Thaeris

Thanks for following up on this one!

I'd say what such a response leads me to ask is what Jeff himself might think of the origin of the Vahnatai. I certainly wouldn't expect an answer, but if the Vahnatai needed to at least tweak the cave biomes to make life possible (with the glowing fungus in question), it seems likely that they have their origins elsewhere. Perhaps they're not even from Ermarian, and you can cue the science fiction bells as you like with that one. 😛

...What might be worth interjecting here is the matter of the Slith. The Slith, from all available information, are most definitely from the caves. Both they and the Vahnatai have well-developed eyes, so light was always a factor for the deep-dwellers which we know of on Ermarian. I'd argue this again asserts that there was always a source of light down there.

Slarty, just curious:

Is there any specific canon that states the Vahnatai created the glowing fungus?

That specific lore might have been lost on me after (a.) not playing all of the games to completion as well as (b.) my own take on the story. With the latter - and based on the former - there seems to be a constant that magic wielded by mortals does not create new life, but rather just modifies what already exists. Conveniently this jives pretty well with the real world as well.

I will never be sold on the "we or "they" created the glowing fungus line. Improving it? Sure. Created it? Probably not.

There are a variety of forces at work as a planet goes through its orbit and rotations. I am not an expert on this field, and will not pretend to be one, either. But I have wondered about the fungus brightening and dimming due to the facing of the planet, or even as the seasons progress, the axial tilt might do something, etc. It's a charming concept at the very least, while also leaving some room in there for some quality science fiction relating to biology. How well one can perceive what might be going on with the natural cycles as interpreted by the local fauna is a different matter, of course.

As per clocks and mechanisms, I'd say that one could make fairly respectable clocks given the apparent technological capabilities of the Avernites. They might not be great, but I think it could be done. They'd be a feature of the richer towns for sure. Formello would be a great candidate, all posh and all that.

Finally, the great elephant in the room which explains everything that we don't do a dissertation on is magic. Wizards do their scrying and make their impossible contraptions to capture their feats. Magic is an overused trope for sure, but unless one really takes a deep dive to flesh out what happens, or should happen in the setting, magic is the duct tape that holds the story together. Fortunately, Jeff seems to like science fiction quite a lot, so magic is not always a required explanation.

Veterans of the Empire's conflicts in the caverns (and they are present in the setting) would have known of the Sliths more likely than not.

...That the region is in such a terrible state of affairs means that the plot point of them not caring can be forced to work. If you want to do your own RP'ing, don't take a Slith character with you on your first encounter. That said - because I do not recall - is there a hireable Slith in Upper Avernum which you could activate at your disposal?

Watched this, and thought it might be a good addendum to the previous question-to-self on the matter of caves forming via flooding and erosion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNvfJYPYO60

...If you might be curious about a description of a flooding cave, you have to look no further and just listen to what can happen. Furthermore, it is also a good recounting of what can happen to someone not prepared for the environment they're in. Rough stuff, for sure!

Huh - to me, what you say is odd. I had the BoE demo back in the day, and I recall all of the spears being two-handed. In old-school Nethergate, all of the spears were two-handed. In (original) Avernum, they changed to one-handed weapons.

...Therefore, I find it interesting that Exile had one- and two-handed versions of spears. So, just so I know, how do the stats differ between the one- and two-handed weapons?

That said, I do wish more games were a bit more "dynamic" when it came to weapons use. In Mount & Blade, weapons handle differently when used with two hands as opposed to one (and are pretty much always better for it). Having less protection (no shield) is the obvious trade-off. Weapons that get better in real life when used with two hands as opposed to one are generally spears and longswords (in the HEMA and German sense - swords which you could use in one hand but are meant to be used in two). I suppose Jeff did simulate this in a way by incurring a to-hit penalty when using heavier and heavier shields. However, I'm not sure swords or spears get all that much of a boost when opting to not use a shield - perhaps I'd have to try that concept out some time to see for myself?

The next games that come to mind are the Baldur's Gate games, where... let's just call them hand-and-a-half swords so some language filter doesn't come in and flag me for something unwarranted... are only treated as one-handed swords. There really should be a boost to speed, precision, and power when using one of those swords with two hands! Likewise, true one-handed weapons might benefit by some margin if you can get a second hand on them by some means, but they're designed to be used in one hand and generally don't need much help from the second. In that regard, the games are probably doing just fine with those matters and have been for some time.

...That said, my nerdy martial arts musings have caused a rant! But, I do find it an interesting discussion regardless.

So, I watched this with the family the other day and was really pleased with it. It is the documentary, "The Real Lost World," which is about the Roraima plateau in Venezuela. The whole thing is a great watch, but the caves are the items of interest when it comes to an Avernum / Exile conversation. You can check out the link below to see said caves (barring any YouTube shenanigans), or you can scroll to the start of the video to watch the whole thing:

https://youtu.be/Gzi_Wh-l1I4?t=4204

Some thoughts:

1. Most natural caves seem to be the result of erosion. Thinking about the kind of erosion that could keep forming caves deep underground in Exile is a bit creepy - what might incur something like a flash flood deep below the ground? An aquifer fissure, or something else? Might make for a very tense scenario for the writers out there.

2. I've tried to discuss animal life - insects in this case - in caves in some of my other threads - this documentary has just that! Scary crickets are scary...

3. Microbial life must be the primary contributor to the ecology of Exile. Actually, it is one of the primary contributors to life on Earth - much of the oxygen production comes from ocean algae, though according to NOAA, marine life uses the bulk of it:

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/ocean-oxygen.html

...Perhaps one of the most important things to consider is that some forms of life might be a bit different in Exile as opposed to the world we know. Consider the "fungus plants," which in my view always existed in the underworld (see the Vahnatai, etc.) - they were simply adapted to better suit the humans that came in with the formation of the Kingdom of Avernum. Most fungi as we know them consume oxygen rather than producing it. However, perhaps a more plant-like fungus inhabits that region after the conceptualized extended dark zone mentioned once more in the previous post. OR, perhaps that fungus just tends work very closely with the bacteria that interact in creating a complex environment in which a variety of creatures can survive, if not thrive. Considering fungus, this was a good short and sweet educational article:

https://organismalbio.biosci.gatech.edu/biodiversity/fungi-2/

On 3/15/2022 at 12:26 PM, Randomizer said:

Some Eschalon game might not run on newer Apple computers.

The first one is free to download, and unfortunately it's going to take a lot of effort to get it to run on my Linux machine. I don't have the time set out to tinker with software these days, so that's a bummer. The game seems very "Spider-webery" from watching a bit of a Let's Play. All things considered, it's quite disappointing as the game looks like a lot of fun to play.

Nope, don't do Steam. My Discord dialogues are supposed to be conversation pieces and not in-depth discussions, although they very easily turn into just that. That said, I am really happy that these boards still are in the old-school forum format, as it makes having technical conversations easy and very doable from the best typewriter of all, the personal computer!

The principal other board(s) I'm referring to are the Codex Integrum / Martialis boards, which are centered around traditional RPGs using Jean Chandler's dice pool rules. I've not done anything directly related to Avernum on the new Codex boards, but I did have a thread about this very subject on the old board:

https://codex.masterplanfoundation.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3075&sid=64a136a7015c52bbe6bcc5b29de2c3ae

...I have no idea how much longer that board might exist easily on the net, so someone finding this thread several years later might be at a disappointment. Furthermore, some of the links I posted over there are no longer easily accessible (probably would need the Wayback Machine for some of them). The referenced article from "The Boresight," which is an aviation blog, can be found below. Unfortunately, all of the referenced video footage (ANNA News) has been purged by YouTube. It seems the Empire is doing well with its censorship campaign, unfortunately:

https://theboresight.blogspot.com/2016/12/end-game-syrian-war-final-phase.html

...If you read the description of the man-made caves on the old Codex board, you'll get the gist of what I was seeing in the videos, however. Furthermore, if you consider a lot of the dungeons Jeff made in Avernum, complete with the transition from rough-hewn tunnels to finished tunnels, right-angle passages (which isometric games excel at), etc, a lot of those details were seen in the real world in the Syrian tunnels. Complete with heaps of garbage! So, it's confirmed that ISIS are/were in fact goblins. Who knew?!?

The other details I was really interested in were rock strata and biology. Regarding the latter - finding some of my old posts might be more convenient in that case (and fortunately there aren't thousands of them) - I think conventional biology is absolutely viable in Jeff's worlds (science fiction angle FTW!). However, it takes some additional factors to make it work. The post I'm focusing on in this case is the following:

https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26054-a-few-lore-questions/#comment-313122

Quote

The note on the Nephils in the caves at the time of the first expedition is interesting, and it ties into some of my other musings in the Cave Fauna thread (Original Avernum Series Board). I get the impression that the caves were always hard to get into, but they were never cut off from the surface until there was an active push to do so. So, various groups (like people, even) could go down there if they were so inclined. I like to imagine that the uppermost caves on Ermarian are not unlike caves on Earth, and follow the same general "zone" patterns and life cycle patterns as we are familiar with. Crossing an extended "dark zone" would be dangerous and quite challenging, but it would certainly be possible. Eventually crossing into what could be considered Exile would probably be quite a surprise - suddenly, there's somehow some semblance of light (I don't buy into the "Exile used to be dark before people" bit), and there seems to be this transition from no light and life to just the opposite. Think of it like reversing the cave zones - kinda - after a really long and treacherous walk:

 

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/biology-fields/cave-biology2.htm

 

...So, if there were Nephil down in Exile during the time of the First Expedition, they or their ancestors would have had a good reason to make that trek: the Empire was certainly busy killing them off at that time. That concept alone would make for a great story: the Nephil tribe that risked everything fleeing into an endless cavern or face extermination at the hands of the Empire.

In short, your near-surface caves will follow the pattern of lit/entrance zones, twilight zones, and then dark zones. Here, conventional cave biology is valid. Then take the idea of the extended dark zone, and then due to different forms of life in Jeff's settings, you might eventually find that new twilight zone deep down where Exile begins. There's always a space for magic in all of this, but it becomes so much more intriguing when you pump up the science fiction!

...In any sense, that was the "other board" of note in this matter... though I also fell back to this one as well, I suppose.

I am interested to hear that Pueblo architecture also piqued your interest... might need to go back and determine if Andrew Hunter used any of that in his narrative illustrations for Av1 or Av2, though angular buildings are, not surprisingly, fairly universal in human architecture! Huh...

...I think the bigger challenge is making the ultra-stylized fortifications and walls in the original Avernum artwork make sense. Stylized stonework is nothing new, but would you in fact only see stuff like that at The Castle, or maybe a "ritzy town" like Formello? And then, for the places in-between, would you tend to see more conventional architecture, such as in the style suggested in the original Exile games or the remake Avernum games? I think that's my main point of focus architecture-wise. For instance, I recall making a doodle back when I was in college than was of Fort Duvno - it had rather simple "conventional walls," and then the "main tower" was built out into the lake, and some of the architecture there started to look a bit more stylized. If I can find that doodle someday, perhaps I will have to revisit it!

So, I've had some posts on the topic name above in other boards - not sure I've ever brought them over here yet. So, why not begin?!?

It can be an interesting mental exercise to go back and forth between the Avernum and Exile games' artwork to try and establish one's preferred visual representation for the setting. It can be equally interesting to source things from the real world when doing this as well. Bringing some "science" into the fiction is what makes it stick, and I feel Jeff did this a lot, and I really appreciated it when I saw it in the games.

That said, I want to start out with the following video - I found it after looking for some cutlery stuff (people who like adventure games are into sharp things? Who knew!). It's a ruin in the American Southwest, and it just seems that similar architecture and stonework would be found in Avernum. Really cool stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQrHTrI_0k4

...Just might be worth contemplating next time you go on an imaginary adventure to the world below!

Another random thought for the writer, daydreamer, and anyone else who contemplates Avernum:

BIRDS IN THE CAVES

...I'm curious about thoughts on this. Mammals (rats and bats, and also cats!), bugs, and lizards seem to do well enough in the underworld of Ermarian. The former were either always there or managed to make the trek into the lands below - I like my thoughts on this manner from a different post I made some time ago:

Quote

The note on the Nephils in the caves at the time of the first expedition is interesting, and it ties into some of my other musings in the Cave Fauna thread (Original Avernum Series Board). I get the impression that the caves were always hard to get into, but they were never cut off from the surface until there was an active push to do so. So, various groups (like people, even) could go down there if they were so inclined. I like to imagine that the uppermost caves on Ermarian are not unlike caves on Earth, and follow the same general "zone" patterns and life cycle patterns as we are familiar with. Crossing an extended "dark zone" would be dangerous and quite challenging, but it would certainly be possible. Eventually crossing into what could be considered Exile would probably be quite a surprise - suddenly, there's somehow some semblance of light (I don't buy into the "Exile used to be dark before people" bit), and there seems to be this transition from no light and life to just the opposite. Think of it like reversing the cave zones - kinda - after a really long and treacherous walk:

 

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/biology-fields/cave-biology2.htm

 

...So, if there were Nephil down in Exile during the time of the First Expedition, they or their ancestors would have had a good reason to make that trek: the Empire was certainly busy killing them off at that time. That concept alone would make for a great story: the Nephil tribe that risked everything fleeing into an endless cavern or face extermination at the hands of the Empire.

 

Other creatures would have also been able to make that journey if you take to that idea: bats, rats, goblins, etc. However, there is also something to the idea of the Empire sending down pests... just to make the Avernites all the more miserable (with the sick twist of potentially also keeping them fed).

Source: https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26054-a-few-lore-questions/?tab=comments#comment-313122

...In the case of birds, I imagine several species would do just fine. Unlike rats, bats, or perhaps goblins, birds would definitely have to be sent down to the caves intentionally, much in the same way cows would be sent into the caves. The only exceptions to this might be in Upper Avernum, where direct access to a cave system might be attainable. I imagine you'd potentially end up with "cave sparrows" or "cave swallows," especially the latter if you want to borrow from the likes of Dwarf Fortress. Otherwise, a deep cave just doesn't seem to be the habitat where a bird would venture in further... but then, I'm not an ornithologist.

Cave owls would be a natural choice to consider for cave fauna, but much like my questions about huge bugs... they are probably more in line with the written, literary part of the adventure rather than the part one interacts with. Unless the bugs are attacking the player, they tend to be something which could be there, but they have to be written about in dialogue for any acknowledgement of them to be made. I presume the same thing of birds.

You know, if there's going to be a great speculative lore derailment here, I want in! I made this comment in another thread some time ago:

Quote

As an interesting aside regarding martial culture and the Sliths, consider again the spear as a utilitarian weapon. We know the Sliths enjoy fish and are good swimmers. Slith spears, on that note, are rather comparable in design to fishing spears. It's possible this was an active design decision by Jeff, though Jeff might offer up that he in turn borrowed the idea from somewhere else. The latter is fine and happens in fantasy all the time, but regardless of the origins of that design decision, it kinda works out - and, if you take to that idea, it says a lot about the Sliths (and it's not bad, either!).

Source: https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/26054-a-few-lore-questions/?tab=comments#comment-313122

In terms of real weapons, there are variations all the time. There tends to be things within the center of the bell curve, and then there are outliers which are so out-there that some might have a hard time believing that they could have existed at all. Like, you know, that Slith trident, for example! I like reading about the flavor and variety added to the game, as it brings it that much closer to reality, as fantastic as the game itself might be.

Heh - I'm chuckling at the OP's opening comments. They remind me of the good-old-days of the internets, and it makes me smile.

...With regards to said comments, the first thing that comes to mind is the Vahnatai swordsmith in Olgai. He certainly reflects those "cultural superiority" sentiments that have either been ascribed by the Japanese themselves, or been ascribed by others for them. That he also represents part of the Vahnatai "sword culture" while holding these sentiments makes for quite the double-dose of the phenomena waterstrider is describing.

As those more knowledgeable than I have noted, it's impossible to know if the Vahnatai were supposed to have anything to do with Japan. However, now that it's been mentioned, the Vahnatai definitely fit into the trope of the mysterious land with untrusting people who see little or no reason to accept you as part of their world. Obviously that's not entirely true, but I think what I'm getting at is clear enough. Otherwise, the "mysterious" part encompasses an old and well-tested culture with an arcane knowledge of things which is deeply fascinating. Is the latter superior? One can't say for certain, but because it's something you are kept from having, it draws you in. All of those tropes kind of work for Asia at large, including Japan.

That said, I kind of like your thoughts on the matter, waterstrider. Shoot - the Vahnatai throw shurikens (razordisks) for Pete's sake! Intentional or not, I'd say that the Vahnatai certainly have something in common with contemporary thoughts on Japanese culture from way-back-when (NOT including your grandfather's bad experiences in the war... more like samurai movie stuff). It's a neat connection I never thought to make before!

That's a great point Slarty. Same to you, TriRodent. Just figured it would be worth the mention.

Well, therefore... can I make a formal request?

Is it possible to get an Avernum General Discussion subforum in the General Discussion forum?

I recall a fellow was writing a very long - and pretty well written - fan fiction of a different region of the underworld. That was trapped in the original Avernum boards. A lot of my posts were again, really general. It would be pretty spiffy if there was a more appropriate spot to drop or move that stuff to that could work for everybody, regardless of the particular series of Exile or Avernum they happen to fancy the most. 😀

I have another question - or perhaps just something else to throw in here for the sake of conversation:

If we're musing on what one could make missile weapons into, could range be made into a factor? Again consider javelins - no, they're not quite like a pilum, but anything that big that gets stuck in you will do a lot more than just hurt - they have rather limited range, because they tend to be really heavy. How far you can effectively throw those things would logically be a function of a character's strength, and how accurate they would be should be a function of dexterity and thrown weapon skill, etc. If you're throwing outside of the effective range, the efficacy should drop. And, if you have a minimum range - like being charged while aiming a bow, or something like that (also note that arrows tend to snake a lot at close range), you could have an accuracy penalty, or something like that.

...Not sure how you could do things like this, unless you write a supplement ruleset that would be checked on by the author when writing the scenario.

That is probably the right answer. However, is a man wrong for dreaming? 😄

You know, it's been quite some time since playing Blades, but I don't think I ever noticed that missile weapons were bad! Instead, having the ability to do stand-off damage was always something I felt was needed, and so my parties always had chaps (and chapettes) who could shoot. I suppose I never played enough to notice that the bows and crossbows were so miserable in terms of performance. I guess I learned something here...

...I also want to chime in that I don't have a problem with things having a weight to them. If balance was an issue in general, I'd say the problem was that everything is too heavy to begin with, and next that you can probably carry more weight than you should. Big Renaissance swords don't weigh 20 lbs in real life - 10 lbs would have been heavy for these, and 6 to 8 lbs is more likely in general. Everything in Avernum and Exile is like that - not sure Jeff changed any of those details with the re-remake series. At the same time, packing 30 arrows or bolts would be a lot of ammo to haul around in real life, so if bows or crossbows don't work very well in the game, then the weight of everything should be tweaked such that the weight of all those missiles would be worth it.

Interesting you note javelins and throwing spears. I started another thread not too long ago about pen-and-paper game systems. One of the things I considered for my current project was having certain tags for certain weapons. For instance, one thing a javelin might very well do in real life is render a shield ineffective - consider what Roman pilum were used for. So, if you get an effective hit, it would be really cool if a javelin would reduce the armor of a target until is uses a turn to take care of the problem. Think of this as being webbed - you're in trouble until you use a turn to clean the webs. Likewise, you're out of a shield until you take care of that little spear stuck in it. Or, you might just have some sort of flag in place for when an "effective" javelin hit sticks, reducing the effectiveness of the target's armor until they do something about it.

Hello Friends,

Just a general question about a general topic - at least here. In fact, I'm sure this question has been asked before, in some way or another!

Do we have an Avernum General Discussion area? Most of the time, Avernum questions get posted in the Avernum boards, which makes perfect sense. The problem becomes that there are... several boards now, as Avernum / Exile have been re-made several times! Therefore, general questions just related to the setting can get stuck in one of these boards, when the subject matter is really universal to Avernum or Exile at large - I've had several topics or posts like this. Consider that I live in the past, so I play the original (as far as remakes go) 90's / early 2000's games, and therefore post in those areas. New players probably play the new games. So, either my musings are just not interesting or worthwhile, or the sections of the forums I'm posting in just aren't really relevant. In any sense, with all the remakes of Avernum and Exile out there (and now Geneforge), will there ever be general series boards for games like these, or will there just continue to be a "choose which board you want to post a general topic in" and hope it sticks?

I played the Geneforge demo a long, long time ago and quite liked it. However, really knowing the game well enough to apply it to a pen-and-paper system is beyond me. Let alone any other game - I am a tinkerer first and foremost! But someday, I will get there.

...RPG-wargame hybrids are neat and make perfect sense. RPGs were of course born from wargames, after all. Bringing the two formats back together is what I'd term "adventure wargaming." And, for that matter, it might be worth a look into the system I was suggesting in the original post... 😉 Mind you that a LOT of surgery is needed to perfectly match the system to the setting. Heck, you see similar issues in the game modding scene all the time!

As per making your own "adventure wargaming" engine (if such sounds like a plan), that makes me think about my conversation with my cousin the other day. Shadowrun, which seems to be what he played a lot of, is basically an OSR (old-school rules) and wargame hybrid. The wargame part is basically seen in the dicing system, which consists of non-cumulative D6's. It's been a very long time since I worked on the following project, but I started it to get a better idea of how to do simulation in a traditional game system. And most of the game systems I was looking at use non-cumulative D6's. The statistics might be interesting to check out - just don't ask me about them, as I've not messed with any of it for some time:

http://codex.masterplanfoundation.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3061&sid=879868b3a0b300d07ec186d54af97e2e

...Another system I should look at again is Osprey's Broken Legions. When I was reading it the first time, it did not really gel, if you will. But, it reminded me of Nethergate, which is why I bought it. It's another game that would fall into the "adventure wargaming" or skirmish game family, but probably with a greater emphasis on wargaming.

Unless Geneforge changed a lot from when I played the demo so many years ago, you have finite energy to devote to your creations, do you not? This does not sound all that unlike points you have towards the creation of a party or unit in a wargame or "adventure wargame," if you will. Perhaps you should investigate some of the skirmish games out on the market right now? I've not tried Joseph McCullough's other and more notable game, Frostgrave, but that might be just what you're looking for.

So, I went to visit my cousin today, because humanity. We discussed traditional games for a while, as they can have the complexities of software while also having the benefits of whims and easy artistic manipulation. That, of course, is the theory.

Now the question becomes, "which game system suits your preferences?" For me, the one which I bear the most interest in to wrapping around something like, say, Avernum, would be Rangers of Shadow Deep by Joseph McCullough. It's a very simple but elegant system that would need a lot of contortions to work ideally, but you can read about why I like it so much here:

https://www.codexintegrum.com/forums/topic/rangers-of-shadow-deep/

...I'd be happy to discuss my musings further on that matter further if pressed, but that's all WIP and sloppy even now. It was fun to get it all fresh on the mind again, however.

That said, I wonder what you other fine chaps (and chapettes) think about various traditional game engines, which ones you like, and which ones you'd bend to this setting or that setting? As per Avernum, there have been a few older threads on this board about that matter, such as this one here:

https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/23835-avernum-tabletop-rpg/?tab=comments#comment-297340

Anyway, just kind of wanted to throw something on this topic out there again - might make for a good conversation!

Thanks, Randomizer!

Turns out I just had a really good spat of luck when using the kits when I started the game. There was ultimately no boost with higher or lower tool use levels when testing the efficacy of the first aid skill. This is actually a bit disappointing, really: it would make sense if being better with tools made you better at first aid! However, that's just the way it goes. :)

Bit of a necro here - hope no one minds.

I recently decided I'd start a new game of A2, and opted to create a character that was supposed to be a bit of a technical or scholarly type, that was also a sort of soldier in a former life. As such, this character has fairly high starting tool use stats as well as a high first aid stat. I'll try and run some tests later, but does anyone know if tool use boosts first aid? I was surprised at how well first aid has worked so far - the only shortcoming is the original Avernums' sense of time and space, which limits the frequency at which you can use first aid. I cannot remember the stats off-hand, but starting off with a new party on Torment, the skill has been better than a L1 priest in most cases - when you can use it, of course.

I see there was not much of an interest in investigating insects, but no matter - I saw this some time ago, and I'm going to make a case for it now:

Avernum has a lot of swamps near its great underground lakes. Avernum also has its occasional amphibians - mostly the magical fiery salamanders. But what if there was also something more akin to rats in the underground, but of the amphibian variety? I therefore propose that Avernum should in fact have giant killer murdertoads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6YnSXVKUiw

...That is a Giant African Bullfrog. THESE THINGS HAVE TEETH. And they also eat rodents if they can...

(For more fun, watch that while listening to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM5DOSC0jUo)

Look, if there can be giant killer mushrooms, dog-sized rats, and pony-sized slugs, you really should have horrifying bullfrogs in your underground swamps. Just sayin'.

As an interesting aside regarding martial culture and the Sliths, consider again the spear as a utilitarian weapon. We know the Sliths enjoy fish and are good swimmers. Slith spears, on that note, are rather comparable in design to fishing spears. It's possible this was an active design decision by Jeff, though Jeff might offer up that he in turn borrowed the idea from somewhere else. The latter is fine and happens in fantasy all the time, but regardless of the origins of that design decision, it kinda works out - and, if you take to that idea, it says a lot about the Sliths (and it's not bad, either!).

Great notes on the speculated dates, by the way - I really should work on firing up the games once more! Regardless, it's again rather clear from Avernum 2 that Sliths were known to the Vahnatai, at least those of the Olgai tribe.

The note on the Nephils in the caves at the time of the first expedition is interesting, and it ties into some of my other musings in the Cave Fauna thread (Original Avernum Series Board). I get the impression that the caves were always hard to get into, but they were never cut off from the surface until there was an active push to do so. So, various groups (like people, even) could go down there if they were so inclined. I like to imagine that the uppermost caves on Ermarian are not unlike caves on Earth, and follow the same general "zone" patterns and life cycle patterns as we are familiar with. Crossing an extended "dark zone" would be dangerous and quite challenging, but it would certainly be possible. Eventually crossing into what could be considered Exile would probably be quite a surprise - suddenly, there's somehow some semblance of light (I don't buy into the "Exile used to be dark before people" bit), and there seems to be this transition from no light and life to just the opposite. Think of it like reversing the cave zones - kinda - after a really long and treacherous walk:

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/biology-fields/cave-biology2.htm

...So, if there were Nephil down in Exile during the time of the First Expedition, they or their ancestors would have had a good reason to make that trek: the Empire was certainly busy killing them off at that time. That concept alone would make for a great story: the Nephil tribe that risked everything fleeing into an endless cavern or face extermination at the hands of the Empire.

Other creatures would have also been able to make that journey if you take to that idea: bats, rats, goblins, etc. However, there is also something to the idea of the Empire sending down pests... just to make the Avernites all the more miserable (with the sick twist of potentially also keeping them fed).