Avernum 5 Early, Early Notes

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
I think simplicity is a virtue with the spell library. Although I would like to see a greater number of scripted monster special spells.

Seconded. There's no reason for aranea to cast the same spells as people... and as Lenar said, über-powerful mages/priests should have different spells to which mere adventurers can't devote enough time to learn. A4 had some good examples of this, like Nociduas' infamous demon-summoning (finally, good summoning!) and even the fear wand on the leader of the Loyalists (despite how much of a cop-out it was).

And let's not forget X's anvil spell.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Ephesos:

 

Quote:

There's no reason for aranea to cast the same spells as people...

Or the vahnatai. They're always described as having spells too complicated for other races (or at least the adventurers of other races) to learn, so it would be nice for them to cast those spells once in a while.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Ash Lael]

Quote:

Originally written by Lenar Labs:
No wall bumping =

FYT.

[Randomizer]

The difference between Exile and Avernum is the greater spell lists and the ease for adding new ones. Avernum requires removing a spell to make room for a new one. So we might as well start nominating our least favorites spells again to be voted out.

 

I want to see the end of the mage's call beast and animate undead. You don't get to pick which one is summoned and they are usually fairly lame. Replace arcane blow with shockwave to bring the mage on par with the priest's divine retribution.

[Slawbug]

BOVINE THUD!

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Chitrach Exterminator:
BOVINE THUD!

I keep seeing the catapaulted cow from Monty Python and the Holy Grail unless you mean a gigantic hoof from the sky crushing the non-believers.

[Slawbug]

I picture something more like the rare Fat Chocobo version of the Chocobo call spell in Final Fantasy 5, where a giant fat chocobo bounces onto the screen, causing an earthquake, then bounces off. Except of course, instead of a fat chocobo, you have a cave cow.

[Kelandon]

(insert Canopy special spells jokes here)

[Dikiyoba]

Have the tutorial be an optional section or make an option to turn it off. Getting hit by all the dialog boxes that tell me how to equip my armor and cast spells more than once is unnecessary.

 

Dikiyoba sees Bovine Thud more like X's anvil spell, except with a cave cow falling out of the sky onto people instead of an anvil.

[Slawbug]

Wait a second.

 

Xian Cow.

 

...

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Chitrach Exterminator:
Wait a second.

Xian Cow.

...

Oom! Check out my horns, they're shiny! Oom!

[Randomizer]

Actually if Jeff changes the combat system enough then some dialog boxes will be needed. Still after the first time it would be nice.

 

Bring back starvation and the spell - sticks to steaks.

[nikki.]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
(insert Canopy special spells jokes here)

Brave words from the creator of the spell system in Exodus

[Kelandon]

No, no, because of the summon special spells in Canopy, like Baldev. Oh, never mind.

[Mysterious Man]

WAIT!

 

What about Exile 4?

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

I believe the question everyone wants to know is ...Are Rone, X and I still alive to lend our support to Avernum?

 

I'm pretty sure that it's impossible, but if I'm still here I have a few suggestions!

1. Move me back to the Tower of the Magi. (preferably Administrator)

2. Give me a cat pet to replace Cheeseball. (doesn't need to talk)

3. Let me be able to give some sort of magical training in either spells or special traits.

4. Quests. (enough said)

 

I like how this game sounds already. About the new route... is it

1. In the Northern Waters going north to new caves?

2. On the river near Erika's Tower going west?

3. On the river near Almaria going south?

4. On the river near Silvar and Fort Avernum going east?

 

Quote:

Solberg is nice and all, but he isn't the kind to move mountains.

Hey...what are you trying to say?

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Arch-Mage Solberg:
About the new route... is it
1. In the Northern Waters going north to new caves?
2. On the river near Erika's Tower going west?
3. On the river near Almaria going south?
4. On the river near Silvar and Fort Avernum going east?

"visited in early games but not Avernum 4" rules out 3 and 4, I believe, although I could be wrong about that. My money is on 1, myself, but only because the basis of the would-be Northern Kingdom series was going to be that very location.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:

Quote:

Originally written by Arch-Mage Solberg:
About the new route... is it
1. In the Northern Waters going north to new caves?
2. On the river near Erika's Tower going west?
3. On the river near Almaria going south?
4. On the river near Silvar and Fort Avernum going east?

"visited in early games but not Avernum 4" rules out 3 and 4, I believe, although I could be wrong about that. My money is on 1, myself, but only because the basis of the would-be Northern Kingdom series was going to be that very location.

Your right Kel, I forgot about that rule when I posted!

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Arch-Mage Solberg:

Quote:

Solberg is nice and all, but he isn't the kind to move mountains.

Hey...what are you trying to say?

Solberg is a mage. Move Mountains is a priest spell.

I think any of the four would work, except the river that runs past Almaria. I seem to recall that it falls into a giant pit.

[Randomizer]

Since all of the games that started in Avernum were in the northeast it will probably be the river near Fort Avernum, near Formello, or Fort Draco, The Formello river is closest to the Vahnatai area.

 

I hope Solberg gets a bigger role than Avernum 4. Also X should have more than the one quest.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
I hope Solberg gets a bigger role than Avernum 4.

Don't you just feel the love!

[Duskwolf]

While we're speculating on new locations: How about the river blockage to the west of the Mass Teleporter, in the Northern Waters? That looks like a prime candidate for a bit of opening up.

 

Alternatively, east of Silvar and/or Formello?

[VCH]

North-West Corner MOS DEF. It does seem to fit the clues.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Duskwolf:
How about the river blockage to the west of the Mass Teleporter, in the Northern Waters? That looks like a prime candidate for a bit of opening up.

How about it? That's what everyone else in this thread has said, too.

There are eight locations in Avernum 1 that have rivers leading off the map:

Two north from the Northern Islands:


North from Lost Bahssikava:


North from Fort Draco:


East from Fort Avernum:


South from Almaria:


South from Patrick's Tower:


West from Erika's Tower:


Of those, we definitely visited Northern Avernum (by what was Lost Bahssikava), Fort Draco, Fort Avernum, Almaria, and Patrick's Tower in A4.

That leaves the two north from the Northern Islands and the one west of Erika's Tower. I'm not sure that there's any reason to prefer one or the other here.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I can't imagine Avernum going for the one by Erika's tower. Not only would you have to go through the Abyss to get there by that whole area is almost... I don't know... Avernite taboo. Then again, it is less remote than the Northern Islands.

 

Really, it would make the most sense to just follow one of the Great Cave rivers, since that is the most populated area and near the capital. But I guess that's been ruled out. Too bad.

[Alorael at Large]

It's all a matter of which tower we visit, Aydin's or Erika's. I'd be excited to see either one.

 

—Alorael, who would like to know what happened to Aydin. Most of the powerful mages from earlier Avernums are explained in A4, but Aydin has only an answering machine in A2 and nothing after that.

[Ephesos]

Aydin? Do you mean Aimee?

[Kelandon]

Both. Aimee was in the east, and Aydin was in the west.

 

But Aimee didn't have a tower, I think, and she may have been mentioned in a later Avernum and therefore is accounted for.

[Drakefyre]

Aimee leaves something for you in Avernum 2 and gets some mentions, but doesn't appear after A1.

[Alorael at Large]

I was confusing the two. I remember Aydin's Tower, but I also have a false memory of talking to Aimee there and then getting her message and gift in A2 there.

 

—Alorael, who now can't remember if Aydin ever reappears or gets any recognition. An A2 mention would be logical, at least.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Aydin's Tower was in the west part of the Northern Islands, Aimee's was in the east. Aimee's tower wasn't a town you could enter, just a special. Aydin's tower was COMPLETELY destroyed when the Empire invaded and Aimee's was demolished to make way for the Hall of Records. Both Aydin and Aimee are present or mentioned in A2 but not after.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Alorael:

 

Quote:

—Alorael, who now can't remember if Aydin ever reappears or gets any recognition. An A2 mention would be logical, at least.

In A2, he and Josie are imprisoned in the Empire Archives.

 

Dikiyoba thinks that learning the fate of these mages is a good reason to vote for A5's new setting to be in the Northern Islands area.

 

Edit: Typo.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

I had this thought some time ago, but it wasn't until I went through my notes recently that I now bring it up. Now bear with me.

 

With a space as big as the surface, who's to say that there was only ONE PORTAL! They gathered all the people to be sent down all into one portal? That's nonsense! There must've been at least 2 per continent, AT LEAST. With that in mind, could there be other places people were sent? Places inhabited that we have not seen or heard about?

 

What do y'all think about this in relation to the upcoming Avernum 5?

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Arch-Mage Solberg:
With a space as big as the surface, who's to say that there was only ONE PORTAL! They gathered all the people to be sent down all into one portal? That's nonsense! There must've been at least 2 per continent, AT LEAST. With that in mind, could there be other places people were sent? Places inhabited that we have not seen or heard about?

What do y'all think about this in relation to the upcoming Avernum 5?

Actually, they would probably only need three, if that was the case. I don't think Valorim would have had a portal yet, since it was only just settled in the time frame of A3, and the teleporting stopped shortly after A1.

However, it's a definite possibility.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Quote:

Originally written by Nioca:

Quote:

Originally written by Arch-Mage Solberg:
With a space as big as the surface, who's to say that there was only ONE PORTAL! They gathered all the people to be sent down all into one portal? That's nonsense! There must've been at least 2 per continent, AT LEAST. With that in mind, could there be other places people were sent? Places inhabited that we have not seen or heard about?

What do y'all think about this in relation to the upcoming Avernum 5?

Actually, they would probably only need three, if that was the case. I don't think Valorim would have had a portal yet, since it was only just settled in the time frame of A3, and the teleporting stopped shortly after A1.

However, it's a definite possibility.

Valorim was probably settled near the time the portals were shut down. I do agree with you on the number of portals though! That would make two portals going to other places than the Avernum as we know it.

[Alorael at Large]

I find the whole "wild frontier" aspect of Valorim overdone. It's got large cities and plenty of towns. It has roads everywhere. It has ancient ruins! I think people have been there for a century at least, and there's definitely no way everything from Delis to Blackcrag could have been settled in the few years between the Empire War and A3.

 

I agree that there must have been many portals into Avernum, but they probably all dumped into the same terminus. Finding more than one exit would take more work, not less, and the Empire isn't keen on the comfort of its rejects.

 

—Alorael, who now can't remember what, if anything, came of the various mentions of the nephilim having a separate portal into Avernum in A1. This is just his day for not remembering.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by High on HEX:
I find the whole "wild frontier" aspect of Valorim overdone. It's got large cities and plenty of towns. It has roads everywhere. It has ancient ruins! I think people have been there for a century at least, and there's definitely no way everything from Delis to Blackcrag could have been settled in the few years between the Empire War and A3.

Alorael, this is the Empire you're talking about here. Besides, the portals were shut down before the Empire War. Also, I'm not sure if you noticed the lack of grand citadels and fortresses. Blackcrag had nothing on The Castle. Finally, how long did it take them to build a gigantic, nearly impenetrable wall around most of Footracer? A month? If they can pull that type of feat off on fairly short notice, I think they had the capability to settle Valorim in a fairly short timespan. Don't forget, there were only a few cities that could be considered major in Valorim. Most of them were small villages or trading posts.

[VCH]

Quote:

Originally written by High on HEX:
I find the whole "wild frontier" aspect of Valorim overdone. It's got large cities and plenty of towns. It has roads everywhere. It has ancient ruins! I think people have been there for a century at least, and there's definitely no way everything from Delis to Blackcrag could have been settled in the few years between the Empire War and A3.

I agree that there must have been many portals into Avernum, but they probably all dumped into the same terminus. Finding more than one exit would take more work, not less, and the Empire isn't keen on the comfort of its rejects.

—Alorael, who now can't remember what, if anything, came of the various mentions of the nephilim having a separate portal into Avernum in A1. This is just his day for not remembering.

Ah, yes the cute little kitties. I do remember something about them having a portal.

[Randomizer]

Actually with the power requirements to reach that far underground their were only two portals. The prisoner one to Fort Avernum and the military one that led to the base near the Abyss. Now surface portals between the continents were probably more common and not just by Ernest. However because of the military applications to transport armies they were probably kept under wraps.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

I meant what I said to be thought in relation to the upcoming release of A5! Let's just say that there are two portals carrying people to the caves. The FIVE get sent down one portal and help maintain order, while the other one gets noone and everyone ends up being like bandits (like the Cult of the Sacred Item). It would be like Avernum but in reverse. In Avernum, the good live in cities and towns while in the bandits hide. In the other place the bandits rule and the good are hiding!

[Kelandon]

For some reason, the idea that Valorim was considered settled with the defeat of the Ratbane clan.

 

Aha: "You find an interesting book: The Early History of Valorim, Vol. 1, by Zaft. When the Empire turned its mighty eye to the continent of Valorim, it was settled only by fierce, mindless nephilim and similar monsters. The tale of the Empire's taming of this savage continent is a long and exciting one! The first settlement in Valorim was Blackcrag Fortress, a mighty fortress at the north end. The early building of this fort, which provided a safe place for settlers and a supply depot, was the key to the destruction of the nephilim tribes. From this stronghold, settlers were able to establish the Keep of Tinraya, the largest and mightiest city in Valorim. The Keep's mighty walls and limited access makes it the Empire city safest from attack. From the Keep, lightning raids by Empire Dervishes were able to devastate the mighty Ratbane clan of nephilim. This cleared the way to the founding of Gale and Lorelei. The tale of the taming of the southern half of the continent will follow in Volume 2, coming soon."

 

This tell us nothing about when it happened, though. But we know that Valorim already had a fair number of cities for a while before it was considered "settled."

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Actually with the power requirements to reach that far underground their were only two portals. The prisoner one to Fort Avernum and the military one that led to the base near the Abyss.

Those are two exits (plus one more for the nephilim), but who knows how many entrances there are? On the other hand, there may be one big central portal down to Fort Avernum with many smaller portals from all over the Empire that go send prisoners to the banishment portal.

There was a two year gap between the portal's closing and the Empire War and then 12 more years until A3. That's not enough time to settle Valorim! The Empire might use magic to build its major forts, but I think even province capitals are likely to be plain old stone. There's no indication that the construction is unusual in the games, and there's no uniform style (Lorelei stands out!) to indicate a common origin. Even Krizsan, presumably the last city to be setled because of its location, is fairly large and bustling. Even with magical help, it would take decades for settlement to reach that far south unless every town started with only one family.

—Alorael, who checked the Encyclopedia Ermariana and discovered that Valorim is home to about 10 million humans, most of whom are second and third generation settlers. That indicates somewhere between 50 and 75 years of settlement, and to him personally it reinforces his lack of faith in the EE.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Alorael:
There was a two year gap between the portal's closing and the Empire War and then 12 more years until A3. That's not enough time to settle Valorim!

Why not? Avernum was settled in approximately 10 years (767 IE for the first people, 777 IE when Avernum was established), and it's probably only slightly smaller than Valorim.

Quote:

More by Alorael:
The Empire might use magic to build its major forts, but I think even province capitals are likely to be plain old stone. There's no indication that the construction is unusual in the games, and there's no uniform style (Lorelei stands out!) to indicate a common origin. Even Krizsan, presumably the last city to be setled because of its location, is fairly large and bustling. Even with magical help, it would take decades for settlement to reach that far south unless every town started with only one family.

How is that so unfeasible? There's a good chance that multiple expeditions were made to Valorim. Otherwise, even if they were settled for 75 years, there's probably a low chance that it would be at it's level of development that is present in A3.

Quote:

Alorael's Gimmick:
—Alorael, who checked the Encyclopedia Ermariana and discovered that Valorim is home to about 10 million humans, most of whom are second and third generation settlers. That indicates somewhere between 50 and 75 years of settlement, and to him personally it reinforces his lack of faith in the EE.

Either that, or the Valorim settlers breed like erotomaniac bunnies.

[Slawbug]

It is stated in the game in various places that Southern Valorim (a.k.a. Krizsan) was settled fairly recently. I don't have the references here. I settled on approximately 813 for the EE timeline date, and I know I relied purely on solid canon for that number.

 

One of the amusing things about that is that it means Silvar in Exile was founded earlier than Silvar in Krizsan Province.

 

"Why not? Avernum was settled in approximately 10 years (767 IE for the first people, 777 IE when Avernum was established), and it's probably only slightly smaller than Valorim."

 

Um, Avernum was not SETTLED in ten years. The date the Kingdom was founded probably has more to do with either rallying Avernite troops to fight, or the effects of early military victories against Grah-Hoth and the sliths.

[moonear]

Kel:

 

Quote:

Wow. I'm actually excited about Spidweb games again. I was mostly sticking around for BoA, but GF4 has gotten such good comments on the boards, and Nethergate 2.0 sounds like enough of a good thing, and A5 sounds so promising, that I'm genuinely looking forward to playing these games. It was getting kinda depressing in there around GF3 and A4, but I like the way things are turning now.

You know, I've never actually played any of the GF games. Perhaps I should. I did do the Nethergate demo, but didn't buy the game (and regretted it enuf to almost do so, but now I will wait for the new version). Yaa for BoA.

[Alorael at Large]

Avernum is much smaller than Valorim, much less densely settled, and much more wildernessy. And since Avernum-Silvar is supposedly named after surface Silvar, I think the timeline can once again be put down to Jeff not thinking too hard about it.

 

—Alorael, who can live with loose timelines. It makes the EE a little messier, though.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by High on HEX:
And since Avernum-Silvar is supposedly named after surface Silvar, I think the timeline can once again be put down to Jeff not thinking too hard about it.

Do we actually know that for a fact? The passage I recall about that was just the party speculating about the possibility. It's possible they're both named after some famous person or something.

[Student of Trinity]

Long John Silvarrr!

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Or there's a Silvar on another continent and both of the ones mentioned were named by people from the other Silvar!

[Slawbug]

The only line connecting the Silvars in the games is this one:

 

"You enter the village of Silvar. Coincidentally, Silvar is the name of one of the largest cities in Exile. Who knows? Perhaps it was founded by a homesick person from here."

 

The timeline is fairly solid on these points, so I think it is safe to conclude that Silvar the Avernite city was not named after Silvar the surface village.