what is your group make up?

[Qualicide]

I've always fallen into the same group. I have 1 main melee, 1 back up with theif skills then 1 complete priest and 1 complete mage. I've never done anything different because they don't seem nearly as effective. What do you guys use?

[Icshi]

I use one swordsman, one spearman (with one of these two also good with mechanics), one priest/archer, and one mage.

[Alorael at Large]

My first two characters are like Icshi's, and my second two are identical mage/priests. Avernum 4 made me strongly consider rethinking this arrangement.

 

—Alorael, who always ponders making his casters into archers too. It never gets anywhere, though. That much magic takes a lot of skill points.

[Kelandon]

My favorite setup for A1/A2 is a duo: pure fighter (both swords and spears) and a magic-user (both mage and priest) who eventually becomes a small-time fighter also.

 

For A3/BoA, I'm still deciding. I've been going with the default, but I've been trying to adapt without much success.

 

For A4, I like what I have right now, which is one fighter, one archer, one mage/archer and one priest.

[Ephesos]

Let's see... I forget what I used for A2 & 3. Nothing interesting, if I recall, though.

 

For BoA, I used a nearly-indestructible human fighter with some priest spells (enough to heal & cure himself), a nephil archer with a decent sword and some mage spells (enough to cast light & bolt of fire), a human mage with Morog's Scepter for some SP relief, and a slith priest with a decent spear and some points in Lethal Blow ('nuff said).

 

For A4, I find that a super-quick self-healing spear-wielding human fighter, a sword-wielding sharpshooting nephil archer, a pure human priest with nature lore and first aid, and a spear-wielding slith mage work the best. Much more specialized, but for a reason (A4 is tough...).

[Igor]

For most of the Avernum series, my favorite layout has been:

 

1: Nephil swordsman/archer with tool use.

2: Slith spearman/javlineer with first aid

3: Human priest with potion making/cave lore

4: Human mage with arcane lore.

 

Lately I've started giving my fighters a point or two of mage and priest so that they can heal /bless themselves, cast light, or cast Bolt of Fire.

[Wise Man]

A single mage/priest. Add a fighter if necessary.

[Marak]

Here goes:

 

In Avernum 2, since the Melee damage cap is so ludicrously low, I basically make everyone into massive magic monsters: everone has at least 13 points in both Mage and Priest Spells (although I try my darndest to get 18/18 with everyone), high Intelligence, and a fair measure of other useful stats: Cave Lore, Strength (to carry my phat loot), Endurance (you need HP, after all), Luck, Defense, and Hardiness (to reduce encumbrance from armor). Of course, all my characters have both the Natural Mage (casting in armor for the win) and Sickness Prone (to offset the XP penalty for Natural Mage) Traits.

 

In Avernum 3, it's the same thing, but 2 of my characters stop the Mage/Priest Spells at 12 or so, and instead focus a bit more on Melee (since you can do REAL damage with Melee in A3): I put the points I'd normally spend getting Mage/Priest Spells to 18 on Melee Weapons, Polearms, Assassination, Gymnastics, and Dexterity: that way, my "Melee Duo" still have all but 6 of the game's spells, and it gives me a viable backup plan for when I encounter Magic Immune critters (like Rakshasa or Doomguards).

 

Why do I do this? I like being powerful to the point of outrageousness. Plus it's amusing to get into a fight with virtually anything and have the ability to end the fight in one round, as each character unleashes their stupidly powerful Ice Lances/Lightning Spray/Fireblast/Arcane Blow spells. It's sad how much damage a character with 18 Mage Spells, 12 Intellect, and 9 Magery can do.

And I won't even get into how convientent it is when ALL your characters can cast Healing, War Blessing, Haste, Unshackle Mind, Mass Curing, Mass Healing, Fireblast, Ice Lances, Lightning Spray, Cloud of Blades, UNLOCK DOORS, and MOVE MOUNTAINS.

 

There's nothing you can't fight, and no obstacles can bar your way. Who needs to blow 75+ skill points on Tool Use when you have Level 2/3 Unlock Doors on every character and your resistances are so high (thanks to your Luck and high Mage/Priest/Intellect scores) that you can laugh off most trap damage (or cure it with Mass Curing/Healing)? How'd you like to take your end-game Party and be able to have a realistic chance at killing Erika in her tower (in A3)? She and her FOUR Doomguards laughed at my "balanced" Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Mage Party, but with my All Magic Party, I killed her. And her Doomguards. Without anyone dying.

 

Ok, sorry, done ranting. You should try an all Dual-uber-caster party sometime. It's fun being the most powerful quartet of mortals in the world of Avernum.

[Icshi]

I forgot to mention that my spearman also weilds a crossbow. Handy for the occasional strategic shot into thick enemy ranks, especially when hasted.

 

But as far as make-up goes — well, only my lady cleric wears any. It would look silly on my barbarian swordsman, and my mage was teased badly enough at the Tower without that kind of thing going on.

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Icshi:
It would look silly on my barbarian swordsman

Woad.

My nephils don't wear makeup, but they enjoy having their fur curled/straightened and their claws sharpened and polished as much as the next anthropomorphic cat. The sliths buff their scales until they gleam.

—Alorael, who has found that the end of an Avernum game usually gives magic users ridiculous damage at the cost of only being able to launch a few volleys before some kind of magical refill is needed. Fighters may do less damage to fewer monsters, but they can keep doing it all day. (By the end of any Avernum, your fighters will be able to stand in the middle of a horde of angry enemies and laugh off blows that miss a lot.)

[Delicious Vlish]

All you people that skimp out on tool use are in for a rude awakening very very soon.

 

I can not say more, but Jeff doesn't like you folks and wants to hurt you. He told me so in an email.

 

Your days are numbered.

[Delicious Vlish]

I wont say which enemies, but there are some enemies that connected regularly with my tank. 181% armor score, probably at least 80% hostile effect resistance, and gymnastics. And he got chewed up and spit out.

 

All I could say was, "OUCH!"

 

There are a few things that hit really hard. And magic doesn't do much to them either. It becomes a grueling slugfest.

[Alorael at Large]

BoA was already a rude awakening for the Unlock Doors dependent. A4 is only moderately evil in comparison.

 

—Alorael, who had a particularly good time getting his entire party killed after clearing a nasty cave but before saving when he accidentally triggered a trap.

[Imban]

Well, it's the same way in Blades of Avernum, at least.

 

That said, BoA's the only Avernum I play, and my party composition in that right now is a melee fighter, a pole fighter, an archer, and a mage/priest.

[Delicious Vlish]

You know, that is a really good point about spell casters running out of energy and fighters being able to continue to hack it out.

 

It really caused me to sit down and rethink some of my approach.

 

That is exactly my problem. Spell cost is staggering, and I have never burned through energy potions like I do now.

 

Making 4 spellcasters isn't the right solution either as I have discovered, because after one very very long and particularly grueling dungeon crawl, and I went in there with at least 50 energy potions, I found my self out of energy and up chocolate creek with out a popcicle stick.

 

Not a fun place to be. Four dedicated casters that could not conjure up some summons or blow the enemy to smithereens didn't last long.

 

I don't recall this ever happening to any of my Agents.

[VCH]

Always:

 

1. Human- Knight, full armor shield plate etc, with long sword.

 

2. Slith- Pole wielder, full armor but no shield.

 

3. Human- Mage & Archer.

 

4. Nephilim- Priest, Archer, Trap disarming.

[Alorael at Large]

I can proudly say that my build got me through A4 without requiring the use of a single energy potion. Now, granted, that's ridiculous, especially since I carried around every potion I found for the entire game, but it's something I can claim with pride.

 

—Alorael, who actually used no potions at all. It is a problem of his, and he's trying to work on it. He's managed to almost sip some gremlin wine, but he chickened out at the last second.

[Lilith]

I have the same problem with hoarding items. I save them for when there's absolutely no way to get by without them, and almost inevitably end up not needing them after all.

[Niemand]

Me horde unless stuff? Never! My current BoA party has, it turns out: 163.5 pounds of potions, 97 pounds of scrolls and wands, 118 pounds of spare hand to hand weapons, 199 pounds of spare bows and arrows, 166.5 pounds of herbs, and 144 pounds of spare armor. Luckily in BoA there's no penalty for carrying around so much heavy junk.

[Delicious Vlish]

I like blowing stuff up. I chug through potions like there is no tomorrow, and let loose with all the really fun fireworks. I can incinerate a huge mob in a single round usually.

 

I can make 400 energy disapear in no time at all and all I have to show for it are piles of charred remains and a few items here and there.

[Slith Lord]

I got a group that´s really easy to fight with and they are EXTREMELY deadly! So let´see what we have there:

 

1) A quick paladin with good heal powers and a heavy halberd;

2) a slith archmage with a slith spear and some good strength to use it;

3) an extremely cute healing girl with dagger, shield and good potion brewing skills;

4) and last but not least a strong berserker/archer with mostly sniper eyes!

 

That´s my perfect party, I hope you think that too!

[Igor]

The problem with gremlin wine is that it gets you so drunk you can't hit anything, even while it blesses/shields you.

 

On the other hand, it goes down easy, with a full and slightly sweet flavor, good with weird meat.

[Goldengirl]

I doodled with it at the beggining, but I always use the same party now. One Nephil swords man with nature lore. One Slith spearsman with tool use. Two Humans, one a mage with arcane lore, and another preist with first aid and potions.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Niemand:
Me horde unless stuff? Never! My current BoA party has, it turns out: 163.5 pounds of potions, 97 pounds of scrolls and wands, 118 pounds of spare hand to hand weapons, 199 pounds of spare bows and arrows, 166.5 pounds of herbs, and 144 pounds of spare armor. Luckily in BoA there's no penalty for carrying around so much heavy junk.

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
I have the same problem with hoarding items. I save them for when there's absolutely no way to get by without them, and almost inevitably end up not needing them after all.

Item-hoarders, tremble in fear at the coming of Avernum 4! Jeff shall smite thee in a most foul and unpleasant way!

Seriously, my parties in BoA, A3 and A2 all carried about 20 wands that they never used, my fighters would all have 8 or so extra weapons and suits of armor, everyone had a ton of scrolls, my BoA archer carries a lot of unused ammo (thank you Alderague), everybody's potions account for a lot of weight (I just know those 60 healing potions will come in handy someday), and the parties' excess potion ingredients would seed a forest if planted.

My A4 party keeps maybe four wands (which do get used, since pyrotechnics that nobody can cast are fun), almost no excess armor, no excess ammo (though this is for a different reason than you'd think), and hardly any extra weapons (my archer keeps three swords on hand, but that's it). Granted, they still carry a ton of excess potion ingredients, but that's because they never have enough potions. Excess and greed are punished in A4, and the righteous shall tread lightly and survive. (Who wants to be weighed down by extra armor when you have to flee from a fight?)

[IT .]

Beserker named IT

and rocks in everything

A Nephil archer

A slith Preist

A human Mage with thrown missles

on all avernums

I switch names a lot

[Delicious Vlish]

Yeah, that is a good piece of advice.

 

RUN LIGHT. Being encumbered is positively lethal. There are some fights that you simply must run from. Fast on Feet is good to have, because you don't need to outrun the monsters, just your fellow party members. Always, always make sure that your priest can run the fastest is the most sound piece of advice that I can offer. Death can be quite sudden and swift. There are, well, with out giving away what, things that will chew you up and spit you out. There are enemies that will lay the smack down on you. And when your front line goes, if your mages and such are encumbered with wands and reagents and such, they WILL die.

 

Jeff really did a good job at making tactics important. Some times, it's better to send one character forward to wake up a foe or two and lead them back to a waiting ambush. The alternative is stumbling in to a massive battle you are not prepared for and say, walking in to a mob of 20 or 30 giants all of whom are bored and looking for somebody to crush with rocks.

 

Not only is AVIV epic in size and scope, but some of the battles in game are absolutely astounding in scale.

 

Running shoes are required.

[Kelandon]

I've nearly beaten A4 and I've never run from a fight. I've never been encumbered for long, but I've always used those AP for attack, not retreat.

 

And none of the fights in A4 (at least so far) have been as monumental in scope as the assault on the ziggurat in A2, which still stands out in my mind as my favorite fight of the Avernum Series. Well, it remains to be seen if I like any of the climactic moments of A4.

[Delicious Vlish]

I can think of at least one fight that you must run from in order to complete a quest.

 

I have beat the game twice so far. There are optional fights involving artifacts... And one of these fights involves a whole lot of HARD hitting enemies.

 

Nuts, I really want to discuss strategy. And I don't think I can with out violating the NDA.

 

Oh I hate this.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
Nuts, I really want to discuss strategy. And I don't think I can with out violating the NDA.

Oh I hate this.

This is why email addresses and AIM IDs are in our profiles.

[Delicious Vlish]

My latest party design is different.

 

Up front, human female. Priestess. With Natural Warrior trait. There is one spell... One spell that you want to cast when you are surrounded by enemies. I can't say what it is, but needless to say, this spell is best cast from the center of a mob. So I created a character designed to be a monster chew toy. Lots of defense, priest skills, defensive skills, and the bonuses from the warrior trait. She can really take a beating. Monsters really do not like her. (Monsters tend to beeline for spellcasters now) One day, she will be my religious suicide bomber. Run in to a mob and cast that spell. And then every monster on screen that manages to survive will be drawn to her like flies to honey. The survivors are going to be super pissed. I am going to give her just enough melee skill and dexterity to get Quick Strike. I'll buy a couple of levels of this to make sure that she always goes first. I want monsters focused on her.

 

Up second, a Nephil. Archer and thief. Bow user. Sniper. Pretty straight forward here. His job will be to make the monsters gathered around the priestess look like pincushions and to open stuff.

 

A Slith. Lancer. Exclusive use of spears of both types. For up close pigsticking and long distance puncturing with javelins. He will have enough strength to carry his missiles, will be lightly armored to allow for more missile payload, and a vast majority of his skill points will wind up in the Sharpshooter skill and dexterity. His specialty will be death. Plain and simple. Long distance damage. Mage slayer. His sole purpose will be to achieve the highest damage possible with thrown weapons.

 

And in the last slot, a mage priest. Glass cannon. All offensive geared. Nothing but spell energy and skills. Walking death. Portable nuclear device. The Vapouriser. No strength, no dex, no endurance, nothing but skills that contribute to damage, and lots of it. After the first character runs in to battle and casts that spell, and the missile launchers do their work, this person is clean up. POOF. Enemies all go bye bye.

 

At least, that is how it should work. I hope.

[VCH]

I like having both my priest and mage capable of using crossbows. So that when spell energy runs low they aren't completely useless. Oh, and I carry no extra gear. Usually I sell anything extra.

[Alorael at Large]

In A4 I found myself generally carrying a pair of weapons for my fighters, a ton of potions on my lead character, worn and wielded gear, and some very light rings for emergency resistances on my casters. That's it. It left plenty of room for loot, which is important, and I just didn't have much else I wanted to carry. Wands and scrolls were always worth more as cash than as weapons.

 

The battle in front of the Ornotha Ziggurat is definitely large, but there are battles that struck me as far more interesting in A4. A certain place that shall not be named with many monsters of unspecified characters, which must be defeated for Quest X comes to mind. Yes, this is very specific.

 

[Edit: I've also found several encumberance tricks to work through. The system is like Geneforge's, but having four party members makes it an interesting load distribution problem. Even distribution is only optimal to a certain point, and then it becomes a question of scapegoats.]

 

—Alorael, who now realizes that his party's two casters are a pair of glass cannons by DV's definition, except they're not exceptionally glass. They have a decent chance of surviving a round of surprise attack when properly buffed by maybe a quarter of the way through the game, and that one round means that anything attacking them is dead.

[Synergy]

Specializing skills is definitely more necessary in A4. It seems like eventually I could wind up with a priest with strength 10 by late in the game for the previous Avernums. It's just not possible here. Level-up points need to be spent very efficiently. You're simply not going to have an effective spell caster who can also carry a lot. So, that makes for glass cannons. I keep maxing out my priest's carrying capacity just carrying his outfit and herbs.

 

Archery is curiously modified—I find it useful for every party member.

[Delicious Vlish]

Glass cannons, paper tigers, whatever you wish to call them, as much as it was true for the Agent in Geneforge, it is also true for the spellcasters in AVIV. Do not waste a point. Those five points you spent raising endurance could cost you big time later, when you could have raised Spellcraft or Magery. And didn't because you spent those points on Endurance.

 

And yes, it's a big deal.

[VCH]

I'd rather have a mage that can handle themselves without spells on occasion.

 

Edit

Quote:

Originally written by Line Left:

The battle in front of the Ornotha Ziggurat is definitely large, but there are battles that struck me as far more interesting in A4. A certain place that shall not be named with many monsters of unspecified characters, which must be defeated for Quest X comes to mind. Yes, this is very specific.

Oh hell yea! Quest X yo.

[Student of Trinity]

Hmmm, maybe it's just that I never played the previous Averna, but I've been doing fine with what seemed to me to be the obvious default party: a slith spearer, a human swordsman with a half-hearted sideline in archery, a pure human priest, and a nephil mage with decent tool use. I had to run, sometimes with a single surviving party member, from a couple of fights in the first half of the game; but since then, my team has pretty much been collectively the meanest so-and-so in the valley. I am just heading into what should be the second-last big fight.

 

This boring, standard party seems to benefit, almost disappointingly well, from balance. I conserve spell energy by letting the fighters gradually chop things up whenever this seems safe to do, but I can go Hadoken at need.

 

I'm starting out again with a couple of singleton campaigns, one with a Divinely Blessed warrior/priest, and the other with a nephil mage who will try to play like an Agent. So far the lone mage is totally storming the very beginning of the game, but I seriously wonder how viable he will be for the long haul. The warrior priest has a nice sort of mixture of skills, but I'm a bit worried how he'll do without some of the mage spells.

 

I have only played on Normal difficulty.

[Alorael at Large]

Summoning has become a far more palatable option in A4 from what I've seen. All you need is a wall of bodies to keep your singleton from being gnawed, and a few summons and buffs can probably take care of that. It's a little extra magic spent in each fight, but you'll probably have enough extra skill points to toss into intelligence to handle it.

 

—Alorael, who is tempted to attempt a party with absolutely no melee skill. A bunch of archers would be a challenge, but two archers and two casters or archer/casters might be even more effective than standard setups. The beginning would be tough, and traits would be more problematic, but by the endgame those archers would mangle many supposedly difficult enemies.

[Delicious Vlish]

Actually, the two archers and two mages is a winning combo.

 

Summons. You are going to need lots of summons.

 

With erm, certain enemies, yeah, that's it, you know, those enemies that have spines, gush acid, and scramble your brains if you touch them, missiles are quite effective.

 

Both missile launchers should be trained in bows with some training in thrown missiles. Because some thrown missiles are just that good. Having two Nephils in the party would be ideal actually because they get free skills.

 

With the party I first beat the game with, my front line fighter became an archer out of sheer need because I didn't know what I was doing and the final enemy has all those, well, er, if you play the game you know that you shouldn't just go up and whack those things with a sword because you will die.

[Tyranicus]

Call me old-fashioned and racist, but my parties are always entirely human. I have one pole weapons fighter with skill in tool use, one ranged waepons specialist (I always try to get the Vahnatai razorblades as soon as I can. Those things rock!) with first aid, a mage with nature/cave lore and a backup specialty in melee weapons, and a priest with arcane lore and potion-making. This party configuration has gotten me through A1, A2, A3, and BoA (not to mention Nethergate) just fine.

[Alorael at Large]

Hitting things in melee is also just more difficult, because, well, there's that thing that happens when you hit even ordinary enemies in melee that doesn't happen when you shoot them.

 

By the end of the game, even my pure casters did reasonable damage with bows and hit more than half the time. No, I don't really know why. My fighters were actually less accurate because of low bow skill and very heavy armor.

 

—Alorael, who developed elaborate strategies to defeat the enemies that you don't want to touch in melee, then usually ended up blowing them away with really excessively damaging spells because, well, they were frustrating.

[Delicious Vlish]

I found that a couple of those No Touchie Touchie Enemies were highly magic resistant though. Even spells like Arcane Blow only did like 20 damage to them.

 

Missiles did the trick though. I am finding, when all else fails in AVIV, pumping something full of arrows usually takes care of it.

 

Of course, I learned this the hard way, with one of my first parties, when my fast on feet fighter with way to many action points with items and haste went and stabbed something that charmed him after he stabbed it. On the next round, he killed two party members outright, with one stab for each, and on the next turn, the last surviving member, a mage, found he could not outrun the fighter with the legs of a long distance sprinter.

 

Or course, a charmed archer is no better. You can't outrun those either.

[Igor]

Enemies that charm when you stab em? Wow. Sounds nasty.

 

Those are late-game, right?

[Kelandon]

They're mid-game enough that they're appropriate.

 

One new touch that I really did like — now that the cat's out of the bag, I guess — is that enemies can now riposte often or render effects when hit, effects such as curse, charm, etc. Getting initiative on something to strike first isn't universally effective anymore. It also makes missile weapons and spells that much more useful.

 

I really think that anyone who uses more than one melee fighter for A4 will be at a disadvantage without great caution.

[MrRoivas]

Tell me, how would this party fair?

 

First, Human Sword Warrior, pretty standard, not much else besides maybe a little cave lore and Warrior trait. Next, Nephil with nimble fingers, bows and lockpicking.

Third, Human Preist with Tough Skin, and Potion Making.

Fourth, Human Mage with Natural Mage, and nothing else.

[Kelandon]

That's more or less what I've been using, and I've had few problems that the occasional invulnerability potion wouldn't cure.

[Alorael at Large]

That's the cat I was talking about. It's often better to shoot something than to stab it. There were several battles in which my fighters did more damage to themselves than to enemies thanks to ripose, but arrows can't be riposted. I generally accepted charm, terror, and poison and had a caster cure the problem, but with fewer priests or more caution archery is the better solution.

 

A4 did teach me not to haste any fighters until after the first blow has been landed. Never let anyone attack an unknown critter with enough AP to attack again, possibly taking out the priest who can cure charm!

 

—Alorael, who is strongly convinced that not having at least two of eaech caster type (overlapping works) is a mistake. You'll definitely want to have two priests quite often, and two mages can save the day. Fighters really only have to be able to supply interposing bodies and occasional hits with sword, spear, bow, hurled rock, or spider on a string.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by To the Garrotte:
There were several battles in which my fighters did more damage to themselves than to enemies thanks to ripose, but arrows can't be riposted.

Ah, but arrows don't always work... I can't believe this happens in A4. And they're pathetically weak until you upgrade to something like a blessed longbow. And even then, they still do half the damage that good melee fighters can do.

Still, little is more annoying than to haste/bless/shield your fighter, send them charging at a strange enemy, and have them run back and attack you after landing one blow. (Haven't had a priest taken out in such an encounter yet)

I'm just thrilled to have my fighters (one who's mostly an archer) wielding some classic über-weapons which are finally usable again. After the downgrades they suffered in A3 and BoA (when you can find them), it was nice to see these two sharp things back in the hands of my party. Pointy-side up, of course.

[VCH]

I think I'll still rush straight into fights swords out. Arrows are for cute little kitties, not true adventurers.

[Student of Trinity]

Well, I still have a few big fights left to go, but so far I've been very happy with two melee fighters, and missiles really only used for preliminary softening up or as an alternative to doing nothing for casters conserving spell points. I've had a few episodes of challenging group dynamics, but nothing hard to deal with. My two cents are: Don't try to fight in a compact bunch. Let the infantry do its job of closing with the enemy, even if they waste a round just getting there, while the supporting fire stays at extreme range.

[Delicious Vlish]

A bow backed with a high level of the Sharpshooter skill is not poor secondary to melee. You must pump your missile skill, add to Sharpshooter whenever you get the chance, and pump dexterity a bit.

 

With very little effort, you too can start lobbing off 100+ damage arrows or 150+ thrown missiles.

 

In fact, I have found it was easier to scale up bow damage than it was melee damage. For melee, you must pump dex for to hit, strength for damage, your weapon skill, quick action, and your another weapon skill to unlock the Blademaster skill so you can pump that. And that, well, that is a lot of skill points for not much in return.

 

Meanwhile, a Mage or a Priest that buys two levels in bows and two levels in Sharpshooter from a trainer suddenly has a viable form of secondary damage. Especially if you get one of those bows not designed to do much in the way of physical damage, but other kinds of damage.