Slawbug

In E1, there were very few interesting characters, and Solberg had some good stuff to say about the history of Exile, so he gets a pass. In E2, Solberg was actually a pretty cool character. He actually had a legitimate reason to isolate, withdraw, and be bitter, but for once he didn't whine and complain about other people; he actually tried to be helpful. And he provided an interesting perspective on the final plot point of the game. In E3, he whined and moaned about Linda but didn't actually do anything about her return. I always found that a little bit ridiculous. Solberg was the senior triad member, and I can't imagine either X or Mahdavi really pushing to get Linda back, let alone Micah. So I've always held Solberg partly responsible for the Tower of Magi disaster. Plus, he got demoted to teaching frigging level 4 spells to noobventurers. Lame. A4 saw more whining and moaning and general uselessness.

Just to clarify, you certainly never need more than 16 Tool Use. And you don't *really* need that either -- there are very few traps you can't just survive your way through.

This all sounds great, but I'm particularly excited to hear: Quote: Originally written by Spidweb: ii. There is now a system of battle disciplines. People with high combat skills will be able to use special abilities. Some of them are cool enough that some mages will be tempted to train in pole weapons. This is exactly what the character engine needed after A4. A4 was reasonably well balanced, but character progression was not terribly interesting. I'm not sure what exactly "battle disciplines" means -- whether it refers to the special abilities themselves, or -- be still my beating heart -- an open-ended, divergent specialization system like the one used in SAngband. Hopefully this also means the character skills will be more differentiated. We don't need multiple sets of skills that do almost exactly the same thing (Spellcraft/Magery, and so on) and we don't need skills that are almost impossible to train in *and* are less useful than other skills (Anatomy, Lethal Blow, Riposte, and don't even talk to me about Magical Efficiency and Blademaster). I do note that nothing has been written about more variety among the spells. That makes me sad, but you can't have everything. Edit: Oh yeah. Solberg having a bigger role is interesting. He's already the only major character to appear in every game. Hopefully, he will also have something interesting to say -- he hasn't really done that since 1996.

I still can't get over how much "Barzahl" sounds like "Garzahd".

The Barzites didn't stop making them. One of them says "we haven't made many YET."

Where are you getting that from, Nalyd?

No worries - if you leave an area and then come back and revisit the sheds where you found rats, there is a chance they will reappear. Most people don't get enough rat kills from a single trip through the sheds anyway.

Yes, but there are multiple sources who state that the Barzites simply didn't know how to make them. Clearly, that has changed by the time the PC is running around. But we still only meet Taker-made Gazers. At best you can suggest that the Takers and Barzites made them more or less at the same time, but it seems like a stretch to argue that the Barzites made them first.

Compare to La Marseillaise . Edit: Well, best compare SoT's version. I was wondering about "minette", though.

What in the world would suggest that, Invisible Retlaw?

See, this is why I hold SoT in such high esteem. Bravo.

Oooh. Good point about that instructor ET! It still seems likely to me that the Takers were the first ones to successfully make Gazers -- given that nobody claims the converse, and we meet plenty of Taker-made eyes but none crafted by Barzahl. But clearly, that knowledge spread or was duplicated.

Quote: Originally written by Waylander: Mica, I know that Tulduric discovered how to alter serviles. But I also thought that the Drakons made a similiar discovery independent of Tulduric and the Awakened (eg. Eass has the ability to Shape you without any required machinery). Or was that only after you stole the Awakaned Research for the Takers? I'm not sure. This point is unclear. However, everyone in the valley beyond Freegate -- the Takers, Barzites and Awakened -- originally worked together. It was only when Barzahl became megalomanaical that the Takers and Awakened left. We know that the designs for Drakons/Gazers/Rots all came from that collaborative period, with Barzahl's mind behind them. The simplest explanation for Tuldaric's augmentation would seem to be the parallel one.

Actually, it's proportional to half the square, since Endurance (and other stats) only go up 1 point every other level for creations. Really, the only reason Wingbolts could ever be called fragile is the comparison with Kyshakks, who cost the same essence and have a lot more bonus HP, and an attack that's nearly as good (yes, it's still worse even factoring in the electrocution). However, Wingbolts *do* get better resistances. In a duel, a Wingbolt will beat a Kyshakk every time.

G2: THOT-THA THE GAZER: "My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers, and my eye's path led me back to here." "Barzahl's eyes saw the spark, the idea. But it was the Takers who created me. They are mighty." "The Takers have ones who can shape, and marvelously. But the one who made me was not a Shaper." Thot-Tha flinches back. You can issue powerful commands too. Finally, it says, "I can not say the name. But I can tell you I was made by a drakon of the Takers." ("No gazers will be made here?") "Not yet. Only the mighty Takers can make Gazers." FENEN IN RADIANT COLLEGE: ("How have you improved vlish?") "That was Barzahl's work. He developed the gazer and the eyebeast from the basic vlish template. We haven't made many yet. But soon." ("I let out the rotghroth. It attacked me.") He sighs. "Of course. Control issues. As always. The Takers are so much ahead of us with that creation." MELANCON EYE: ("Why do you hate Syros so much?") "He made me." LEARNED THANI: "Before the war, Takers and Barzites worked together. They made new creations. Strong creations. They were concerned only for pure power, forgetting about wisdom, about control." "Through this process, strong creations were made. The drakon. The gazer. The rotghroth." ROGUE GAZER: ("Who created you?") "The fool drakons. I was shaped under the claws of Akkat. I was sent here to be their guard. Their lackey. Their control was too weak when I got far away." TESSERA EYE: "We gazers are very new. Only a few of us exist. The drakons are the only ones who can make us now, and they have not fully explored our power." AKKAT'S LAB NOTES: "The book describes all of the failed experiments with drakons, gazers, and rotghroths. Thus, it is a very long book. Making creations of such power is a very unpredictable and dangerous process." ZEZKAI EYE: "I am an eyebeast. Rhakkus has created me." Also, the chain of creators is as follows: Barzahl / Rhakkus -> Sith -> Easss -> Ghaldring -> etc. Barzahl didn't create Rhakkus, but he transformed him from a drayk into a drakon. I have searched around a bit, and I can't find anything saying Barzahl or any Barzites came up with the plan for rotghroths. They might well have, or it might have been a collaboration between the Barzites and Takers. Edit: It's also worth pointing out that two of the Taker researchers/leaders -- Rhakkus and Akkat -- had been working with Barzahl from the time they met on Sucia onwards. So it is tough to tease apart the contributions of one or the other faction. Barzahl was certainly ambitious and inventive, and the Takers seem to have had greater ability to actually Shape stuff, for some reason. But beyond that, it's hard to say.

Tuldaric's should read "Magical Capacity for Serviles and Humans." Or didn't you augment yourself in G2, ET? (Edit: And it's spelled Tuldaric.) I'm a little confused at your continued use of the term "self-shaping". Isn't the distinction really between (1) creating new life forms (traditional shaping) (2) modifying existing creations (3) modifying humans Also, did Litalia actually invent the Warped Creators?

Well, Easss modified himself so he could shape, and then made numerous augmentations to the Drakon design. Less colorful than Barzahl's achievements, but also actual new ground. It's not like the Shapers had never created new types of creations before. Barzahl did the same old things, just with (a lot) more power and (a lot) fewer rules. As for Ghaldring, he reconstructed the Geneforge and came up with the Unbound. That's got to count for something.

Many of the advancements, sure, but I dunno about most. Easss and Ghaldring deserve some credit, and Tuldaric. We also don't know that Danette wasn't responsible for other advances prior to the Geneforge. Sucia Island operated as a research facility for many years. Regardless, what did Barzahl do besides come up with three new creations (admittedly, astonishingly effective ones)?

That said, the ease with which Ernest, working by himself, can teleport people across half a continent makes you wonder just how deep Exile has to be in order to be unreachable by such means. Maybe teleporting "through" solid rock is harder, though I'm not sure how much "through" applies to teleportation anyway.

Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Barzahl probably would have gotten more votes had I not made the comment in the first post. A pity, really, considering the fact that he contributed more to the art of shaping than any other single being in the history of the games. Except for Danette.

Quote: Originally written by Fifteen Second Delay: You can't always count on end-of-game deus ex machina wizardry, though. —Alorael, who is always confused by teleportation in Avernum. Sometimes it seems trivial. Sometimes nobody can teleport out of Avernum without going to inordinate lengths to collect gadgets and locations and such. Is there an anti-teleportation barrier twenty feet below sea level? I would imagine that you always need special gadgets. In the early days of Exile, there just weren't any. Later, they were around and just not mentioned.

To be fair, Nephils get a bonus which is identical in effect to a Dex bonus -- they get the offensive bonus from Bows and Throws and the defensive bonus from Gymnastics. Even Exile's bonuses are pretty paltry, though, compared with the obvious physical differences among the races. What would make more sense to me -- and this would also be an easy way to balance a race like the Vahnatai -- would be to have different skill point costs and HP/SP formulas for each race, kind of like Geneforge does with its classes. Another option would be to have equipment restrictions, kind of like Nethergate did. Vahnatai are never described, that I can think of, as wearing plate armor.

Quote: Originally written by Thuryl: Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: but at least they aren't factually untrue (like drakon have innate shaping abilites Actually, I think there's a case to be made for this. Isn't there a reference somewhere to Ghaldring being "the first drakon with the ability to Shape"? This must refer to innate Shaping ability rather than Shaping ability as such, since Ghaldring himself was Shaped by Easss. I thought I remembered that reference, too. But grep dug up only about 50 references to Easss Shaping Ghaldring. I think what we're thinking of is that drakons were the first creation with the ability to Shape. AHA! GREP TO THE RESCUE! Issss-Ta the Drayk says: "No Shaper, that is for sure. I was made by Easss, the first drakon who could shape, the creator of Ghaldring. No, Ghaldring was not the first drakon who could Shape, whatever he is claiming now."

Battle creations were at least theoretically useful in G1 and G2, when most of them did have higher combat bonuses than other creations, and when melee damage was higher than missile damage (d8 vs d6-8) rather than lower (d4 vs d3-12).

Ack. ET, I have to apologize; Drypeak isn't west of Burwood, it's west of Illya. I mixed up the province names. Anyway, that doesn't look terribly plausible. I looked up the "western sea" references in G1. There are actually two. One is just the narration, as Dikiyoba pointed out. The other is Gnorrel (the leader of the Takers, and Trajkov's ally). Here's all the relevant text plus the text about Sucia and Dillame's location: GNORREL: "There are humans on this island, who have come from far across the western sea" MASHA: "We are people from land far away. Icy land, harsh, across sea. We are great explorers, so we came here." This makes sense. No Shaper has ever crossed the western sea. Some consider it to be impassable. ENDING: You depart Sucia island at last, setting course for the mainland. The island was not as remote as you imagined it. It is only fifty miles from the nearest Shaper settlement. Fifty miles and two centuries. In but a day, you arrive at the coastal settlement of Dillame. There are a dozen Shapers there, working to tame this wild coast, populate it with friendly fauna, and make it safe for settlement.