Slawbug

Quote: Originally written by Waylander: Mica, I know that Tulduric discovered how to alter serviles. But I also thought that the Drakons made a similiar discovery independent of Tulduric and the Awakened (eg. Eass has the ability to Shape you without any required machinery). Or was that only after you stole the Awakaned Research for the Takers? I'm not sure. This point is unclear. However, everyone in the valley beyond Freegate -- the Takers, Barzites and Awakened -- originally worked together. It was only when Barzahl became megalomanaical that the Takers and Awakened left. We know that the designs for Drakons/Gazers/Rots all came from that collaborative period, with Barzahl's mind behind them. The simplest explanation for Tuldaric's augmentation would seem to be the parallel one.

Actually, it's proportional to half the square, since Endurance (and other stats) only go up 1 point every other level for creations. Really, the only reason Wingbolts could ever be called fragile is the comparison with Kyshakks, who cost the same essence and have a lot more bonus HP, and an attack that's nearly as good (yes, it's still worse even factoring in the electrocution). However, Wingbolts *do* get better resistances. In a duel, a Wingbolt will beat a Kyshakk every time.

G2: THOT-THA THE GAZER: "My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers, and my eye's path led me back to here." "Barzahl's eyes saw the spark, the idea. But it was the Takers who created me. They are mighty." "The Takers have ones who can shape, and marvelously. But the one who made me was not a Shaper." Thot-Tha flinches back. You can issue powerful commands too. Finally, it says, "I can not say the name. But I can tell you I was made by a drakon of the Takers." ("No gazers will be made here?") "Not yet. Only the mighty Takers can make Gazers." FENEN IN RADIANT COLLEGE: ("How have you improved vlish?") "That was Barzahl's work. He developed the gazer and the eyebeast from the basic vlish template. We haven't made many yet. But soon." ("I let out the rotghroth. It attacked me.") He sighs. "Of course. Control issues. As always. The Takers are so much ahead of us with that creation." MELANCON EYE: ("Why do you hate Syros so much?") "He made me." LEARNED THANI: "Before the war, Takers and Barzites worked together. They made new creations. Strong creations. They were concerned only for pure power, forgetting about wisdom, about control." "Through this process, strong creations were made. The drakon. The gazer. The rotghroth." ROGUE GAZER: ("Who created you?") "The fool drakons. I was shaped under the claws of Akkat. I was sent here to be their guard. Their lackey. Their control was too weak when I got far away." TESSERA EYE: "We gazers are very new. Only a few of us exist. The drakons are the only ones who can make us now, and they have not fully explored our power." AKKAT'S LAB NOTES: "The book describes all of the failed experiments with drakons, gazers, and rotghroths. Thus, it is a very long book. Making creations of such power is a very unpredictable and dangerous process." ZEZKAI EYE: "I am an eyebeast. Rhakkus has created me." Also, the chain of creators is as follows: Barzahl / Rhakkus -> Sith -> Easss -> Ghaldring -> etc. Barzahl didn't create Rhakkus, but he transformed him from a drayk into a drakon. I have searched around a bit, and I can't find anything saying Barzahl or any Barzites came up with the plan for rotghroths. They might well have, or it might have been a collaboration between the Barzites and Takers. Edit: It's also worth pointing out that two of the Taker researchers/leaders -- Rhakkus and Akkat -- had been working with Barzahl from the time they met on Sucia onwards. So it is tough to tease apart the contributions of one or the other faction. Barzahl was certainly ambitious and inventive, and the Takers seem to have had greater ability to actually Shape stuff, for some reason. But beyond that, it's hard to say.

Tuldaric's should read "Magical Capacity for Serviles and Humans." Or didn't you augment yourself in G2, ET? (Edit: And it's spelled Tuldaric.) I'm a little confused at your continued use of the term "self-shaping". Isn't the distinction really between (1) creating new life forms (traditional shaping) (2) modifying existing creations (3) modifying humans Also, did Litalia actually invent the Warped Creators?

Well, Easss modified himself so he could shape, and then made numerous augmentations to the Drakon design. Less colorful than Barzahl's achievements, but also actual new ground. It's not like the Shapers had never created new types of creations before. Barzahl did the same old things, just with (a lot) more power and (a lot) fewer rules. As for Ghaldring, he reconstructed the Geneforge and came up with the Unbound. That's got to count for something.

Many of the advancements, sure, but I dunno about most. Easss and Ghaldring deserve some credit, and Tuldaric. We also don't know that Danette wasn't responsible for other advances prior to the Geneforge. Sucia Island operated as a research facility for many years. Regardless, what did Barzahl do besides come up with three new creations (admittedly, astonishingly effective ones)?

That said, the ease with which Ernest, working by himself, can teleport people across half a continent makes you wonder just how deep Exile has to be in order to be unreachable by such means. Maybe teleporting "through" solid rock is harder, though I'm not sure how much "through" applies to teleportation anyway.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Barzahl probably would have gotten more votes had I not made the comment in the first post. A pity, really, considering the fact that he contributed more to the art of shaping than any other single being in the history of the games. Except for Danette.

Quote: Originally written by Fifteen Second Delay: You can't always count on end-of-game deus ex machina wizardry, though. —Alorael, who is always confused by teleportation in Avernum. Sometimes it seems trivial. Sometimes nobody can teleport out of Avernum without going to inordinate lengths to collect gadgets and locations and such. Is there an anti-teleportation barrier twenty feet below sea level? I would imagine that you always need special gadgets. In the early days of Exile, there just weren't any. Later, they were around and just not mentioned.

To be fair, Nephils get a bonus which is identical in effect to a Dex bonus -- they get the offensive bonus from Bows and Throws and the defensive bonus from Gymnastics. Even Exile's bonuses are pretty paltry, though, compared with the obvious physical differences among the races. What would make more sense to me -- and this would also be an easy way to balance a race like the Vahnatai -- would be to have different skill point costs and HP/SP formulas for each race, kind of like Geneforge does with its classes. Another option would be to have equipment restrictions, kind of like Nethergate did. Vahnatai are never described, that I can think of, as wearing plate armor.

Quote: Originally written by Thuryl: Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: but at least they aren't factually untrue (like drakon have innate shaping abilites Actually, I think there's a case to be made for this. Isn't there a reference somewhere to Ghaldring being "the first drakon with the ability to Shape"? This must refer to innate Shaping ability rather than Shaping ability as such, since Ghaldring himself was Shaped by Easss. I thought I remembered that reference, too. But grep dug up only about 50 references to Easss Shaping Ghaldring. I think what we're thinking of is that drakons were the first creation with the ability to Shape. AHA! GREP TO THE RESCUE! Issss-Ta the Drayk says: "No Shaper, that is for sure. I was made by Easss, the first drakon who could shape, the creator of Ghaldring. No, Ghaldring was not the first drakon who could Shape, whatever he is claiming now."

Battle creations were at least theoretically useful in G1 and G2, when most of them did have higher combat bonuses than other creations, and when melee damage was higher than missile damage (d8 vs d6-8) rather than lower (d4 vs d3-12).

Ack. ET, I have to apologize; Drypeak isn't west of Burwood, it's west of Illya. I mixed up the province names. Anyway, that doesn't look terribly plausible. I looked up the "western sea" references in G1. There are actually two. One is just the narration, as Dikiyoba pointed out. The other is Gnorrel (the leader of the Takers, and Trajkov's ally). Here's all the relevant text plus the text about Sucia and Dillame's location: GNORREL: "There are humans on this island, who have come from far across the western sea" MASHA: "We are people from land far away. Icy land, harsh, across sea. We are great explorers, so we came here." This makes sense. No Shaper has ever crossed the western sea. Some consider it to be impassable. ENDING: You depart Sucia island at last, setting course for the mainland. The island was not as remote as you imagined it. It is only fifty miles from the nearest Shaper settlement. Fifty miles and two centuries. In but a day, you arrive at the coastal settlement of Dillame. There are a dozen Shapers there, working to tame this wild coast, populate it with friendly fauna, and make it safe for settlement.

How would the balancing be tricky? Geneforge ONE had creations with unlimited slowing ability. G4 had creations that could curse. Haste and Bless are also far cheaper spells than others that are already emulated by creations (Aura of Flames and Kill, I'm looking at you). And Jeff would have to work hard to make a creation more broken than the G3 Vlish.

Well, who knows what that one Sholai meant by the western sea. Western relative to the Sholai homeland, maybe?

Aimee Kilser would be a wonderful surprise -- although given my distaste for the direction the story has gone in post-1996, maybe not. Kelner, I dunno. Kelner seems to have emulated Solberg's caution, but not his magical prowess. Solberg was powerful enough to be Erika and Garzahd's peer on the surface. He was a rare expert in an unusual and demanding field of magic (minddueling). Kelner was powerful enough to be an administrator for years... and years... and years. Yes, he was on the Triad, but he's the only Triad member we never saw ANY magic from. Even Seletine put a bundle of wands together. I mean, sheesh. Sorry excuse for a wizard, Kelner is.

It's worth pointing out that G1-4 all occur relatively close to each other. Sucia Island, while in the middle of the ocean, is described as being not too far from Dillame (yes, Dillame is mentioned in G1). Drypeak Valley is just west of Burwood Province, and the Ashen Isles are north of the northeast part of Terrestia.

Don't forget Rone. I think it would be safe to say that, as of the end of A4, X is the most powerful mage extant -- given the seemingly frail states of Solberg and Rone. There were a number of other second- and third-tier wizards in the earlier games, and it's not hard to imagine one or two of them growing in power and skill significantly. However, they all seem to have died (Mahdavi, Silverio), become demented (Thompson, Vidrain) or disappeared (Enla, Ostoth). The dragons disappeared as well. Pathass is still around, and potentially among the most powerful magic-users, but he isn't a mage.

Levels have stagnated even for non-singletons in pretty much every Jeff game save Nethergate. It was most noticeable in A4 and G4 though, it's true.

Wasn't it Zakary? And Barzahl didn't make me question my lifestyle, ET...

The strength might be affected by spellcasting power at very low levels of blessing -- I haven't tested that, and that's the way it always was in Exile. Regardless, there is definitely an easily achievable limit beyond which spellcasting power only adds to blessing duration. ...Come to think of it, I'm not 100% sure this is how blessing affects damage. I think it is, but I haven't tested and I know others (Randomizer?) have suggested it just adds a percentage factor to damage, the converse of shielding. I find this pretty unlikely, but it's possible. Blessing does, however, affect to-hit chance just like extra levels of attack strength do.

Also, blessing. Blessing adds a good-sized chunk of combat bonus.

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: Originally by Nikki: Quote: And I must be the only person who couldn't care about alchemy. All I ever use are energy elixirs anyway, and I don't care whether or not I make them or buy them. Same here. All Dikiyoba ever used the skill for was for an occasional graymold salve. Same here, and I find it ironic that Dikiyoba agrees, given her alchemocentric role in the scripts.

Here's the Wikipedia article . Apparently, it was basically a blind Babelfish effort.

The thing that I think really made them horrible for me the first time was facing them as a singleton. I had a 99% dodge against them, but the lack of good First Aid meant I had to just use my bow against them, so each chitrach basically attacked and missed 3 or 5 times, with me shooting them in between each one. Their attack sound/animation gets very annoying when it is a repeated pause in a chain of pressing the same button over and over.