A4 - Singleton party

[Slawbug]

Question: Traps CAN just be set off, can't they? I know some of them have rather disastrous effects, but couldn't you find ways to survive via buffing, in the worst cases trading 1 invulnerability potion for a trap you really want to get past?

[Synergy]

Yeah, I suppose so. In some cases, traps (usually the second of two), summon monsters to fight. The second trap on the way to Mr. Knowledge Brews summons a golem if you trigger it, for instance.

 

I have no idea how hard it is to survive later traps, because I've never set one off. I suppose there are ways to survive them if necessary.

 

Kel, I know Alorael's method for handling that cave, which may be what I will do. I also bet I could probably just run out of there too, if I work it right.

[Slawbug]

It suddenly occurs to me that Enduring Shield and Armor are supposed to increase your dodge rate. According to the manual, "At higher skill, provides more protection for longer." Wowzers. I wonder how much difference skill makes? (Synergy, any ideas?) If it's at all significant, suddenly a priest-tank becomes very ideal. If it's enough of a difference, you can even pump priest skill enough to cast Retribution et al. quite well without feeling guilty about abandoning defense!

[*i]

I never did any testing on it, but I never really noticed a huge difference in my dodge rate late in the game with and without Enduring Armor. By no means does this say that it does not do that, but I believe its effect is small.

[Lilith]

Enduring Shield and Enduring Armour don't even do the same thing, despite the misleading description. They give different status effects, and Enduring Shield doesn't increase your maximum HP; however, Enduring Shield and Enduring Armor don't stack with each other (i.e. if you already have one effect on you, casting the other will have no effect). I'm not entirely sure whether the Enduring Armor effect also encompasses all the benefits of Enduring Shield.

[Alorael at Large]

I definitely noticed a difference between having Enduring Shield and not having it when I first got the spell. By the end it made less difference, but it was still a noticeable and helpful difference. Then again, none of my characters were really built as tanks.

 

Casting Enduring Armor while you have Enduring Shield active replaces the latter with the former. Casting Shield with Armor active does nothing. Armor may increase dodging more than Shield, but the obvious advantage is extra health. The health is nearly as much as Augmentation and stacks, which means that the two together add more than 100 hit points for about 70% increase in health. Very nice.

 

—Alorael, who recalls that Kel had a solution to the Flats cave that was both much easier and much more dependent on abusing the engine. He can't actually remember what the solution was, though. A refresher would be nice.

[Synergy]

I'll tell you what I did with my singleton. I killed the guys upstairs first and went back to Fort Samuels to replenish. I went down below and took out all the pylons one by one with acid from a safe distance till they were gone from all three areas. I went to the far SW room and activated the monster vats, came out and took out the creepy crawlies from around corners and with lots of in-your-face melee. This was all very easy compared to doing both at once, obviously, which I had always done before.

 

The first time one plays, or if one plays as if ignorant of what comes next, one gets to face all that and then the nasty party upstairs just to escape. That's a lot of energy potions and/or invulnerability potions for a singleton in particular. This method, which occurred to me on the spot, but might be what Alo meant he did a while back (but I never quite understood) required none of either, thanks to the replenishment birdbath provided.

 

I don't get the impression that Enduring Shield/Armor contribute a whole lot to dodging ability. I had a very high level priest for my two previous games, and him casting Enduring Armor onto my party did little to make them unhittable tanks. It would be good to find the actual stats on these, now that you've pointed it out.

[Slawbug]

I'm gonna look into this.

Incidentally, I also looked up the arcane lore details. Almost all spells can be had with 10 lore, and very few take more than 12 (just Host and Blow at 15, I believe). Retribution only takes 12, and if you want to wait to finish Lark's quest, that one seems to take no lore at all. I say "only" because you can pump lore by 6 from using the right items. These may not show up until late, I'm not sure, but between those and Cecil, it's an investment of only 10 skill points to get to 12 arcane lore...

I have been trying to get the game to spit out pile of dirt details to me, since they aren't stored in the scripts. That's harder, though. I've gotten it to do so, but only when starting a game or teleporting and only for nearby piles, so that's not much help at all. Meh.

[Synergy]

I don't know, man. I was just talking about cutting out Tool Use as a way of reducing spent points, and adding 10 Arcane Lore would be a wash at best, if one foregoes the Tool Use. Dispel Barriers WOULD be nice, though, for sure. More loot to be had that way, if nothing more.

 

UPDATE: My solo nephil is now at level 33, basically at end-game level for four PC's. Due to training and gear, he has 6 Strength, 5 Dex, 4 Int, 6 End, 6 Quick Action, 4 Quick Strike, 5 Lethal Blow, 6 Parry, 11 Sharpshooter, 12 Magery, 5 Gymnastics, 2 Anatomy, 17 Blademaster, 9 Bows,. I'm still at 7 Luck, and 11 Tool Use. Priest Spells are up to 10, which is good for Divine Fire, thank God (picture nephil on bended knee whilst incinerating pesky bandits). My basic stats (the first four) are pretty lame. You can see why I regret the 8 or 9 points I misinvested in Mage Spells as well as why I am thinking that I could have foregone 11 Tool Use (something like 55-60 SP there). I could have been DONE with priest spells now, or I could have 10 Arcane Lore instead, or I could have beefier defense (trainable Gymnastics, more Dex and Parry and Luck) as well as more Quick Action, of which I really should have some more.

 

Being at such a high level, I have 122 Health Points and 147 Spell Points from leveling up (I only have 4 Intelligence). This gives me a bit to work with in protracted battles already which is helpful.

 

I've got lots to go yet, though. I'm about 3/5 through this game, I'd say. I am scooting about on errands around the Castle and Patrick's Tower. I cleaned up the demons under Patrick's Tower. The main baddie was no big deal, but the "lesser" one off to the east a bit was a hassle, till I figured out an easy, but tedious way to take him out, and fortunately, it didn't require Invulnerability. It did take about four or five energy potions though.

 

This should work for any size party. All it requires is that every single turn you slow Bozo down once. He will spend every turn hasting himself and his beloved four pylons up. So acid and whittle the pylons one by one (starting with the Restoration Pylon), while slowing the big bad boy and finally douse him with liberal helpings of Repel Spirit. It took a while, but man, did it beat the alternative of going Invulnerable and dealing with reams of summonings, though it was fun to break out the Madness scrolls for that failed attempt.

 

What IS annoying my singleton are all the Writhing Mass goos which love to harrass me on the way out of a cave after a draining battle. They have an annoyingly high number of hit points, and while not a grave threat, are a big pain. Fortunately, I have most of the tunnels mopped up now.

 

I'm getting anywhere from zero to low double-digits for kills...basically, similar levels on and off since the Eastern Gallery. In fact, it's been better for some time than it was way back there when I was levelling up so fast around Fort Draco and Formello where you hit your first severely diminishing returns.

 

I've got more money than I know what to do with. I have like 20 fine leathers sitting around. I have a big pile of wands. I have been stashing many of the unique items, so I couuld have a lot more loot if I ever needed to cash in. Once past the Eastern Gallery, the only thing I have bought or trained in is Bows, Sharpshooter, and Quick Strike. It's a ways off before I can kill the shades (wonder how THAT will go?) and get acces to Parry and Blademaster—why would I need more of Blademaster? I'll buy it anyways. Is there a damage cap on swords? I bet I'm already at it. I'm getting up to 50-something on sword hits at present, more than I ever used to get with my party of four dedicated melee man. Resistance and Magical Efficiency are still a ways off, and I dread what I have to do first to get them.

 

I'm getting hit about half of the time at this point. I want to be more dodgy. I'm not sure how many more levels I'm going to get out of this game. I need like 9 levels worth of SP to get my Divine Retribution, I think. Yikes.

[Synergy]

Regarding traps: I just set one off with my singleton, unintentionally (I blame the port wine) and received all of 8 fire damage from it, in Dharmon. Tool Use looks more dispensible for singletons all the time.

 

Oh, except that there are four traps in sequence in order to acquire Demonslayer. I supppose it might be possible to endure them with an Invulnerability potion and fight the summons on the last one. Demonslayer is useful against the Final Foe, but not really very beefy or necessary otherwise. I use the Oozing Blade most of the time.

[*i]

Amazing how our base 10 number system gives us some sense of significance of a new millennium. At any rate, Happy New Year.

[Synergy]

What''s the matter, Stareye, did my ruthless self-editing strand your reply in a baffling fashion?

[Synergy]

Here is an update on my singleton venture.

 

I am at Level 40, just shy of 41. I’ve cleaned out the Great Cave entirely, except I just remembered I forgot to pay a little visit to the savage slith lands from the tunnel near the Castle, so I’m heading back now. The shades are destroyed, and none required more than 2-3 attempts. For one I used Invulnerability potions (the one in Blosk was particularly pesky), but the others succumbed readily to my tank magician.

 

The Bow of Decay and Oozing Blade in combination are proving a deadly duo of weaponry on the offense. I get to acid and poison many of my foes and the acid is especially brutal after 2-4 hits from my bow. On foes who riposte or otherwise damage me back on strikes, I just acid bowstrike them at close range instead. A strategy I am using often is getting up next to foes to keep them from using spells or archery, but still using the acid bow along with the poisoned sword.

 

I got Captain Call in Silvar to train me in Blademaster and Parry after killing the shades. I’d already gotten Quick Strike much ealier (in Almaria I think), as money is not a problem. I have 10,000 left over at the moment. I had over 20, 000 not long ago.

 

I made it to the Basalt Fortress and survived the final confrontation there—it took two attempts, and I was only able to save one of my friendly assistants out of the four I started with (I have no Mass Healing, though, come to think of it, I have the money...I should go get it to Mass Heal friendly helpers hereafter.) I patiently destroyed seven pylons to carve a clear and easy path in, then mopped up everything on the way out and on a couple return visits (I can only carry so much as a singleton, alas).

 

I liberated the Spire in a lightning ninja assault run, which was great fun. Killing the final foe took a while, but was not diffficult.

 

I hightailed it after that right up to Bargha where I could finally buy two levels of Divine Retribution. Yay! I put it immediately to good use on some Spire rebel scum, and it clocked in at 136 HP against an archer. Not too shabby. I also have gotten 110 HP out of my Oozing blade against an archer, unbelievably, though normally, I’m getting 20’s-80’s from the blade, depending on defenses of foes. In my previous two complete games with parties of four, I was getting 20’s-40’s out of melee strikes typically. Perhaps the 22 Blademaster I have now is helping, you think?

 

I got some lovely Answering Gauntlets made for me in Bargha (the first thing I’ve had made for myself in a long long time in this game.) The riposte and parry bonuses from those gloves are making a very noticeable difference. It is very gratifying to watch a warrior bounce 45 HP of damage back onto himself.

 

I have finished all of the Testing site battles now with little trouble with any of them. Anything with freezing power like basilisks, (except pylons) have no effect on me. I just run up and acid/poison them to death at my leisure. One of the Spire Arena foes cast Terror on me and I ran off for a bit, but that is the first mind control experience I’ve suffered in quite some time. I am not using bonus AP gear, but have opted for my most tanklike defenses since my defenses aren’t quite as good as I would like stat-wise. I am just starting to add more Dexterity now and will add Gymnastics when I get it trainable. I am done with Priest spells FINALLY (at 15 for DR).

 

I have 10 Bows and 13 Sharpshooter, 4 Quick Strike, 12 Parry (!), 3 Anatomy, 8 Gymnastics, 3 Riposte, 5 Lethal Blow, 14 Magery, 2 Resistance. Most of these are from natural bonuses, gear bonuses, and two levels trained where possible. I am not trainable in any of these (excluding Bows) yet. I have 223 HP when augmented and 175 SP, still with only 4 Intelligence. Magery is making my spells very potent now. I haven’t touched Spellcraft except for the two levels I could buy. My Strength is only 7, barely enough to carry the minimal gear, potions, and alternate weapons I like to have along.

 

Every single battle or challenge I have been worried about has proven surprisingly manageable. My toughest battle so far has been the east demon under Patrick’s Tower, because of his four pylons. That was hard work and took 3-4 attempts to manhandle.

 

I agree a Divinely Touched nephil with Pure Spirit would probably make the most potent and affordable combination, though my nephil here with DT and Elite Warrior is doing mighty fine, having great melee and Bow ability for his EW status. He can walk in just about anywhere tanklike and hack away, keeping magic for healing, shielding, hasting, and the occasional Daze, Icy Rain, Divine Fire, and now...Divine Retribution!!! DR is a priest’s best friend, and easily the most gratifying spell to employ in the whole game.

 

My luck is only at five, since I’m not using the Clover Boots anymore. The defensive/resistant properties of the accidentally over-factored Gazerskin Sandals are too good to pass up. I have 108% armor, and 79-94% in everything else except Mental, which is a paltry 27%.

 

My mage spells stopped at 9, but could have stopped at 8 (just enough for Lightning Spray was all I needed, and even that could be foregone probably, considering it is not a true area spell). If one chose to forego LS and maybe even Augmentation (which is really not necessary often at all and can be done with potions as Slarty suggests), then the Warrior Priest could add just enough Mage spells to get Unlock Doors, which is, what...only 6 in Mage Spells. My verdict is still out on whether or not Arcane Lore is necessary. I am doing quite nicely with only level 2 spells in everything. If one chose to forego thieving abilities and AL, then one could either get some decent Nature Lore to help ward off pesky critters and uncover more herbs and loot in caches. This is what I miss most, being able to open caches, well, that and dispelling barriers. If one chose to forego AL, TU, and NL, then one could have a mightily defensive, dodgy fighter and priest. I think any one of these variations would work. Mine is far from optimal, and is still kicking butt nonetheless.

 

NEXT: teach the uppity sliths a lesson or two, then carve a beeline to Craftmaster Strine and see how many Knowledge Brews I can chug.

[Slawbug]

You know... that could be another way to do it. Pump armor and all of your resistances as high as possible, instead of pumping dodge. A few points into Endurance, a lot into Hardiness, Luck, and Resistance. Boost with Steel Skin and Prismatic Shield (and Protection), although getting the spell skill points for both of those would suck.

 

I wonder how much damage you can prevent with high enough armor/resists? I've already seen goblins hit me for zero damage, and my armor rating was only around 30 at the time. All those stat boosts plus Charmed Plate, Gazerskin Sandals, and so on... that's a lot of resistance!

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Slartucker:
You know... that could be another way to do it. Pump armor and all of your resistances as high as possible, instead of pumping dodge. A few points into Endurance, a lot into Hardiness, Luck, and Resistance. Boost with Steel Skin and Prismatic Shield (and Protection), although getting the spell skill points for both of those would suck.

I wonder how much damage you can prevent with high enough armor/resists? I've already seen goblins hit me for zero damage, and my armor rating was only around 30 at the time. All those stat boosts plus Charmed Plate, Gazerskin Sandals, and so on... that's a lot of resistance!

On one of my parties in the beta, I had a character with Demon Slayer, a ton of hostile resistance items, steel skill, buffing spells, etc, that would frequently get hit for zero damage.

It's possible to hit around 100% hostile effect resistance with items, if my memory serves me right.

[Slawbug]

Yes, but does 100% resistance actually prevent 100% of damage?

[Spidweb]

"Yes, but does 100% resistance actually prevent 100% of damage?"

 

Nope. I tried to, for the first time, actually provide an explanation for how this works. It's in the docs, I think in the combat chapter.

 

Basically, each piece of armor eats a percentage of the remaining damage. I love this system and wish I thought it up years ago. It makes balance MUCH easier. It is the main factor that helps me keep the game a challenge at higher levels.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Synergy]

Quote:

Originally written by Slartucker:
Boost with Steel Skin and Prismatic Shield (and Protection), although getting the spell skill points for both of those would suck.

Steel Skin is a priest spell I picked up on my way up to Divine Retribution, and is used before any significant confrontation. I cast Enduring Armor the moment I set foot outside any town. I haven't really had any problem not having Prismatic Shield. I have been charmed or terrified in about three or four battles during this singleton game, with no dire results in any situation. Well, my first attempt on Kolokh before I got a strategy down was lethal once he terrified me and laid waste to me while I was dumbly running into the wall instead of wisely out of the room. And the ghosts in the Giant Lands scared my nephil for a few turns, but you'd be scared too if you saw a roomful of ghosts.

I think a good mix of dodginess and resistances works well, but it could be fun to focus strongly on just one or the other and see how it works. The game does seem to reward balance quite well, rather than extremes.

I predict I will finish this game soon with little serious difficulty. I am thinking another run as a singleton on Tricky or Torment with a Priest/Melee nephil with some Nature Lore, but little to no Tool Use and no Arcane Lore.

[Alorael at Large]

Does armor always apply the largest percentage first (Take away 40% of damage, then 20% of remainder, then 5% of the remainder of that) or does the order depend on the type of item (first armor, then shield, then boots)?

 

—Alorael, who will take advantage of having the man himself checking in while he can. It's very nice!

[Slawbug]

"Basically, each piece of armor eats a percentage of the remaining damage. I love this system and wish I thought it up years ago. It makes balance MUCH easier. It is the main factor that helps me keep the game a challenge at higher levels."

 

Ooh, thanks for the answer. That *is* a great system. Teach me to read the readme! Hmm... so basically, those Poor Leather Helmets are completely useless...

 

One more question: are character-innate resistances (say, from being a Slith, from Luck, from Hardiness, from Endurance, etc) all lumped together and applied as one? And does this mean that an Endurance of 20 will *actually* make you immune to Poison and Acid? (Or, more to the point, that 10 Hardiness and 20 Resistance will give 100% immunity?)

[*i]

Quote:

Originally written by Archmage Alorael:
Does armor always apply the largest percentage first (Take away 40% of damage, then 20% of remainder, then 5% of the remainder of that) or does the order depend on the type of item (first armor, then shield, then boots)?

—Alorael, who will take advantage of having the man himself checking in while he can. It's very nice!

From looking at the manual, it the formula is the damage times all of the block percentages. So if you would normally take 100 damage with no armor and have three pieces of armor for 30%, 10%, and 5% you get:

100*(1-0.3)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.95) = 60 damage approximately

Multiplication, last I checked, was commutative so it should not depend on any order.

[Mivayan]

Quote:

Originally written by Archmage Alorael:
Does armor always apply the largest percentage first (Take away 40% of damage, then 20% of remainder, then 5% of the remainder of that) or does the order depend on the type of item (first armor, then shield, then boots)?

That shouldn't matter. If I understand it right, the math is 0.60 * 0.80 * 0.95 = 0.456, meaning 54.4% of the damage is stopped, as opposed to 65 which it would be in most systems.

Question: which (if any) is displayed on screen?

/Miv, who probably will play a full pary when the windows version is released.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Mivayan:
That shouldn't matter. If I understand it right, the math is 0.60 * 0.80 * 0.95 = 0.456, meaning 54.4% of the damage is stopped, as opposed to 65 which it would be in most systems.

Question: which (if any) is displayed on screen?

The number displayed for your armour in the character info screen is simply the sum of all the percentages. Which means that having a displayed armor value of something ludicrous like 108 is actually somewhat misleading, since you'll still only be blocking most of the damage rather than all of it.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Archmage Alorael:
—Alorael, who will take advantage of having the man himself checking in while he can. It's very nice!

At the risk of repeating myself, I will, er, repeat myself: I agree wholeheartedly.

[Synergy]

Well, my singleton game is rapidly drawing to a close now. I am down to the final confrontation, or I should say series of confrontations in the north Remote Lands.

 

Lack of Dispel Barrier is a serious bummer. Slarty or others trying singletons, make note:

 

If you want to use Craftmaster Strine to get Knowledge Brews or get into the upper part of Erika's ruin or raid the Castle treasury or enter any other of a couple dozen barrier-guarded locations, you're going to have to get Dispel Barrier. The path under the river to Strine is blocked by a half dozen barriers which do not respond to Piercing Crystals. Basically, once you leave the Eastern Gallery, about the only thing that a Piercing Crystal will break is the barriers to the test sites. Otherwise, they are worthless.

 

I'm really really bummed not being able to pay a little visit to Strine. I have a LOT of wasted herbs. I think I could have made about 15 Knowledge brews. That would have been good for some Dex and Strength I wish I had right now. I'm pretty much stuck with what I have at this point for the rest of the game, unless I earn one more level on my way into the ruin. I'll give one more report and some conclusions when I finish.

 

Color me Highly Disappointed just now. Being singleton has been wonderful in many regards, and kind of a drag missing out on spellbooks, caches, and everything behind barriers on the other hand.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Synergy:
Well, my singleton game is rapidly drawing to a close now. I am down to the final confrontation, or I should say series of confrontations in the north Remote Lands.

Lack of Dispel Barrier is a serious bummer. Slarty or others trying singletons, make note:

If you want to use Craftmaster Strine to get Knowledge Brews or get into the upper part of Erika's ruin or raid the Castle treasury or enter any other of a couple dozen barrier-guarded locations, you're going to have to get Dispel Barrier. The path under the river to Strine is blocked by a half dozen barriers which do not respond to Piercing Crystals. Basically, once you leave the Eastern Gallery, about the only thing that a Piercing Crystal will break is the barriers to the test sites. Otherwise, they are worthless.

I'm really really bummed not being able to pay a little visit to Strine. I have a LOT of wasted herbs. I think I could have made about 15 Knowledge brews. That would have been good for some Dex and Strength I wish I had right now. I'm pretty much stuck with what I have at this point for the rest of the game, unless I earn one more level on my way into the ruin. I'll give one more report and some conclusions when I finish.

Color me Highly Disappointed just now. Being singleton has been wonderful in many regards, and kind of a drag missing out on spellbooks, caches, and everything behind barriers on the other hand.

Which is why I am making a duo. I have no desire to be bummed out.

[Synergy]

Well, I'm not saying I am disappointed with my game. It's been a lot of fun, gratifying, and remarkably successful. There is something really appealing to me about only operating one character at all times.

 

What has been disappointing are the details I have forgotten before I got there...barrier locations, and the fact that Dispel Barrier comes from a spellbook, and not teaching by Kelner. Those have been two big Oops in my game, to no ill effect, but to my annoyance. I would strategize my PC construct differently knowing what I know now. Thing is, I'm not sure what that is now, because of the need for Arcane Lore and Mage Spells high enough to get Dispel Barrier. I'd have to rethink this now.

[Delicious Vlish]

Well, I have some doubts, but could a pure mage with no priest spells make it through the game? Seems like it might work.

 

Of course, that means dealing with Arcane Blow and it's stupifying 25 damage. Oooh! Aaah!

 

Bah!

[Slawbug]

If you don't mind waiting a bit, you can get 3 points in Mage Spells just from equipment. That means only buying 8 points, which is doable. Heck, I've already bought 6 for Unlock, so maybe I will end up getting Dispel Barrier after all. Certainly it's worth it, if you get 15 knowledge brews out of the deal, and perhaps some extra equipment on top of that.

 

Someone else said they had about 35 brews at the end of their game, which suggests Nature Lore gets you about 20 brews. 40 skill points is only about 12-14 points of Nature Lore, though, so it seems like Nature Lore is a losing proposition for singletons after all. Bummer. Are there any other cool items buried in the dirt, besides the Heartstrike Bow?

 

Update, btw, on my singleton: I just got Enduring Shield -- I forgot you could get that in Formello! Everything has become ridiculously easy now. Even missiles have very low hit chances against me now, turrets for example at about 10%. (Excuse me... not turrets, "fungi.")

[Synergy]

Well, my singleton adventure has drawn to a close, and I can now officially state that a singleton game is entirely doable, at least on Easy level. I think Normal would have been nearly as easy. I think Torment would be a challenge...mostly of one’s patience, if nothing else. Just whittling away that insanely rock-like Vahnatai Lord in Rentar’s Keep at the end is more annoying that anything else, especially since his Terror spells overrule Mindshield scrolls about 1/3 - 1/2 of the time, at least with my singleton’s relatively low intelligence. The only thing that does any significant damage to him really is Smite. Even worse, though, is the Vanhnatoi Rentar summons at the end. Not even worth the bother trying to kill it as NOTHING does above about 10 damage to it.

 

I was just shy of Level 45 at the conclusion. I had 24 Blademaster and 17 Magery from DT/EW, 11 Bows and 14 Sharpshooter. For all four of these, all but two of each came as free bonuses. I had 3 Blademaster bonuses from gear, which means DT/EW give 19 Blademaster levels to a singleton by level 44. I was doing some terrific, er, wonderful, er awesome damage with melee, unlike any previous game where I thought melee was a bit wimpy.

 

Spells all worked fine at two levels only, though I did notice some of them wearing off more often than normally with higher levels. With Tool Use 11, I was able to unlock a difficulty 28 door.

 

The giant fight in the Dark Lands which Thuryl (I think) was concerned about, my singleton was so rock-like, that even the one turn they got to chuck a few stones at him did little damage. By four rounds of DIVINE FIRE!!! they were no more. That was especially gratifying, watching all those bodies drop at once. It took a long time to kill the Hakaai at the bridge. I also destroyed every last pylon before going into the Keep, in a vain attempt to gain one more level. I kept one Vahnatai escort alive up to the Mindreaper Lich just before facing You Know Who in the final chamber. I suppose if I had tried a little harder, I could have had company in the final fight too, but it really was almost more bother than help.

 

I used a hella lot of Energy potions for the last set of battles, making up something like 30 of them when I found I couldn’t get to Craftmaster Strine without Dispel Barrier. I had a Divine Retribution field day. I used 2 or 3 Invulnerability potions in all of the last battles in total, but didn’t really need to use any.

 

It was quite fun playing with a singleton, but having to sacrifice two or three skills to make him work is kind ofa drag. Tool Use, Arcane Lore, Nature Lore...two of these are going to suffer or be axed entirely to make it work Maybe Slarty will prove otherwise, but getting Arcane Lore and Mage Spells high enough to get Dispel Barrier means Tool Use and Nature Lore almost surely have to be left behind. I wouldn’t want to play without Dispel Barrier as a singleton again. It would be nice to get at a lot of those other spellbooks with the Arcane Lore necessary to get Dispel Barrier too. Caches are dispensible. They mostly contain herbs, crystals, helms, and the occasional piercing stones, and maybe a wisdom crystal or two...oh yes, and one with zero Arcane Lore requirements under Patrick’s Tower which amusingly enough contains a skull, heh. Nice touch, Jeff. Too bad it didn’t talk or otherwise entertain me.

 

I think that I will try a duo game next, on Torment, like Vlish is trying. I want to be able to do everything in the game if I’m going to play once more. Eventually, someone will do Singleton on Torment. I see no reason it can’t be done.

 

My nephil is pretty tired after doing so much by himself. He’s relaxing in semi-retirement at the Geyser Inn now with a very nice female nephil who hangs on his every word by the fireplace on cold evenings. Mrrrrrrrrr.

[Slawbug]

Grats on finishing. *cheers*

[Synergy]

Thanks! I'll watch with interest how your singleton venture progresses. Do keep us updated.

[Delicious Vlish]

My torment game is like chiseling away at a mountain with a needle.

 

I'm doing it, but damn. Two people are just not producing enough damage for it to be done in a timely manner.

[Spidweb]

Very interesting stuff. Thanks for posting that report. I am happy that singletons are workable with lots of care and thought. It's one way for the really jaded, super-skilled Avernum players to still find a challenge.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Randomizer]

Singletons in Torment

 

After reading this topic, I decided to try one of my own in torment mode. This has eventually become three different singletons with each one emphasizing a something.

 

The first was a human pure spirit elite warrior (HPSEW) with only a 30% experience penalty. I thought that this would give me more levels than Synergy's nephil divine touched elite warrior. It appears that this will only give 3 or 4 more levels at the end.

 

The second was a nephil pure spirit divine touch (NPSDT) with a 55% penalty and damage avoidance through dodging. He still gets hit, but I think that is a result of torment mode. Boosting dodging means sacrificing spell levels and arcane lore.

 

The third was a nephil natural mage divine touch (NNMDT) where I tried for damage resistance through hardiness with the goal to get resistance skill and damage resistances above 100%.

 

I wanted to get Dispel Barrier and other spellbooks so I bought Arcane Lore from Cecil in Cotra and trained with 10 skill points in the Eastern Gallery to get Arcane Lore 6. This gave me Smite, Cure Poison, Haste, Unlock doors, Minor Heal and Heal, Enduring Shield (2 levels), augmentation, and Lightning Spray. After Tower Colony and 8 more skill points I now have Arcane Lore at 8 and went back to get another Heal, Repel Spirit, Summon Shade, Unshackle Mind, Call Beast, Minor Summoning, Mass Healing, Terror, and Prismatic Shield. Going up to Arcane Lore 12 will have to wait.

 

First Aid is not worth training and Nature Lore will have to wait until the end. At Nature Lore 15 (2 bought in Fort Duvno, 1 in Fort Dranlon quest, Explorer ring for 2 more, and 10 trianed at 30 skill points) there should be enough ingrdients in caches to generate more Knowledge brews than I used up to get there.

 

Tool use needs to be trained to level 8 in order to open all doors and locked boxes around Fort Monastary and Grindstone. I usually started with 5 to get a most of the places at the start. Tinker's Bauble and Gloves give 3 more levels, but I will need to raise it again after Alamira to a natural 12. Open Doors spell helps if you have enough health points to survive the traps. For instance under Grindstone needs 60 to get to the piercing crystals and Skunky Joe's needs about 80.

 

That all the different singletons have survived shows that it is the player's style that should determine the form. I relied on spell damage to get rid of monsters and used weapons only against much weaker monsters that could't hit me. Summoned Shades helped against Hrickis and I couldn't have defeated Nodicaus without them. Otherwise I had to find the most effective damaging spell type versus the monster to slay it without running out of spell points. For example, spellcasters tend to waste time if you slow them and then damage them with Acid Spray.

 

This will give you some indication of what the singletons can look like and how many levels they will have as they progress. I would do it a little differently if I did this again. I was too slow building up dodge ability in my NPSDT.

 

The initial singletons were:

All started with Mage Spells 5 and Priest Spells 5

 

HPSEW - Strength 2, Dexterity 3, Intelligence 2, Endurance 4, Spellcraft 1, Tool Use 5,and Luck 1

 

NPSDT - Str 2, Dex 2, Int 2, End 5, TU 8

 

NNMDT - Str 2, Dex 6, Int 2, End 3, Luck 1

 

I found that Blademaster 2 at Str 2 allows you to slap a goblin for 10 to 11 points damage with your bare hand. I ran out of spellpoints when I was suprised by a goblin and slapped him to death. You shouldn't sell all your weapons to buy spell before getting the Shielding Knife.

 

When you have EW instead of DT you need Spellcraft to makeup for not getting Magery. EW does increase carrying capacity and give you parry to block damage.

 

Entering the Eastern Gallery after using 5 Wisdom Crystals/Knowledge Brews:

 

HPSEW is at level 16 - Str 2, Dex 6, Int 4, End 5, Mage 6, Priest 7, Spellcraft 5, TU 8, Luck 4

 

NPSEW is at level 15 - Str 2, Dex 5, Int 6, End 6, Mage 6, Priest 7, TU 8, Luck 4

 

NNMDT is at level 15- Str 2, Dex 7, Int 5, End 6, Mage 7, Priest 6, TU 8, Luck 2

 

Leaving the Eastern gallery after 2 more WC/KB and buying and quest rewards Nature Lore and First Aid 3:

 

HPSEW is at level 25 - Str 2, Dex 7, Int 5, End 5, Mage 7, Priest 9, Spellcraft 5, Arcane Lore 5, Hardiness 2, Defense 7, TU 8, Luck 4

 

NPSDT is at level 23 - Str 2, Dex 7, Int 6, End 6, Mage 8, Priest 8, Spellcraft 2, Arcane Lore 6, Hardiness 2, Defense 3, TU 8, Luck 4

 

NNMDT is at level 24 - Str 2, Dex 8, Int 5, End 8, Mage 9, Priest 7, Spellcraft 2, Arcane Lore 6, Hardiness 6, Defense 1, TU 8, Luck 2

 

The extra level appears to be because having Lightning Spray earlier I went after the Sliths across from Fort Dranlon a few levels earlier to get more experience points for the encounters. I didn't have enough money to get an extra level in Defense.

[Ash Lael]

Is beating the demo with a singleton worth bragging about in any way? Because I'm not likely to register.

 

EDIT: On Torment, of course.

[Kelandon]

My impression is that it is not. It doesn't get hard until the clawbugs in the Eastern Gallery, and that's past the demo barrier.

[Delicious Vlish]

Yes, the bugs are bad.

 

Did anybody bring the Raid?

[Ash Lael]

Okay. I'll have to do it without magic or only using one hand or something...

[Dikiyoba]

Or just make it your goal to loot every cache and dispel every barrier.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

I don't think there's any way to truly make the beginning difficult short of not spending any skill points whatsoever.

 

—Alorael, who has managed the normal difficulty demo handily with no casters, all mages, all priests, and all archers. It would be tougher on torment, but he's not amazingly skilled like a certain Ash.

[Randomizer]

Try fighting Nodicaus with a singleton before leaving the Eastern Gallery. You can't dodge his attacks and there are only so many invulnerability potions available. That is a real challenge to do it without burning up too many magic items.

 

The game isn't as hard for a singleton as Jeff would like, but you have to make sacrifices that restrict what you can do during the game. No looting every cache until the end when all they are good for is extra money and knowledge brews.

 

Torment mode gives the monsters a decent chance of hitting you as opposed to easy where you can just stand there a kill monsters leisurely.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Try fighting Nodicaus with a singleton before leaving the Eastern Gallery. You can't dodge his attacks and there are only so many invulnerability potions available. That is a real challenge to do it without burning up too many magic items.

The game isn't as hard for a singleton as Jeff would like, but you have to make sacrifices that restrict what you can do during the game. No looting every cache until the end when all they are good for is extra money and knowledge brews.

Torment mode gives the monsters a decent chance of hitting you as opposed to easy where you can just stand there a kill monsters leisurely.

Torment Mode does a heck of a lot more than that.

Some enemies... It's like chopping down the mightiest tree in the forest... With a herring!

[Dintiradan]

I'm so sad; no more Nephil archer on Torment.

 

In BoA, it was Nephil archer with Fast on Feet & Brittle Bones, with a disgusting amount of DEX, Bows, and Sharpshooter. Worked pretty good (APF was weird though).

 

I change him to FoF & Deadeye in A4, and I'm feeling pretty good after mowing down a couple goblins. Then I run into baddies I can't drop in one shot. Stupid eight moves per round. Stupid changing Attacks of Opportunity into "slowing down" (NO! 9AP -> 1AP!). I renounce all claims I made on how I liked the new combat system.

 

Oh well. Maybe I'll try "Hard" instead of "Torment".

 

Hmmm. I'll continue the trend with MP.

--------------------

ANOTHER SHUBBERY!!!

- The Knights who say Ni (Quest for the Holy Grail)

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Dintiradan:
I'm so sad; no more Nephil archer on Torment.

In BoA, it was Nephil archer with Fast on Feet & Brittle Bones, with a disgusting amount of DEX, Bows, and Sharpshooter. Worked pretty good (APF was weird though).

I change him to FoF & Deadeye in A4, and I'm feeling pretty good after mowing down a couple goblins. Then I run into baddies I can't drop in one shot. Stupid eight moves per round. Stupid changing Attacks of Opportunity into "slowing down" (NO! 9AP -> 1AP!). I renounce all claims I made on how I liked the new combat system.

Oh well. Maybe I'll try "Hard" instead of "Torment".

Hmmm. I'll continue the trend with MP.
--------------------
ANOTHER SHUBBERY!!!
- The Knights who say Ni (Quest for the Holy Grail)

New combat system is different, but not bad. It forces you to play tactically on higher difficulties. Run and gun is just as important as before.

Archery is, still, hands down, the most powerful combat skill in the game, for reasons that will be made all to clear later.

Oh, and try Divinely Touched on a nephil.

[Randomizer]

Singletons in Torment

 

Damaging monsters is faster than using a herringbone, but you have to use spells and the right one to maximize damage by matching type. I spend a lot of time going back to recharge.

 

I finally got all my singetons through the Tower Colony. After finding since the start 10 Wisdom Crystals/Knowledge Brews (including the one behind the Dispel barrier in the honeycomb).

 

HumanPSEW is at level 30, Nephil PSDT and NMDT are at 28. Natural mage meant I can use more armor options and boost armor to 101.

 

I like the extra damage of the Oozing Blade but have gone with the Ghostly Knife for its defense abilities and lower weight. I've been using the Girdle of Avoidance (DEX+2) to boost dodging. The Crystal Talisman and Incantor's Ring have given my PS singletons two extra levels of mage spells so I'll cap them at mage spell level 9.

 

Now it's on to Almaria and R-I's trap. This will give me levels to boost dodging in my PS's and finally get resistance in my NM.

[Randomizer]

Well after a lot of cutting with a herringbone and three days lost when I overwrote a character's file, I got all three singletons across the Sulphorous Flats, through the inadequate trap, cleared Camp Samuels, reached the Castle, and visited the nicer parts of Almaria. All that only got me two more levels. Heading south to get rid of two more bandits and the fourth test pushed them up another one.

 

I'm putting the human PS EW and nephil NM DT on hold for now. The first is being hampered by not having the intelligence to boost magery for a few more levels so my damage is less than I would like. The Natural Mage is going to need almost every point in his remaining levels to get priest spell up to 15 and tool use over 12. I need an accurate count of the number of wisdom crystals and knowledge brews that I can get before confronting the shades,

 

Meanwhile the nephil PS DT is slogging his way through the slith lands for extra money. I can't buy anymore spells until I get more spell levels. I'm using up more energy potions than I want to when I get swarmed. Fight and retreat to town for recharges is going to be very boring.

[Randomizer]

Singleton in Torment

 

Well I finally had enough time to run my Nephil PS DT through the Great Cave and adjacent areas. I'm now going through the tunnels west of Fort Remote.

 

I reached level 38 and have used 23 wisdom crystals/knowledge brews. Missed 2 crystals because I haven't found a fine waveblade for Grall-Ihnro's quest. Haven't used the 5 crystals/brews that are marked NY. I'll save sangging those for later.

 

At this point I've got a strength 4, dexterity 8, intelligence 6, endurance 8, melee weapons 2, bow 10, thrown weapons 10, quick action 2, mage 9, priest 14, arcane lore 12 (I want spells), spellcraft 2, hardiness 3, defense 5, tool use 12, nature lore 3, first aid 3, luck 5, quickstrike 2, blademaster 10, gymnastics 4, magery 13, resistance 2, magical efficeincy 8, and sharpshooter 12.

 

I found that pylons are worth 9 to 10 experience at level 25 and drop to 4 for level 38. Oh well, at least the provide nice treasure. Next post will be after the Basalt Fortress and the shades. I'll have enough to get another priest spell level and divine retribution.

[Walter]

Actually, you get 2 points of mage spells from equipment fairly early on (incantor's ring and clarity talisman), and I don't thin the enchanters robe was all that late either (great cave I believe).

[Randomizer]

This isn't counting equipment. I've got all three, tinker's gloves and bauble for tool use, and a bunch of other neat stuff that I switch to help out in certain occasions. That was base stats from using skill points and buying training. I'm just giving people an idea about what a singleton will look like at different stages so they can plan how to spend the money and points.