Jump to content

what is the best A game


Recommended Posts

A2. Your poll happens to use moderately biased language and is missing BoA and A4, but my answer is the same whether or not you include anything past the trilogy.

 

—Alorael, who wavers now and then but at the moment thinks A2 is his favorite Spiderweb game, period. Nethergate is very close, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, A2 is pretty much the best of the three (even when you include A4, actually).

 

If BoA had been included (as it should have been), I would've been hard-pressed to decide... but A2 would probably still win.

 

EDIT: Oh, and about the vahnatai. They were still novel in A2 (for those of us who hadn't played Exile), and they actually added quite a bit of flavor to the game. Personally, they were a great deal of what hooked me on the series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is so good about Dark Waters? Hydras and undead? Crystal soul tombs and Vahnatai sleeping chambers? Rapids? Do you just really like boats? Please explain the fascination to me.

 

I enjoyed Avernum 2 as well, but mostly because of the bizarre Empire forts. I loved those. But even those were surpassed by Avernum 3's dungeons. You just can't beat the Filth Factory. Rentar is a genius.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dark Waters is all about atmosphere. Mechanically it's nothing special, but the flavor is great. It was even more effective in E2 when losing all your food meant something. Not much, given easy access to Manna, but something.

 

A3 is huge, but the vast majority of the towns are far too generic. The world itself is all pretty generic. It has fun dungeons and some good parts, but as a whole it just doesn't really work for me. Also, while seeing the exact effects of your items is nice, the inflated damage that leaves you doing 199 with a stick just didn't work for me.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think this is a mispoll. People should know enough by now to vote before reading the thread. Everyone's already biased towards A2 because it's so clearly the favorite here, of course, but bias on a neutral subject shouldn't do much unless there's actually some basis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is this 'flavor' you speak of? What makes it different from any other part of the game?

 

Of course Avernum 3 was full of generic towns, it took place in the Empire! It made perfect sense, after all, if you tried to by anything more than 'Weaponsmith' you ran the risk of being thrown into Avernum. I think the blandness added as much to the atmosphere, if not more, than losing your food (which was much better in Nethergate than either Avernum or Exile anyway).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dark Waters was a challenge in exploring while being cut off from help. Like the ZKR scenario in BoA you have to plan for the unknown since you can't go back for something you forgot. Of course after the first time you try to figure out how to maximize the loot without leaving behind something you will need to do everything.

 

Now Exile 2 made you sell or take everything with you. There was no place to leave equipment behind until after Dark Waters. It required a little different strategy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A2! I very much agree with Ephesos, Tyran, and Alorael about the atmosphere of it, particularly in the Dark Waters area. That, and locations like the Empire Archives and Halls of Chaos had a wonderful feeling of mystery. There were always interesting new surprises, like meeting null bugs for the first time, or stepping into the Archives and seeing the odd sight of the ice water floor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I voted for A3. I enjoyed the mixture of the cave world and the surface world. I enjoyed the vastness of the world and crossing waters. Some of those legendary quests were genuinely chilling, challenging, and exciting for me to fulfill. Pit of the Wyrm, etc. Very memorable stuff.

 

The lasers, however, quickly outwore their welcome. I find the Vahnatai irritating, cheesy, and distracting from the fantasy world feeling. That may explain some of my lack of enthusiasm for the much-vaunted A2.

 

-S-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:
Dark Waters was a challenge in exploring while being cut off from help.
Oh, I get it now. This is one of those "it's better because it's more difficult" deals. Figures. I suppose if you prefer things like that to epic battles, cool dungeons, and mystery plot then Avernum 2 is the way to go.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why E- I mean, A2, of course.

A plot based in hope and desperation, the novelty of going off into the unknown to save the the world, the chance to trade insults with everyone's favorite witch, and listen to her peers grumble about her behind her back...

 

But what I think I like the most is that A2 is a story about a bunch of nobodies who take a risk and end up being heroes.

You just can't beat a fulfilling underdog story.

 

--------------------

The Silent Assassin is tired of playing the role of Juliet, and would like to get off of the balcony now, thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I voted A2, but it was very nearly a vote for A3. My reasons are similar to those already expressed by people who also voted A2. The atmosphere was just amazing. It was the only Avernum game I felt claustrophobic in. Which, really, is the whole point.

 

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

I suppose if you prefer things like that to epic battles, cool dungeons, and mystery plot then Avernum 2 is the way to go.

Epic battles? Like the Zigguraut in A2 - the biggest battle in ANY Avernum game, and probably the biggest fight Jeff's coded?

 

Cool Dungeons? Like the Halls of Choas? Or the Zigguraut again? Or any of the Empire forts where the Crystal souls were? Avernum didn't have any generic towns that I can think of, whereas maybe 75% of Valorim was packed with guys called "Merry" and cross-shaped houses.

 

Mystery Plot? Like the whole idea of the Crystal Souls in A2? A3 might have been an okay "whodunnit"-kinda-thing, but A2 had the whole "mystery" thing down much better. And the fact you didn't win the war single-handedly was much more realistic than 4 people entirely destoying a Vahnatai war machine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Epic battles? Like the Zigguraut in A2 - the biggest battle in ANY Avernum game, and probably the biggest fight Jeff's coded?

Cool Dungeons? Like the Halls of Choas? Or the Zigguraut again? Or any of the Empire forts where the Crystal souls were? Avernum didn't have any generic towns that I can think of, whereas maybe 75% of Valorim was packed with guys called "Merry" and cross-shaped houses.

Mystery Plot? Like the whole idea of the Crystal Souls in A2? A3 might have been an okay "whodunnit"-kinda-thing, but A2 had the whole "mystery" thing down much better. And the fact you didn't win the war single-handedly was much more realistic than 4 people entirely destoying a Vahnatai war machine.
What Nikki said. Don't get me wrong, I like A1 and A3 as well, and parts of A1 and A3 I like better than parts of A2. But, overall, I just had a bit more fun playing A2 than I did A1 and A3.

--------------------
Meta is a Greek word meaning "I will try to impress you by using Greek words".
- Peter van der Linden
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Nikki:
Epic battles? Like the Zigguraut in A2 - the biggest battle in ANY Avernum game, and probably the biggest fight Jeff's coded?
I don't consider a battle epic just because you are having hordes and hordes of foot soldiers thrown at you. I mean epic boss battles. You guys talk about atmosphere, how about the Rentar/Erika duel, in which your measly characters were powerless, your only goal to survive long enough to reach that panel. I also thought the alien slime was cool, despite not being particularly difficult.
Quote:
Cool Dungeons? Like the Halls of Choas? Or the Zigguraut again? Or any of the Empire forts where the Crystal souls were?
I already admited the Empire Forts were cool (none of them were in Dark Waters) but I still think Avernum 3's dungeons are superior. The Filth Factory is my personal favorite, but how about all those artifact dungeons. I'll admit Avernum 3 loses points for not having the Tower of Shifting Floors, but still.
Quote:
And the fact you didn't win the war single-handedly was much more realistic than 4 people entirely destoying a Vahnatai war machine.
But you did win the war single-handedly, without Gharzad and that portal, the Empire was hurting. And I thought you liked underdog stories? Weren't you intimidated by the fact that you had to accuse not one, but three of the most powerful being in the world of making the mosters? Crossing that bridge to see the legendary Erika only to accuse her of a crime, or wading through lava to meet the most powerful of dragons, knowing you're about to piss her off, that's atmosphere.

Edit: Really, the 'Vahnatai war machine" was pretty much just Rentar and a couple of friends (whom you quickly dispatched). That's why I liked Avernum 4 so much, too. You had the feeling when you met her that she was really lonely, no one was helping her, and she was hurt by that. You beat her because she was one mage, powerful, but still one mage.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both Avernums (actually, all three) have some great dungeons. Let's call it a wash.

 

A2 has Garzahd (twice), Angierach's assorted nasties, Limoncelli, the Ziggurat, and Gaddika. All of those fights make sense in the plot and provide a real challenge.

 

A3 has the Bojar, the Alien Slime, Elhioc, the huge battles between the troglos and giants (the best of the game, in my opinion, even though you don't have to do anything but run), the crystal in the Golem Factory, three crystal souls you aren't supposed to kill, and Rentar. Most of the fights aren't too exciting, really.

 

Mystery? Maybe, but A3's plot is so unobtrusive that you can ignore it until the answer is handed to you on a silver plate. It also becomes fairly obvious from the increasingly heavy evidence (not the special item evidence, things like vahnatai cloaks left here and there) from the Filth Factory onwards.

 

—Alorael, who would actually strongly recommend starting with A1 rather than A2. It's best to start with the beginning, and A1 isn't much worse at all. In fact, the only thing it's really missing is a quest log.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Enraged Slith:
Was Limoncelli harder in Exile 2 or Avernum 2?
He was harder to get to in Exile since if you wanted to maximize looting, then you have to fight the first level more than once to reach the upper floor. Avernum 2 simply increased the patrols outside after you start attacking the fort.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Alorael:
three crystal souls you aren't supposed to kill
I think these were the hardest fight ever. I actually had to save, edit my characters back to health, and reload a few times for this one.
Quote:
Most of the fights aren't too exciting, really.
Well, that's kind of harsh. I don't even think you believe that. What makes you say this?

The Garzahd fights were some of the worst in the series. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the man and his work, but he had a crappy final battle compared to Rentar and even Hawthorne. His whole final fortress was boring, too. Limoncelli was pretty cool, but mostly because of the little description boxes that came up describing what he looked like and how he died.

Avernum 3 had the Tower of Zkal (not only an awesome dungeon but a real challenge for those masochists out there), that one drake's castle, and lets not forget the Monestary of Madness (you know you love it).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the man and his work, but he had a crappy final battle compared to Rentar and even Hawthorne. His whole final fortress was boring, too. Limoncelli was pretty cool, but mostly because of the little description boxes that came up describing what he looked like and how he died.
Garzahd's final battle sucked in A2 because it wasn't designed to be fought like that. Garzahd's stats in E2 were drastically different, and the suggested method for beating him (mindduelling) was purged entirely from A2. The fortress wasn't great, but were the others better? At least it wasn't full of pylons.

Agreed about Limocelli, though. He was done well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both the games have great dungeons. It's not worth bringing them all up.

 

My objections to A3's important battles? In order... Bojar was a generic wizard who happened to get a name. Quick fight, nothing special. The Alien slime is just a lot of pounding with occasional detours to kill the spawned slimes. Boring and not difficult. Elhioc was at least hard. The golem crystal was hard to fight, but it's more of a puzzle since you can kill it with lasers and not get your hands dirty. Rentar should be an "epic" fight, but you're not actually supposed to kill her. She summons faster than you can kill. The result is that it's pointless to actually engage in combat. All you do is slog slowly towards the control panel.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't actually think Avernum has any truly exciting and necessary battles. A4 started making fights more interesting, but before that there really just isn't much. The Ziggurat, the troglos and giants, and Rentar are huge battles, but otherwise they're nothing but more hack and slash.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
—Alorael, who doesn't actually think Avernum has any truly exciting and necessary battles. A4 started making fights more interesting, but before that there really just isn't much. The Ziggurat, the troglos and giants, and Rentar are huge battles, but otherwise they're nothing but more hack and slash.
Bashing the whole series at once to disprove my points isn't proving how Avernum 2 is the best. I still don't understand what you see in it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally written by Excalibur:
I think the golem factory is cool. You have to navigate through conveyor belts ad try not to fall into the lava pool in the center.
In E3, yes. In A3, conveyor belts were replaced by lasers as the golem gimmick. The Factory is therefore much less glitchy but stilll mind-bendingly frustrating, and only sometimes in a good way.

Quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Bashing the whole series at once to disprove my points isn't proving how Avernum 2 is the best. I still don't understand what you see in it.
I've explained what I see in it, and you obviously disagree. Bashing the whole series wasn't trying to prove my point, it was a commentary on the battles as a whole. They range from mindless to challenging and somewhat interesting, but there really aren't any that made me really think that something incredibly neat was being done.

—Alorael, who now thinks back on Nethergate and realizes that one of its strengths is that it relies very little on killing a single important enemy. The only important killings are Castle Aethdoc, which can involve more subtle assassination; Samael, who isn't a fight at all; and the final battle in the Spire of Ages, which also isn't really about critical characters. The most important enemies you face are your four counterparts that you never meet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...