Avernum 5 Early, Early Notes

[Randomizer]

Actually the relative sizes has nothing to do with which came first. The quote only implies that the person who named the Avernite city might have come from the surface city. It doesn't say if there is another surface city with the same name. It also doesn't rule out that both were named for something else.

 

Back to suggestions for Avernum 5. Geneforge 4 got rid of part of the haul everything back to town to sell by reducing most item values to 0.

[NikeJuice]

I think that they should set it in another of the Empire lands, like Aizo, and also the underground caves. It'd be cool to have some thing really epic, like Lord of the Rings, before the films were made...

[Alorael at Large]

Maybe it would be cool, but it's pretty clear that it's not happening.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think Lord of the Rings fits in the world of Avernum. Scrappy heroes who are more or less in it for the loot and bureaucrats who pay them don't exactly meet the requirements of epic fantasy.

[Tyranicus]

Quote:

Originally written by NikeJuice:
I think that they should set it in another of the Empire lands, like Aizo, and also the underground caves. It'd be cool to have some thing really epic, like Lord of the Rings, before the films were made...

Who are you? How in the world does a noob know about Aizo?

[Alorael at Large]

Aizo, Pralgad, and Vantanas appear in one of the books available in E3/A3. Doston is the continent that's a pure fabrication by this community.

 

—Alorael, who uses "this" very loosely. Please don't respond with angry rants.

[nikki.]

Quote:

Originally written by Guilt by Dissociation:
Aizo, Pralgad, and Vantanas appear in one of the books available in E3/A3. Doston is the continent that's a pure fabrication by this community.

—Alorael, who uses "this" very loosely. Please don't respond with angry rants.

May I rant for not being a n00b, and yet still being unaware of the continent of Doston?

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Nikki x:
May I rant for not being a n00b, and yet still being unaware of the continent of Doston?

If I'm not mistaken, it came from the Arena, which was a very long-running RP that ended up, in its final incarnation, on Desperance. It shows up in TM scenarios at least, and perhaps others.

[Tyranicus]

Quote:

Originally written by Guilt by Dissociation:
Aizo, Pralgad, and Vantanas appear in one of the books available in E3/A3. Doston is the continent that's a pure fabrication by this community.

—Alorael, who uses "this" very loosely. Please don't respond with angry rants.

This is very true, but the average player wouldn't remember this.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Not unless they take notes! *looks through notes to find the above mentioned continents and finds them under 'surface lore' (except Doston)*

[jamesmcm]

It needs some form of multiplayer.....

I'd like LAN like Diablo 2 has, where a game can be loaded and saved....

[*i]

No, it doesn't, Jeff clearly said he will not do this.

[Dikiyoba]

And people have already told you that multiplayer is not going to happen. Let it go and move on. Please.

 

Dikiyoba.

[SevenMass]

Quote:

Originally written by jamesmcm:
It needs some form of multiplayer.....
I'd like LAN like Diablo 2 has, where a game can be loaded and saved....

While I agree with what the others have said. I just wonder, how would you propose an action point turn based CRPG like Avernum to become any good for multi-player?

Diablo2 was real time...

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Why even waste thought on it? It's not happening! Now what I want to know is...is how if the game is moved to the Northern Islands, what are you gonna use as ground?

 

You need enough conquered ground to set up some kind of base. I have 4 guesses as to where the starting area is:

1. The old Giants lands.

2. One of the islands.

3. Near Khoths old lair.

4. The ruined fort near Erika's Tower in A4.

 

I'm sure that they won't use the new area as a starting location, but I could be wrong.

[Enalya]

Theres going to be an Avernum 5?!

*falls over, twitching in pure glee*

[Randomizer]

Avernum 5 is supposed to be out at the end of 2007 depending upon when Jeff gets around to writing it and how much beta testing it needs. After Avernum 4 there will be a lot of criticism from regulars if they don't like the plot.

[Ephesos]

After Avernum 4, we just expect a bit more, I think... and Jeff has already lain some of our worst fears to rest.

 

Honestly, he can take as long as he wants with it.

[Kelandon]

In the same vein: I get that A4 was made to save Jeff's business. A5 is billed as being better. If it's not, I will definitely be disappointed.

[jamesmcm]

How about no revivals...

I mean absolutely no way of reviving dead party members.. but provide ways of getting additional party members elsewhere like in G3. I think it was too easy to die in A4 and that it wasn't treated seriously enough...

So basically, there should be no revivals but it should be harder to die and there should be mercenaries or something you can hire to get additional party members.

[Alorael at Large]

Permadeath tends not to make for popular games. In the case of Avernum, popular opinion on these boards tended to be that the result of many inconvenient but not expensive deaths was more dealing with reduced parties and less saving and reloading. I certainly know that I'd reload a lot rather than allow any party members to die.

 

In addition to the emotional investment in a party, there's a major investment of time and experience and skill points. If you received new characters at level 1, they'd be virtually unplayable and the game would become impossible. If they were at your current party level, it wouldn't be much of a problem after all, but it would be an irritating waste of time to have to remake your lost party member. Getting a new party member at a slightly lower level would still be irritating, still waste time, and still not have any real benefit.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the number of people who play Avernum in order to work through all the dire suffering that can be inflicted upon the party are few and far between. In fact, he can now think of only three.

[*i]

Again, we have a case of realism versus gameplay. Permanent death is generally avoided to favor the latter.

[Enalya]

Quote:

Originally written by jamesmcm:
How about no revivals...
I mean absolutely no way of reviving dead party members

Ack...you cant say that...I get very attatched to my party members (dont ask why, cause even I dont know) and having to leave one dead? No way.

[moonear]

No revivals?

 

How about no resaves. The game automatically saves at certain points and only allows you to reload from that point forward. Why? To prevent people from "cheating" the game.

 

It's a game, meant to be played for personal enjoyment. That's why the editors are fun to use, experimenting with different things and messing around. If you choose to play without re-animation good on you but the reality of gameplay is that many people do not prefer that system. As a commercial product one doesn't want to limit the audience - at the same time as staying true to one's integrity as a designer/artist.

 

For me it's a little like having to eat food/rest. This did little for me in terms of game play except to cause me annoying pauses in gameplay. The only time it was useful was when I was going through a dungeon and part of the difficulty/complexity lay in completing it without being able to re-energize. This meant being careful in battle and judicious use of potions/spellpoints. If that wasn't relevant then the need to rest become academic.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Trolling for Karma:
No revivals?

How about no resaves. The game automatically saves at certain points and only allows you to reload from that point forward. Why? To prevent people from "cheating" the game.

I'm sure you're being sarcastic, but do keep in mind that many people here play roguelikes, where you can't reload at all if you die.

[Sudanna]

The return of death by petrification. The A4 "Freeze" effect was annoying, but nowhere near as deadly.

[Alorael at Large]

Roguelikes and Avernum are really not alike at all. I love my Angband, but I wouldn't want to play Avernum Angband-style.

 

—Alorael, who thinks some of that is the party aspect. Angband has very all or nothing death. It's no fun to be killed by that off-screen drolem, but you can roll a new character immediately. In Avernum you'd be stuck with the painful decision of what to do with a crippled party missing half its members but still technically playable.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by The Absolute Value of Nalyd is Zero:
The return of death by petrification. The A4 "Freeze" effect was annoying, but nowhere near as deadly.

Agreed. Freezing is just annoying... petrification was a death I could get behind.

[Alorael at Large]

Petrification seemed arbitrary and overpowered. Freezing wasn't an automatic death sentence, which made it a much more interesting threat. The character is still pretty much out of the fight until you either fix the problem or allow monsters to do their chompy-stabby-burny thing.

 

—Alorael, who is thinking of the ToM ruins demon here. Having to go through a battle short a character or two is traumatic, but it's even more fun when you can hold onto the hope that those characters will be available later if you can just keep those horrible things from gnawing their essential bits off.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Allegant:
Petrification seemed arbitrary and overpowered.

If you can prepare for it, it's not that bad. Casting Radiant Shield, wearing a Crystal Necklace, and having high Luck all help you survive petrification. Couple that with a high magic resistance, and the petrification gaze becomes pretty useless. Which ends up benefiting you in the end, because the basilisk would keep firing it at you, wasting it's turns.

[Lilith]

An all-or-nothing effect that's more likely to be "nothing" than "all" is still an all-or-nothing effect.

[Nioca]

I still find it preferable to the Dumbfounding drain ray that Gazers used to fire. That was just cruel.

[Randomizer]

Mung demons did the same thing as gazers in some games. I used to send my spellcasters in retreat since they can heal, bless, and haste at any distance.

 

Being able to raise dead characters should have a financial cost so you have to choose between raising a dead party member or reloading and replaying a difficult fight.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Being able to raise dead characters should have a financial cost so you have to choose between raising a dead party member or reloading and replaying a difficult fight.

That's hardly a decision. Reloading is the obvious way to go.

[Andraste]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Mung demons did the same thing as gazers in some games. I used to send my spellcasters in retreat since they can heal, bless, and haste at any distance.

This is why I always invested at least one skill point in Priest spells. Not only did it distract the Gazers, but they could also heal themselves if needed.

[jamesmcm]

Okay, maybe we should have revivals but make the consequences greater, i just really hated it in A4 when i hit the cave slimes, died, went back to priest, killed another, died, went back to priest, and so on until they're all dead... it just makes for boring, unrealistic gameplay...

 

In my opinion, it should be harder to die but with greater consequences...

 

However don't reduce experience as i hate games that affect Exp when you die...

 

Also, thinking about it, the idea of having recruitable heroes was pretty stupid.. i like just having my 4 tough guys

[jamesmcm]

Oh, and another thing is the world map...

I want the part/world map like in A1-3 as it meant you could always get money/equip and made it sustainable rather than running out of enemies. The removal of this was a shame in A4. Oh and also don't make it real-time like Geneforge, because it makes it less strategic.

[Alorael at Large]

Please don't double post. Edit in whatever you have to add.

 

I agree about the map, but mostly because the world felt strangely small with no outdoors mode. I also agree about all turn-based, but again just because I don't like playing click-hunt on rapidly moving targets.

 

—Alorael, who is pretty sure that the penalty for losing a party member is having to go back to town to heal, thus wasting your time. There's plenty of incentive to stop getting killed by those slimes.

[moonear]

Quote:

Okay, maybe we should have revivals but make the consequences greater, i just really hated it in A4 when i hit the cave slimes, died, went back to priest, killed another, died, went back to priest, and so on until they're all dead... it just makes for boring, unrealistic gameplay...

Perhaps try playing to avoid having to use revival. And, if you do die simply REFUSE to revive your lost member.

FOcus on your strategy, why are YOU having to use revive so often. Are you simply hacking as many monsters as you can until you lose a party member, or are you looking for a strategy which will allow you to win the battle without a lost member? Hmmm...

Edit: Crypto, I wasn't being sarcastic, but re-reading my post I wasn't being clear. My point was to rationalize the options, controlling gameplay from the designer (roguelike) by limiting when and how to restart or by turning that aspect over to the player's control. And then offering some justification about why you might choose option B. Of course, both game types tend to have partial solutions built into them to deal with the potentially catastrophic loss of a character - but I perefer games that let me control when and how I deal with such events.

[Sudanna]

Another thing - Use a different portal system. The double teleport that the pylons used was annoying, especially on slower computers.

[Slawbug]

The problem you experienced with the cave slimes was not a revival problem, it was a monster problem. Those cave slimes SUCKED. They were boring, but also numerous and somewhat difficult. At least there weren't map twenty sections of them like with the chitrachs, but they were definitely not one of the highlights of A4. Every time I hit one and it spawned multiple new slimes, I sighed.

 

And here, here about that stupid portal. I don't think I would have minded clicking twice by itself, but it was click, load, click, load -- forcing me to alternate paying attention and waiting in a very irritating pattern.

[Micawber]

The teleportation system in A4 was still a big improvement over A2 and A3 for convenience.

[Universe]

Quote:

Originally written by Micawber.:
The teleportation system in A4 was still a big improvement over A2 and A3 for convenience.

Agreed but it was still annoying.

[Kelandon]

I didn't like the teleportation system. I would've preferred real outdoors.

[Dintiradan]

Yeah, I'm curious why JV didn't put the multiple destination option on every pylon instead of just the Grand Central Station one. The IC explaination of how the pylons work would have to be altered, but other than that it would just be a scripting thing as far as I can tell.

 

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[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
I didn't like the teleportation system. I would've preferred real outdoors.

Seconded. And those cave slimes were just annoying... waste of precious spell points. That said, they made combat more interesting, though perhaps it wasn't a good interesting.

[Sudanna]

Oh, and the return of the Farsight spell. Maybe as an ability instead of a spell, though. It always seemed like it should be harder.

[Kelandon]

Without secret passages, there's not much point to the Far Sight spell.

 

Not that I ever used it to begin with, but still.

[moonear]

I too missed the outdoors. Wandering around as a lonely pixel on a screen of tiny symbols. MAde you feel that avernum was a really big cave, the caverns were something to behold. And it was different. Now the game has too much of the "sameness" feel, the outdoors and the villages are too similar in how you explore them and discover Avernum.

[jamesmcm]

Bring back secret passages.

Bring back A1 revival system.

Bring back world/party map.

Make Vahnati a playable race.

Keep A4 movement system, instead of tile-by-tile when in towns.

Quicksave/Quickload.

Remove cave slimes.

 

Will add more as i think of them...

[Micawber]

Well in Avernum 4, we already have Quicksave/Quickload (F3/F4), and Jeff has already stated he doesn't want the Vahnatai to lose their alien-ness, so he won't make them a playable race.

 

The cave slimes aren't so bad. I just don't want to see any more chitrach infestations.