Mage/Priest] or +1 Magery?

 

+1 to Spellcraft or +1 to Magery?

[Nioca]

Quote:

+1 to [Mage/Priest] or +1 to Spellcraft?

Mage/Priest skill if you're just starting out, Spellcraft if you have a fairly high levels of Mage/Priest skill and are part way through the game. don't neglect Mage/Priest spells, though. Keep adding a point to it now and then.

Quote:

+1 to [Mage/Priest] or +1 Magery?

Same as above.

Quote:

+1 to Spellcraft or +1 to Magery?

Whichever one's cheaper at the moment. They both have the same effect.

[Alorael at Large]

Mage and Priest points add one bonus to the relevant spell type. Spellcraft and Magery are more expensive but add to both. Which one to put points in depends on whether your casters use one or both spell types and which one is currently lowest and thus cheapest.

 

—Alorael, who keeps Spellcraft and Magery even and generally fairly low until his Mage and Priest skills are high enough to cast everything.

[Peter Principle]

Are spellcraft and magery identical in their effects?

[Schrodinger]

Just a comment on 2). Every point in armor also adds a half point to fire, cold, and energy resistances, so increasing armor can be very useful for decreasing total damage received. It'll depend on your situation as to which is more useful.

 

Yes, spellcraft is identical to magery.

[Peter Principle]

Interesting. Then what's the rasion d'etre for two separate skills? Just curious.

[Nioca]

It may be because A4 was switched over to a brand-new engine. Spellcraft wasn't in the previous Avernums, but Magery was. Spellcraft was adopted from another Spiderweb series, Geneforge, and the skill worked on the same principles as Magery. When some of the elements of Geneforge were built into the new Avernum engine, slight oversights may have been made.

 

Or, more likely, Magery is a sort of bonus for powerful mages. A cheaper way to boost the power of your spells.

[Alorael at Large]

Actually, it lets you spend fewer skill points on magic bonuses. Adding another point to Spellcraft when you've already got 10 points is expensive. Adding another point to Spellcraft or Magery when you've got 5 in each is cheaper. It's not a big difference, but it's one of the perks of having a very serious caster.

 

—Alorael, who considers it only fair to get two skills now that Intelligence doesn't boost your power.

[Randomizer]

There is no point in increasing Mage or Priest past what you need to cast the spells you want. Jeff admitted that Magery and Spellcraft act the same but were supposed to be different and never got fixed.

[SevenMass]

For STR, DEX and, INT, my personal philosophy is to invest only as much as you need to get access to the special skills they lock.

 

You need 6 DEX to unlock all skills except gymnastics, and 8 DEX for gymnastics

 

You need 6 STR to unlock all skills that need STR.

 

You need 8 natural INT to unlock all special mage skills, and 6 natural INT to unlock Anatomy, witch is great for battle priests.

 

You need 8 END to unlock a bunch of skills that are useless, I would leave END at base, yes even in torment mode! There are 2 opportunities to increase con without skill investments in A4, and you could even do without them.

 

As for mage/priest, I would invest in it until it is level 17 (with natural mage/pure spirit, you only need to invest 10 levels, or 70 points in mage and 60 points in priest) By the time it hits level 17, you have had the opportunity to buy training in spellcraft. Then invest in spellcraft. I would also first buy training for magery before I invest points.

 

you need only as much arcane lore to get access to the most difficult spell book in the game.

And for nature lore it is the same. I can also add that if you choose to do without that bow mentioned before (really, it is only at the very end of the game, you don't miss that much) Your party only need about 18 instead of 25.

(remember that both AL and NL can be spread over your party, the total of all your characters is used)

 

To summarize: I don't think in turns of: "what skills should I invest points over other skills?"

I think: "what amount does each skill need to get the optimal/maximum benefit?" And then I work towards that benefit until I get there, and no more!

 

I do this in all CRPG's by the way. And Strategy games too, Focus almost all resources into a goal, until it is reached. And only as much as needed. If I have any stats/resources remaining after reaching my goals, It will be spend into my main power stat, or whatever will get me my (now inevitable) victory faster.

[Peter Principle]

Thanks again for all the help, everyone.

 

Two more questions:

 

1) Is there a list somewhere that shows the prerequisites for the special skills?

 

2) What skills do I invest in to reduce the likelihood that an opponent will be able to Parry/Riposte my HTH attacks?

[Randomizer]

1) For Hidden skills see this one.

 

2) The best way to block riposte/parry when you attack is to use area effects spells since they can''t be parried.

[Peter Principle]

Quote:

2) The best way to block riposte/parry when you attack is to use area effects spells since they can''t be parried.

How about hand to hand attacks? Does a higher skill with one-handed/pole weapons, or higher skill in Blademaster or Gymnastics or whatever reduce the chance of a parry or riposte?

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Peter Principle:
How about hand to hand attacks? Does a higher skill with one-handed/pole weapons, or higher skill in Blademaster or Gymnastics or whatever reduce the chance of a parry or riposte?

Nope. Ain't no way to reduce an opponent's chance of parrying you. The good news is that the same is true for your chance of parrying an opponent, which is one of the things that makes Parry such a ridiculously good skill.

At any rate, there are some things it's just not worth trying to fight in melee.