Slawbug

It's a very good game, and a lot of thought and energy went into its design and execution. That's also true of a number of other Spidweb games, though, certainly including at least Exile 2, Nethergate, and Geneforge 1.

Quote: Originally written by Servile Synergy: the stronger magic of the Infiltrator felt more effective and satisfying to me overlall than the slightly stronger battle ability of the Servile AUGGHH so misleading! The Infiltrator's magic bonus boils down to about +4 levels of damage/duration/etc per spell compared to a Servile. This is not that big. The Servile's melee bonus over an Infiltrator is quite huge though, including +5 or so in Quick Action and Parry and the HP bonus. Actually, what makes an Infiltrator tempting to ME is the better essence -- 7/8, halfway between 6/8 servile and 8/8 lifecrafter. But I think the other two classes are still better. Quote: Originally written by Servile Synergy: I think it is also because fairly low numbers in several Battle categories are effective. This is actually a much-ignored point that is worth paying attention to. Melee weapons get high base bonuses from the weapons themselves late in the game. +20 for the Puresteel Broadsword. Spells never get ANY base bonuses outside of your knowledge of the spell. So Aura of Flames gets Up to Spellcraft + Battle Magic + 3, while melee attacks get up to Str + Melee Weapons + 20.

Quote: —Alorael, who thinks perhaps the problem is different lifecrafter builds. Since you really don't need so much shaping, especially at high levels, why are the lifecrafters turning into glass cannons (or maybe glass leash holders)? The skills that really help you not die (as opposed to kill things with a sword) are no harder for lifecrafters than serviles. Quoted for emphasis! This is what I should have said in fewer words. Listen to Alorael.

Quote: Originally written by Randomizer: While they all have the same initial endurance the fighting classes should get more health per level than the shaping. I checked and a sevile starts with 50% health at base and has a better multiplier so it adds up quickly. See Classes . The base stats are misleading, because each class gets HP (and Energy, and Essence) bonuses that are independent of level and class multiplier and Int/End. All classes get a flat 10 Essence to start with, but for HP they are different. Serviles get 30, and Lifecrafters get 20. The relative difference for points from levels and Endurance is about 10 for Serviles vs 7 for Lifecrafters. It might seem like 50% because you put more points there for your Servile. However, that's because you put more points there. Quote: It adds up since you need skill points for intelligence and shaping that a servile will use to get a 400+ health by chapter 4 with augmentation and essence armor. As SoT commented, what matters is how you use it and whether it's needed. If a Lifecrafter can get along without 400 health, it's not a disadvantage. But again, if your Servile has 400 health your Lifecrafter can certainly have 250. Given the lack of need to pump shaping I don't see why a Lifecrafter would have fewer skill points to blow on HP than a Servile would.

Something I often reflect on, in the midst of my inane analyses, is how incredibly similar the classes are. Really, the differences between the classes, even Servile vs Lifecrafter, are extremely minute as classes go in most games. They can all do everything, and the difference in effectiveness at any given task isn't even that big. They can all do everything well, some can just do some things a little better. This is of course the result of Jeff's preference for freeform, unrestricted character skill systems. I happen to prefer a few sharply distinct options, which is probably why I go to such lengths to analyze the nearly identical classes we do have.

1) There are some gross exaggerations and misstatements floating around here. The Servile does not have "absurdly" more health than the Lifecrafter. It has about 1/2 more health. They even start with the same Endurance. It has a much easier time getting a high Parry, but Parry doesn't reduce damage as much as it did in A4 even. So it's ridiculous to say the Servile is really that much more survivable. You might not pay as much attention to a Lifecrafter's health, but if so, that's because you don't need to, not because you can't. 2) Jeff, pumping the shaping skills does make for considerably more powerful 1st- and 2nd-tier creations. Artila and Cryoa get a lot out of them. However, because the 4th- and 5th-tier creations (plus Drayks) start at such high levels and have such high HP and Energy bonuses and attack skills, the effects on those creations are greatly mitigated. Across the board, HP is only fractionally better, Energy is meaningless for many of those creations anyway, and attack strength goes up by a tiny percentage even when you pump skills to 10. Ramping up damage multipliers for their attack types in G4 helped them A LOT -- it made them useful, rather than worse than Vlish. But when they have a base level around 30, a high base attack skill and sometimes even a Strength bonus, they are going to start out with 30 or 40 levels of attack strength. That only goes up by 1 level per 2 experience levels of the creation... not a very large increase. 3) DV, you keep repeating the benefits of using a Servile but you have not done anything to discredit the benefits of using a Lifecrafter that SoT, Khoth, and others have mentioned. The Servile and Lifecrafter are similar in power, each with different sorts of flexibility that allow an answer to most any situation. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that. They are balanced, much more balanced than Agents and Shapers ever were!

I don't entirely agree. Compared to Serviles, Lifecrafters get: 1/3 less Health Hugely lower melee ability Worse Quick Action Worse Parry and 1/3 more Essence +2 Intelligence Mildly better creations I think the melee ability is balanced out by being able to have more creations at any point in the game -- though the Servile is certainly more versatile. So it's really a question of whether that also balances out the lower Parry and HP. Let's take a look at how much Essence a Servile and a Lifecrafter, with the same investment in Intelligence and the same equipment, will have at several fabricated points. (You can get a lot of bonuses to Int from items so these are fairly reasonable numbers): Code: LV Int + Servile Lifecrafter--- ----- ------- ----------- 5 +2 28 46 10 +5 69 109 15 +8 130 192 20 +12 233 346 30 +16 428 630 40 +16 562 830 This is a significant difference. A Lifecrafter can afford more creations in the first 2 chapters, and better creations in the last 3. Essentially, a lifecrafter potentially has more offensive firepower at any point. And a servile has better defense and, therefore, more options in terms of how to do things at any point. In the end I think they are both good options. (The other three classes are worse, of course.)

*queues up Beethoven's Fifth* <g>

The more I look at it, the more I am concluding that it's not worthwhile to pump a shaping skill early -- or at all. First of all, Cryoa don't really end up any better than Roamers, except for having slightly more ammo. Second of all, once you hit Drayks, the benefits from having high shaping skill are pretty low, as far as individual creations go. Levelled Roamers and Cryoa are cheaper than Drayks but otherwise not any better, and you can more than make up the essence cost by putting some of those 36 skill points into Intelligence. Third of all, mixing shaping types is at least mildly useful, as there are good reasons to make one Vlish over a Roamer and a Wingbolt over a Kyshakk. Plus you can just make an army of cheap Artila in chapter 1 and steamroll the chapter. Fourth of all -- and this is the kicker -- because of the 10-cap on shaping skill benefits and the fact that you eventually have +6 to shaping available from items, if you charge to 10 shaping skill right away, you will effectively be paying double for bonus levels -- up to 12 skill points for a single level. That's not so hot. So, my new theory is: don't neglect Leadership and Mechanics. Don't pump shaping skills. Make some Artila and kill things. Pump Int. Pump spell skills. Make a Vlish or two. Pump Int more, make Drayks and Kyshakks or Wingbolts, and live happily ever after.

Well, we know Athron didn't self-fertilize because she talks about having a mate who is also responsible for the brood. Also, it's worth pointing out that, while Athron is female in parts of Exile 2 and all of Exile 3 and Avernum 1-3, in the Exile conversations that talk about the brood -- i.e., Athron's own words -- Athron refers to himself exclusively as male. Athron's gender wasn't changed until after he began brooding... Also, there are what, 2 or 3 serviles that changed genders, out of numerous repeat appearances. 80% of the dragons changed genders. (Unless you count Pythras, or argue that Pyrog's being neutered doesn't count as a gender change, but you're still at at least 50%)

You can buy more living tools, though. Lots of merchants sell one or a few, and most players don't buy them because they're moderately expensive.

Agreed, the AI isn't all bad. When I broke G3 using Vlish (see this topic ), I initially made them with no extra Int to make seven as soon as I could. I actually held off putting Int in for a long time because it was easier to not control them, anyway. I think I finally had to give them Int when I started running into Submission Turrets, which they had to use melee attacks against to do well. Late in the game Int is probably always necessary, but early on when essence is scarce, it can be a waste.

I think that last bit occured in G2 and G3 as well.

Quote: Originally written by Randomizer: You don't need more than 2 or 3 decent creations through the first 2 chapters and being able to make the higher ones with some equipment bonuses makes up for starting them later. No, what makes up for starting them later is the fact that tier 4+ creations (and Drayks) are already good without being levelled up a lot. The equipment bonuses certainly make less difference than levelling up does. I think it's reasonable to use the following plan if you go Cryoa. No matter what you do, you can't get to 10 FS until level 6 and you can't get two properly made Cryoa until level 7, so you actually have 5 skill points of wiggle room naturally. (This is done out for a Lifecrafter). Code: Lv FS Int Ess Cryoa Leadership-- -- --- --- ----- ---------- 4 9 4 30 1 3 (2 points bought) 5 9 4 34 1 3 6 10 4 38 1 3 7 10 5 50 2 3 8 10 5 55 2 5 9 10 5 60 2 610 10 5 65 2 6, Mechanics 4 You can then spend a few levels pumping Leadership or Mechanics as needed. You can also go for Int first if you want to make a few Roamers right away -- there are a few areas full of rogues so you can get XP in battle without worrying about low lead/mech. As noted previously, there is little shortage of money late in the game so I don't mind using living tools when I really need to open a door or chest. Most of them don't have great stuff behind them in chapter 1, though.

Quote: Originally written by Randomizer: For the endgame you might want to look at damage versus drakon since that was a consideration for me to choose fire shaping. Magic shaping is marginal versus them because they resist magic attacks and a war trall isn't any better. I wish I had tried rotgroth since that might work better. Drakons actually don't resist magic at ALL. Ur-Drakons do, though. Otherwise they have the same resists: moderate physical resistance and high fire resistance (and high mental). Essentially, unless you really like Eyebeasts or Unstable Wingbolts, you can treat Ur-Drakons the same way you treat Wingbolts.

So the implication is that Solberg killed himself to get rid of Cheeseball, then came back to life? ?_?

You got it right -- it's based on the highest level character. How did you accrue such a gap? Do the other 3 have lots of advantages and he has disadvantages?

This time, I needed real tables: http://minmax.ermarian.net/g4/g4cre.html

I've been doing some testing with experience, and -- surprise, surprise -- things have changed since G3. It's easy to notice that the penalty for being high level is not ramped up so high so fast. The real change is in how creation levels are handled. Your own XP is still reduced by the number of creations (or other party members) you have, and so are your creations' XP. The reduction is definitely the same for the PC, and it seems to be the same for creations: --- XP Earned --- Creations PC Creations 0 16/16 1 15/16 15/20 2 14/16 14/20 3 13/16 13/20 4 12/16 12/20 5 11/16 11/20 6 10/16 10/20 7 9/16 9/20 HOWEVER, creation XP is now adjusted on an individual basis. It isn't based on the creation's level, however. It is based on the difference between your level and the creation's level. There is a certain range of level variance where there is no adjustment made. If it goes above or below that, creations can earn less or more experience. This effect is not huge -- but when you make level 20 creations at level 6, it is definitely noticeable. If you make a high level creation and keep it with you the whole game, it will no longer lose its level advantage at a constant rate, it will lose it more quickly at first, and eventually slow to the old constant rate if given long enough. All in all, I guess this doesn't change things that much, but it does steal a number of levels of creations you keep through the whole game, which is yet another roadblock in the Cryoa or Artila strategy.

There is more evidence -- but it's on both sides! In E2, Patrick says of the Vahnatai: "It is their magic that created the glowing fungus that gives us light, and thus life." In A2 he says "our" instead of "their" due to the insertion of a question talking about magic in general -- it is not actually asserting that Exile created the fungus. Maxfield and X in A4 talk about refining the glowing fungus, but that doesn't mean much at all. On the other hand, A4 also has an area description for the Tower remains that says "All of the plants that make life in the underworld livable, the glowing fungus, the trees, the giant, edible mushrooms, they were created here." Also, early in the game: "Early in the history of Avernum, ingenious wizards created a fungus that glows with a soft green light. It spread, with help, to the ceilings and walls of every cavern in this land." In ZKR, Seletine says: "Your way will be lit by glowing green fungus in the ceiling. This was created in the Tower of Magi." However, this is of questionable canonicity since Seletine also talks about the Tower of Magi having already been rebuilt, which it wasn't. So we have, for the Vahnatai: E1 - Solberg A1 - Solberg E2 - Patrick And for Avernum: E1 - Erika A1 - Erika A4 - Descriptions ZKR - Seletine (questionable) EDIT: Solberg, I'm all for RPs but please don't mix fabricated fantasy in serious discussions about canon. There is nothing to suggest that Rentar-Ihrno or the Council created the fungus, and there are a number of facts that make that sound extremely unlikely.

Useful Lists Canisters Training Synergy's Item List Forging Recipes Item Collection Quests Abilities list and script editing Scripting new list Full Item List Maps Detailed Information Basic Tactics for the Geneforge Series Class Statistics Creation Statistics Further Analysis Experience Damage Multipliers Slartyanalysis - Physical Damage Resistances Reputation (Pro-Rebel vs Pro-Shaper) Slarty's Insane Reputation Analysis Leadership Mechanics Creature / Enemy Resistances Ending Guide Discussion Lifecrafter - Fire Shaping w/Cryoa (Part 2) Shock Trooper - Why they are inferior Shocktrooper Tales The Warrior Challenge Delicious Vlish's Warrior Challenge Servile - Combat Heavy - The Adventures of Onan the Barbarian Servile - Magic Heavy The Insidious Infiltrator Wingbolts vs. Kyshakks Other Trainer mod (grants ability to make all creations) - Fan-Made Content Artifact Weapons mod - Fan-Made Content

Err, my bad. That thread somehow slipped out of my view. Apologies

I seem to remember having dialogue with Lethos when I went there solo in my first game. I'm not sure, though. The XP reward is 200 at level 7 (in the scripts). As for the Cryoa Plan and experience: it really depends how many Cryoa you think you will want late in the game. I did out the math for a few ways of doling out skill points. It works best to get FS to 10 first, then go for Int. At level 6 you get to 10 FS and get one Cryoa. (I made one earlier, but it hadn't gained 1000 XP by the time I got to level 6, so it got absorbed and remade.) At level 7 you get a second Cryoa. Level 9 is a third and level 10 is a fourth. However, depending on how many you plan on keeping late in the game, you can stop pumping Int and focus on other stats for a while. 2, 3 and 4 are all reasonable numbers depending on how you like Drayks. It only takes two experience levels to get a Leadership of 6, and the doors and chests you *can* come back for. Besides, there's practically no interesting loot in Chapter 1.

I just figured Daze and Strong Daze, and other mental magic, would be sufficient crowd control. Is it harder than in the past to keep Mental Magic strong enough to be effective against mobs? I'm used to Strong Daze letting you take out three creatures basically for free. Also, I figured crystals and wands with a few points in Missiles would work for opening volleys/mob needs. Nope?

Ooh. Bug!