Untamed Banana Slug

Originally Posted By: SacredPath_82 very nice, another valuable (if utterly expensive) skill but "lethal" here means... what? You inflicted just enough damage to kill the character with that hit (i.e. it is intended to be lethal) or did you just inflict random surplus damage that was enough to kill? From what I have seen, you appear to inflict an additional 50% damage. So it's the equivalent of a landing a well-aimed blow. Obviously investing in the skill increases you probability of landing a lethal blow, but it's unclear as to how much. 3% per point seems plausible, and is a common interval increase (the chance of getting a second strike with quick action also increases by 3%).

I tested four values for lethal blow (5, 10, 15, 20) against Solberg on Torment, with a Lvl 13 character. Lethal blow = 5; 3/20 (15%) of blows were lethal. Lethal blow = 10; 10/20 (50%) of blows were lethal. Lethal blow = 15; 13/20 (65%) of blows were lethal. Lethal blow = 20; 12/20 (60%) of blows were lethal!? I retested lethal blow = 20, 11/20 (55%) of blows were lethal. From this we can conclude that: 1. Lethal blow doesn't just apply to weak enemies. 2. There may be a plateau around the 20 skill point mark. Edit: Wait, scratch that. LB = 30 gives a 80% chance of a lethal blow. Blah.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/Red_Wizard/parry0.jpg How can I parry an attack with a 0% chance? Note that I don't have any points in parry, but I do have a single point in riposte.

Originally Posted By: avatar42 so Eliavri's bow is better for basic archery dabblers as it gives bonuses while the heartstriker doesn't? Do the calculations in Excel. Edit: Never mind, it takes me about 2 minutes to do myself. Code: Damage levels Heartstriker Elavari's 1 22.5 362 25 383 27.5 404 30 425 32.5 446 35 467 37.5 488 40 509 42.5 5210 45 5411 47.5 5612 50 5813 52.5 6014 55 6215 57.5 6416 60 6617 62.5 6818 65 7019 67.5 7220 70 7421 72.5 7622 75 7823 77.5 8024 80 8225 82.5 8426 85 8627 87.5 8828 90 9029 92.5 9230 95 9431 97.5 9632 100 9833 102.5 10034 105 10235 107.5 10436 110 10637 112.5 10838 115 11039 117.5 11240 120 114 Heartstriker overtake's Elavari's when you have 29 combat levels of damage for bows. Edit: What's wrong with the format? It looks fine when I edit it, but it gets all compacted after I post it.

Meat shields are dead weight. Replace them with spellcasters.

Originally Posted By: SacredPath_82 I didn't really see a reference to my build in there though, only generic things like "30 points of QA give one extra swing 1/3" which isn't exactly true since at least Haste and probably some other things also influence QA. The threads I linked to have our forum veterans/nerds discussing the respective advantages and disadvantages of melee/pole/bows, which relates to your build and the discussion I'm having with fractal. As to your build, haste, quick strike and fast on feet* would all benefit bows as well. Quick action is the only skill which gives swords the edge. But this is counteracted by the ability to strike an enemy from anywhere on the screen with a bow, the decreased chance to parry, the ability to stay outside the range of aura attacks, and being able to completely avoid all those harmful effects you receive when you strike an opponent in combat. * Fast on feet is a relatively lousy trait, by the way.

Originally Posted By: SacredPath_82 Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug Why would a swordsman be any more effective than an archer? Longbows use the *same* damage multiplier as swords, except the enemy is less likely to parry them and you don't need to be next to an enemy to connect. Furthermore, you can get the Blessed Longbow and Farsight Band real early in the game. Waveblade vs Blessed Longbow and +3 to Sharpshooter = No contest! because Quick Action. And yes I know Quick Action has been nerfed, but in A4 there was a killer combination that still works pretty well: Fast On Feet + Quick Action + Quick Strike + Haste. These definitely influence each other in A4, and to some degree in A5. And since battle disciplines are applied to both swings, it's still pretty nice. Not as overpowered as in A4 where my two hasted Elite Warrior+FOF guys wipe out everything, but still good. There is discussion at: http://www.ironycentral.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=109988&page=1 and http://www.ironycentral.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=111925&page=1 regarding this issue. Apparently the jury is still out, despite all that discussion!

Originally Posted By: fractalnavel I was thinking more in terms of poles/blades v. bows, not poles v. blades v. bows. Close combat v. ranged. I've always wondered why the term "melee" was reserved for blades in these games, since there isn't a blade v. pole combat technique difference. I wasn't really favoring anything, only attempting to offer an alternative perspective with respect to the following exchange: Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug ... Originally Posted By: Earth2025 Bows suck on damage until you reach Harkins/Tranquility so 2nd swordsman or polefighter would be better than archer. Why would a swordsman be any more effective than an archer? Longbows use the *same* damage multiplier as swords, except the enemy is less likely to parry them and you don't need to be next to an enemy to connect. Furthermore, you can get the Blessed Longbow and Farsight Band real early in the game. Waveblade vs Blessed Longbow and +3 to Sharpshooter = No contest! Fair enough. What I'm saying is that I think you'd have a plausible case if you said poles > bows, but I just can't see how swords > bows. And I stand by my claim that a Blessed Longbow + Farsight band > Waveblade.

Originally Posted By: fractalnavel Oh, no - I'm not "arguing" in favor of bows at all - quite the contrary: Yeah, I knew that, I just had a mental lapse. Brain not detected: Retry, fail, ignore? Anyway, all of the advantages you ascribe to melee weapons *also* apply to pole weapons, except pole weapons receive an extra 0.5 die of damage per combat level. So you should be arguing in favour of pole weapons, not meleee.

Originally Posted By: fractalnavel Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug Do you think a party of 4 swordsmen would have fared any better? Yessir; and now that you mention it, I guess I'd actually have to try - all blades, no bows. Four sliths with poles, perhaps ? But the blades offer more options and better stat buffs, usually. I'm skeptical. You could make a good case for polearms, but melee weapons are just bows which you can't use at a range. Quote: But yes, melee + quick action + blademaster + anatomy + lethal blow, along with better weapon numbers, sure seems to beat bow + sharpshooter (battle disciplines, quick strike, and strength/dexterity being "equal"). Battle disciplines: not so equal, perhaps, as a blade/pole user gets benefit from those primary weapon stats in addition to the +1 to BD, whereas a bow user merely gets +1 BD from them, and +.5 BD for its primary weapon. Polearms have better weapon numbers than melee, as well as more stat boosts available throughout the game. Quote: Strength v. dexterity: I've been having a tough time with encumbrances. I'd have more motivation to pump strength if it affected offensive skills as well. The armor bearing increase associated with more strength has to be compared with the defensive increase of pure dexterity. Being able to wear slightly heavier armour isn't a big deal. Quote: Nahhh - bows don't even compare. A quickly dead enemy is the best defense ;-) Which means that you should be arguing in favour of polearms, not melee.

Do you think a party of 4 swordsmen would have fared any better?

Originally Posted By: Lie for your cause! All poles are two handed. They actually do balance decently with shields, although on very high difficulty the primary role of fighters is to soak up damage (for which shields are helpful) and the mages are the ones that dish it out, mostly. Or so I gather; I avoid Torment. Shields provide negligible damage protection, especially on Torment where your PC's receive a hidden -25% (?) deduction to all resistances and armour. If the shield has stat bonuses such as +2 to QA, they are worth a bit of inconvenience (eg. pumping up strength so that you aren't encumbered), but not trading away that extra 0.5 avg damage per combat level if you are choosing between melee and pole. Quote: On penalties, how far have you played? I think you may be overestimating the difficulty of high experience penalties. Part of what makes them not as bad as they seem is the fact that the experience you gain scales with level, so the actual difference at a 30% penalty is far less than 30%. Yes. And the bonuses offered by traits and races far outstrips the 10-15 skill points lost. Quote: Nimble Fingers is simply a bad trait. It's much more efficient to take another trait that gives more bonuses and to use the skill point savings on more Tool Use. The rest of the traits you pretty much have right, but I'd take another look at Divinely Touched. Yes, it's expensive, but it's also a great saving in skill points. Because you don't lose many levels from penalties, you actually end up with more skill points to spend by taking the trait. It's great for fighters, fairly good for casters, and just works well. Note that battle disciplines work for spells and bows as well as in melee combat, so your casters benefit quite handily from Blademaster too. On races, keep in mind that both nephils and sliths get bonuses to skills that gives more battle disciplines (bows/throwing and polearms, respectively), so they'll give you quicker access to those. I agree that sliths aren't at all tempting if you won't be using poles. Nephils are good for everything, though, because every character benefits from being able to use bows decently, everyone likes more disciplines, and the tiny Gymnastics bonus can't hurt. Seconded. You'd have to be crazy *not* to take Divinely Touched. Originally Posted By: Earth2025 Bows suck on damage until you reach Harkins/Tranquility so 2nd swordsman or polefighter would be better than archer. Why would a swordsman be any more effective than an archer? Longbows use the *same* damage multiplier as swords, except the enemy is less likely to parry them and you don't need to be next to an enemy to connect. Furthermore, you can get the Blessed Longbow and Farsight Band real early in the game. Waveblade vs Blessed Longbow and +3 to Sharpshooter = No contest!

I tested magical efficiency to determine how efficient it actually is. Oooh, graph! http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/Red_Wizard/magefficiency.jpg Any thoughts?

Originally Posted By: Earth2025 Increases damage done by 2 levels? That's a tautology right there. A damage level is the range of values by which your damage output increases when you invest a point in a relevant skill (eg. magery for mage spell damage). To calculate your damage level, look at your weapon's base damage value range. Divide the maximum value by the minimum value to get the multiplier value (let's call it x). A damage level is therefore 1 to x points of damage. For spells, the damage level is listed in the documentation, and is not related to the base damage. Let's use Randomiser's broadsword as an example. The base damage is 11-55. Divide 55 (max base damage) by 11 (min base damage) to get 5 (the damage multiplier). The damage level is 1 to 5. So increasing your damage by two damage levels would result in your minimum damage increasing by 2, your maximum damage increasing by 10, and your average damage increasing by 6. Note that melee weapons in A5 never have a multiplier as high as 5! Randomiser is using values from Geneforge, where the damage multipliers are much higher. Randomiser also mentioned die values, which you may find confusing, as it's a throwback to Dungeons and Dragons system and you don't see any dice rolled on the computer screen. The damage levels employed in A5 could be considered similar to the die rolling system using in D&D, where the range of damage for a damage level constitute the numbers (or sides) on a die, and the increase in the number of damage levels is the number of die rolls. Having four damage levels with a multiplier of 5 translates to 4d5, which means rolling a die with five sides (ergo. the numbers 1 to 5) four times. Therefore your minimum damage is 4, your maximum damage is 4*5 = 20, and your average is (4+20)/2 = 12.

Isn't it possible that characters can change their specialities (ie. classes)? From memory, Barzhal was originally a Guardian. Yet when you meet him in GF2, he resembles a Shaper.

Originally Posted By: Guided:Voices :: Expected:Nobody The difference in ACTUAL damage reduction between a complete set of non-encumbering armor, and a complete set of the strongest encumbering armor, is miniscule. The better armor never hurts, of course, but it is pretty much the least effective way of protecting your characters, and is therefore the least necessary. My gaming experience supports this statement. The armour difference between my priest with an encumbrance of 65 pounds and a mage with an encumbrance of 40 pounds was negligible. The ideal armour for a mage isn't the one with the highest defensive rating, anyway.

They don't increase with level, and are far inferior to many other traits that are available.

From memory, Natural Mage equated to a bonus +4 to spell level.

Originally Posted By: Qalnor Wasn't this team pretty hard early on? I can see it being pretty unstoppable after you get enough magical efficiency, but I think you'd have to do a lot of running back to town. No. I didn't run back to town any more frequently than I would with a 'generic' party, and I *very* rarely used energy potions. BTW, my computer bombed and I lost all my A5 save games. *sigh* But I was doing very well in Vahnatai lands.

Wouldn't it be awesome if the Vahnatai did it?

Originally Posted By: fractalnavel All that food lying around in a famine stricken area, eh ? Hmmm... Thought: food theft should be a crime in this game, and there should be a lower threshold of tolerance for this than for other crimes. Thought (2): over (or under) consumption should affect carried weight & encumbrance. Could also affect the attitude of those you meet: when a fat man appears, do the starving masses (a) despise him, ( toady up to him, or © eat him ? Are there recipes for Nephil adventurer/soldier stew being passed about ? (or are they better when roasted?) Which brings to mind that hunting should be an option, instead of only scavenging / buying. "Ooh, look - rubies !" "Forget about the gems, Cordelia, look what I found - steak !" LOL!!! Oh, the potential. It would be hilarious if there were cannabilistic tribes in A6. Soylent green is people!

The cake is a lie!

I always found E1/A1 the most difficult, simply because you were given the least direction. You were just thrown into an alien world with no clear objectives.

Originally Posted By: Turtle My team of four spellcasters (mage w. pointy stick, priest w. bow, priest/mage, and mage/priest) is now at Melanchion's keep and has had no trouble so far. In retrospect, I probably should have made the lead PC a priest rather than a mage, but the armour limitations have not been a problem. Especially since (and I didn't realize this before) anything that increases your To Hit % also increases your armour allowance. Nice. And, yes, summons are invaluable. If I have to choose between many useless summons and two powerful ones, it's a no-brainer. I just want to add: Battle Frenzy + offensive spells = awesome! Unlike the other disciplines, Battle Frenzy is the only one which applies the damage boost to ALL enemies hit by a multi-target spell. And yeah, I made my lead character a priest.

Originally Posted By: Thuryl Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug Do you know what the reward is for killing Solberg/giving papers to Ruth? Or is it simply done so that she won't kill you on the spot? It gives you "points" toward joining the Darkside Loyalists. There are other ways to get in, though. From a cursory reading of the script: 1. Allow Tholmen to escape OR 2. Give Solberg's papers OR 3. Kill Solberg Although I still can't figure out exactly what you need to do to be given the option to join the Darkside Loyalists in the first place.