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what's your standard party?


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I want to branch out a little, my parties always seem to fall into 1 main fighter, 1 almost as good fighter with tools then a pure priest and mage. I'm going through A3 on torment with this right now and I've ended the first 3 plagues no problem since most stuff has 5% to hit my fighters and don't get close to my casters.

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I like to change things up every time I play. I once tried A2 with a team of archers with diversified subskills. Suffice to say, I ran out of ammo long before I finished chapter 2, and ended up relying on low-roll melee attacks.

Had to reload a lot.

 

I once jokingly referred to my standard party as a knife, a wall, a skeleton key, and cannon: a swordsman devoted to speed with a few points in assassination, a polearmsman devoted to strength and defense, a mage/rogue, and an archer/priest. It takes several levels to establish all of the skills necessary to exploit all of the resources in the game, and then a bit of backtracking to make up for the time (locked doors and breakable terrain, mostly), but I find it to be a well-balanced and effective team.

 

My latest party, which I'm currently running through A3 on torment, has a soldier, an assassin, an archer, and a caster.

Ammunition was only a problem at the beginning, and I took care of that by stockpiling the munitions stores from the brigand lair and the agatge tower. By the time I got to the Isle of Bilgail, I had enough of a backup supply of iron arrows that I sold off all of the stone ones; I currently switch between iron and steel, depending on the enemy, and only pick up arrows that have already been fired if they're in large quantities, or if they're steel.

 

_________________________

The Silent Assassin favors something very close to the preset party, but he likes to boost attributes to the highest XP penalties and to take his time with outdoor encounters to compensate.

That said, I don't think I've ever seen him anywhere past chapter 2 in A2.

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Usually I have two fighters (one sword and one poles - human and slith respectively) and one mage and one priest (usually human)

 

Sometimes I mix it up a bit, in A1 I played with an all female party (one soldier, rogue, cleric and hedge wizard). In the past I have gone with prefab skills (such as above) but lately I've been experimenting with all custom characters so I can spend the skill points on what I want to spend it on.

 

Right now in A3 I have a human melee sword fighter, a slith with pole skills, a nephil with archery/melee/lockpicking/mage/alchemy and a human priest.

 

All my characters get trained in weapons and either missiles or archery. Obviously my magic users do not get as good with weapons as the fighters (as they have to spend skill points on magic) but they get quite good. I give everyone points in assassination and whatnot.

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Oh I don't think about the build too much....the only reason I like custom characters is because those four points in spears that the soldiers have annoy me....when they're never going to use a spear, why have them? Same with the other points that go where you don't want them to have them.

 

Sorry if this post doesn't make sense, I can't explain it any better. smile

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I can never figure out which skills are better than others, so I just choose not to level a few awful-seeming ones like hardiness and cave lore. My mage and priest level intelligence, arcane lore, and respective mage and priest spells exclusively. One of my fighters builds up a really high tool use, but otherwise every skill I have them level goes up about equally. Then again, I couldn't beat Avernum 3 (stupid golem factory!), 4 (stupid Rentar-Ihrno!) and so far, Avernum 5 (stupid me!)

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@Toby-Linn: That's not what I meant. You should always(!) use custom characters, because of the waste of skill points. When I said don't worry too much about party build I meant you should experiment more and look to it that the characters themselves work out, and let intuition do the rest. Again, go with a 2-char or 3-char party and see what happens.

 

@feo takahari: Though I can't say much about how to improve your gameplay, I can definately say this -

Quote:
My mage and priest level intelligence, arcane lore, and respective mage and priest spells exclusively.
- level endurance. Lots of it. It's probably the most important skill of all, at least up to a very, very late stage of the game(s).
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I've never played with less than four characters, but I've thought about it.

 

Next time I play the game I might try it - one fighter, one mage and one priest....or even a two character party, one fighter and one mage/priest. Though I think that might make the game too hard for me.

 

Also, I've never recruited the pre-fab playable characters that they have available in A3 (possibly other Avernum games as well) so I might try that too one of these days.

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Originally Posted By: feo takahari
I can never figure out which skills are better than others, so I just choose not to level a few awful-seeming ones like hardiness and cave lore.

You want several levels of cave/nature lore. (A1 lets you buy it near the beginning of the game, which is nice.) It lets you avoid tedious random encounters, dig up caches, and get a few bonus encounters.

Dikiyoba.
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Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno
And try to avoid a mage/priest-combinations. If you spend your skill points and your money on too many different things, you won't become good at anything.
Actually, it's worked for me for years. There's a considerable overlap of skills used by both mages and priests, which is why I combine the two to begin with.

I don't train in any skills beyond mage & priest spells and intelligence, plus a few levels of strength (to carry back loot), dexterity, and endurance so they're not as wimpy. I also buy a little luck, just in case. I don't buy any other skill, ever, unless someone is selling it; the only real exception is potion making and tool use, and then only late in the game.
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Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno
And try to avoid a mage/priest-combinations. If you spend your skill points and your money on too many different things, you won't become good at anything.

Money is easy to get in the Trilogy. Taking a small disadvantage like sickness prone makes skill points easy to come by too.

Dikiyoba.
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Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno
Hardiness is an awesome skill, by the way. Don't neglect it.
And try to avoid a mage/priest-combinations. If you spend your skill points and your money on too many different things, you won't become good at anything.


My magepriests reached max levels but i'm not sure if they both had max lvls on mage and priest but still they were deadly at end game and earlier since they killed more enemies than fighters so got more exp (at least on A3, A1-2 I have forgot).
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Mine is:

1. Slith tank, pole weapons, assasination, quickstrike (sickness prone)

2. Nephil archer, melee weapons, tool use, gymnastics, defense (sickness prone, and strong back or fast on feet)

3. Human priest, potion making, magery (natural mage)

4. Human mage, arcane lore, magery (natural mage)

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Originally Posted By: Excalibur
Mine is:
1. Slith tank, pole weapons, assasination, quickstrike (sickness prone)
2. Nephil archer, melee weapons, tool use, gymnastics, defense (sickness prone, and strong back or fast on feet)
3. Human priest, potion making, magery (natural mage)
4. Human mage, arcane lore, magery (natural mage)


Uh, I hate to sound obtuse, but why do you make your priest a natural mage?
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I'm running A2 currently with party consisting of a human and a sith fighter and a 2 nephil priest/mages. All have sickness prone to increase xp without hurting them much. The human fighter is an elite warrior using swords and razordisks, he also happens to be my potion maker. The Sith uses spears and is also my thief, with the trait nimble fingers. Both fighers have 3 in mage and 6 in priest spells as well, allowing them to cast most of the useful spells if needed. The two priest/mages both have natural mage and bow skills. The bows allow them to do significant damage without using any SP. I've had no ammo problems due to an over abundance of steel arrows in A2.

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I'm usually a purist. One melee slith, with pole weapons, One nephil archer, a human mage, and a human priest. The way i play, all the stats that are necessary (archer:Dex,Bows,Mage: Mage spells, Int etc) are up to above ten by level 13, but every thing else is at zero. Then I start to branch out a the end of the game. It work surprisingly well, and you can usualy skip a chapter and not notice the difference.

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Another vote for mage/priests. You sacrifice some combat ability, survivability, or some very limited firepower (diminishing returns on your skill points) for huge flexibility in what you can cast and how many times you can cast it. Need two healing spells? Okay. Two sets of Ice Lances? Also okay. Plus, being able to get all your buffs set up for unexpected battles twice as quickly can turn the tide quite handily.

 

—Alorael, who found the combination even better in A1-3 than in A4 or A5, because in the earlier games your Mage and Priest skills both give you more energy to work with. Also, A3 does indeed give you Restore Energy with Natural Mage.

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Another good argument for my preferred characters, except they're all the mage/priest combo in my case. You'd be amazed how at how quickly you can heal/buff/damage/kill/whatever in combat.

 

Originally Posted By: Alorael
(diminishing returns on your skill points)
I only experience this at higher levels, when my PC's mage/priest spell skill approaches 18 (the highest I go).
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I usually make two Mage/Priests in A3. I've found it very profitable. However, I'm about to try my first two-person party. I have a couple of questions before I begin.

 

In a two-person party, is it worth investing in bows?

What exactly (statwise) do the disadvantages do, and how bad are they?

Should I invest some magic skills in the fighter?

I'm thinking about using a Slith and a Nephil. Is that ok? (don't worry, I can take a throwdown if that's bad)

 

I've never done this before, so any advice is much appreciated.

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The diminishing returns are just the result of increasing costs per point of skill as your skill rises. Instead of that 15th point in Mage you can buy quite a few in Priest.

 

In A3, I've never gotten much use out of bows. They'll add a bit of damage, but you need your skill points more than that. I'm no expert on the disadvantages, so I'll leave that and gaming the experience system to others. Fighters make terrible mages, but it's a good idea to throw some priest ability on the character by the middle of the game. If you're willing to abuse the Anama, you can get some free priest ability for the fighter without harming a mage. Finally, races don't matter much, but I've found sliths to be better than nephils.

 

—Alorael, whose mechanical understanding of A1-3 has been steadily eroding as A4-5 replaces his memories. He's currently not quite able to recall the exact effects of races and traits.

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Depending upon the game not all of the highest level mage spells are that great so when a character has both spell groups, I don't run them up to 18/18.

 

Low level mage area of effect spells are nice, but to really get damage you need to be dedicated to mage and it doesn't work as well for a fighter.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dikiyoba:

Quote:

A fighter with some mage and priest skills, a tool user with some melee, mage, and priest skills, and two mage/priests. All with a little archery for backup.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Same here. Usually I'll give all my PC's Natural Mage and Fast on Feet traits. Works like a charm.

 

Thuryl:

Quote:

In the first three Avernum games, Natural Mage gives a small bonus to the effectiveness of both mage and priest spells, although it's not really worth taking it just for that.

 

From memory, Natural Mage gives an initial +3 bonus to spell strength, which increases by +1 every 7 or so levels. That doesn't just equate to more direct damage, but also to greater targeting ability, longer spell durations, and more HP healed. By level 14 you'll be casting spells as if you had +5 in magery.

 

Compare that to Elite Warrior, which is highly over-rated. +1 to damage, and +5% to hit every 8 levels is a joke.

 

Alorael:

Quote:

Finally, races don't matter much, but I've found sliths to be better than nephils.

 

I've found nephils to be far better than sliths, simply because nephil characters almost always get the initiative (through a bonus to dex?). Having the initiative in Avernum 1-3 is often the determining factor in a difficult fight, especially in regards to mages/priests. Quite often I find myself thinking "Can I cast Arcane Shield on X before bad guy Y gets to hit him?" or "Can I cast Create Illusions before dastardly villain Z hits frail spellcaster P?"

 

And not having the initiative when fighting Dark Wyrms really sucks. "Hey whaa?" *bam* dead.

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Originally Posted By: Ghaldring
From memory, Natural Mage gives an initial +3 bonus to spell strength, which increases by +1 every 7 or so levels. That doesn't just equate to more direct damage, but also to greater targeting ability, longer spell durations, and more HP healed. By level 14 you'll be casting spells as if you had +5 in magery.


It doesn't increase with level -- at least, not in BoA. I've tested it.
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You're extrapolating results from BoA to the Avernum trilogy?

 

http://www.cheatbook.de/wfiles/avernum2.htm

Quote:

More on Natural mage from Alex: Unlock Doors level 1 is the easiest way

to see how the bonus is calculated. My result:

The bonus is incremented every 7th level, so the benefit of Natural

Mage is:

+4 at level 1

+5 at level 7

+6 at level 14 etc.

 

Funnily enough, my very limited testing seemed to imply an initial +3 to spell strength. Hmm.

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