alhoon

Just something to note: When you pump shaping a creation's knowledge to 10... that creation will VERY likely go rogue. Don't make the same mistake as the Barzhites. You cannot control that thing. 

May I suggest the bonuses to stats to be scaled at 3? You can always get the strength bonus twice and some people may prefer a slight boost instead. 

But I think GF1 is balanced for NOT having the bonus. 

If hitting Gottesch is the issue, then perhaps lower his level by 2? Sometimes the simpler solution works best. 

Not to mention that Gottesch is hard but not impossible, IMO. 

I think that, honestly, "Reign of Terror into Napoleon" is a kind way to describe the Rebellion. 😁

The 30 years war, mostly based on ideology/religion, that led to 70% depopulation in some areas of Germany is closer to what it happened. Even closer, IMO, is the Chinese civil war that saw the Imperial China overturned and then the Communists with the Nationalists were fighting each other over the seer wreckage and tens of millions of lives lost. 

Ghaldring is too radical and more importantly, he is not far from the Shapers himself. His faction is willing to let creations live and not bar them. But they have moved from Takers to something else. They are less tyrannical than the Shapers but they are tyrannical. They are not too harsh on creations but they want the Serviles as 2nd class citizens and the drayks as slightly-less that Drakons. It is all about power. And while that starts as meritocratic, since you have geneforge - way and cannister - way to power, very soon it will be "who the ones in power like? That one gets cannisters and power". 

Greta was right to overthrow Ghaldring. And I say that as a 100% pro Rebel. A lot of Lifecrafters (Drakons or that cannister junky human from GF4) were starting to behave like Shapers. There were Drakons that were openly saying the quiet part out loud: that not all creations will be equal once the dust settles. 

How long before we hear "This is against Drakon Law!" and "Common / Drakons" ? 30 years? 50? Not even a century. 

I would be very glad if the Rebellion was as destructive as the French Revolution  and had a similar end, cause after Napoleon and the corrupt directorate, things improved. 

Two nations facing each other over the sheer horror has worked in the past. The Cold War didn't end in bombings. There would be border wars and shadow wars and all, but through this, there would be ideological evolution. There will be those that will be more moderate without being assassinated or executed. 

21 minutes ago, oceanes said:

thinking that the best she can do is ensure the safety of her own people, of Medab and the mountains. She might even be right.

You are right there... we don't know if Pinner is actually right. 

The Takers did it. Or well, have a very good chance to, in GF5. But they are much more energized and radical. And they have broken far to many eggs to make that omelette. 

But then, it comes down to this, in my opinion: the Awakened should have tried. There are millions of suffering serviles. The Awakened should be trying to liberate them all. Pinner's plan will have the Awakened in defense. And creative as the Serviles are and Slow to change as the Shapers are, eventually, at 40 years, or 70 years or 100 years, the Shapers will make something that can beat the flying Drakons. 

ESPECIALLY if we consider that Tuldaric is losing his interest in the survival of the Awakened. Or that he lost his mind and at some point in those years, they Awakened will have to fight a difficult civil war to take him down when he moves from dangerously mad to actively dangerous. Tuldaric may well throw the Awakened version of the Unbound out, thinking he can control them and without regard of what happens if he is wrong. His "I will try it because I want to. Oh, and if I fail we all die. Happens." mentality. 

4 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

 

I highly doubt that. He already picked his side and presumably has bad history with the other factions. The Takers especially would probably try and eat him just for showing his face in Zhass-Uss.

 

 

Considering the number of magic-wielding serviles at the start of the game, it's quite possible he did this before the canister madness madness started, back when he was still idealistic about the Awakened and very invested in their cause. Even if it was after the canister madness, there's a good chance he did it just to prove it could be done. The Awakened gave him a difficult challenge and completing it was a test of his skill and mastery that no other shaper was capable of until this point. I can definitely see a mad scientist type doing that outside of moral convictions.

He is so valued by the other factions that his history with them would be forgiven. The Takers would probably try to eat him on his way - like they try to eat the Player Character - but they would accept him. He may have just not considered it, but I am sure he would be welcomed into the Barzhites and reluctantly accepted by the Takers. They would need Tuldaric to finish their work, both of them, in my opinion. The first thing they ask is for his knowledge so they can continue. 

I agree that Tuldaric made his machine before the start of the cannister madness. What I was talking about it is that Tuldaric still does it. He is the only one that can use that machine. Every so often he stops his research to go modify a Servile or even human (or, well, Thahd 😉I didn't say he's not crazy). 

3 hours ago, mikeprichard said:

see Barrier of the Wind, which incidentally Tuldaric has apparently lost all interest in despite its planned importance to the survival of the Awakened)

O_O 
What? Are you sure? I kinda remember from the Originals that Tuldaric was not too much involved in the later stages, but from what I recall, the Barrier of the Wind is something Tuldaric started and mapped out the entire process. I.e. as a researcher, he has done his part and it is now about finding the missing parts and the mechanics to apply his work and turn it to machines. 

Does Tuldarik or Pinner or the researches state that Tuldaric has lost his interest? Or you assume that because he doesn't get involved?

3 hours ago, mikeprichard said:

Agree with Mech's overall take here - Jeff's central theme is the potential for power to corrupt even the best intentions.

On that we agree, and poor Tuldaric has lost his mind and has become a powermad Taker. He is certainly corrupt and has lost his way. He still have allegiance to the Awakened, he still believes all Creations and people are equals but now it is the power-mad take. Tuldaric still teaches his apprentices, he just doesn't modify them. He creates powerful magic and passes it down to Serviles. 

But he has gone gaga. I don't think he would ever betray the Awakened. But he paradoxically doesn't seem to value life much any more, even his own from the way he reacted when I told him about the Infernal. I agree that at some point, the Awakened would have to take down Tuldaric. But that time is not yet and it will not be for some time. Pinner is a greater problem for the Awakened than Tuldaric, IMO.  

7 minutes ago, Hyperion703 said:

As an aside, I have to wonder if infernals are any worse than shapers. [..] my body count in the Drypeaks alone likely dwarfs all five of theirs combined,

Five? Five Infernals?! 

You need probably 4 18 level creations to take down one with that resistance. 

So far I haven't used a canister (and I plan to, but I haven't foudn the ones I want yet) but I plan to go to 7-8 canisters. Enough to get the first message that you are getting detached and the people seem more distant memory but not full cannister junky and get the message that you think of people and their lives as the background. 

Also, unless they changed the messages, at least in the previous GF, your character wondered if that power to create life is the reason the Shapers are so distant and detached. 

1 hour ago, ultra112 said:

 I mean by the time we meet he was already doing insane stuff like summoning an infernal, 

That is what the infernal implies. It is never stated by a trustworthy source. The Infernal has assumed the form of a different Shaper, not that of Tuldaric. And Tuldaric didn't shy from admitting he keeps the infernal trapped and he is well aware and uncaring that you may kill him for it. He even says "I think you shouldn't kill me". Thus, we have no actual proof that Tuldaric brought the Infernal, just that he is keeping the Infernal trapped. We have some indicators that Tuldaric did not summon the Infernal, as the Infernal has the shape of a different Shaper. 
We also don't know what Tuldaric does or plans to do with the Infernal. Yes, it is unwise to keep the Infernal there. But what is Tuldaric to do? It is next to impossible to kill that thing! He has 800 hp and 85-90% resistance to everything, at level 18. It needs an army to take it down. 
Also the "I will return to my dimension once I make sure Tuldaric is dead, trust me bro. I want nothing to do with your kind. Totally. " that the infernal tells you is in no way convincing. I have not killed Tuldaric to know what happens with the infernal but I have absolutely no reason to trust a single thing the Infernal says while I do have some reason to believe Tuldaric has some good reason for keeping it trapped. 

5 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

 He only maintains his allegiance with the Awakened because he believes it will give him enemies to test his new power and experiments on, and so that he can have allies that will supply him with materials and test subjects. He clearly did care about their cause at some point, but that doesn't even seem to register to him any more.

That is not true; he could go to the Barzites and they will welcome him. He could go to the Takers and they would accept him. Both have more to offer him. Furthermore, the only times Tuldaric stops his research and quest for power is ... to help serviles remove the Shaper limitations to their spellcasting potential. He clearly does not think like the old Tuldaric, but he still cares for the Awakened enough to go out of his way to help them. And as for the test subjects, the Takers would be much more willing to do that than the Awakened.  
While Tuldaric states clearly and sincerely he hasn't thought about the politics for a long time, he never says he believes they are fools nor he questions their decision to not use self-shaping (after they saw what it did to him and Barzhal) like the Takers do. He still supports the Awakened and their cause even if he goes through the motions. 

It is undeniable that he has lost his mind and his motives have completely shifted, but he still helps the Serviles. 

6 hours ago, oceanes said:

 It's clear that the Shapers inculcate immense mental discipline and mental focus as a prerequisite to learning Shaping, which probably includes control of emotions. 

Or so they want to believe. They say that a lot but "ability to quickly absorb information" and "some resistance to mental effects" (that focus you talk about) does not actually translate to immense mental discipline and control of emotions despite what the Shapers think. 
It is quite clear through the series that Shapers are as flawed as other human beings despite them thinking differently. There are quick-to-anger Shapers, there are many mad Shapers (not rebels, actual Shapers that are mad), there are reckless Shapers, there are naive Shapers etc. The game world is littered with the failings of Shapers and there is such a demand for people to deal with those failings that the Guardians, an entire sect of Shapers, still has purpose! 
The Shapers are quite aware that they fail more often than they succeed and thus the first thing they build before they start doing anything is heavy doors to lock "the anything" in. 

"My personal head-canon is that the Shaping process doesn't create sociopathy or megalomania as such, but rather removes the sense of caution and fear of consequences that come from a lifetime of being fragile enough to be hurt. Shapers tend to become megalomaniacal because of the Shaper worldview when raised to that state, or in the case of Drayks and Drakons, their own inherent pride and greed. " 

For some Shapers, the lucky ones, yes. But unless they changed what happens in the Barzhite side, this is the Geneforge game where we find out that cannisters cause different kind of madness to different people and how the Barzhites deal with that. 

Is that mad Barzhite that talks about shadows speaking to her around in this game? She was my favorite Barzhite. 

45 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

The Stalkthorn only appears as a player creation in training and canisters until I think Inner Gaza-Uss where it gets summoned in one fight.

 

Edit - Just checked and it wasn't used there.

That's a bit disappointing... 

26 minutes ago, Slarzahl said:

full commentary:

 

I can't say I understand that joke.

Stalkthorn: I didn't expect a quest like the Cockatrice but honestly, I have not seen a Stalkthorn in the game and I saw a lot of people willing to train you in them. There is no "ohhhh, this is a marvelous / horrid thing!!!" or anything. At least yet.

Is there a quest involving Stalkthorns that I haven't seen (I am early in the game)

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

Rly? The Cockatrice is really that bad to you?

Consider that I made my first roamer that was not pyroroamer in GF1-M after playing GF2-5. That I have made a battle Alpha in GF4 for 5 minutes before reload and GF5 for a few mins. I have never seen, let alone made, an Eyebeast. I have never made an Ur-Drakon and this is the first game that I can actually make one. I have never made an ornk nor I ever managed to get their hidden canisters

9 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

Hmm interesting, I suppose that a shaper with enough amount of essence and healing items could make due with contending with Strahd, I suppose Strahd would be surprise when a Shaper remakes his creations on the spot and re-enters the fray. also Strahd is weak to radiant damage right, I wonder if shaping a cockatrice against him would be suitable?

I was not impressed with the cockatrice so I never Shaped it. I haven't considered whether it does radiant damage. I faced a few in mutagen and I remember little from them.

I always go mixed-party but Fire priority + Blessing/healing and let my creations do the work. I considered, and I am still considering, danking 4 skill points to missile + item to get to missile 2 to use some nice batons but my firebolt would soon eclipse that damage so it would be a waste. 

Rotdhizons were often good in other games too. I don't know their possible upgrades as I couldn't make any. 

378 essence and you go 2 Gazers, 2 Rots? May I ask why "fully upgraded" Rots and Gazers instead of having them 1-2 levels lower and avoid some meh powers (the Rotgroth has some easily avoidable, I don't know about the Rotdhizon and the Gazer) and getting another Gazer in there? 

I followed your advice and I bought the Drakons. I didn't make any though till I got to level 10. I will make one now, after I ... well, the Rotgroth is not with us any more. 

The question now is for the Drakon: Daze (I am crap in mind, but I do have it, although I don't cast it) or Chain lighting? 

EDIT: Chain lighting was a complete waste. I wanted the drakon for more "single target" only, as I have the two level 14 drayks for cones. And the Fyora, my character and Xander that all together do as much area damage as a Drayk in two rounds - if I use two crystals. 

The chain lighting looks veeeery impressive graphic-wise aaaaand... it is not worth it. And since the Drakon practically doesn't need rechargable powers as it is, the recharge power I got for him so he could spam his chain lighting is also a waste. That's 14 essence down the drain... 

I should have made an Ur-drakon unupgraded or better put 1 level on the Drakon and get daze. 

I would like to start a discussion about Tuldaric. This discussion has spoilers. 

Tuldaric was one of the Shapers that were convinced in Sucia to help the Serviles. Being a genius and using the "little scrolls" he managed to find a not-safe way for Serviles to actually be able to cast magic, one of the most important developments in the history of the Rebellion. I believe the Servile Rebel characters from GF4 and GF5 have undergone Tuldaric's ritual, not the cultist-path. 

As time progressed, Tuldaric started dipping into the cannisters a bit too hard. And the result was more or less what one could expect: He became increasingly detached (like you do at 10+ canisters, way ahead of the 5+ canister thing), powermad and increasingly reckless. I believe seeing Tuldaric's degeneration / evolution is the reason the Awakened put a stop on the use of Canisters, as they said "eh... no. Better safe than sorry" breaking away from the Takers and Barzhites that are "better powerful than sane". 

However, even as detached as he has become, lost in the cannister madness he still supports the Serviles. If you talk to him, he will admit he rarely thinks about politics anymore in his pursuit of power but he says that Elijah convinced him - and apparently he remains convinced because he does help the Awakened directly. He is still stopping his mad research and self-empowerment to help Serviles. 

Thus, it was apparent to me, even from O-GF2: Tuldaric slowly turned from Awakened to moderate-Taker. Even some of his dialogue as he goes around is "we will die" and "we need to fight". Which could be surmised as the "Take our Free" suicidal stance of the Takers that so moves me. Fight to the bitter end even at the cost of you life, because that's how much freedom is worth. Live free, die free. 
Tuldaric Exactly the kind I wanted from the Awakened. He knows the Shapers are coming, he is jacking up his power and is willing to fight. He has sacrificed his sanity in the process. I don't blame the Awakened for not following suit. Or Carnelian that prefers to be a meh Shaper than go mad. But I also don't blame the Awakened that are willing to dip into the canisters although not go as crazy as Tuldaric/The Takers. 

I was fine with Tuldaric being practically a Taker thinking that he is an Awakened. I was more than fine. That's the leader I wanted for the Awakened: a very powerful genius (even if reckless) that still wants Serviles to be free and expects the battle, not naive, passive Pinner. 

And then:

In my previous Geneforge 2 run, I have not played that area (or if I did, I forgot). 

O_O 

What?!?!? Tuldaric, no!  
A lifecrafter using Rogues as target practice?! That's... Barzhite talk! Not even the majority of Shapers would say something like that! They purge rogues, they don't keep them for target practice. Some butthole Shapers keep it in the back of their mind which is one of the many reasons why I hated that guardian outside Rahul's fort in GF3. 

A few takers I could see being so reckless in their pursuit of results / farming of power. 
I can also see the pragmatism of killing the rogues for components (I do that too ) . Not the monstrous thing the Shapers do that Shape Ghalks to pluck out their eyes, but since the creation has to be put down, at least keep it away from people till it is also beneficial to grab a few scales. 

I really hope that servile guard is misrepresenting the situation. That the "keep them as target practice" means something more akin to "let's test our new destructive techniques on some enemies we have in a controlled environment, rather than do what the Shapers do by making creations fight to the death in the Foundry (GF5) or the Barzhites in that arena" than "let's play by killing things! " or "Let's not put down this dangerous rogue; lock it there and then let Jimmy and Bob kill it, they need the practice."   

Now, I know what you think: "Dude, don't you go out of your way to kill things to get XP?" ehh... yes, but I don't herd them in places so that I can kill them at my leisure or if they are too low level for me, to let my apprentices kill them for the XP. 

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

Come to think of it I do wonder how will a shaper defeat Strahd von Zarovich if they ever able to reach to that point?

Depends on the Shaper's level and the Shaper's preparedness, really. Strahd is similar to a nasty agent, IMO. 
- He is strong in magic.
- He is modest in attacks - and has "leaching" attacks
- He is meh in minion-mancy; aka making golems (gargoyles) and undead and of course, something the Shaper could immediately misconstrue as Shaping: The Strahd's Malferic Meld spell which he uses to make... Creations. But his creations are pffft, compared to the power of Strahd. 

So, while Strahd is a mid-to-high level boss for a party, a Shaper makes his party. And he knows many of the tricks Strahd uses.
And of course, a Shaper that had time to prepare a bunch of essence pods and healing potions would have an advantage that Strahd cannot anticipate: re-making his party. 

The Shaper can also provide both healing/buffs like a healer and offensive spells like a sorcerer albeit weaker than both. 

A Guardian would have the most "traditional" approach, I think. Make some creations for back-up and rely on his abilities and items. Like a high level fighter surrounded by a few lower-level supporters. Strahd has his tricks and traps to fall back to though but again, the Guardian can remake some of his support depending on the essence. 

An Agent... Well, there are those traps that Strahd made to turn against Strahd and an Agent is a fighting mage with a little support. But an agent that has mostly invested in mind magic will be at a disadvantage. 

So, Context: I am playing a Shaper at level 9. I have a rotgroth, 2 drayks and a Fyora as creations (+Xander for free). After tediously going through areas to scrounge the money needed, I have gathered enough money to pay Tuldarik to teach me shaping of either Drakons or Gazers. Now, the situation: 

I have the Rot, it costs 28 essence and it is level 13. I am not-optimized = I have put a few points in Battle creations + the armor that gives+1 so I have Battle Shaping 4. My Rot is level 13. 
I have two drayks, level 13. Essence 26. They are awesome with their cone. 
I have a Fyora, level 12, that is my first creation and I won't absorb her. In fact, I will load game if she dies. 

I have 7 essence left-over after creations. I don't mind even if I go down to 4 essence, I have healing spores and curing spores if I need healing 

I have magic just 1 and I can get another 1 from the armor. I also love gazers from previous games and I certainly plan to eventually have a Gazer in my army. Magic 2 is, I think, enough to get a Gazer. 

Now, the question: 

Spend the money to buy Drakon Shaping, Absorb Rotgroth, Shape Drakon (which would be level 15!) at 24+7=31 essence? If yes, which single upgrade should I take? 

Spend the money to buy Gazer, absorb Rot, Shape Gazer (at low level, 11 I think) and then once I get a level (I am early level 9 though) boost magic Shaping a bit, and boost the Gazer with more Essence? 

Keep the Rot that when quick action kicks in deals a lot of damage? (I haven't been able to afford the spew acid power)

I have read the Shaping Balance thread.

I am trying to see what fits my "playstyle" more. Also, considering how much damage a Drakon has and how many hp has, for "about as much as the cost of a Drayk" the Drakon seems a very solid creation (also has some interesting magic). 

Also: I have two items that increase magic damage of creations (total 20%) and the charm that increased melee damage by 5%. If I put one of the items that gives +10% magic which most of my creations use, I have to take off the armor that gives +1 level to the rot, so it will drop to level 12. 

Does anyone know which ability number is the control difficulty of a creation? 

2 hours ago, Slarzahl said:

 

If you select Sorceress, of course, then, well...

Emily. 

I put 75% to the first Cryoa as the others go by that one. 

Drayks I made a bit more complex scaling. If you want to avoid complex scaling, use 125% on creature 190 and it should apply to all.

However, I put PC made Drayk at 130 and rogue drayk (192 creature) at 120%. 

I put Cryodrayk (creature 195) at 140%, rogue Cryo at 130% and a Cryodrayk called "King", that I haven't found, at 145% because he sounds like a total boss. 

3 minutes ago, mikeprichard said:

It's possible to mod the fyoras to be smaller (which I've done based on tips from alhoon in both G1 Mutagen and G2 Infestation). I'm confirming a few things, and was planning to post more about it within the next couple weeks in the topic at https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/30152-miscellaneous-mod-related-discussion. In principle, it should therefore also be fairly simple to mod the drayks etc. to be larger, if that's your preference.

hmmm? What more to post? As a note, I have put Drayks to 125 scale, and Cryodrayks to 140% scale. I also increased the size of Rots too. 

I would like to have a thread to discuss the individual followers and their merits. 

Pre-Tunnel:

Zora is an absolute must. I miss her ability in every battle. Also, even if you don't boost her and leave her at level 4 with all stats at 1, she is "free essence" so she really costs you nothing. You could have her in the back and just get the roar. It's not like you would reach 7 creations before she leaves. 

The Abandoned Thahd is a kinda pathetic level 3. Really not useful for much, at least for a Shaper. Even as a Fire-oriented Shaper, I could make better thahds. It is essence-free but pretty useless, unless you boost it, and even then, it's still a low-ish level thahd.  

Post-Tunnel: 

Xander (Edit): Xander is level 12, decent hp (150) mage with a little fire resistance (20%). He can use a quick-shot spell once per three turns and has searer as a default ranged attack. 
Apparently (probably bug) he can also cast searer as an ability that recharges every 3 turns, but he doesn't have to. At the time I found Xander, I was level 9 and all my creations were level 13. He is not bad, certainly not worthless since he is free. 

Feeling that Xander's two searers were a mistake, I gave him essence lances instead of the second searer attack, leaving searer as his default ranged attack. He is a little better than my Fyora. Certainly not impressive. 

Does Xander has any dialogues? Does he leave the party like Zora and the Thahd at some point or you leave him behind when he becomes too low level? 

Pre-Edit:

Update: I was a fool, I forgot to check the "ranged" box. Apparently Xander can fire searer normally -and- as a special power. Probably a bug.
Xander is level 12, decent hp (150) mage with a little fire resistance (20%). I found him at level 9 and he is level 12. I am... not impressed. Sure, he can cast Searer and that quick-shot spell but that's once per 3 turns! other than that, he would have to rely on punches... 😕 
Add to that, that all my creations are 13 level. He is not bad level-wise and he has more hp than my 13-level Fyora (although less than my Drayks and Rotghroth) - but his ranged potential is limited and his melee attacks are weak - not to mention he's not build to last in melee with 5% armor and 150 hp.  

Do I miss something here? 
Is Xander somehow "upgradable"? (If not, I can take care of that...  ) Does Xander has any dialogues? Does he leave the party like Zora and the Thahd at some point or you leave him behind when he becomes too low level? 

I remember X from the O-GF2 and I kept him for some time as he was not bad; he was leveling up.

35 minutes ago, earanhart said:

They'd just need to display its merits to the Council.

Hey... I try to remain Awakened. It is an uphill battle. You are not helping that struggle. You are pushing me to the Takers. I want the council to burn and the Awakened don't. I talked to several ex-obeyers that watched in horror as their worshipped masters brought death to them ... just because they didn't care enough to figure which servile was loyal and which was pretending. 

So, in GF2-I there are more than a few signs that the common don't have it that well under the Shapers either.

We are shown evidence the Shapers do cultural genocide (lost languages, lost traditions). It is also clearly said that the Common can do their factions and politics and businesses and as long as they don't violate Shaper Law they are mostly left to do their thing BUT that all goes away if a Shaper deems something they do as bad. I.e. according to what we're told in GF2, a political dynasty of the Common may collapse if a cranky Shaper deems it as antithetical to his or her goals. Or an entire religion banned if an agent with a sore tooth considers it rubbish. 

The Magus Complex, with the dialogue explaining the Character's own bias and disdain on foreign languages drives it home.

I know there are Solai in the game, and I would love my character to meet them. I don't want my char to be xenophobic, but apparently he is.

1 hour ago, oceanes said:

So, question, is there any point to being a low canister use Taker in GF2? I don't think so, judging by the original ending, but I wondered if someone tried it.

Let's define "low-canister" and then let's define "any point". From role playing perspective or from the ending perspective?