Min-Maxing on Torment

[Slawbug]

The inevitable slartanalytical munchkin topic.

 

Before making my Torment party, I decided to look at the numbers objectively, since each PC has more skills they need to account for now, in order to take advantage of battle skills. Generally speaking, the damage increase you get out of investing in battle skills exceeds what you get out of putting the same number of skill points into the appropriate attack-based skill -- even for mages. This opens up PCs to a lot of versatility without any drawbacks, if you plan carefully.

 

I began by doing calculations for about halfway through the game -- I don't want to be miserable for 60 hours of play just to have a mildly easier fight against Dorikas. So I picked about level 20 for my model, and also allowed access to the combat skill trainer at the beginning of chapter 4. However, as I don't want to be miserable, that only applies to buying points towards combat skill; any weapon I use from day one, I train from day one. I also assumed I am dealing with Divinely Touched PCs, but I left Nephil/Slith and the second advantage up for analysis.

 

At level 20, you have access to about 180 skill points per character. I took off 20 skill points per character to account for easy points to First Aid, Arcane Lore, Nature Lore, Luck, and so on. That leaves 160 to play with. I made the following menu of different skill packages that make sense, listed with cost in skill points:

 

(50) Regular Melee: 6 points Melee/Pole + 8 points Quick Action

Lets you start with WAB, get Adrenaline around the combat trainer and Battle Fury by the end of the game. Best value out of QA. With a halberd, expect average damage of 65, 78 Slith, 90 Slith EW, before armor (25% is common but not universal) and QA (double hit about 1 in 4 times).

 

(80) Fast Melee: 10 points Melee/Pole + 8 points Quick Action

Lets you start with WAB and get Battle Fury around the combat trainer. Battle Fury gives by far the nicest damage boost, so this is pretty cool. Best value out of QA. With a halberd, expect average damage of 75, 88 Slith or EW, 100 Slith EW before armor and QA.

 

(150) Go All out on Melee:

Average damage of 95, 108 Slith or EW, 118 Slith EW before armor and QA.

 

(40) Regular Bows: 10 points Bows

Lets you start with WAB, get Adrenaline around the combat trainer and Battle Fury by the end of the game. With a longbow, expect average damage of 78 for a Nephil, before armor.

 

(70) Fast Bows: 14 points Bows

Lets you start with WAB and get Battle Fury around the combat trainer. With a longbow, expect average damage of 86 for a Nephil before armor.

 

(150) Go All out on Bows:

Average damage of 106 for a Nephil before armor.

 

(86) Priest Pack: 10 Priest Spells + 6 Intelligence

About what a Pure Spirit PC needs to get all the spells and have some SP to toss around. Expect average damage of about 65 for Smite or Divine Fire.

 

(96) Mage Pack: 10 Mage Spells + 6 Intelligence

About what a Natural Mage needs to get all the spells and have some SP to toss around. Expect average damage of about 50 for Bolt of Fire, 74 for Fireblast.

 

(30) Assortment of Spellcraft & Magery

Ups average spell damage to about 70 for Bolt of Fire, 95 for Smite or Divine Fire, 104 for Fireblast.

 

(56) Tool Use package: 14 points Tool Use

Somebody needs to get this.

 

Obviously, you want at least one mage, at least one priest, at least one physical attacker, and somebody who knows tools. Each attack type has advantages. Spells are the strongest when heavily invested in and can multitarget, but are limited in quantity. Bows are weaker, but don't run out. Melee/pole is similar to bows, but give you inconsistently better damage (from QA) and also restrict your tactical flexibility.

 

Also note that everybody wants at least one physical attack package, since everybody wants battle disciplines.

 

Now let's do the math. Spellcasters obviously want as much extra skill as they can get, since they get a good damage ramp out of it. For physical attackers, it's much less important. Tool Use takes up 56 points, which means it doesn't fit well with magic. So we want one character who just uses bows or poles, with Tool Use.

 

For spellcasters, the cheap bows package is an obvious fit: it gets them battle disciplines, gives them an attack to use when conserving or out of SP, and doesn't require them to get up close and personal. We want at least one priest and at least one mage, so that leaves the fourth character open. Available options are an all-out physical attacker, which isn't much improvement over our Tool User, or another spellcaster.

 

Now let's look at that second skill slot. Most skills can be immediately discarded. Fast on Feet sucks with the new AP system. Sharpshooter only ups bow damage by about 10, before armor. The other options:

 

A mage with NM or a priest without PS has to spend about an extra 40 skill points on their basic package. That knocks out either their extra damage pack, or their bow pack, which sucks. Plus Magical Efficiency is a lot more valuable given the nerfing of First Aid. For a PC who isn't getting all the mage or priest spells though, the value is lower, about 20-30 skill points. The other option is Elite Warrior, conferring several benefits:

- Fatigue reduction via Blademaster

- Damage reduction via Parry

- Encumbrance bonus so you can wear better armor

- For melee attackers, a little extra damage (via Blademaster)

 

The defensive bonuses make this especially nice for at least one character to have, so whoever stands in front is that much easier to keep alive.

 

In the end there's a little bit of wiggle room for personal preference, particularly for the combat-centric character. Archery is consistent and predictable; melee combat is slightly stronger in protracted fights, but less flexible. In the end I went with the following setup:

 

Nephil DT EW - Heavy archer, Tool Use

Nephil DT PS - Light archer, heavy priest

Nephil DT NM - Light archer, heavy mage

Nephil DT NM - Light archer, heavy mage/light priest

 

I split the last PC to get extra uses of Unshackle Mind and Mass Healing, while aspiring to preserve the flexible damage types (and cheap shots of Bolt of Fire) of the mage. Also to get a second user of Haste, which has such a low duration now that you really need dedicated mages casting it. I think Unshackle Mind especially is worth the mildly lower damage compared to just having a second mage, but we'll see.

 

The first 3 levels or so were a little tough, with one or two fights I had to reload forever (Dirty Desiree). After that the second level of DT bonuses kicked in, my spellcasters started to have decent SP, and things have been pretty smooth sailing.

[Randomizer]

Before you get too far into the game let me correct some misconceptions.

 

The chapter 4 trainer isn't available until you've done the main quest (Mad Sentinels in the Sentinel Workshop). So don't expect any bought weapon skills until then. Spellcasters can usually wait until here to train and spend skill points for the archery skills since they are more useful in the early game.

 

Jeff weaken non-human weapon skills to 2 at the start and 1 every 8 levels. Still 4 in combat skills by chapter 4-5 isn't bad.

 

There are two spell books in Khora-Vysss (chapter 3). The thrown missles one is easy to get to, but the pole weapons requires dispel barriers so you have to do the two tower quests for Tiacoura in chapter 4. Luckly you can do those before the Sentinel Workshop.

 

You won't make level 20 until about the end of chapter 5 with that level of experience penalty. I play that way through torment so I know. You will finish chapter 6 with over level 24 so it's easy to have all the battle disciplines for all characters by then.

 

Money for skills is somewhat tight for using the trainer. Weapons skills start at 1150 and go over 1500 by the time you get your 3rd level.

 

Chapter 5 has a discipline knife (+2 melee weapon, +1 pole) that's great for a spell caster. Chapter 6 has an archery cloak

(+2bBows, +2 thrown missles) that's almost as good.

 

Here's something that will give Jeff a fit. You can start a nephil fighter with 6 melee weapons/2 pole weapons/6 bows/4 thrown missles or reverse melee and poles and bows and thrown. Either way the 13 combat skills (1 for each melee and pole and 1/2 for bow and thrown) give you mighty blow before you start. For a pure fighter it's possible to have all the battle disciplines by chapter 3. You can easily make level 12-3 range in chapter 3.

 

You are right that having battle disciplines more than makes up for lower individual combat skills. The double damage of battle rage and it's increase AP means hefty damage for all attacks including spells. So it sometimes pays off to spend skill points for combat skills that are cheapest to get more battle disciplines.

 

Quote:

The first 3 levels or so were a little tough, with one or two fights I had to reload forever (Dirty Desiree). After that the second level of DT bonuses kicked in, my spellcasters started to have decent SP, and things have been pretty smooth sailing.

Dirty Desiree is something to do a little later at least on torment. I tend to go along the southern zones and head east to the Goblin Warrens to get the steel spear and after doing the Friendly Giant quest I go back and kill Marrowbones for the girdle of might (strength +2). The Rat Lord is also easier than the fight with Hirickis even after Jeff got rid of the insane lightning spray attack.

[Slawbug]

Battle Fury, or whatever it is, only increased my damage by about a third when I tested. Of course that still makes it the best skill by a lot.

[Randomizer]

Well aimed blow is about 50%, mighty blow is about 100% extra damage. It thought the last one did about the same, but I was just happy that it lasts for several rounds with the increased AP.

 

Oh for a nephil party of 4 with 55% extra experience penalty from traits. Chapter 1 ends at level 6-7 depending upon quest order and finding all the secret areas, etc. You get some minor XP from removing traps. Chapter 3 is about 12-13 levels but this depends more on quests, accepting Gladwell's "help" and whether you can get through Khora-Vyss (expert area). Chapter 4 is about level 16. Chapter 5 ends in about level 19-20. Chapter 6 is 24-25. Then end is about level 30.

 

If you are careful, you can exit chapter 4 before doing the Sentinel Workshop to become or at least visit the Anama. Keep a save before entering the Southwest Quadrant because there are some things that may make you change your mind before you reach the Anama Road to "safety." It took me a few hours of replaying to find out which golems/sentinels could be killed with out making the region hostile.

 

Once you are past this point and know what you're doing you can race ahead to the end and cherry pick the better crafted items to improve your party.

[Synergy]

A Tale Of Four Kitties

 

-S-

 

ADDIT: This is an intriguing team you're using. When I replay (still resting from all that testing and writing that huge items list), I will be running all nephils, but I was thinking of using three, and in looking over this optimzing, I'd have something similar, but without the fourth mage/priest, if I go with three PCs. Interesting choice to make them all archers. This sounds like a fun challenge, or at least variation, but it also means you can invest less in strength, because you don't have to carry a sword, and can use lighter knives, etc. for bonus stats.

[Cher]

A big thank you to everyone for the lists and all the advice in the forums.

 

I'm starting over for the last time (I hope). I've read the start party analysis, the trainers list, etc., but I'm still confused about skills.

 

I'd like a simple list of which skills are best waited for until finding a trainer and advice as to which skills to start with and build up in the beginning.

 

I'm thinking 4 custom humans (all women, not that that matters). A Pole user (Elite Warrior?), an Archer (Deadeye?), a Mage (Natural Mage), and a Priest (Pure Spirit). The Mage and Priest start with 3 levels of each for all the free spells and specialize after that. Based on what I've read they should all be Divinely Touched?

 

Beyond that, I'm not sure what to start with, build on, or wait for training in order not be disappointed later and tempted to start over AGAIN or heaven forbid lose interest without finishing.

 

I play on Normal difficulty.

 

Like I said, I've read the lists and analysis (I try to avoid spoilers until after I face the opponent or situation), but am still confused. All advice/opinions would be most welcomed.

[Randomizer]

Start training combat skills (melee, pole, missle, and thrown weapons) at the start for fighter characters. You want enough so you can get shield breaker battle discipline (b- 6 combat skill levels). Missle and thrown weapons only count as half a combat skill, but melee and pole count as full.

 

Spellcasters can wait until the weapon trainer to get combat skills. The extra damage from well aimed blow battle discipline is nice, but most people want to use the skill points elsewhere.

 

You can buy 3 levels each of spellcraft and magery from Shanker just past the Harston Docks so you can hold off on training that.

 

Divine touch is still the best trait for any character because it gives something useful to all of them.

 

For playing on normal then getting the parry skill is helpful. Having high dexterity and defense (6 each) makes it harder for almost everything to hit your fighters. Parry is the icing on the cake for making things that can hit you still have a chance to block damage. Elite Warrior trait for fighters gives a decent parry bonus.

[Cher]

Thanks so much!

 

For a straight archer, would you put all the combat skills into bows to start, then add some melee from the trainer for easier access to disciplines?

 

What about strength, intel, and endurance? Up those as I go when I find it necessary?

 

How does the xp penalty work, per character or averaged for entire party? If per character, it makes sense to give my archer the tool use since Deadeye is a lesser penalty than Elite Warrior. Is this correct? But then again, if I have to have double the bow levels for my archers battle disciplines, perhaps she needs the extra points more than my pole warrior does?

[Randomizer]

Endurance should be increased, but augmentation spell will help at the start so you can wait until level 8 or more when you can actually get some noticeable health. 6 is a good level for normal and 8 for torment by the last third of the game.

 

Strength for fighters so they can wear heavy armor and not get encumbered. Intelligence is needed for spellcasters so plan on 15 with items by the end of the game. Add 2 from the start and more every 4 or 5 levels.

 

I never found bows that helpful. Thrown weapons do better damage and a nephil gets the skill for free. Plan on using a sword for most of the game. Increase both melee and bows so you can get battle disciplines. This is where the real gains come into play.

 

The pole weapon warrior is going to be your main damage source for physical damage. Spell casters can hit multiple targets, but this warrior is going to be needed all game. He runs out there and pins down the enemy so they can't reach the weaker spellcasters. Give him lots of endurance and armor.

 

XP penalty is for each character. The bonus skills more than make up for the loss of levels.

 

Put tool use in an archer or spellcaster that is not going to get most of the spell from both mages and priests.

[-silver-]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:

The pole weapon warrior is going to be your main damage source for physical damage.

Er. My sword guy was doing twice to three times the damage of my pole guy (my party was: melee, pole+tools, priest+bows, mage+bows), and had more options to choose the kind of extra damage (flaming sword, ice sword, venomous waveblade)

Quote:

He runs out there and pins down the enemy so they can't reach the weaker spellcasters.

In your dreams. They just run around him anyway and attack your spellcasters no matter what.

[Randomizer]

This was based upon my party. My pole weapon slith was dishing out 50% more damage throughout the game.

 

Monsters disengaging from melee to go after other characters lose AP so they usually can't reach your weaker characters if you space them out properly. Its all about positioning.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
Monsters disengaging from melee to go after other characters lose AP so they usually can't reach your weaker characters if you space them out properly. Its all about positioning.

Also, if the enemy might be within melee range, it's best not to have your spellcasters attack in the first round of combat. If they don't attack, the enemy won't acquire them as targets.

[-silver-]

of course they're within melee range, they have to be so that they can cast party-affecting spells.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by -silver-:
of course they're within melee range, they have to be so that they can cast party-affecting spells.

Ah, there's your problem. What you want to do is cast all your party-affecting spells before combat begins, at least until you get Divine Restoration at the very end of the game, by which point your spellcasters should be able to take a few hits. (Mass Healing is overrated and you shouldn't need to use it. Just use single-target healing spells instead: they have more than enough range.)

[Zummi]

Slarty..you might want to revamp this..you don't get 180 at 20..there's no 5 skill points at level 1..discarding the bonus 80 in a Custom..you only get 95 skill points..

[Flipstylez]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Now let's do the math. Spellcasters obviously want as much extra skill as they can get, since they get a good damage ramp out of it. For physical attackers, it's much less important. Tool Use takes up 56 points, which means it doesn't fit well with magic. So we want one character who just uses bows or poles, with Tool Use.

Wasn't it confirmed that tool use affects the "unlock" spell as well? Shouldn't it be ok to have a mage/bow/tool guy?

[Lilith]

There's no such thing as an Unlock spell in Avernum 5. That was strictly an Avernum 4 thing.

[Flipstylez]

ohhhhh, thanks!

[Flipstylez]

hey u lied. there is an unlock spell in A5. damn it..

[Slawbug]

It's been a while, but IIRC, the Unlock Doors spell does not work on traps, and also does not stack with Tool Use in A5.

[Lilith]

Yeah, I'd forgotten that A5 had the goofy BoA-style magical lock thing going on.

 

A6 returns to the A4-style Unlock Doors that effectively adds to Tool Use, but it's not included in either the mage or priest spell list, so the only way to actually cast it is with a Tinker's Crystal -- which means it still doesn't matter which character you give Tool Use to.