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alhoon

GF2 - The gates are impregnable

71 posts in this topic

The big thing in G2 was that it introduced a second dimension to the sects.  Instead of just being about servile rights, now the sects also dealt with the question of responsible use of power (which was a separate question in G1).  So you get:

 

Loyalists -- no servile rights, restrain power

Awakened -- servile rights, restrain power

Barzites -- no servile rights, unrestrained power

Takers -- servile rights, unrestrained power

 

This misses a few nuances -- the Awakened are less absolute in restraining power than the Shaper Council; the Loyalists are less absolute in hating serviles than the Barzites; etc.  But it is the basic setup.  See also:

 

http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/9051-geneforge-philosophy-gridg5/#comment-97023

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Servile rights or creation rights? The Barzites treat the creations HORRIBLY. All creations. Except that one Gazer. They make no effort to make creations comfortable and their "pacification pylons" cause creations pain. OK, the Shaper cities are also full of that terrible whips that they use to discipline serviles and creations, but they don't keep them in constant pain.

 

11 hours ago, Triumph said:

...So they are rebellious but NOT rebels? :p  LOL.

 

No it's not. The Shapers are know to exterminate those who violate their law (as you've referenced repeatedly with the story of Litalia et al.). Every group in the Drypeak Mountains knows it's only a matter of time before the Shapers come and try to wipe them out for they way they break from Shaper orthodoxy. It's perfectly possible for an Awakened or Barzite to be making war preparations while insisting they don't want war and only want to be left independent to go their own way. "I don't want to fight a war with the Shapers, but I also don't want to be completely defenseless when the Shapers inevitably come to murder me." (The Takers, of course, do desire to wage offensive war against the Shapers, so that's a little different.)

 

 

Not met the Takers, but I have met Drakons in GF3-5 so I know what you mean.

Now from what I've seen: (Have practically not made any faction quests except give Carnelian spores I stole from the Bazrites)

Awakened "prepare" for war by trusting not-so-slowly going insane Tuldaric and a school of magic. Beyond that, it's crossing their fingers and hoping that this time, the Shapers won't kill them all. They are horribly unprepared for what's coming. One Shaper can't take them. 8 Shapers can simply by spam-Shaping battle creations from their corner in greater rate than they can. And 8 Shapers, with a few guards in a fort, are safe enough from everything the Awakened can throw at them except treachery.

And for some reason I didn't see vats of poison or Tuldaforged assassin serviles. The servile infiltrators of the Awakened just try to find disloyal serviles, not preparing to slit the throat of sleeping Shapers.

I applaud, I really do, that the Awakened are pacifists and if it comes to war they want to "play fair".

But ... SERIOUSLY?!  They would perhaps delay a real Shaper force for... 2 weeks?

 

Bazrites rebellious but not rebels:

I meant the real rebels. Those that I can see myself aligning with. Not the worse faction I've seen in Geneforge (including Taygen's faction) after the Monarch.  

 

Bazrites preparing for a  defensive war:

They claim they do, but it's more like "Of course, all these you see, the glorious Drakon army we assume people that used 3 canisters can control, the severely mistreated alphas and glaahks we assume will remain obedient to us once we stop mentally torturing them for a moment, is JUST for defense Shaper! Really!" *wink and smug smile*

"You just winked."

"Nah it was your imagination" *wink and smug smile*

I am sure the Awakened are right about the Bazrites. They are preparing for an offensive war with the Shapers but they don't want to burn down the whole Empire like the Takers. But they know (and they are right) that they have to do more than sit in a valley and fend off attacks for ever. They know they have to march out and burn and loot and destroy to force Shapers to give them independence.

 

 

Now, I ASSUME that the rumors are right and Takers are making a huge creation army. I hope they're not too Ghaldring-y yet and they want to use that army to conquer the Shaper Empire, dismantle the magocracy and institute freedom for creations. Not just  dismantle Magocracy and institute magocracy 2, the reptilian version.

(No spoilers please; I have some way to go before I find the Takers; A lot of Barzites to talk to still. I was in a discussion with Bazrahl when I started drifting off from exhaustion and went to bed last time).

Edited by alhoon

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21 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I meant the real rebels. Those that I can see myself aligning with.

So the true definition of "rebel" is actually "those who share my views"? ;)

 

 

I will also just say that you may not have seen all there is to see of the Awakened's plans. They may still be naively idealistic, but they also may not be quite as out of touch as you think.

feat. Ganrick likes this

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21 minutes ago, Triumph said:

So the true definition of "rebel" is actually "those who share my views"? ;)

 

 

I will also just say that you may not have seen all there is to see of the Awakened's plans. They may still be naively idealistic, but they also may not be quite as out of touch as you think.

 

Good. I want to align with them, but ... they seem at the time completely hopeless. I can attach myself to a poor-seaworthiness ship in a coming storm, but not an already sinking one.

If I may, I wonder how their views survived to reach Astoria, or if Astoria came to the conclusion without realizing she's an Awakened supporter.

 

What I meant to say is "The Rebels of GF4-5" (The GF3 ones are even more obnoxious than Drakons so I pretend they don't exist. I am looking at you Hoge and Litalia.)  

Edited by alhoon

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I will say that the only sect I have actually completed is the Awakened, but I can tell that it is definitely the 'best' end to the game. All I'm going to say...

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Interesting question about Astoria.  I don't think there's any indication that their views propagated successfully.  Even in G3 their disappearance is barely mentioned at all.  Although, if there is enough memory of the villages on Sucia to name towns after them in G5, presumably that includes memory of the Awakened as well.  (Not a spoiler, I think, since Pinner and company talk about it.)

 

10 minutes ago, TheKian said:

I will say that the only sect I have actually completed is the Awakened, but I can tell that it is definitely the 'best' end to the game. All I'm going to say...

 

 

I think I disagree.  The situation at the end is a little reminiscent of another ending from later in the series, actually.  (Not spoiling which.)  There is a more satisfying (and better-sounding) ending, though you may not be aware it's an option.

 

Come to think of it, though, the Awakened ending may be the single best piece of evidence to support one of those contentions Alhoon is always making ;)

 

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Just now, Cotra, when the walls fell said:

I think I disagree.  The situation at the end is a little reminiscent of another ending from later in the series, actually.  (Not spoiling which.)  There is a more satisfying (and better-sounding) ending, though you may not be aware it's an option.

 

Come to think of it, though, the Awakened ending may be the single best piece of evidence to support one of those contentions Alhoon is always making ;)

 

But the Tr- oh, wait, no spoilers.

 

Anyway, do you refer to the unaligned option? As I understand it, that's probably the canon result of G2, right?

 

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The Awakened, Barzite, and Taker endings to G2 are all fascinating pieces of alternative history to me, what-if scenarios for the Geneforge world. We can see presented with the godlike authority of the game's author (rather than mere speculation) how it could have been. In a way, I think these endings make the canon ending more meaningful, by showing that things didn't have to happen to way they did. The course of history was contingent on the choices made by the Shaper Apprentice, and had those choices been different, instead of the events we know as G3-5, history would have taken a different course.

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Met Barzahl at last. FIRST thing I noticed, is that Lying Zakary the Deceiver's misdirection, knows no bounds. He told me Barzahl was a Guardian. HE IS A SHAPER. Should have expected it. Frankly I can't think of any statement of importance that Zakary didn't lie at.


 The intro describes Barzahl as a cruel-to-creations arrongant-to-blindness Litalia. Can't say I am impressed. Litalia seemed more threatening just because she wasn't making such obvious tactically flawed decisions.
The man himself explains to me that they will do better than the Geneforge, that it was crude. Good going buddy, everyone should have goals.


I am now looking to find his library, steal his books and some research, find someone to train me to make Drayks and leave this god-forsaken place of madmen.
I will not sabotage their machinery that keeps the creations suffering at the time (and that's a hard decision) in order to be able to progress the story before I'm locked out of their ending so that I can retract less when I try to complete all of them.
Of course, on the way to the Radiant College I had to meet some serviles that have been treated badly and do errands for them...
And I have to find swamp spores so a Servile here can make a cure for the disease. I've seen one Swamp and I didn't like it. It was the roamer-fest.
Also I met a Taker Spy. Another one in a long list of Takers that tell me that I should go to their fortress and that I will be attacked viciously on the way. I start to see where Litalia got the attitude of "Look, I won't stop making monsters. But I will change you so you can defeat the monsters I send at you".


RADIANT COLLEGE:
Met a nice modified superhuman alchemist. She says Bazrites realized the canisters make people mad so they give a couple to you first, see if you adapt well and then they go to the good stuff. And they have a college to educate Shapers in more traditional ways. Not bad. It seems the Bazrites are heading towards the right direction in that regard, but slowly. Too slowly. Either I or Litalia and her buddies will wipe them out first.
Most probably I'll sabotage them and Litalia will take care of them.
I also found a Gazer with a familiar name: Siakus Eye. Was he in one of the other games or I remember wrong? He seems quite obedient here. No rogue tendecies.
Gazers seem easier to handle than Drayks; the Drayks of the Barzites need a very firm hand (and torture) to remain loyal. Speaking of Drayks, in the Radiant college I led the golems to the cryodrayks they positively wrecked them! The Drayks didn't even got a hit.

Shaper rushness and puresteel:
When Litalia and her superiors wiped out the Bazrites, they didn't take note on how they make puresteel. So we're left with just a handful of people in the Dera Reaches able to make puresteel.


WAY TO THE TAKERS:
Met a Barzite guarding a road. He tells me to explain myself. Having met with Barzahl, I tell him "Nevermind, I'll leave". He calls me a spy and kills me in one shot. :/
Hide from him in side passages. Deactivate some mines. Move forward. Something that I didn't even see hit me for 95 hp (I have ~55). :/

 

QUESTION:
Barzal's place is -crawling- with 650hp guards. Is it possible to wipe them out by late game? Zakary I will probably be able to take cause I will just camp in his essence pool and send waves of tier 3-4 creations to do the dirty work. Or perhaps I'll finally invest in blow-up roamers and have them soften up the enemy.

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Good. I'll make Litalia's job easier then. After all, the Barzites are after the Awakened, so I assume the crazed witch will first wipe out my friends and then move to my enemies.

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Yeah, the Barzahl Guardian/Shaper thing I think is just a continuity error.  Though it might also be plausible that Barzahl was a Guardian, but gave up his warrior ways and focused on shaping as he augmented himself more and more.

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Yeah, GF2, which I like and enjoy very much, seems to suffer from several flaws that the other games don't have.

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16 hours ago, feat. Ganrick said:

Yeah, the Barzahl Guardian/Shaper thing I think is just a continuity error.  Though it might also be plausible that Barzahl was a Guardian, but gave up his warrior ways and focused on shaping as he augmented himself more and more.

I should like to point out that people in Rising call him 'Guardian Barzahl'. It strikes me that it is more likely that he was indeed a Guardian, but started pretending to be a Shaper because of his research.

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After a lot of frustration, reloads, inglorious deaths, rage-quits, dead-end run-arounds... I cannot breach the Bazrite Gate to go to the Takers. I have to find a different route, perhaps from the Awakened or something.

I can't even take my frustration to that rude Barzite guardian either, because he's too tough for me yet. He can kill me before I manage to run away and my creations have a low chance to hit him even if I do escape...

 

But as we say here, "laughs better, the one laughing in the end " you arrogant Bazrite piece of crap. Make all the snide comments you want about your gates and pylons and power. You don't know that

 

 

 


Litalia_is_coming.jpg

 

(Yes, I spent the time to edit the image to make that. That's how frustrated I am at that gate. I have not explored half the Awakened part, so I have no idea where the other route would be)

 

Edited by alhoon

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4 hours ago, alhoon said:

After a lot of frustration, reloads, inglorious deaths, rage-quits, dead-end run-arounds... I cannot breach the Bazrite Gate to go to the Takers. I have to find a different route, perhaps from the Awakened or something.

I can't even take my frustration to that rude Barzite guardian either, because he's too tough for me yet. He can kill me before I manage to run away and my creations have a low chance to hit him even if I do escape...

 

Stun lock 'em with blessed Glaahks. Killing the Guardian to the north of Rising (two zones up) is especially important, since he's the object of a quest that gets you a free Skein of Wisdom.
 

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Blessed... Glaahks? I'm 19 level. I cannot afford Glaahks since I spent my money on Drayks (not worth the money, bad investment of 3000 coins. Damned Barzites)

My Vlish cannot hit him, except Horrorshiver (Terror Vlish).

Edited by alhoon

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Do you have no leadership alhoon ? Iirc you only need around 6 or so to get Krogst to calm down. And same with the gate guards. And just fyi he is a special QA trainer, so maybe don't kill him yet ?

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I will kill him because I don't like him at all. Or, well, let Litalia kill him. Or actually kill him because I want the Wisdom charm. :p 

I can convince him to let me go. But if I attack him, he kills me.

 

The gate guards? I found some serviles in a gate house but they just didn't attack me, they didn't deactivate the Pylons or anything. Can I convince them to let me pass? I have leadership 10.

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There is a box in the guard house with the serviles that deactivates the pylons.They should let you go to it if you tell them you forgot your pass, you def have enough leadership. After that you have to hit 2 more boxes iirc on each side of the gate and that opens it and clears the area so you can finally go north.

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