First impressions

[kkarski]

I've finished the demo section of A5, and I'm enormously impressed.

 

Avernum 4 was a bit disappointing for me. I never got to finishing it; I've tried two times, and in both cases I gave up after going into the Abyss. The plot was too thin, the fights were, in most cases, just plain tedious. Avernum was shrinked to suit the new engine better, and it just wasn't right - when playing A2 I always had the feeling that the cities are bustling with activity, and in A4 they felt strangely small and empty. There were many more things that i didn't like in A4, but...

 

After playing through A5 demo I have a feeling that all the wrongs have been fixed. The story seems brilliant and it immersed me in no time. You travel through unknown parts of Avernum so the aforementioned old-new city problem ceased to exist. The job board quests are a lot more interesting and far less tedious.

Jeff also made A5 full of choices. I loved that, for instance, you could choose to kill Dirty Dan (and possibly face consequences of killing an Avernite, i don't know) or let him go. That you could choose to give tip on the ratlord's land to either the man in pub or to Mother Alice. That you can constrain yourself when talking with Saulny or give out your anger.

And, that's my favorite, that Dinicio pays you to talk with the giant and use peaceful means, but if you choose to kill him you discover that he has an unpleasant secret.

That made the game less black and white, you have to make some decisions, albeit it's not so plain as in Geneforge series (of which I'm not a big fan).

 

The battles are more tactical. Enemy attacks aren't lethal, but the important ones have a lot HP and can be nasty. You have to watch your step. The battle disciplines are an excellent addition and make combat more interesting. I experiment a lot with them - a simple but efficient strategy, for example, is to use Shield Breaker with your archer and then have your fighter stomp on the enemy with a well-aimed blow. Even better if he's blessed and hasted. Then you can add a smite or firebolt from your spellcasters to multiply the pain.I played the demo at normal, but I think that after registering I'll start again with a hard party.

 

And about the core improvements, the return of elevations is wonderful, as is the return of keyboard targetting. More animations and character models made the game more lively, and the new sounds give a pleasant break from the old ones (some of which so old that I remembered them from Exile times).

The game gave me as much thrill as A2 and A3, and i didn't expect this, so Jeff- thank you

[Spidweb]

Glad you like it. I worked very hard to address the problems people had with Avernum 4.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Rowen]

I love the demo part. I wish I wasn't some poor college kid who is living by day by day so I could pony up the cash for this game. One thing that happened to me in the demo is that I killed all the skuttlers before I got quest to get the nice eyes for the mage. Is there any way that I can complete this quest or am I hosed on this one?

 

Im now going through the demo as a slith singleton. I find that I am hoding everylittle thing I find that I can sell to get the cash to beef up my level one mage and priest spells as fast as I can. Has anyone done this game with a singleton that can maybe tell me what I should keep my eyes open for?

[Xaiya]

I haven't played it, but it sounds really good. I can't wait till March.

 

(And please give a spoiler warning)

[Klax]

I was so glad to see A5 come out. I've played about 45 minutes so far and it's just been great.

Great job, Jeff. Thanks for a lift in the End of Fall Blues.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Rowen:
I love the demo part. I wish I wasn't some poor college kid who is living by day by day so I could pony up the cash for this game. One thing that happened to me in the demo is that I killed all the skuttlers before I got quest to get the nice eyes for the mage. Is there any way that I can complete this quest or am I hosed on this one?

Check special items to see if there are any in inventory. You can get some items even before the quest. Also did you ring the gongs by the pits? This summons more scuttlers once per pit.

Quote:

Im now going through the demo as a slith singleton. I find that I am holding every little thing I find that I can sell to get the cash to beef up my level one mage and priest spells as fast as I can. Has anyone done this game with a singleton that can maybe tell me what I should keep my eyes open for?

I've done the demo 6 times as a singleton during testing. You can hold off on arcane lore and nature lore without hurting yourself for money. Check out Synergy\'s List for the best items to steal without making an area hostile.

Tool use needs to be raised to 4 after clearing the first area beneath Blackchasm Outpost to loot Dirty Dan's belongings before attacking him. Then hold off on tool use until about level 9 and raise it 7 to open most of the doors and traps.

I found it's better to start the game with mage and priest spells at 3 to have the starting spells. Having daze, blessing, and protection make the fights go easier even in torment. There's plenty of money out there to get spells.

One thing you can do is Dionicio's Friendly Giant quest and after getting the reward go back and kill Marrowbones for that really nice girdle that he drops.

A nice trick with the unstable mass below the Harston Lowlands is use daze and slow spells to reduce splitting. You need to be hasted so you can attack and then cast a spell.

[Rowen]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
[QB][Check special items to see if there are any in inventory. You can get some items even before the quest. Also did you ring the gongs by the pits? This summons more scuttlers once per pit.

I rang the gongs and then rang them again just to be sure. My grand total of eyes is 7. <weeps>

I'll definitely keep in mind your tips on the singleton, thank you for the help and tips. Thank you U of I for giving me a week long vacation to play Avernum 5.

[Randomizer]

Is 7 scuttler eyes from doing the upper level? That's the maximum for that area. You need to do the lower level to get more.

[Henrik]

Quote:

Originally written by Rowen:
I love the demo part. I wish I wasn't some poor college kid who is living by day by day so I could pony up the cash for this game.

Hehe, you should move to europe then

Thanks to the historically low dollar value (it hasn't been this low since during the oil crisis back in the 70s actually) any european will find the game (or any other american product) very, very cheap
This all suits me very fine as I love this series but like you I'm a very poor student.

Oh and if you've killed *all* the scuttlers, you can save the mission for much later. There will be more scuttlers later on (though tougher).

[Tyranicus]

Quote:

Originally written by The Iffy Muffin who...does stuff...:
I haven't played it, but it sounds really good. I can't wait till March.

(And please give a spoiler warning)

If I were you, I wouldn't read this forum until I have the game to avoid spoilers. That's what I did when A4 came out before I had my Mac.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

I agree with kkarski in every point. Though I still prefer the original version of Avernum, the new one has improved enough to have its own quality. I'm looking forward to getting the full version.

If I was to add some criticism though, I'd like to say that one thing that bothers me about the environment is that walls etc. now consume a whole square, instead of squeezing between two squares. I think that really makes a big difference.

Anyhow - A5 is great. Especially the battles are much more fun now! Good work, Jeff, and thanks!

 

@Henrik: Tjena!

[Ephesos]

As long as we're talking first impressions, I'd like to say wow. Just, wow. I burned through the demo in four days (okay, 'burned through' is relative, since I'm a busy college student), and just registered this evening. I do not regret it in any way shape or form, and it might in fact be the best software purchase I've ever made.

 

So A4 wasn't bad in my book. It wasn't terrific when compared to the rest of the 'trilogy', but it was a mild disappointment. I am somewhat glad I received my copy of the game via beta testing... even though I 'wasted' my free game from the first BoA contest on it, not knowing I'd end up testing. I never took the time to finish a second play-through.

 

I'm barely into the Northern Isles, and I can safely say I will play through everything again. I have encountered so far my favorite Avernum encounter that I can recall (the hallucination fight in the potionmaster's attic at Shanker's), as well as the saddest (disciplining Shanker's ogre). I can plainly see the major choices branching out in front of me, and they're not just tangential things like the Anama were in A3.

 

In any case, it's all wonderful. My unease with the new engine has all but vanished (the issue of outdoors probably only feels weird still 'cause I'm so used to BoA). Excellent work, Jeff!

 

(goes back to playing)

[The Crimson Coyote]

my little review on A5 Demo:

 

The Story was great. It set what your objectives were. it gave a sense of Direction, a motivation, and the mini boss at the beginning got you into the action very quickly, with a lot better level design than A4's Intro level.

 

The new Melee abilities gave a refreshing look on combat that I wish was in the original Avernum games, how ever, I understand theses are Empire troopers who have had best of the best Training, even for a Noob level troopers like our Protagonists. I do think there could have been more attacks added, such as a Back stab and such.

 

One more thing I would like to express, The Geneforge engine with Avernum?!? I saw A4, and Found it very poorly done. I felt for a time, that the engine should be saved for Geneforge. But Jeff has Proved me wrong. This game is a great game. I still prefer the Avernum 3 engine/UI, but I came away feeling a new view on the game.

 

As for graphics, I know Jman dose not give a licking toss about the graphics, and feels that the old bits and peaces give it the Spider web software feel. he may be right. I can always identify his games. How ever, Im glad to see some new bits and peaces make there way in. The slopes, hills, stairs... I better see some impressive things like this in GF5!

 

I also noticed the almost naked Wild boy and Girl made an appearance. They don't look empireish, but they were cool characters to have as Barbarians/Berzerkers.

Oh, and I almost forgot, The other races have some old familiar portraits. Allot better.

 

My bottom line: Much better work Jeff. This game has returned my faith in The Next Saga of Avernum. keep it up...

[Mr. Slithzerikai]

I like this one much better.

 

I didn't actually buy Avernum 4, since it wasn't that fun for me.

But after playing through a bit of Avernum 5, I'm pretty sure I want to see the rest.

[avvv]

Searched for some thread to write my personal review and decided to bump this one. Dunno if regular players care about what I think about the game but devs usually want comments about their game.

 

Originally Posted By: "kkarski "

And about the core improvements, the return of elevations is wonderful, as is the return of keyboard targetting. More animations and character models made the game more lively, and the new sounds give a pleasant break from the old ones (some of which so old that I remembered them from Exile times).

 

I agree here.

 

Let's move on to comments.

Lemme introduce myself briefly: I've played all avernum games, 3rd exile and nethergate resurrection.

 

What was good in a5:

- obviously battle disciplines. They gave the warriors some unique performance. On the other hand they should be only accessible by warriors because mage or pries with well aimed blow and shield breaker were quite imba.

- New graphics. It was a pleasure to see some new models like the amazon woman, bodybuilder male, bulky nephilim, a dragon, swamp monster and pit crawler

- pretty good main plot (though i've always more interested in exploring the world, doing quests and advancing levels and gaining good loot )

- The hunt for differend beasts for that potion maker was cool. It was always exciting to meet a new foe and see what's the reward.

- Shiny things like the portal and some crystals, spell effects were alright too.

 

What was bad or could be improved:

- Even it took like a week to finish the game, it lacks the epicness of avernum 3. At some point, there simply isn't anything to do because you have sold everything that can be sold, found everything, fought everything and so on. In avernum 3 you could get infinite ammount of money by doing certain quests and develop your characters forever by mass-producing knowledge brews.

- More models are needed really. The pit crawler was the only monster that really had some "ooh" effect on me. The game needs bigger monsters and meaner monster models.

- Also the graphical look of outdoords and cities could be improved. When everything consists of squares the message box saying that the scene is impressive piece of nature just isn't enough.

[Alorael at Large]

We'd all be happy with new graphics for each game. Jeff is on a limited budget for time and money, though. Every time we get pretty pictures, something else has to go. If you want Avernum to look good, you'll be waiting forever.

 

—Alorael, who looks on the bright side. At least the graphics aren't ASCII, although this should in no way be construed as a slur towards Rogue/Angband/Nethack/ADoM.

[Lord Bob]

Having just gunned through A5 for the first time, I must confess to some disappointment.

 

Don't get me wrong. A5 was a good game. I don't regret the time or money I spent on it in the least. But it ought to have been a great game; storywise, it was the best since A2 by a walk. The engine was just miles better than A4's.

 

But the flaws made me sad. I was looking forward to seeing Solberg again, so it was a bit a shock to see him as an insane, resentful, oblivious, half-undead recluse. I was looking forward to seeing a bit more from the Redmark family connection than a brief "Erika was bad". And the game progressed very linearly, like a Super Mario Bros. game: there was Frontier World, and Golem World, and Anama World, and Vahnatai World, and Dragon World, and then finally you caught Bowser in his meeting room and ran around a castle whacking him until he went away. Of course, you could go back for various subquests, but the main thread of the game was very much a one-way street.

 

And the grinding. Oh lord, the grinding. Were those articles Jeff did about RPGs last year ghostwritten or something? Because whatever the record was for 'most time spent wandering around whacking stuff that's the same as the previous stuff but green and that has no connection to anything', I'm pretty sure it was broken. The "you walk across the bridge and all of a sudden chitrachs with 800 hit points arrive on every side and you get to spend the next century going through them" was cute the first fifteen times he did it, but by now it's getting a little stale. I can think of one genuinely interesting new monster, the rockhounds: they were cool because they were a novel idea rather than the old giant lizard -> fire lizard -> mutant lizard -> warped lizard -> really giant lizard -> warped lizard Royale with Cheese progression. The vahnatai lands were the worst for this: if I saw one more random group of irritating but not particularly dangerous bad guys, I was probably going to throw something.

 

I'm harping on the bad because it bugged me. This was that close to being a genuinely brilliant game. I consider it money well-spent (Spiderweb Software is still ace as far as value for money is concerned!), time well-spent, enjoyed playing it, will play it again, will recommend it to my friends, and will still be very sad that it's a good game and not anything more than that.

[Randomizer]

Avernum 3 was the last of the series where we could just explore. Be prepared for more linear games as Jeff no longer subscribes to letting player death being a way to keep us in check.

 

Grinding is a little better than A4, but it remains a constant in all games. A4 and A5 are more of quests raise the level rather than monster kills. Still you have to grind through nuisance monsters to get the quests done.

[Student of Trinity]

There's no arguing about taste, but man, I wonder if we played the same game. Sure, there were a lot of some things — scuttlers, wolves, worms, chitrachs, revenants — in a few places. But if any number of monsters larger than three equals grinding, then it is also going to get monotonous fighting endless streams of lone bosses. Up to a point, number is just another variable for monsters, and there is more variety if all the variables get used.

 

I really can't think of anything in A5 that I would call grinding.

[Lord Bob]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
There's no arguing about taste, but man, I wonder if we played the same game. Sure, there were a lot of some things — scuttlers, wolves, worms, chitrachs, revenants — in a few places. But if any number of monsters larger than three equals grinding, then it is also going to get monotonous fighting endless streams of lone bosses. Up to a point, number is just another variable for monsters, and there is more variety if all the variables get used.

I'm not averse to killing stuff or even killing lots of stuff if it's done well. Dorikas's fortress involved lotsa killin' and a million nameless mooks but the battle was interesting so I had fun. By contrast, A5 seemed to have a lot of "it's the same fight as last time, only this time the bad guys are red" going on in other sections.

Again, it is a question of taste: your thresholds might be higher than mine, which frankly fills me with envy. But still. From my perspective, it was irritating as all get out.

[Dikiyoba]

I was simultaneously impressed and unimpressed with A5.

 

On one hand, I liked the gameplay. The engine was so much better than A4's. Elevation, battle disciplines, some truly nasty boss fights, secret areas, boats (even though the pathfinding could still use some work), being able to switch places with party members in combat, the encumbrance system, and all the choices I could make (Do I take Gladwell's geas? Join the Anama? Support the Darkside Loyalists?) I know I only scratched the surface when it came to seeing all the content and creating a powerful party. The gameplay, by itself, it worthy of a few replays.

 

But I was severely disappointed by the atmosphere of the game. It worked well for the first three or four sections, but after that I stopped believing I was in the frontier. For all the difficulty Avernum should have had in getting people and supplies downriver, Highground and Muck didn't look too much worse off than Harkin's Landing and Exodus. Or, for that matter, New Harston. Then suddenly I was in vahnatai lands, which didn't look noticeably better off. Sure, they were just waking up. But I expected the vahnatai to be cooler than the Avernum settlers, and they just weren't. I might have started believing again once I reached Melanchion's lands, but apparently that's going to be settled by Avernum very soon too. There was always a transportation pylon nearby (I was pretty disappointed they didn't stop at Muck, even though that would have made travel more difficult), and somehow Lark always knew exactly what monster I needed to be on the lookout for. So I just lost interest.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

I was really disappointed, because my first impression wound up being better than the game was. The demo was excellent, but the rest went downhill. Maybe its my BoA critiquing kicking in, but after the demo, everything felt like filler (in fact, I'm pretty sure it was filler). Slay this mage, kill this bandit, destroy this golem, and so forth, all of it only very loosely connected to the actual plot. Which, coincidentally felt like a minor revision of every other Avernum previous, IMO. Please, Vogel, I'm begging you on my hands and knees here: Do NOT create yet another villain that just sits in his/her fortress/castle waiting for you to meander on over and beat him up in a final climatic battle. Rentar-Ihrno, in my opinion, stood out because, in both A3 and A4, you could directly interact with her long before the final fight. She was the best villain in all of the Avernum games for this very reason. She wasn't a static chunk of game-winning HP; she was an actual character.

 

Additionally, despite the "improvements" in A5's combat, I actually preferred A4's battles. Sure, individual, unique fights are fine... until they start getting stacked one after another. Suddenly, boss fights and high-level fights lose their uniqueness, and then you've just got a whole new (and, in my opinion, far worse) breed of grinding. For me, part of the excitement of a boss fight was that it'd usually be something entirely new and different. It would stand out from the rest of the game in a way nothing else could. Now? It's just another enemy, with a bit more HP and a little more firepower. Suddenly, I had nothing to look forward to at the end of an area. Sure, the engine had a couple of improvements (the battle disciplines were nice), but this didn't overcome the fights themselves. Sometimes, nothing beats a good old-fashioned free-for-all with a mob of rats.

 

I, like many others here, also miss exploration. The linear model works well for Geneforge (though I have to admit, I liked GF1 and GF2 considerably more than I did GF3 and GF4; guess where the plots became linear ), but it does not work with the Avernum series. The entire original trilogy was based on exploration; that's why A3 is still my favorite (not counting BoA). Even Nethergate and N:R are exploration-based. Even A4 had a degree of exploration; nothing as grand as the original trilogy, but it was still there. Yet in A5, I felt suffocated by the almost straitjacket-like design. If I didn't do something, I was instantly barred from proceeding.

 

So, in closing, I actually consider A5 a step down from A4, and I actually liked A4 more than I did A5. Here's to hoping that Jeff comes back from this to blow us away with A6.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Additionally, despite the "improvements" in A5's combat, I actually preferred A4's battles. Sure, individual, unique fights are fine... until they start getting stacked one after another. Suddenly, boss fights and high-level fights lose their uniqueness, and then you've just got a whole new (and, in my opinion, far worse) breed of grinding. For me, part of the excitement of a boss fight was that it'd usually be something entirely new and different. It would stand out from the rest of the game in a way nothing else could. Now? It's just another enemy, with a bit more HP and a little more firepower. Suddenly, I had nothing to look forward to at the end of an area. Sure, the engine had a couple of improvements (the battle disciplines were nice), but this didn't overcome the fights themselves. Sometimes, nothing beats a good old-fashioned free-for-all with a mob of rats.

But... A5 had free-for-alls with mobs of rats, and they were done much better than in A4 at that. Remember the elevator fight?

[Randomizer]

Don't forget the Rat Cave which was one rat fight after another.

 

Jeff went away from the ton of goblin swarm fights to more boss type fights. A different type of grinding since each boss required a little different tactic.

[Nioca]

Three rats at a time does not constitute a free-for-all. That's not to say A5 didn't have its free-for-alls. I just think they were executed better in A4. In A4, you had mobs. Sometimes, you could get swarmed by up to eight or nine enemies simultaneously. In A5, you got stragglers that typically came in groups of three or less. There were almost never more enemies than you could handle at once, and when there was, they were usually limited/nerfed in such a way that, in the hands of a competent player, the party was never in any real danger. There were only a few truly overwhelming moments.

 

That's not to say that unique fights are bad. However, I consider typical RP mobs the bread of RPG combat, and unique fights the butter. Loading butter on the bread is fine, but simply spreading butter on the counter where a slice of bread should be is not.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Three rats at a time does not constitute a free-for-all. That's not to say A5 didn't have its free-for-alls. I just think they were executed better in A4. In A4, you had mobs. Sometimes, you could get swarmed by up to eight or nine enemies simultaneously. In A5, you got stragglers that typically came in groups of three or less. There were almost never more enemies than you could handle at once, and when there was, they were usually limited/nerfed in such a way that, in the hands of a competent player, the party was never in any real danger. There were only a few truly overwhelming moments.

Uh, swarms of weak monsters with nothing unique about them aren't challenging. At all. Ever. Especially in A4, when Parry was so broken that you could just send out one fighter into the middle of combat and let him get attacked 8 times per round for a total of about 20 damage.

[Alorael at Large]

I noticed that A5 has less cannon fodder for you to chop through, but I never felt cheated of the chance to obliterate pointless foes. I thought there were enough of them to make the unique combats still feel unique. There were just a lot more of them.

 

—Alorael, who particularly liked how few or no quests involved fighting ordinary monsters the whole way through. When you're hired to kill something in A5, you're hired to kill something that will take a certain amount of skill to eliminate.

[Evnissyen]

I was wondering myself why there was no trace of a Vahnatai presence in the Azure Gallery, if in fact they did consider that cavern part of their 'lands'. I had a difficult time sympathizing with their despair over the humans' colonization and exploitation of a cavern that the Vahnatai themselves had either abandoned or just never bothered to stake any sort of noticeable presence in, allowing all sorts of destructive creatures to roam free, and especially since surely they must've foreseen the Avernites spreading into the lower caves? Why should they have been surprised?

 

Also, in regard to elevation -- especially because there was so much emphasis on it -- I felt that there should've been more work done on the cliff graphics. Honestly, it looked very much like Nethergate did.

 

As for exploration vs. linear: The problem, I think, is that it's difficult to impose a story upon a wandering model. That's what Nethergate was, and for me that did not work so well, because really, apart from the progressive suggestions that constitute the storyline, I was allowed to go anywhere I pleased and therefore, later in the game I would get to certain areas only to find out that I was supposed to have cleared them out much earlier, and I didn't gain any experience from them. G1 is a little bit like this -- at least in comparison with G3 & G4 -- and now I have to go into areas, at level 15, that I was apparently 'supposed' to have cleared out by level 11 or so, and it feels like a chore since I'm not gaining any XP from it.

 

A4 & A5 are better organized than Nethergate, and so we know when it's okay to just wander around and when it's time to move on, and so, except for a few more difficult fights that you have have to return to later on, the XP is based on the wandering system in appropriate steps.

 

The only problem I had with the A5 version of a linear system is that every time I traveled into a new area, because I had to keep traveling down rapids, I wasn't able to return to a previous area except by pylon and therefore the game gave me a sense of being trapped, and a sense that the game was dividing me up into a bunch of separate cages that could only be escaped by pylon... . A4 was more pleasurable in a way in that it gave me the sense that I was in a single, unified land.

 

Nioca does have a good point in that the linear system is better suited for Geneforge, but I think that there has to be that sort of easy marraige between storyline and wandering, the way that A4 is set up, and A5 also except for those very definite divisions.

 

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

I was wondering myself why there was no trace of a Vahnatai presence in the Azure Gallery, if in fact they did consider that cavern part of their 'lands'.

I thought this was very odd too.

Quote:

...and especially since surely they must've foreseen the Avernites spreading into the lower caves? Why should they have been surprised?

Now, how could they have forseen that when they've been in hibernation longer than Avernum has been in existence?

Dikiyoba.

Edit: Fixed quotes.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Three rats at a time does not constitute a free-for-all. That's not to say A5 didn't have its free-for-alls. I just think they were executed better in A4. In A4, you had mobs. Sometimes, you could get swarmed by up to eight or nine enemies simultaneously. In A5, you got stragglers that typically came in groups of three or less. There were almost never more enemies than you could handle at once, and when there was, they were usually limited/nerfed in such a way that, in the hands of a competent player, the party was never in any real danger. There were only a few truly overwhelming moments.

Uh, swarms of weak monsters with nothing unique about them aren't challenging. At all. Ever. Especially in A4, when Parry was so broken that you could just send out one fighter into the middle of combat and let him get attacked 8 times per round for a total of about 20 damage.

Who said anything about swarms of weak monsters? I didn't say a word about making them weak. In fact, the implication in the part you quoted is anything but.

[Randomizer]

The Vahnatai have a crypt beneath the Honeycomb Barrens under the Fang Clan outpost, and the Lake of Trials in the Azure Gallery section. It's just all you see are crystals to be looted.

[Dikiyoba]

Okay. Well, Dikiyoba didn't explore either of those areas. There's the ruins in the Howling Depths that Dikiyoba forgot about too.

[Synergy]

Speaking of swarms of weak monsters, I think it would be fun once in a while later on in the game to hit a big pack of goblins or rats or something you could take out with one blast of divine fire or something...just for the sheer satisfaction of having become so powerful. I all but begged Jeff to throw a couple swarms in the game. I'd like to think that may have contributed to the wall to wall room full of spiders on your way out of the Northern Isles or the chitrach swarm you encounter on the way to Anama Lands. Neither of those swarms was particularly weak monsters, however, so I didn't really get my wish. If I wrote a game, I'd throw in something amusing like 50 rats ambushing you, but one hit of anything would take them out.

 

-S-

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

they were usually limited/nerfed in such a way that... the party was never in any real danger...

Originally Posted By: Nioca

Who said anything about swarms of weak monsters? I didn't say a word about making them weak. In fact, the implication in the part you quoted is anything but.

???

[Nioca]

Context, Slarty, context! Here's what I actually said:

 

Originally Posted By: A Great and Wondrous Icon of Spiderweb Software and the World

Three rats at a time does not constitute a free-for-all. That's not to say A5 didn't have its free-for-alls. I just think they were executed better in A4. In A4, you had mobs. Sometimes, you could get swarmed by up to eight or nine enemies simultaneously. In A5, you got stragglers that typically came in groups of three or less. There were almost never more enemies than you could handle at once, and when there was, they were usually limited/nerfed in such a way that, in the hands of a competent player, the party was never in any real danger. There were only a few truly overwhelming moments.

Thuryl then responded with this:

Originally Posted By: A very Thuryl person

Uh, swarms of weak monsters with nothing unique about them aren't challenging. At all. Ever. Especially in A4, when Parry was so broken that you could just send out one fighter into the middle of combat and let him get attacked 8 times per round for a total of about 20 damage.

I then replied with:

Originally Posted By: A Icon, Part II

Who said anything about swarms of weak monsters? I didn't say a word about making them weak. In fact, the implication in the part you quoted is anything but.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Ah, so Nioca wants swarms of stronger monsters. You all seem to agree, there was just some miscommunication, it seems. I'm all for stronger swarms of monsters, just as long as us poor players can keep turning down the difficulty when it gets too tough.

[Lilith]

But... what about all the chitrachs and rockhounds? Surely you're not telling me that you wanted as many chitrachs in A5 as there were in A4.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I think Spiderweb has gotten pretty good at making subclasses of monsters. There were so many skeletons in the last game, yet each group you met was so unique (with different names and powers) that no one would ever complain about something like that.

 

Chitrachs and rockhounds in particular don't bother me so much. I always got the impression that they were supposed to come in annoying swarms. That's part of their character.

[Tcheedchee]

Originally Posted By: Cetovan

Three rats at a time does not constitute a free-for-all. That's not to say A5 didn't have its free-for-alls. I just think they were executed better in A4. In A4, you had mobs. Sometimes, you could get swarmed by up to eight or nine enemies simultaneously. In A5, you got stragglers that typically came in groups of three or less. There were almost never more enemies than you could handle at once, and when there was, they were usually limited/nerfed in such a way that, in the hands of a competent player, the party was never in any real danger. There were only a few truly overwhelming moments.

Did you try to kill Gladwell? He comes up with enough ghosts to surround your party and make it sweat. The elevator fight… Or you can try to kill the Pit Crawler in the middle of it's lair instead of near the pit at the entrance. Try to kill the fen monster on it's little island. Give the splitting mass south of Gelmax hideout a chance to reproduce… You'll always have a chance to be surrounded by foes if you let the fight come this way. Didn't you like "Endurance" in Solbergs SE Quadrant?
I have to admit, I'm not an experienced fighter, nor do I have any comparison to other Avernum games, - this is my first one - and I'd also like a game with more exploration in some parts, but I'd really think, that you would have a lot of chances for fights, where you'll be totally surrounded by foes, if you like that. Especially, when you're an experienced player. You do have room to fashion the fights for yourself, if you're experienced.

(Here follows the EDIT-section:)
I agree with Evnyssen, that in A5 one gets a certain feeling of being trapped. I don't like it very much. But isn't that a proper frontier-feeling, too?
It's hard to proceed. Not too many ways open up by themselves, and going back is not really, what you want, because you want to proceed further into the 'unknown'.
I agree also, that it's funny to have pylons deeper in the frontier, but if you hadn't, you should be able to set some up by yourself. Maybe that could be a topic for A6 or one of it's followers. A game from the view of Landsman's party?! Then you'd have to fight the drakes with real reason (or not). Also the goldrush-theme, which is doubtlessly contained in A5 (from the point of view of a European), could be picked up again, - intensified even.

Originally Posted By: Synergy

If I wrote a game, I'd throw in something amusing like 50 rats ambushing you, but one hit of anything would take them out.

Funny, you should say that. I'd like that too. It was so much fun, when in Incantor Temple's Garden I came up with the idea of pelting this central plantmonster (can't remember it's proper name at the moment) with spray of lightning. How all the shrubs shrivelled to nothing in one moment. Their cries were quite funny too. I felt like Avernum's greatest magician (for a few minutes…)

And as a newcomer to all this, I find very wise, what sleeping dragon says:

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

I'm all for stronger swarms of monsters, just as long as us poor players can keep turning down the difficulty when it gets too tough.

Maybe one could do some more improvment on levels of difficulty. Maybe Jeff could add some more swarms of strong monsters for advanced levels…

Tch…

[Randomizer]

I asked Jeff back in Nethergate: Resurrection to have increased numbers for torment level, but it's easier to code to just make their stats higher.

[Tcheedchee]

That's a pitty.

I just suggested to Evnyssen in a different thread, that we could suggest to Jeff, to include certain hints in the easier levels of the Avernums still to come, to help less experienced or apt players to find out the strategies with which to win their fights, and to gradually omit them with increasing difficulty…

 

[DrRorschach]

Let me start this by saying that I've been an Exile fan for years. That, and playing Avernum 5 was kinda an accident, but definitely not a mistake. The Exiles are some of the best games I've ever played, and even though I knew that Spiderweb/Vogel had other games out there, I never really paid much mind to them, until trolling the 'net for Exile tidbits. So the Encyclopedia Ermariana finally clued me in that the Avernum trilogy was rewrites of Exile in 3d. I looked at the screenshots at the spiderweb site, and while not terribly impressed, figured I'd give them a test run. (I prefer low-key or low-graphics type games.) So I downloaded all the demos, and then installed them. All went without a hitch, until the A5 demo gave me an install error. It didn't do anything bad, so I opened to game to see if it worked..... It was fine, and I was hooked, and haven't looked back since. All my early worries about the 3d, and skewed screen have vanished, to be replaced with a burning itch to trek on! In the only two weeks since, all I can think about is what's next. For all their wonderfullness, there is a limit to how many times you can do the same things in E1-E3, and now I have a whole new set of games to explore....

 

Sorry for the rambled discourse, but I felt that the details were somewhat necessary to convey my love of this game.