alhoon

I would like to start a discussion about Tuldaric. This discussion has spoilers. Tuldaric was one of the Shapers that were convinced in Sucia to help the Serviles. Being a genius and using the "little scrolls" he managed to find a not-safe way for Serviles to actually be able to cast magic, one of the most important developments in the history of the Rebellion. I believe the Servile Rebel characters from GF4 and GF5 have undergone Tuldaric's ritual, not the cultist-path. As time progressed, Tuldaric started dipping into the cannisters a bit too hard. And the result was more or less what one could expect: He became increasingly detached (like you do at 10+ canisters, way ahead of the 5+ canister thing), powermad and increasingly reckless. I believe seeing Tuldaric's degeneration / evolution is the reason the Awakened put a stop on the use of Canisters, as they said "eh... no. Better safe than sorry" breaking away from the Takers and Barzhites that are "better powerful than sane". However, even as detached as he has become, lost in the cannister madness he still supports the Serviles. If you talk to him, he will admit he rarely thinks about politics anymore in his pursuit of power but he says that Elijah convinced him - and apparently he remains convinced because he does help the Awakened directly. He is still stopping his mad research and self-empowerment to help Serviles. Thus, it was apparent to me, even from O-GF2: Tuldaric slowly turned from Awakened to moderate-Taker. Even some of his dialogue as he goes around is "we will die" and "we need to fight". Which could be surmised as the "Take our Free" suicidal stance of the Takers that so moves me. Fight to the bitter end even at the cost of you life, because that's how much freedom is worth. Live free, die free. Tuldaric Exactly the kind I wanted from the Awakened. He knows the Shapers are coming, he is jacking up his power and is willing to fight. He has sacrificed his sanity in the process. I don't blame the Awakened for not following suit. Or Carnelian that prefers to be a meh Shaper than go mad. But I also don't blame the Awakened that are willing to dip into the canisters although not go as crazy as Tuldaric/The Takers. I was fine with Tuldaric being practically a Taker thinking that he is an Awakened. I was more than fine. That's the leader I wanted for the Awakened: a very powerful genius (even if reckless) that still wants Serviles to be free and expects the battle, not naive, passive Pinner. And then: In my previous Geneforge 2 run, I have not played that area (or if I did, I forgot). O_O What?!?!? Tuldaric, no! A lifecrafter using Rogues as target practice?! That's... Barzhite talk! Not even the majority of Shapers would say something like that! They purge rogues, they don't keep them for target practice. Some butthole Shapers keep it in the back of their mind which is one of the many reasons why I hated that guardian outside Rahul's fort in GF3. A few takers I could see being so reckless in their pursuit of results / farming of power. I can also see the pragmatism of killing the rogues for components (I do that too ) . Not the monstrous thing the Shapers do that Shape Ghalks to pluck out their eyes, but since the creation has to be put down, at least keep it away from people till it is also beneficial to grab a few scales. I really hope that servile guard is misrepresenting the situation. That the "keep them as target practice" means something more akin to "let's test our new destructive techniques on some enemies we have in a controlled environment, rather than do what the Shapers do by making creations fight to the death in the Foundry (GF5) or the Barzhites in that arena" than "let's play by killing things! " or "Let's not put down this dangerous rogue; lock it there and then let Jimmy and Bob kill it, they need the practice." Now, I know what you think: "Dude, don't you go out of your way to kill things to get XP?" ehh... yes, but I don't herd them in places so that I can kill them at my leisure or if they are too low level for me, to let my apprentices kill them for the XP.

Depends on the Shaper's level and the Shaper's preparedness, really. Strahd is similar to a nasty agent, IMO. - He is strong in magic. - He is modest in attacks - and has "leaching" attacks - He is meh in minion-mancy; aka making golems (gargoyles) and undead and of course, something the Shaper could immediately misconstrue as Shaping: The Strahd's Malferic Meld spell which he uses to make... Creations. But his creations are pffft, compared to the power of Strahd. So, while Strahd is a mid-to-high level boss for a party, a Shaper makes his party. And he knows many of the tricks Strahd uses. And of course, a Shaper that had time to prepare a bunch of essence pods and healing potions would have an advantage that Strahd cannot anticipate: re-making his party. The Shaper can also provide both healing/buffs like a healer and offensive spells like a sorcerer albeit weaker than both. A Guardian would have the most "traditional" approach, I think. Make some creations for back-up and rely on his abilities and items. Like a high level fighter surrounded by a few lower-level supporters. Strahd has his tricks and traps to fall back to though but again, the Guardian can remake some of his support depending on the essence. An Agent... Well, there are those traps that Strahd made to turn against Strahd and an Agent is a fighting mage with a little support. But an agent that has mostly invested in mind magic will be at a disadvantage.

So, Context: I am playing a Shaper at level 9. I have a rotgroth, 2 drayks and a Fyora as creations (+Xander for free). After tediously going through areas to scrounge the money needed, I have gathered enough money to pay Tuldarik to teach me shaping of either Drakons or Gazers. Now, the situation: I have the Rot, it costs 28 essence and it is level 13. I am not-optimized = I have put a few points in Battle creations + the armor that gives+1 so I have Battle Shaping 4. My Rot is level 13. I have two drayks, level 13. Essence 26. They are awesome with their cone. I have a Fyora, level 12, that is my first creation and I won't absorb her. In fact, I will load game if she dies. I have 7 essence left-over after creations. I don't mind even if I go down to 4 essence, I have healing spores and curing spores if I need healing I have magic just 1 and I can get another 1 from the armor. I also love gazers from previous games and I certainly plan to eventually have a Gazer in my army. Magic 2 is, I think, enough to get a Gazer. Now, the question: Spend the money to buy Drakon Shaping, Absorb Rotgroth, Shape Drakon (which would be level 15!) at 24+7=31 essence? If yes, which single upgrade should I take? Spend the money to buy Gazer, absorb Rot, Shape Gazer (at low level, 11 I think) and then once I get a level (I am early level 9 though) boost magic Shaping a bit, and boost the Gazer with more Essence? Keep the Rot that when quick action kicks in deals a lot of damage? (I haven't been able to afford the spew acid power) I have read the Shaping Balance thread. I am trying to see what fits my "playstyle" more. Also, considering how much damage a Drakon has and how many hp has, for "about as much as the cost of a Drayk" the Drakon seems a very solid creation (also has some interesting magic). Also: I have two items that increase magic damage of creations (total 20%) and the charm that increased melee damage by 5%. If I put one of the items that gives +10% magic which most of my creations use, I have to take off the armor that gives +1 level to the rot, so it will drop to level 12.

Does anyone know which ability number is the control difficulty of a creation?

Emily.

I put 75% to the first Cryoa as the others go by that one. Drayks I made a bit more complex scaling. If you want to avoid complex scaling, use 125% on creature 190 and it should apply to all. However, I put PC made Drayk at 130 and rogue drayk (192 creature) at 120%. I put Cryodrayk (creature 195) at 140%, rogue Cryo at 130% and a Cryodrayk called "King", that I haven't found, at 145% because he sounds like a total boss.

hmmm? What more to post? As a note, I have put Drayks to 125 scale, and Cryodrayks to 140% scale. I also increased the size of Rots too.

I would like to have a thread to discuss the individual followers and their merits. Pre-Tunnel: Zora is an absolute must. I miss her ability in every battle. Also, even if you don't boost her and leave her at level 4 with all stats at 1, she is "free essence" so she really costs you nothing. You could have her in the back and just get the roar. It's not like you would reach 7 creations before she leaves. The Abandoned Thahd is a kinda pathetic level 3. Really not useful for much, at least for a Shaper. Even as a Fire-oriented Shaper, I could make better thahds. It is essence-free but pretty useless, unless you boost it, and even then, it's still a low-ish level thahd. Post-Tunnel: Xander (Edit): Xander is level 12, decent hp (150) mage with a little fire resistance (20%). He can use a quick-shot spell once per three turns and has searer as a default ranged attack. Apparently (probably bug) he can also cast searer as an ability that recharges every 3 turns, but he doesn't have to. At the time I found Xander, I was level 9 and all my creations were level 13. He is not bad, certainly not worthless since he is free. Feeling that Xander's two searers were a mistake, I gave him essence lances instead of the second searer attack, leaving searer as his default ranged attack. He is a little better than my Fyora. Certainly not impressive. Does Xander has any dialogues? Does he leave the party like Zora and the Thahd at some point or you leave him behind when he becomes too low level? Pre-Edit:

Hey... I try to remain Awakened. It is an uphill battle. You are not helping that struggle. You are pushing me to the Takers. I want the council to burn and the Awakened don't. I talked to several ex-obeyers that watched in horror as their worshipped masters brought death to them ... just because they didn't care enough to figure which servile was loyal and which was pretending.

So, in GF2-I there are more than a few signs that the common don't have it that well under the Shapers either. We are shown evidence the Shapers do cultural genocide (lost languages, lost traditions). It is also clearly said that the Common can do their factions and politics and businesses and as long as they don't violate Shaper Law they are mostly left to do their thing BUT that all goes away if a Shaper deems something they do as bad. I.e. according to what we're told in GF2, a political dynasty of the Common may collapse if a cranky Shaper deems it as antithetical to his or her goals. Or an entire religion banned if an agent with a sore tooth considers it rubbish. The Magus Complex, with the dialogue explaining the Character's own bias and disdain on foreign languages drives it home. I know there are Solai in the game, and I would love my character to meet them. I don't want my char to be xenophobic, but apparently he is.

Let's define "low-canister" and then let's define "any point". From role playing perspective or from the ending perspective?

I did that in the O-GF2.

I wouldn't call it broken. I would call it different.

It will probably have a dinosaur somewhere, that can be swapped for a fyora. And a creepy zombie that can be turned to Rothgroth and green-tinted to Rodhizon. The issue is if you can find roamer-likes, Kyshaaks and Wingbolts there.

That goes with haste and fyoras/drayks too, I think. I think that they are rolled separately but you can only get one per turn.

I just wish control was a bit of a bigger issue... There are items that give increased control and there are creations that theoretically are harder to control (at least in Mutagen, the Cockatrice was). I have played with the "courage" factor, thinking that was it, but I didn't see any difference. Does anyone know what variables in the txt control the ... control? I want to ideally make the higher tier creations slightly harder to control or if that's the path, simply hit the PC with a malus on control. My 8th 9th level Shaper walking around with 2 Drayks, a Fyora and a Rotgroth is a bit ridiculous... Also, I am the clear NPC in that party. I can barely heal / remove affliction twice. And my spells suck. Meanwhile the Drayks do easily 60-70 damage per round to multiple enemies and the rot... well, does 60-70 damage to a single enemy. For more essence. And I can't afford to buy the acid spray thing.

And I still had to kill my first Drayk in Geneforge 4, to make room for a Drakon before the final fight. I still remember it. I was a Lifecrafter. GF4 was the first Geneforge game I played and I was totally into the "Creations are our Children" narrative and angry that even loyal drayks were killed for no reason. I held off for as long as I could, but I couldn't win with a Drayk. Back then, I didn't know of the site and I haven't seen those optimized builds and all. At least, we could feed things to our Creations back then. So, before I destroyed Fireheart just because it was more convenient for me to destroy him and bring forth a Drakon than keep him alive, I fed him a lot of those juicy food I was gathering. I don't remember everything, but I remember it happened at the top of a map in the Late game. A cave. I remember I was sitting in my room. I have struggled with the decision but I already have lost in the next map twice by Alwan and his buddies. It was between Fireheart and my trusty Cryora, the one I had from the eaaaarly game. I really liked that Drayk; he was my first 3rd tier creation and he made a difference. Never went for Glaaks or Alphas. And don't get me started about the cruel "overload" of GF2. I bought it for one my Fyoras and I had to watch her slowly die in a Kamikaze way, not a boom like a pyroroamer. I had to heal her to save her.

At 10 canisters. So, since they are addictive, stop at 2-3. So if you succumb one more time to be below 5. Well, I plan to go to 6-7 canisters and be the slightly-inhuman and not-so-sociopath version. It may not be what we want but I will be what we need. And I am the player. I am totally trustworthy with the power. No, no, it is not Hypocrisy! Well, it is, but not too much. I am not Bazhral nor I intend to be. I am sad when I "have" to kill my faithful creations because I need to make better creations. (Honestly, I wish we had the ability to let them go, even if it cost something. Pay a keeper. Put up something to keep them from going rogue. Not kill them with the blood staining the floor where a totally loyal creation that has saved my life and fought for me several times was.) I keep my first Fyora even when I don't need her because she's the first Creation I made. And the original evil didn't use Self-Shaping. That's a different evil, that in the case of the Barzhites surpassed the original evil in evil-ness. That different evil, in the case of the Takers is... well, road to hell with good intentions. Some but not all Drakons lose their way, sure, but not all. Their hate for the Shapers doesn't come from Canisters but because the Shapers cannot let them exist. As long as a Shapers exist, the Drakons (and Drayks and Gazers) will not be safe. Or Geneforged persons despite the assurances you get in GF4. I don't believe them. Some Shaper will try to end you.

😢I sold it... Steel javelins do more damage than my firebolt. And I find lots and lots of "2 missile!" batons and I have a couple of Guardian Weapon Shapings that should be usable with missile weapons.

And you are absolutely right! Which is why I join the Awakened when possible. Even if I find them foolish, passive and naive. I want to bash Shaper heads and cause their empire to collapse. BUT... I also don't have what it takes. Targeting the Awakened in GF2 is indefensible for me. Not just side-casualties or pressure. But outright war and putting them in the same camp as the Shapers. And as you said, their leaders are hyper-arrogant hypocrites. So... I find myself as a disgruntled Awakened and not a moderate Taker. I wish there was another path. Convince the two to work together, find some common ground. Get the Awakened to bring forces to fight the Barzhites at least. ACTIVELY fight. Not tell you "Sabotage them". Aaaaand... kinda but not completely introduce more Shaping to the Awakened. They see Tuldaric, the greatest hero of the Rebellion going... well, you know. And they pull the plug on cannisters and self-shaping. 😕 I partially blame Carnellian for that. The Awakened have a lot of ex-Obeyers. If Carnelian and Tuldaric both said "a little self-Shaping is not that bad... 2-3 cannisters", the Serviles that still find the Shapers uber-wise would follow suit. Things would be much better for them.

Not all of them. And while the Drakons do show some Shaper-ish mentality, they do try to free the Serviles. They are Lifecrafters, not Shapers. They do not enslave their creations. They want to treat them as second-class citizens but not as slaves. The Shredbugs first and the Unbound Second are the low points of the Rebellion, I give you that. I can defend the creation and use of the Unbound - the Rebels were pushed to the corner with a hand squeezing their neck. But the Shredbugs... no. That was too far. Destroying people's food to make them cave? By bugs too powerful to be easily eradicated, bugs that would literally cut farmers to shreds? That was too far. Only Litalia was worse.

Heck no! The Takers are much more realistic than the Awakened and have much more on the side of justice than the Servants. The Servants are aware that the Shaper Council will eradicate everything and spread the ashes to the wind, hiding even the existence of this group of Serviles. The Shapers actively suppress knowledge of Rebellions. When you go to Mehdab, you are told about children playing. You meet one. The Shapers will kill them all. Lying Zackary the Deceiver, probably the person I respect the less and dislike the most in the game series (Rawal comes second) had to smuggle a kid, then a baby, from the purge in Sucia. Because the Shapers were killing even Obeyer babies, children too young to even speak, let alone "catch some dangerous ideas" from their obeyer parents. THAT is what the Shapers are. THAT is what the Servants support. Not even The Barzhites go that far. The Takers are dangerous and violently insane, I give you that. But you cannot raise and Take your Free if you are NOT violently insane. The most you can do is... keep a bunch of mountains away from the horrible tyranny of the Shapers, confined in your land till overpopulation brings you down. No, it takes the insane and the Visionaries for the world to progress and in this case, to tear down the Shaper oppression. The Awakened claim they want justice, but they just want to be left alone, and perhaps help a servile here and there. Nothing about saving the Drayks that are hunted down for the crime of existing. No justice for the thousands of Serviles that perished in Sucia, even those that worshiped the Shapers. The Awakened are weak. They don't have what it takes and they don't seek the power the Takers seek, and only the geneforge and self-shaping would give the Takers a fighting chance to bring down the Shaper Empire and liberate Creations. BUT... they are indeed dangerous lunatics. Understandable, but when they ask me to start butchering Awakened for the crime of not-thinking-like-I-do... then, they lose me. And ... have you played the future games? I don't want to spoil if you haven't. And the Barzhites? They are like Shapers on Steroids. They actively torture Creations, they are as buttholery oppressive as the Shapers and they are also violently mad. They bring the worse from both sides. Barzhal is IMO clearly the villain of GF2, a villain you can align with.

Wait, I have to buy missile weapons before I can actually use missile weapons? One level is enough or you should have bought as many levels as the weapon you use? For Shaping... I had Battle Shaping 2+1 from jerkin and I could create iron clawbugs that require 3. Same for spells. I have the Carnelian gloves and they allow me to cast level 3 spells.

Thanks, but I will stay with the Awakened for this playthrough although I may join the Takers in the next if they are not too horrible.

My advice? Save. Then do a fight with Zora which is not a creation. If your character sheet then says "You have attacked 1 times" or "You have a creation in this game" then I think you need to load. Be that as it may, using Zora to make attacks because you didn't create her may indeed break the pacifist or solo runs.