alhoon

Now you lost me... so my GF3 dex-increased Greta is OK?

And what about my Vlish? (that I haven't upgraded anyway) Would they hit better if I give them dex? Not that it matters at my point in the game, since they hit very well, unlike the GF2 vlish that were missing all the time. I am thinking later if I bring forth a temporary vlish and want to boost its to hit probability.

Dex for spell or Str for ranged attack?

37 minutes ago, Bronze Ankh said:

 

The entire Geneforge series has that tooltip, and it's wrong in every game.  Dexterity does not affect attack power or accuracy for your creations, ever, not even for ranged attacks.  Instead, Strength affects attack power and accuracy for all creation attacks.  Yes, that is true in every game of the series.

O_O

That should have really be corrected at some point. I believed the toolkit. Really unprofessional if you ask my opinion. In GF3, I have been dumping a lot of points for Greta and Alwan to dexterity so they can hit easier. What a freaking waste...

Ehh... I was talking GF4-5. Should have made it clear.

Eh? Are you sure? The text says they need dexterity to hit and I saw the hit chances increase by 5% for every point of dex (by level or essence).

About the damage, I don't care if the Thahd would do a lot or a little damage. Hitting something in melee means that something (I use that against rots) will hit the Thahd (And probably kill it) so it won't cover with the nasty DOT one of my "real" creations.

I thought that ranged combat is actually better than melee even in unmoded GF4-5 and Especially in GF3 that you need 5 action points to attack. A melee combatant needs to get close which could well mean it will not have AP to hit. If you go melee, you need to invest in endurance quite early because you don't have good armor to soak damage. Yes, melee weapons are better than ranged weapons, but ranged combat has a great advantage IMO that you don't need to be there. 

I also respectfully disagree about battle creations. As a Shaper class, Clawbugs once they have poison are very good and wingbolts in GF5 are not as good as in GF4. The cost is horrendous. A Wingbolt costs far more essence than a rot and I think it costs more than a war trall. A war trall does a little less damage and has a bazillion more hp. 

Battle Alphas in GF3-5 were disappointing. Rots were good but I didn't use them. Drayks are good but expensive. Thahds are good enough in early GF4-5 for their tiny cost. But again it depends on your play style.

With Thands I played it Shaper-like; Made one, bumped dexterity so it could hit, had it punch an enemy to soak attacks. If it survived the battle, absorbed.  

If you're a dishonorable fellow, clawbugs are also good one-shot creations; Hide and send out two temporary clawbugs to poison a few enemies before they die horribly. Then the poison would kill the enemies in GF5 because it lasts for a long time. 

In GForge games it completely depends on your play style. When I play with a Shaper, I pump intelligence a lot, to get many and high tier creations. Moderate blessing magic to support them and a little battle magic to throw a spell although I miss a lot. I do not invest heavily in Shaper skills BTW. Putting a few skill points and keeping a set of equipment that boosts my shaping skills for when I need to make more. I rely a lot on leveling my creations. However my playstyle is "load if you lose a creation" mostly, so I can level my creations far easier than load-skimpy players.

Well, I'll avoid it anyway.

That's a very good question... 

Nah. Not yet at least. 

Unaligned good ending? 

Damn that game is complicated.

If I load my save before leaving the area after having killed all faction bosses except Syros and the Awakened, and I go and kill the Awakened and sabotage the Barrier of Winds... do I get it? 

EDIT: Actually the answer to that is kinda spoily. Please ignore the question.

I won't check the endings thread, but ... there are 4 factions, aren't they?

Haven't gone through the Takers yet, since I assume I will have to go kill Awakened for no reason other than they disagree with the Takers. In wars moderates are the first to be attacked.

If the Awakened managed to keep the Shapers in a stalemate for years with a small bunch of flying Drakons, I expect the Takers to kick the Shapers really bad with the Geneforge and their many Drakons. Except if they go the tried-and-true Drakon way of "we cull the weak to feed the strong" instead of allowing the Shapers to kill the slightly-weaker Drakons while they keep the good ones for reserve.

We'll see. Takers I believe I can do.

Barzites are out of the question and while I would reasonably do Shapers for complicity, Lying Zakary the Deceiver has alienated me so much that I can't bring myself to go to him. I wish I would have him killed and replaced...

Well, I think she did lie to a degree + her memory has huge holes as she admits herself. More or less, Litalia has conditioned herself thrice in her life. Even without canisters there's BOUND to be something loose in there. Now, add Canisters. And a reason to lie.

I am not saying Litalia is a reliable source. She even thinks she can de-shape herself by teaching herself to smile.

However, I have to ask now: you said she spent more time with canisters than any other major character in the series. Is there any minor character in the series that used as many? I think Litalia broke the limit. The quite insane Phariton had like 20-30 canisters. Jarred was downing canisters to the point that the Drakons were not considering him human. But I believe Litalia surpassed both of them. She had a "head start" before the Rebellion officially began and she lived waaay longer than Phariton. Even if she stopped the Canisters say a couple years after Ashen Isles, that would give her several years of canister abuse with far more resources in order to get canisters than Phariton.

Perhaps the Monarch had used more. But I don't remember very well what was in his notes. I remember he passed from Sucia. He could have been one of Barzahl's apprentices, but he was too old for that. He has certainly mastered the honored taker strategy of "Throw a couple of spawners and hope one doesn't lose the right tokens."

Speaking of those tokens: Hilarious how the Shapers snubbed the control Baton in GF4 while using the technique in GF5 and the technique being used in GF2 (and perhaps GF3. I have to move with that game dammit).

I still recall Miranda's sneer. "What a primitive method. When you're making monsters you want something more to protect yourself from them than a special stick". Guess what Miranda: It worked nicely for the Takers that were close to overwhelm their enemies, worked for the Monarch until he was defeated and worked for the Shapers, the serviles of the Shadow Road and the rebels in the wastelands east of the Line.

I agree with most but:

- I like Drayks. I dislike Drakons, but I like Drayks. Yet, in a war you go after the enemy you like too. When the Red Baron was killed in WW1, the English buried him with great honor... but they were trying to kill him. War is a strange thing.

- I think the most reasonable explanation is that the Shapers arrived when Ghaldring was mature; the text never said that whatever was behind the door was weak. It said it was growing stronger. Still, I haven't spoken with him in GF3 to learn about that.

- I think Litalia's changing views reflect the author's changing views on the matter more than her lying, although there's evidently a good deal of exaggeration there; Even GF4 Litalia would need at least 20 Shapers to effectively purge everything in the Valley. After all they needed to have people hold down areas so that Rogues wouldn't escape.

- In GF4, they're not happy to accept a geneforged rebel. Alwan is less reluctant than Crowley but both are anything but happy.

- In GF4-5 some of the Shapers are willing to stand down because they're losing the war. Simply put, without terrible destruction and whole provinces lost the Shapers wouldn't lose their appetite for war from what we see in GF4-5.

Even in GF4, with half of Terrestia in Rebel hands, the Shapers aren't willing to discuss peace because they're winning, despite taking losses and lost provinces.

In GF5, with the Shaper forces in a crippling for the Shapers Standoff, only Astoria is willing to discuss peace. Without Astoria's diplomacy, the Shapers continue the war even if the Rebels kill four of their councilors.

In short, from what I've seen in GF4-5, the Shapers are so arrogant and attached to their power that they will not accept peace unless totally broken and humiliated. For this to happen, Terrestia has to burn, not them losing war in a land that's not holding their people.

I agree that the Barzites had people that wouldn't be terrible and that people that weren't totally canister-mad. But from the text, I think the Awakened were too forgiving.

7 hours ago, Cold Hearted Trach said:

So, what I was saying to Triumph before, when it was spoilersville for you, about an unusual and potential successful ending, was in reference to the Awakened.  To wit:

 

 

Hmmm... Interesting take. However the finale text ends some years, with the Shapers sending perpetual armies against the Serviles. They simply cannot abide my friends to exist. Also, they were "pleased" that I killed lying Zakary the Deceiver, that I killed Barzahl, that I destroyed the Canister-factory, that I killed the Taker bosses. And still condemned me to death.

I don't think the open-heartedness of the Awakened would get them any favors. Astoria was probably not a councilor and she hasn't tasted defeat nor the horror of Unbound burned cities, no war fatigue. Shema... I don't know. But still. The Shapers had less to lose by perpetual war (according to them ) than writing off Drypeaks and erasing all mentions of its existence.

I mean, come on!. Declare everything beyond the secret tunnel "Barred", build a big nice wall, put a few dozen Turrets there and a few guardians and prohibit everyone from mentioning what's there. They have done it in the past, as we learn in GF3-4 at least (and it's not that Alwan is open about his Spawners and his shaping-capable servant minds).

But the Shapers had to be caricature authoritarian buttholes and unable to accept defeat by Creations even if they could easily sweep it under the rug.

Proving the Takers right.

My view on the Awakened ending: I still think they're too good to survive. Yes they get some years of war-torn existence. But the Shapers don't seem to be letting go by the end. It was as I feared; they are too moral for a war. In most civil wars I've read about, it's the moderates that get crushed first.

The quests and the ending completely validate my view of "Awakened are the only good faction I've seen in GF" but they're reluctance to kill Barzahl (I had to do it myself), Lying Zakary the Deceiver (I had to do it myself), Syros (Didn't touch him) etc makes them hopelessly idealistic.

In the Awakened ending, Taker Drayks escape. Syros is gone, not killed. Barzites are allowed to join, they're just not trusted because they're mad; their heinous crimes against serviles and Creations forgiven.

I wanted a bit more blood on my hands. A less "clean" faction. I practically had to do the dirty stuff myself, without anyone rewarding me.

Awakened dissolving the Takers: The Geneforge still stands though. I didn't destroy it since I was expecting that the Shapers would never accept peace with Serviles. And with Tuldaric, bless his soul for all he has done, being let's say ... not-exactly-sane and perhaps-too-ambitious I have doubts about leaving it standing. But it will come a time that the Awakened will start losing against the horde of enemies the Shapers send to their door.

And that's when flying uber-Drakon lifecrafters would come in handy.

And Tuldaric would have the guts to do it.

GHAAAAAAAAAAAALDRIIIIIIIIIIIING! ! ! !

Do we have confirmation about it? That it was indeed Ghaldring? "Final Creation of Easss" you say... Ghaldring says he was one of the first*.

And... if Ghaldring is still there growing, and he's fully grown when Litalia reached his place, how long did it get to the Council to clean through the tiny factions fighting among them? All together the Drypeaks feel "smaller" than a single Shaper Province and at that time, the Shapers had 9. Well, perhaps the Ashen Isles were smaller\less populous\less advanced but it doesn't feel that way.

As a note: When I just left the place without finishing anything, I didn't get the note about that door.

*Of course, there are many variants of Drakons in the Drypeaks; Ghaldring could be the first of the Drakons as I know them. So far I can't say I've seen many GF2 Drakons able to actually Shape instead of using Shaping vats like those Akhari Blaze loves so much. They are certainly worse than the GF4-5 Drakons. (Can't speak about GF3 Drakons, I saw just one and he killed me pretty quickly).

Man, that hint, that behind the door is Ghaldring, gives a whole new meaning to the place. I really thought he would be to Gazak-Uss. I guess he's not a "Failed" experiment. And I damn wonder how the Shapers even got in there.

 Learned Pinnar asked me to go and be an envoy to the Shaper Council.

Seriously.

I plan to do it just to see the ending, but that's quite... well, beyond words. The Awakened really think that the Council will deal with them, after what happened to them in Succia.

EDITL

Saw the ending!

Also, the finale ends with ... a door (?) that hides something...  Do I need to do the other endings to see what it is?

Marjan: Why is that Servile so afraid of the Awakened? L.Varkan told me he's unstable. He doesn't seem completely sane true, but he calls the Barrier of the winds "My prison".

But I felt really good when I heard L.Varkan say that the air will be thick with Drakons ready to defend the Awakened. Thinking of it, a strong show of force has a slight chance to convince the Shapers to stay away and forget about the Serviles of Medhab. Or at least, earn the Serviles a few years of freedom before the Shapers decide to violate any truce and destroy them for good.

Meh, the final quest (Kill the Taker bosses) seems near-impossible for someone that blazed through the game without picking up items from the floor or clearing areas for XP.
On the other hand... I have my leadership and mechanics at legendary levels (like 15 or so). I may have to do this the non-combat way.
I am surprised L.Pinnar didn't tell me to destroy the Geneforge. I mean, OK, kill the 3 insane Drayks (Syros is exempt for some reason). What stops the Drakons from making new ones? As insane as the previous ones with an axe to grind.
Syros is not targeted though.

And then, "we are ready to meet the outside world"
O_O HECK NO!, we are not! We have like ... 40 drakons? 50? 100? With Takers still around and angry and Barzites with their armies (that I sabotaged on my own).
With the Barrier of the Winds we'll be able to hold off the weakened Takers, for a time, and the Barzites since I sabotaged their armies although nobody asked me to. Get attacked by Shapers? We're toast.

Beneri-Uss Entry: 4 guardian statues. Who would think the Takers would honor the Shapers? It is kinda sloppy IMO to put those there. Fancy columns would do better, or nothing at all.
Of course, the next step I take, I find my target: Rakkhus. Surrounded by a good dozen creations. Load. Go through the pantry. Rakkhus walks in... alone. My Vlish keep him immobile and My drakons make short work of him.

Beneri-Uss Shaping: Exactly what I was afraid of. A geneforge + Puresteel refining and a Shaping facility to dwarf the Barrier of Winds. The Awakened were stumbling even before the takers had the chance to put this facility to use.
It seems it was a sprint contest in the valley of who would finalize and create mass Shaping facilities. But unlike the Awakened, the Barzites had their canisters and the Takers are making a Geneforge and Puresteel. And both seem more agressive in their Shaping. And Takers have Spawners.
I wish there is an option or something to make the Awakened take over Beneri-Uss and the armories of the Barzites. That would perhaps be enough to hold off the Shapers infinitely.
Cause while the Drypeaks have some vats that make powerful creations in time... the Shapers can send hundreds of Shapers to spam hundreds of tier2 and tier3 creations led by thousands of soldiers... and I am not sure those vats are making creations fast enough.

If the Takers can't stop Litalia et co, with a geneforge, the drakons and puresteel, after the Shapers went through the loyalists, Awakened, Barzites... then I am afraid the Barrier of winds will not be enough.

The Taker Drakons seem to be as ruthless as in later games in experimentation on their own kind and eliminating weakness. Good grief, I'm glad I aligned with the Awakened even if they're the less probable to survive.

Easss & Akkat: Meh, pretty underwhelming fights. Thinking of it, perhaps there was a mechanical way to kill Easss with the geneforge or use a captive rotdhizon to fight Akkat. I explored much of the Geneforge, but I will leave Benerii-Uss Holding for later.
On the way down, I went by Rising. In fact I went Razing Rising. The moment hostilities started, the place crumbled like a ripe fruit. Barzahl's fight was completely underwhelming... I wonder whether the script was broken. OK, I've stolen all his creations and I was facing him alone with a full stack on my side. But he didn't shape anything. He barely DID anything except to miss a couple of times on my Drakons as they cut him to pieces. Fighting Drakons or Gazers was more challenging than fighting Barzahl.
And there was no "Barzahl dies!" text. No key or anything. There are doors there that I can't open. And Geth was NOT hostile although I trashed Rising and killed their boss.

Yeah, their secret plan seems well enough to defend them from the Takers and the Barzites... if they had their drakons ready already and were making more. But both the Takers and the Barzites have many of the non-flying Drakon variety, Rots, Gazers + ,much more (canisters \ geneforge). So while the flying Drakons would be well enough to "defend the narrow valleys", normal drakons and Gazers would also work. It's just that flying Drakons could move faster to "hot spots" but the Takers and the Barzites still have number superiority.

As for Spawners... worked for the Monarch. Remember that. And for the early Rebellion. I am not saying "more spawners is a good idea" (it kinda is...) I am saying "better spawners is a good idea". They are so good that by GF5, Alwan uses them. And the ones Alwan uses start creating creatures on command, not constantly. That kind of Spawner would be a very good idea.

Frankly, the Awakened have very few Shapers.

But all in all, I can't wait to see the Awakened Ending. Could it be that we won? We will see.

Poor Tuldaric... He did so much for the Serviles before he lost his mind. The best Shaper I've never met. Not that the Tuldaric I met ranks as a bad Shaper, mind you, but I really would love to meet the sane, Awakened Tuldaric that removed the magic barriers from the Serviles, gave them golems to help them build the flying drakons etc.

As for the Barrier of the winds...
Unless I miss something, while useful, this will certainly not be enough to stop the Shaper council. And the first mission being "one went rogue, we can't control it, please help" doesn't seem promising* on the new drakons sanity either.
The Shapers will simply overwhelm the Awakened with seer numbers as they have way more Shapers in their ranks.

At least so far, it seems that the Awakened are unprepared for what is coming; both by the other two factions that have several powerful creations and extremely powerful individuals and by the Shaper Council.

Why is nobody investing in Spawners? That I don't understand. A Spawner is a Shaper. The only spawners I've seen have been made from the Takers to troll their enemies. Sure, the creations are rogues but those rogues don't harm Drayks in GF2. And it seems the GF3 variants weren't harming Litalia (although she could have put them up and left quickly).

* I led the poor creature out. Of course, leaving a confused drakon alone in the wilds is not the safest thing to do, but it has a good chance to go to the Takers.

In Shath's Wastes I found a very interesting "toy" that can make creations unreliable. The text tells me that it won't be enough to stop Litalia et al and that it's not the first time people try to use such magic. It did a number on me, I can tell you that.
Later on, I found more trolling by the game creator: Opening a vat in a small building. Vlish I could take down with 2 hits. Next vat? A Rotdhizon. Killed me before I even realized what was happening.

Hmm... Learned Shath tells me the Taker serviles are not aware on how the Drayks and the Drakons make their experiments Shaper-like...
And then I found the first ever Eyebeast I encountered in Geneforge games... No description at all except "The Eyebeast moves towards you menacingly". Not the greatest introduction about these guys that I've heard about in several games and just now met.

********

Awakened. At last. Doomed or not, these people are the closest to my beliefs. If they were a bit more Taker-ish and a bit more power-hungry, perhaps they could have made it. We'll see.

I was Tuldaforged! And then I loaded cause aaaaaall being transformed gave me was the ability to learn spells that I don't have the skill to cast. It could at least give me some blessing magic or something. I can't cast those spells and most of them are not useful to me anyway.
After that much hype, the transformation was "meh". Simply unlocking abilities. Poor Awakened. No wonder they didn't survive as an ideology despite Pinar's small dock. Canisters are much better than Tuldaric's "transformation" that just unlocks abilities. Canisters give abilities.

Regardless, I'm not abandoning them to run to Takers. At least not yet. I was told about the "Barrier of the Winds" or something similar. Probably a super-weapon or super-defense to stop Litalia. Would I be able to change history and save my friends? Time will tell.
If it's another "meh, buddies that can't save you from the Litapocalypse" I may decide to jump ship and join the Takers after all. We'll see. From what I've seen in this place, Takers (having a geneforge from what I saw in the map) have by far the best chance. The Barzites can barely control their creations and can barely control their Shapers. Thinking of it, after sabotaging the pylons to fail under strain, it's a matter of time before the place descents into chaos.
The Barzites seem to have bought more than they can chew. They were too reckless with the canisters, too ambitious with the Creation armies.

As a note, Golems are completely underwhelming in this game compared to GF4-5 that they had waaay more health. They're more or less like good alphas.

Thanks.

I'm slowly working on another Geneforge 5 mod, but this one will take a couple of years.

If you encounter other problems with the mod (like inability to see the new zone) please inform us.

9 hours ago, DudeDockett said:

Hello!

 

Thanks to everyone who put in hours to get us more Geneforge content!  I am really enjoying playing though the mod!  I have encountered a bug however in the Foundry Core East.  When I try to unlock the door in the core, I am given a choice to make a creation.  However, no matter which option I pick the game bugs out.  I get the message "z5westfoundlg.txt Error: Unmatched right bracket in line 1463" followed by "Talking Error; Dialogue Script broken or absent."  If someone could help me out with this issue, I would appreciate it!  I very much would like to finish this amazing mod!

Found the bug and fixed it. Download and install the newest version and load your game. It should be fixed. You had really high mechanics to hit that bug... the bugged option is available only at mechanics 12+  

Hmm... thanks for that. I'll get to it and correct it.

And thanks for the kind words for the mod.

It would help if you told me what choices do you see, whether you have Phyllida in the party, if you have got the Key from Guardian Volgon (or something, I'm bad with names) etc. Oh, and if you can create Gazers.

I don't use the console, I didn't even know we had one, so... am I good?

Mac or PC?

That's serious, I-rage-quit-for-a-month serious stuff.