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alhoon

GF2 - The gates are impregnable

71 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

The main thing that has kept me so far away from GF2, after a lot of people (this site and others) mention it as either the best of the games or one of the best instalments is... the clunky system.

 

But I think I found a solution so that I can enjoy the game. Be warned: The way I will choose to enjoy the game will not conform with most of you.

1. I will play on easy. I do that  so

- that I can defeat battles without frustration and reloads after losing my favorite pets. I am one of the persons that reloads when they lose a creation. I am, at heart, a lifecrafter. I care about them.

- that I can avoid challenge areas and their artifacts \ rewards, unless I am interested in them story-wise.

- that I can avoid opening my inventory screen and character screen as much as possible.

- that I can focus on mechanics\leadership without being weak in combat + endurance to survive.

 

2. I will cheat to get +10 strength to carry stuff and a +2 to intelligence to have more spell energy and essence. I will cheat to get the tinkerer gloves so that I won't have to look for them. Once I find Ice Spray and later Essence Orbs, I will cheat to increase my character's ability with those by +3 levels do be able to do some damage.

 

3. I will play a Shaper. I know Guardians are stronger. But I like Shapers.

 

4. I will play with an eye towards the Building Rebellion. Which may prove hard.

It was near impossible in GF3 since while I abhor the Shaper Tyranny and all... I started as already a member of this elite, privileged group. People were talking to me with respect and all. And my personal convictions would have me surrender my place of power and superiority... over a bunch of people that killed everyone my character associated with the past 4 years except one teacher that allowed them to do it. Before trying to kill me for entering the wrong inn. The main argument of the mass murderess bully to my character as he escaped the destruction of the place he called home for the past 4 years was "Look, society is going down. You can either join us or go down with a sinking ship. We killed all your friends. We may kill you. I will allow you to make your choice"

:/ Not very convincing argument.

Regardless I have high hopes that at least some of the Rebels will be better this time around. The Drakons are just being made I think, so that eliminates the bad part of the Rebels as bossy leaders and Shaper-wannabes.

 

 

 

WHY WOULD I DO THOSE?

In order to avoid clicking inventory and character sheet as much as possible. To Avoid having to micromanage. To avoid having to worry about equipment.

 

Why not cheating my character to Godhood? Because I want difficult parts to feel difficult. The way I will play the game, ignoring equipment and sensible character creation in favor of story will heavily penalize me, so I believe it would be balanced out.

Edited by alhoon

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Posted (edited)

Now, the requests for help and questions:

 

Does what I suggest above makes sense? I.e. will ignoring opening half of the chests, ignoring areas that are equipment heavy, ignoring good equipment be equal to +2 intelligence, +3 to my battle spells and easy game?

Will it make the game too easy and I would be able to defeat many things that I shouldn't?

Would it be frustrating because easy difficulty is not that easy and equipment is as important as GF4-5?

 

 

The purpose here is: Have a game of more-or-less expected difficulty, without bothering with the antiquated equipment and character sheet. If I could just go on with my starting equipment and NEVER open the screen I would be glad.

 

EDIT: In hindsight, I also scripted myself a +2 to firebolt, and a +2 to dex just because.

EDIT2: And I also changed the sprites of some serviles (unarmed) to GF5 ones and Thands to GF3 ones.

 

Please, avoid spoilers. I have managed to keep myself willfully unaware of most stuff GF2.

Edited by alhoon

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The good news is that Shapers are very strong in G2.  And like G3, it is a favorable game for the "never let my creations die" approach.  So you shouldn't have any problems.

 

And in light of that I don't think the free points in Int or Battle Magic will change your experience that much.  G2 Shapers on Easy are already easy.

 

I personally found the rebellious sect to be more compelling in G1 than in G2.  None of the joinable sects seem particularly great in G2.  But there are some very satisfying ways to play it.  And the game does include easily the most widely beloved character of the entire series.

 

G2 may really be the height of your difference in experience from most people who play.  You've already experienced the huge war, but know nothing of the G1 experience, which was also completely different.  (Seriously, when you finally hit G1, a few zones in you'll be like: oh.  Oh.  OH.)

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Posted (edited)

There are rebels in GF1?! But there are no Shapers in the island I assumed for generations since it has been abandoned for centuries... Do you mean those types that say "Once upon a time, centuries ago, there are some big mages that created us. They were treating us horribly. We hate them \ we want them to consider us as equals" ?

 

So far, I've met a careless, bossy agent. She's less obnoxious than Hoge for the time though and despite her demeaning, snide remarks she did care enough for her apprentice to teach him how to make an artilla. In minutes. Obviously the "explanation" for Shapers trained to learn fast holds true even back here. A lazy approach IMO. The text could easily say "it takes you a few hours" or "she fills you in to missing crucial elements that have been purposefully omitted from your training."

 

 But the first shock was about there. Sure, I understand it's game balance thing but to hear a Shaper say "Hmm... Rogues are here. Strange. Anyway, I left some books for magic for you, unattended, in a place that has rogues and I told you that there is a chance you would die, hence those books may be stolen by rebels outsiders." That's too careless...

Also, Agent Shanti is... blue. I assume that if she has used canisters illegally or the Geneforge I would have been told that she has a strange color and glow. Also, she seems a bit... rebel material even if she's (so far) very anti-rogue ("erase them or there'll be chaos!" pfffft. Tyrant. From chaos, there'll be peace. Your days are numbered. We will prevail).

I hope I can convince her to join the Rebellion faction I'll choose (No spoilers please)

 

Yet something doesn't feel right about her (no spoilers please). Perhaps she knows more than she seems to know. And her demeanor of "I will go in, interview them and we'll leave fast" + "Agent" makes me think that she plans to assassinate the two Shapers (or at least the thought is not alien to her). I may be wrong though...  

 

 

Looking for the quicksave button, I actually found this in the manual:

"Shanti is highly experienced. She is also annoyed to have to watch an apprentice. Fortunately for her, she has an outlet for her frustration in the constant abuse and menial tasks she heaps upon you."

Oh great... another Shaper to go to my list of "why the Rebellion was inevitable and the right thing to do" She didn't seem so bad in the tutorial though. Bossy, but not abusive.

 

Edited by alhoon

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Posted (edited)

Shanti keeps being hilarious. She tells to my character's face that she left some Fyoras to see if I would survive +

"Scared? Of Creations? We are the absolute masters of the life we create. Heaven help us all if it's ever otherwise."

+ "Shapers are respected in part because we hoard magic and kill those that try to get it"

 

I plan to work for the "Otherwise" Tyrant!

Edited by alhoon

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1 hour ago, Slartibus said:

And the game does include easily the most widely beloved character of the entire series.

 

My first thought upon reading this was "Wow, I knew Slarty loved Aodare, but that seems a bit much." :lol:  But then I started wondering if you actually had someone else in mind. :rolleyes:

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Posted (edited)

I'm mainly in the game to locate and talk with a person called Carnelian. The rest are footnotes in my book.

 

EDIT: Captain Takena (a captain in Drypeak colony) warned us to not try any treachery while we're there for Shaper business. It seems he has the same feeling about Shanti not being above plunging a dagger on his boss.

 

EDIT2: Ahhh, Zakary... "The other Shaper is dead. [no word how]. The colony is failing [big news!]. But I believe we can turn it around with a lot of work. That's all. You can leave now, that's the completion of your mission."

And he's surrounded by guards. Why is he so scared that Shanti would kill him? After all, he's also a Shaper. Even if Shanti is allowed to just waltz in and kill a Shaper without trial or anything, he's also powerful I would assume. [Rhetorical questions, thinking out loud here, don't answer please]

 

EDIT3: Zakary tries to sell us that a full Shaper, Bazhral, was killed by a thand, away from the base (and is angered when I asked why he didn't do it here that was safer) and his body was eaten.

Sure buddy. Totally believable. Your shifty attitude and nervousness adds to the mantle of innocence you wear.

 

EDIT4: There's an air of mystery around this place. Rogues showing up and practically besieging the town but not strong enough to do any harm to it. A dead Shaper. Zakary sitting on his butt holding what seems to be a battalion of troops around him without taking out the rogues.

And nobody has informed the council, probably by order of Zakary.

And another thing: Zakary and Bazhral arrived with twenty apprentices 5 years ago. I haven't met any apprentices, just a Shaper that was there and she was clear to make it known, before Zakary. So, either the apprentices finished their apprentiship (which is, I think 3-4 years) and never looked back or they're somewhere else.

 

 

QUESTION:

Should I keep Shaper Equipment for quests or sell it?

Edited by alhoon

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There is someone you'll meet who particularly desires shaper equipment.

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Posted (edited)

thanks

 

EDIT: I am irked that people in that backwater hovel are done with the honorifics. Shapers are referred to as "Zakary" and "Shanti" not "Shaper Zakary" or "Agent Shanti".

 

QUESTION2: Doesn't XP for killing monsters gets reduced by number of Creations in GF2? I got 3 creations with me (I grabbed a Thand that is "level 3" and punches as hard as my 12lvl Cryora) and I have no XP penalty. From some monsters I get negligible XP but often I get 50, whatever level I am.

 

EDIT2: Making cunning rogues is as far from Shaper Law as anything you can do? LoL. I would like the see the text for this protagonist if he saw a Spawner (which in my opinion are about as bad as the Unbound; You're shaping Shapers that Shape rogues. Alwan's Shapers put up Spawners in GF5 but at least, controlled. )

 

EDIT3: I met a retired Shaper Hermit, Sharon. At first, I liked her as much as the Lethia Pass Turret Shaping Shaper (forget his name) in GF5. She seems... placid, happy and without something to prove. She welcomed me there even though she wants her privacy (and she wasn't allowed to retire, i.e. is a deserter) without wanting something from me. A refreshing change.

Of course, she does dangerous experiments, cause there can't be a good, near-sane Shaper. There's a place with dead things, creations she tried to fuse with objects. Why she would do that, and not just read how doors, golems, the usual part-machine shaper equipment is made is beyond me.

 

I am glad that in later years the council is more lax in that no-retirement rule. Yes, retired Shapers are still rare but they can do other stuff like become smiths (Fitz) or tend a small farm or something (there's one in GF4 that has been re-conscripted to fight the Monarch; and she Shapes the player character to give Spellcraft of all things...).

 

EDIT4: :eek: A -foreigner's- book on Shaping?! Do I see the origins of Fyoras in a random deserter\retired Shaper's home in the middle of nowhere?

Questions, questions...

Edited by alhoon

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6 hours ago, alhoon said:

There are rebels in GF1?! But there are no Shapers in the island I assumed for generations since it has been abandoned for centuries... Do you mean those types that say "Once upon a time, centuries ago, there are some big mages that created us. They were treating us horribly. We hate them \ we want them to consider us as equals" ?

I chose my words very carefully because you asked for no spoilers.  So I am avoiding even spoiling for you what the sects are in either game.

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5 hours ago, Triumph said:

 

My first thought upon reading this was "Wow, I knew Slarty loved Aodare, but that seems a bit much." :lol:  But then I started wondering if you actually had someone else in mind. :rolleyes:

Lol.  No, not Aodare.  I think you know who I'm referring to.

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2 hours ago, alhoon said:

QUESTION2: Doesn't XP for killing monsters gets reduced by number of Creations in GF2? I got 3 creations with me (I grabbed a Thand that is "level 3" and punches as hard as my 12lvl Cryora) and I have no XP penalty. From some monsters I get negligible XP but often I get 50, whatever level I am.

Yes, it does.  The difference for adding each single creation is relatively small, and there is rounding and caps involved, so it is possible to get an experience value where having one extra creation doesn't make a difference.

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Thanks.
And thanks for not spoiling the factions. They have been mentioned in GF3-5 but I don't know how accurate the descriptions were.

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Posted (edited)

Howdy! That was a major slip I found in GF2: There's a farmer that tries to teach himself some magic. Not shaping magic. And the game tells me that "since it's not Shaping, that is legal". That goes in the face of what I was told in the beginning of this very game and practically everything else about mages in GF. This tidbit contradicts the same game.

Of course, I got Searer for free, so I don't complain too much.

 

QUESTION: I have already found a ton of books. Since training is so expensive (and since I don't bother too much with pick up stuff that may or may not be sellable) can I go along most of the game using just 3-4 canisters and mainly books? Avoiding the training costs*?

PS. If I use a book, it closes a training slot for me. Which is kinda understandable. But does training first and then getting to books gives me an extra +1?

 

*Without making the game too hard. You all told me that on easy with Shaper it would be peace of cake. Well, it isn't. :) When I get the messages "don't go there" and I do, I get my butt handed to me. When I go to areas that people say "You threatened there? A shaper? pffft, you'll be fine!" it is that way.

 

EDIT: Agent Shanti, finally, admitted my worth as I found the secret tunnel. Strangely, I could not tell her about a force of armed serviles guarding it. Just that it was well guarded. Shaper's Zakary dialogue didn't change.

 

EDIT: And a nice lush valley is DIRECTLY BEHIND the cruel and unforgiving wasteland of the Drypeaks... Either Zakary is blind or something really weird goes on there.

EDIT2: And Agent Shanti chose that particular time  to go Tunnel-hunting or whatever. Now that I got a message that the whole town is looking at me tensely because I found out that the "Failing" colony was in front of a nice lush successful hidden, secret, guarded and large valley. I'll go talk to Zakary and if he gives me the same I'll ... do nothing actually since he has 600hp, two turrents and 4 guards.

Edited by alhoon

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1 hour ago, alhoon said:

PS. If I use a book, it closes a training slot for me. Which is kinda understandable. But does training first and then getting to books gives me an extra +1?

 

Yeah, it does. Was fixed in G3 and not an issue in G1 due to flat skill costs.

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Posted (edited)

Still on my way to Zakary. Still fuming about the whole charade and using my little authority to shower Shanti-like levels of abuse to Outsiders accusing each and every one for lying to us. At least that explains why every last soldier Zakary had in his command is a flaming idiot that makes Serviles look smart.

 

I can't understand why Zakary lied!? He could well have been open to everyone, saying "You know what? We're doing our experiments further in the valley. We have a guarded tunnel so that if needed we can shut the whole place down." Why hiding behind a failed colony? Why even let the colony fail and remain a dustblown ruin?

(No spoilers please, just letting off steam for Zakary wasting my time in a barren, sandy wasteland chasing away rogues)

 

Another thing that irked me. We were told Barzahl was "killed and eaten" by a "thand". Why would he be Shaping a thand in the first place? How could a Thand be so powerful as to kill Barzahl and take him away before Zakary could wipe it out? What kind of idiots does Zakary thinks he deals with?! The amount of smelling BS he spews rivals only the amount of non-smelling BS he fed us about the failed colony.

Agent Shanti is probably right that Barzahl is alive and hiding. Probably everything Zakary told us is not just a lie, it's the opposite of truth. At first I thought that Zakary murdered Barzahl or something.

 

EDIT: In my rounds of "Shaper Zakary is a pathetic liar!" \ "What did you know about that?!"  before I go confront that lying piece of Ornk poop, Zakary, I went to the other "nice" Shaper, Sharon, that apparently tells me "Well, there was tons of materials and books and resources going through that tunnel. I figured something was happening." So nice that nobody in town told me or Shanti about that.

And that she believes Barzahl went North with "all the others". So apparently not everyone from the apprentice horde that Deceiving Zakary the liar brought with him finished their rounds and returned. Many Shapers hiding, illegally, outside the system, for 5 years, in a valley that should not exist.

And Sharon has the audacity to tell me about Shaper Law and the ways of the council.

What kind of inept system the Council uses to miss something like that!? Reminds me of Greenwood island (GF3) that Litalia pushed 5 Spawners and Mad Creator in mine, made a whole lab, and for months nobody noticed while the mine was operational. At least in Harmony, the Rebels put up the Spawners in a far-away place and the expanding ring of rogues eventually reached the Shapers.

 

At least, she gave me a bracelet.

 

On another note, I can see the appeal of the game. It is indeed different than GF4-5 in the part that it's more mystery than desperate fight for survival \ changing the world. Early GF3 was somewhat like that.

Edited by alhoon

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2 hours ago, alhoon said:

You all told me that on easy with Shaper it would be peace of cake. Well, it isn't. :) When I get the messages "don't go there" and I do, I get my butt handed to me.

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised about this -- you are a willful one!  But if you choose to ignore the obvious hints the game drops, that's on you.  The game isn't hard, alhoon is hard ;)

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Oh, apologies. I was joking, that was not an accusation. As I explained in the first post, I didn't want to break the game, I didn't want to have a starting character that can walk into the hard places and wreck everything. It was my tongue-in-cheek way to say "I think I found a good balance between ease-of-game and not running ahead in the story".

 

None of the places I cleared would have stopped me in normal. They would have taken me more time, use of tactics, perhaps some items or a reload.

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1 hour ago, alhoon said:

I can't understand why Zakary lied!? He could well have been open to everyone, saying "You know what? We're doing our experiments further in the valley. We have a guarded tunnel so that if needed we can shut the whole place down." Why hiding behind a failed colony? Why even let the colony fail and remain a dustblown ruin?

 

Presumably if he said that, the investigating Shapers (that he knew would come sooner or later) would want to go investigate the experiments.  His plan to hide things wasn't a great one, but it was better than that.

 

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

On another note, I can see the appeal of the game. It is indeed different than GF4-5 in the part that it's more mystery than desperate fight for survival \ changing the world. Early GF3 was somewhat like that.

 

Heh!  Well, it was for you.  For the rest of us, who played G1-2 first, there was very little mystery, and instead a sense of boring deja vu.

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10 minutes ago, Slartibus said:

Heh!  Well, it was for you.  For the rest of us, who played G1-2 first, there was very little mystery, and instead a sense of boring deja vu.

 

Which part was boring deja-vu? Early GF3?

Nah, it was nice IMO. The "mystery" part of GF2 is at least up to now to "what happened to Barzahl? What are the Shapers hiding? What's in the valley?" (which I haven't gone to yet, since I try desperately, and failing to charge the amulet I was given by Sharon)

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Posted (edited)

Finally abandoned my efforts to fill up the amulet and went to confront the source of all lies, Zakary. The text once I got to his throne room:

"He is terrified, he can barely stop shaking" :sick: 

"Though you're still only an apprentice, he looks at you with fear".

 

He's frankly worse than Diwanya. At least that guy was young and had some dignity. That's the best the Shapers have in the area? I want to see what he'll say when I charge in his castle with a bunch of gazers and Drakons to incinerate everything. I expect I'll find him hidden behind his throne, begging for mercy.

 

Wait, the first thing I am given as a question is "do you know what happened to Shanti?" First, it's Agent Shanti. Second... isn't she out scouting the tunnel? And if Zakary found the courage to whimper an order for someone to kill her, shouldn't he just... include me, the person finding the tunnel and the valley, in the request for elimination?

And why do I learn something happened to Agent Shanti while surrounded by Turrets and 772 hp guards of the man that had the most cause to order her assassination?

 

And the answer to the other thread: (although coming from a lying, shaking piece of deceiving poop I can't speak about it's veracity)

Guardian Barzahl "could have been a fantastic Agent"

And they were sent to Sucia island. I can see where this discussion is going...

 

EDIT:

Oh...

You...

Old...

Fool!

 

Wait till I have gazers, and you'll pay for your crimes. Barzahl is next (unless he convinces me that he did that to overthrow the corrupt Shaper Empire that produces Zakaries, Taygens and Monarchs).

Sure, I'll go with the rebellion, but that amount of idiocy is astounding. Those "few dozen" that include "smart serviles from Sucia" will burn down the world! (sure, the world needs a to be burned down but ... )

Hintsight is 20/20, I know, but how on earth couldn't that old, lying moron see the problem of fetching serviles that according to him had access to power he didn't understand because of lack of talent !?

 

I remember, and I am appauled, his first speech when telling me that Serviles must suffer and that Shaper Law should be followed because one Shaper can do a terrible damage by releasing the wrong creation at the wrong time.

And Zakary and Barzahl brought dozens of creations that had "powers".

It's like being told all your life to not press the red button cause it launches a nuke which could lead to nuclear war. And then deciding that perhaps a nuke attack wouldn't lead to widespread nuclear war and then you decide to push it a couple dozen times...

And people all around the world say the Shapers are the reliable people to use Shaping? All they do is proving Trakovites right! No, most of the rebellion are more responsible than Shapers. At least, when they designed the Shredbugs they knew what they were doing. They were not pressing the red button and hoped for poweeerz +  the best

 

 

EDIT2: (after calming out somewhat)

Agent Shanti's reluctance to use creations seems to have been her downfall. Now it falls to her poor apprentice to locate her...

But hey! I found what I was looking for. A place that according to a very welcome pillar says that everyone ahead of there is Free from Shaper Tyranny forever*!

 

*forever being short for "Until Litalia comes in and kills mostly everyone and then deciding to wipe out the other side instead"

 

EDIT3: Starting to miss the 2-sides of the GF3-4 already or the "mostly 2 sides, but with sects" of GF5.  

Meet some free serviles. The very people I am trying to fight for. They tell me "You're a loyal Shaper, you have to die" Oh, well, has happened at other times too. Then more Serviles come in. They attack the others to help me.

Apparently, Free Serviles have as much problem with their own kind as humans.

 

And then I learn that Barzahl of all people is leading... the Serviles that attacked me.

 

EDIT4: The intro text for Medab suggests that all people in the town were smuggled in or created by the Lifecrafters Rebel Shapers. So it appears that they did, at first, Shape Serviles.

Seems such a nice, idyllic place... I can't bear the thought that Litalia will blast them apart just because they want to live free. :(  In one of the most pointless slaughters in the history of Terrestia since a couple months later she will take their side. Or well, the side that Ghaldring is in. Although I assume (and hope) in the end Litalia's ruthless purge united all the serviles together.

 

EDIT5: Ahh... too good to last. The Awakened think the Shapers will honor their word to them. And deal with them. I think they have not met many Shapers. From what I was told Barzahl is more militant... wants to fight the Shapers to gain their independence. And there's a mad bunch of Serviles that are militant Trakovite-types wanting to end all Shapers. Why they don't follow the other militants that want to fight the Shapers, I guess I'll have to ask them to learn. And then, the much beloved gossip: Barzahl is using illegal Shaping to become "more strong and more mad". That's a fitting description for a Drakon. I have to go find Drakons.

I really wish the game extended to the time the Shapers arrived in force, to see if they would work together or go down sect by sect...

 

 

EDIT6: AHA! More lies of lying Zakary the Deceiver unveiled. While he pretended it was all Barzahl's idea and the Lifecrafters rebel Shapers were followers of Barzahl when he came here, Carnelian tells me (and I believe her) that she was a follower of Zakary and that it was his idea to build these settlements here.

And Carnelian seems to be one of the most sane and measured Shapers I've met in 4 games (along with the Lethia pass turret Shaper and the wannabe Lifecrafer Shaper in Dhonal Island).

 

 

Certainly a worthy game so far. Alhoon is pleased. Thank you Slarty for finally convincing me to try it.
Yes, it has severe problems in how clunky it feels, but the plot is certainly interesting.

Edited by alhoon

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Posted (edited)

Playing that much of the game together gave me a short-of-nightmare. I went to bed thinking of the nice people I met beyond the Deceiver's tomb-wannabe (Drypeak).

 

And in the half-asleep state replayed in my mind some of the discussions and all, even "filling the gaps" of shorts as I imagined\dreamed how they would act and react etc.

And how Litalia will kill most of them. How Carnelian, Learned Piner, that 12-years-old servile kid that was too young to be put to work but Shapers would put to work anyways, the blacksmith, the merchants would die before Litalia would suddenly decide to change sides.

I fell in the trap and got invested with many of them.

 

GF2 may be clunky but it has a lot of likeable and interesting NPCs. Even Lying Zakary the shaking Deceiver is interesting in his way, for the contempt and hate he provokes in me. It's painful to suddenly realize they will die in flames, torn to pieces by Litalia's creations.

 

From All the rebel factions there, why did Litalia had to choose the mad shapers-should-die-whatever-the-cost ones?! OK, the awakened were hilariously doomed anyway (which makes it all the more painful since I like all of them that I've met so far).

I mean, really?! That's what you went for Litalia? Really?

 

************** GF5 spoilers ****************

Litalia has a history of picking the "what?!" faction. The Takers. Great name by the way. But ...

and then leaving the Rebellion for the Trakovites. Who, Litalia. "My convictions are pure, but I am not clean... so here's a Trakovite lair brimming to the tip with turrets and tier 5 creations." Sure, that would kinda work. Nobody would expect to fight shocktralls and Burning Kyshaaks in a Trakovite safehouse.

Edited by alhoon

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I'm not going to spoil anything, but I remind you that, unlike G4 and G5, which both effectively have two endings with some slight differences based on your allegiances, Geneforge 2 has possibly the most unique endings of the entire series (4 - one for each sect, possibly 5 if you're unaligned, and I believe canister modifications for some endings). Consequently, Litalia doesn't have to come in and incinerate your precious itty bitty serviles.

 

Also, Litalia doesn't kill them all. She was just an apprentice Shaper. She didn't gain any real powers until between G2 and G3. They sent, like, ALL THE SHAPERS.

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Posted (edited)

Not how I remember what she said in GF4 and GF5... she was quite open on incinerating Serviles and how she had nearly completed the job when Ghaldring turned her to the Rebellion. So even if she wasn't the top purger, she was certainly more than a mere apprentice.

 In any case, I don't know the rest of the people that will kill my friends in the "official" ending, I know Litalia.

 

Here:



"Tell me more. Who are you?";

I am Litalia. Once, I was Shaper Litalia. A good, loyal Shaper. Young. Unthinking. Following the rules. Making the required hordes. I had promise. Thus, I was given an important mission. I traveled to a village called Drypeak, in the mountains to the south. A rogue Shaper was making new, unauthorized creations. The previous Shaper sent to deal with the situation had not succeeded. My job was to purge the mountains, destroying anything that displayed even a hint of the rogue. And it was there that I first met drayks. And drakons."

"And what happened then?";

 "I had traveled through the mountains, slaughtering as I went. It was the first time I had killed for the Shapers. It unsettled me. Then, in the highest peaks, I led an assault on an uncontrolled underground lair. "

That's the "final" version of Litalia's story. That's my friends she speaks of. :( Poor Awakened...

From what she says, she was alone or nearly alone.

And note "this was the first time I had killed for the Shapers". If that's true then when later (or earlier) Litalia speaks about incinerating Serviles begging for their lives... it was my friends. Cause my friends are kinda weak and include several people that lack backbone. Including that young servile kid that was ready to bow and obey me despite being in an Awakened city.

Edited by alhoon

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Litalia changes her story about that between games though.  She's inconsistent.  I'm willing to trust her as a person, but given her canister intake, that doesn't mean her memory is going to be 100% accurate.  Frankly, the concept that the Shaper Council would hear about everything in Drypeak (including spoilers) and then send one (1) young Shaper there to take care of it is hilarious.  And also quite disproved by the actual G2 endings.

 

G1 and G2 both have significantly more diversity in their endings than the later games do.  Even though the later games do make it clear what the "canonical" ending is (and not based on Litalia's memory, based on, you know, how the war actually went) I think you need to take all the possibilities into account when you are judging people -- or sects.  Because they all could have happened.

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Could have happened. But they didn't canonically. :(

And I was wrong, Litalia didn't say she went alone in GF4. She says she was part of a group. Also Barzahl and Litalia were both said to be very talented. Barzahl was placed under Zakary because of their age and experience difference but (and now I am serious) I don't believe anything Zakary says so I'll go meet Barzahl and see what he has to say.

In any case, young and talented Shapers were not (for good reason) allowed to do such stuff themselves even if their "handlers" are weaker than them. Astoria is open that she's not as powerful as Quothe or some of the Shapers she leads. [Story / game segregation here? Or she lies? Cause in the final battle she does tons of damage and she's harder to kill than most of her Shapers] 

 

As for Litalia's memory... in GF5 we play a person that lost all his or her memories because of canister abuse. You're well within your rights to say "Yeah, that Litalia remembers it that way, doesn't mean it was that way". But from both GF4 and GF5 Litalia's story was that she was an important player in the genocide of my friends. Both such genocides actually cause she killed a lot of my Shaper friends in GF3-5 too. Or, well, ahem... ordered me to do it and I did. But I was following caniste  orders! Didn't help me feel better though. I feel very bad about causing Rockfall to fall. The most likeable loyalists were there.

 

Speaking of endings:

Without too many spoilers please, where would I be "locked" in an ending-cycle?

Or it's more like GF4 that you could do whatever and just push the switch in the end and choose who wins?  

If I swear loyalty to someone (Lying Zakary the Deceiver was bullied by my level 6 or 7 apprentice to offer me the chance to swear loyalty), would I be able to break out?
 

So far I am... very early in the game. Spoke with the Awakened, lots of them. Haven't spoken with the Takers or Rising's serviles. Haven't done any quests for them (I think), although I'm definitely going to try and relieve the disease that plagues them. My first instinct was Zakary's people but frankly they're not skilled enough or ... illegal enough to unleash a disease. Probably some of the other serviles.

 

Canisters:

Is 6 the magic number? Is it 8? Is there any nice fellow like GF3-5 that can tell me when I am approaching doom?

Edited by alhoon

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You can leave all factions by telling them that you want out except Zak, if you want to leave him you have to join another faction.

 

Not even sure that using canisters does anything appreciable in G2.

Edited by Nim

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I completed G2 probably a year or two ago, and started replaying it again recently, so this is non-spoilering conjecture. I suspect that Rising and the Barzites were responsible for the disease, since Carnelian asks you to go to their university library and look for information on it. Chances are, if they have information, and especially since they're insane people who hate the Awakened, they're responsible for the disease. Bullies. > : (

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Canister use does figure in the endings, some more than others.

 

Each of the 5 endings requires completing a different set of tasks.  Most of these endings (not quite all, I think?  Not sure) require killing or enraging at least one of the people who serve as taskmaster for another ending, but usually this is late in the chain.  So you can complete almost all of the game, except for a handful of tasks.  Note however that you do have to manage your reputation (a la G4) in order to be suitably appealing to a given faction, so while you can potentially switch around, you can't switch between the more conservative and more liberal ends of the spectrum many times.

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11 minutes ago, Shut Your Eyes and said:

Canister use does figure in the endings, some more than others.

 

 

Thanks. I plan to use 1 for Gazers, 1 for Drakons, 2 for Vlish (if they're as good as GF3 ones) +2 more that give good\useful abilities like blessing magic or Shaping or intelligence.

With 6 canisters would I be on the good endings? Or go to the crazy size?

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Vlish are excellent.  Not head and shoulders above every other option, but still certainly one of the best options.  If you go Magic Shaping there's really no need for other options.  Eyebeasts especially are also fun.

 

I don't remember the exact cutoff, but you can surely find it here.

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Never managed to make an Eyebeast in 3 games. :( Haven't even SEEN one. I don't know how they look like. Except if they're so close to Gazers in color that I couldn't tell them apart if I met one.

Magic shaping eh? Well, that's the one Shaping skill I have a 1 at... I've been going battle and fire Shaping to make my early-game creations powerful (I have a Cryora and a clawbug. Planning to add a Vlish, but I need skill points to boost other stuff than intelligence and magic. Mind magic to cast unlock. Blessing magic to cast blessings that don't go away nearly instantly, that kind of thing. )

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Battle Shaping is not as bad in G1-2 as it is in G3-4, but it's still pretty bad.  Fire Shaping is fine though.  Cryoas especially are good.

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2 hours ago, alhoon said:

Carnelian didn't tell me to go to their university...

She tells you after you give her (I think they are) major healing spores. Basically the second part of the cure series.

 

Eyebeasts are green gazers. That's it. They have an aura of flames ranged attack and the same kind of melee attack as gazers.

 

Also, if you really want an actually FUN gameplay experience, here's what I'd suggest: Choose any class, and add onto the obelisk in the first zone (outside the essence/healing pool building) an editor for your stats, and up your mechanics and leadership to 30. That'll be the extent of your editing. You'll get loads of extra XP and can open some super-locked doors with only a few living tools (one door at the beginning of Freegate takes 6 or so to open at 30 mechanics, and you can kill the serviles inside before they turn hostile later; also, you can get a student's belt and shaped shield in the guardian dormitories in the Drypeak warrens for only 1 living tool per door). At normal difficulty, the game should be fairly easy anyway, ESPECIALLY as a Shaper. This lets you experience the entire game, mechanics areas included, and the extra XP will keep you a step ahead of the game.

 

Also, get the graphics mods for G1 (as I assume you'll be playing it later) and G2. Sometimes they break the game, sometimes not, depending on the computer, apparently. Make backups, obviously, but the mods make it actually look less horrible (no more puke-green G1 GUI yay).

 

Battle shaping is never any good. Fire creations usually have fairly good melee, moreso in G1 and G2 than later games, from what I know. Glaahks make solid melee creations in the earlier games, unlike in later games - if you're going for magic shaping for terror vlish anyway, they're a good choice to invest some coins in. I also suggest just going for stat boosting canisters for your 2 extras, preferably intelligence or endurance.

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Nah, 30 mechanics and leadership seems cheaty. I slowly raise them spending hard-earned skill points (and I have cheated to get tinker gloves without looking from them in places I don't want to go).

I play the game at easy and it's not very easy; it's fairly easy. Since I don't plan to micromanage items or seek good equipment unless it falls on my hands (like the bracelet Sharon gave me) I expect that to change later.

 

Is there a Graphics mod for GF2?! That's awesome news. I have already changed the Thands, the unarmed Serviles, and Shapers to GF4 graphics and I am on the process of changing the warrior serviles.

Can I get a link for the Graphics mod for GF2?

 

As for battle Shaping, my nice and trusty clawbug is good tanking at the moment. I am lvl 9 and I have 23 hp... (endurance 3) so I need someone to get the turret attacks.

 

And now: Just when you think you have seen the end of Zakary's lies. Brodus Blade (a real shame he will die :( )  told me that the Serviles in Sucia started learning magic. And once in here, they sped up their studies thanks to Zakary. How nice of Zakary to "forget" to mention that while horrified with what was happening, he taught serviles how to use magic. I mean, that's the guy that was angry with me for not agreeing that serviles need to be flogged from time to time (have you seen the whips they use on the poor creatures?) to remain obedient.

In GF3-5 there are few things I found as annoying as the Servile Icecasters and Mindcasters. Yes, they are necessary. Yes, they helped the Drakons and were worth like 5 servile warriors each. But when you had to face them, they were annoying with the debuff-and-run-away strategy.

 

As for the Awakened: They're kinda too pro-Shaper. Brodus Blade, one of their respected high-ranks even told me that painting people with a broad brush is something the Shapers do, so he won't blame me for the crimes other Shapers did. I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm saying that I play the 1% of the Shapers that would talk with him.

Edited by alhoon

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I was on my way... then a random evil servile from the Takers, that couldn't even speak properly, told me to go kill a guard "to the West". I am trying to find that servile guard to the "West" of his position to warn her.

 

THIS HAPPENED! :mad:

And on top of that, I can't cut and run cause there's a poor ornk trapped nearby that I got to save.

 

EDIT: Aside of the whole area being a huge fest of exploding roamers, enough to put to shame a major city's 4th-of-July firework show + some ghosts that I can't deal with ... Twini was not there. She was even further west. As such, the whole zone seems pretty useless. I didn't even get proper XP! 1xp/roamer... :/ A tedius area with little to no rewards.

In any case, I found Twini to the West. No dialogue for me to warn her about the Taker spy. Meh. A lot of wasted effort.

 

EDIT2: Went to the mage complex instead. I learned that there's another Shaper there, teaching serviles magic. Tuldaric. :)

Tuldaric, bless his or her soul, Shaped out the evil magic-block Shapers put on the Serviles that was driving Servile spellcasters mad. So, I know now, who I have to thank in every game that I speak with Servile casters that are not tattoo-scarred cultists and mad. I don't know why the serviles keep practicing the pre-Tuldaric magic that drives them mad. I assume because poor Tuldaric didn't have the time to Shape out the blocks for all serviles, so we have the Tuldaric-mages and the mad, scarred-tattooed ones.

 

We're growing in strength. I assume the Shapers would made an example of any Shapers working with the Awakened (or any rebel) but perhaps some will escape and become Lifecrafters.

 

Frankly, I think Tuldaric is one of the unsang heroes of the Rebellion for this since magic to serviles is very, very important and the non-Tuldaric ones are... uncontrollable and insane. I hope he survives Litalia's purge and I hope the Tuldaric-version of Servile Magic makes its way out of the Drypeaks.

After all, Ghaldring told me in GF5 that Gazaki-Uss is near where the Drakons were first made.

 

I like how GF2 is full of characters. It's combat zones are tedious and seem redundant compared to other games (After the big roamer explosive fest there was a zone with Twini and lots of vlish leading clawbugs. Nothing interesting there except a cloak of deadeye) but there are many people to talk with, colorful and interesting. GF5 was full of merchants and people that while having nice discussion didn't made any impact.

 

EDIT3: In the library of the Magus complex I found a book on languages. For the few places nearby not under Shaper control  O_O

There were places in the continent outside of Shaper control in GF2 era? From Litalia's tales, GF2 seems to have happened some years before GF3 which happened about 10-11 years before GF5. So... would that be 25-30 years before GF5?

Does that mean that about a generation before GF5 there were still free lands?

Does the book speak about the Dera Reaches and other wastelands that are nominally under Shaper control but they control the cities and the surrounding area and the nomads go about their business? (Or at least Taygen seems to think he's just nominally their boss and doesn't pay them a second thought).

Is it perhaps something that the creator of the game changed his mind about through the years between making GF2 and GF4-5?  

PS. It's not about the language of the Sholai, since ... Sharon's book language is not there.

Good Grief, I have to go aaaaall the way to Rising for that.

 

 

EDIT4: Ahh... too good to last. Apparently my buddy Tuldaric is hoarding power for his side and he or she shapes humans too. I wonder what type of magic requires one to be Shaped to be able to cast it. But it can't be good for one's sanity. Still, Teaching only the sworn allies and acting as a Tuldaric-forge is not that bad.

Tuldaric still is good in my book.

 

As for Litalia's memory: There's no way one  (or 5 or 10 Shapers for that matter) would be able to take on the Drypeaks whatever her talent. The Awakened alone have 4 Shapers I've met or heard about.

The Lying deceiving coward (Zakary) has two that I've met and Shanti will probably be dead (by my hand if it has to be that way) by the time Litalia and the rest come to resubjugate the Serviles.

Even if the Shapers plan to camp on Drypeak colony and send armies of battle Alphas and Vlish to kill everything in the valley, the Rebels have enough Shapers to just out-Shape them. Not to mention that everyone expects and prepares* for the Shapers to come and there are enough mages and trained warriors there to kill some Shapers even in their Drypeak base if it comes to that.

 

*Well, not everyone prepares since the Awakened seem to think that the Shapers would consider speaking with them, when they will probably open fire the moment they see a servile in the distance. Some of the Awaken prepare. Others seem lax.

 

EDIT5: Raeche... totally a lifecrafter. I doubt that very nice fellow will make it though. He seems determined to defend what they've been building there and realizes that Shapers would kill him for the audacity of considering serviles respectable creatures.

One of the problems with war is that the wrong people die on it... opportunist buttholes survive at great rate than people with morals and conviction.

You don't see many like Raeche in GF4-5. They've been killed, joined the Rebellion or hide their views. In GF3, there are some but since the world is burning they don't dwell much in philosophy.

 

 

EDIT6: The more I learn about that place, Pentil, the more I pity the Serviles there. The Shapers are atrocious. I cannot begin to imagine why on earth in GF5 the good serviles would choose to name their place "Penta" in honor of the place of the worst Shaper betrayal to their kind?

Edited by alhoon

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WOW! I can get an Awakened Tulda-forged mage that is itching for a fight instead of placidly waiting for Litalia to kill him!?

Is Xander an NPC I can get with me? Does he talk and offer opinions etc if I do?

 

EDIT: Oh well... I should have expected that Tuldaric would have been completely unhinged from Tuldaforging himself. While he keeps his convictions towards the Servile liberation*, he's power-lust led him to be quite detached. Every Tuldaforged servile seems completely unaffected by canister madness. But Tuldaric? He is on the verge of forgetting to speak like a person, let alone remember what "being human" is.

I am not 100% sure it's an effect of too much self-Shaping as some Serviles suggest as... pure narcissism and megalomania that self-Shaping brought to the surface. Some people are mad to begin with, no canisters or platforms involved.

The Drakons would approve, I am sure. Perhaps they would even "cure" him from his interest to helping Serviles* and help him redirect his talent to truly "noble" cause like ReShaping Drakons.

 Perhaps the Ritual affects only humans and leaves Serviles sane? Is he using a different one on Serviles than on himself? I will have to find out sooner or later, cause Tuldaforging seems interesting but if it leads humans to be unhinged...

we'll see.
 

* Nope. He has "cured" himself from that. By his own admission, he hasn't thought about that for a long time and he remembers that it used to be of interest of him till his "line of work" led him elsewhere (Sounds like "Shape to Godhood" Drakon complex). He even admits "I joined with the Awakened. Or that's what I remember." 

Both funny and very sad. To see such a champion of the Serviles, of equality in magic, of everything that's good in the Awakened faction after he lost his mind... I so much wish I have met the early Tuldaric as he was trying to help Serviles like Raeche.

Edited by alhoon

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QUESTION:

Terror Vlish and 18th lvl Cryora

or Vlish, Cryora, Clawbug?

 

I have the Cryoa and the Clawbug and enough essence to make a Vlish, but if I go for Terror Vlish, the Clawbug has to go.

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Lose the Clawbug.  It'll never be as useful as the others.  Definitely keep the Cryoa since you've levelled it.  Personally I'd just make two Vlish now and make some Terror Vlish later when you have more essence to play with.  The Vlish will want the extra levels more than the Terror Vlish do, and having extra Slow effects hit your enemies is *always* useful.

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What the terror vlish does? I don't have any. Thanks BTW

 

Edited by alhoon

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Man, my plated Clawbug is hilariously useless. Level 20 and as tough as the lvl 18 Cryora, with the lvl 16, ranged, slowing Vlish having 20% less HP...

And it costs 45+intelligence essence while the Vlish costs 15+intelligence.

 

LoL.

 

Creations.png

 

 

By Tuldaric's beard! Terror Vlish is 22 level, costs me 4 essence less than the plated clawbug, and has more hp. Sure it doesn't make 2 attacks per round. It just makes sure that the enemy lose their rounds. I have Icerim, Mirebag and Horrorshiver (Terror Vlish)

It seems I'll be getting back to those difficult rogues in the mines after all... :cool:

 

EDIT:

My friend Carnelian is kinda under-informed. She went into a big speech on how Clawbugs and Fyoras are made sterile. Clawbug canyon: Clawbug mommy. :/ 

Get in with the times Carnelian.

 


EDIT2: Apologies to all of you that love GF2. I like the NPCs and the factions and the world too. But the game suffers from poor design choices. Some zones are pure tedium torture for no reason. Others are frustration-fests.

I went through a large open place that had so many mines that deactivating them I got a level and a half. And it wasn't Yooohooo! level! It was nearly 40 mins of grueling work hoping you don't misclick to hit next to the mine or that one of your creations won't trigger another mine or if you have left your creations away and inactive that you won't be hit by glaahks hidden in gestation vats. The numbers I had to reload was insane. Why had the zone to be so large? And if you make it so large, would it kill you to put something worthwhile in those small-and-far-between buildings?

Now, I am in a frusti-fest. A place called Upper research hall.

Pathfinding issues and tiny corridors leave my character blocked next to some poison\acid pools because once you click on a corridor, your creations may block it and the character stops moving. He doesn't move next to the creations, mind you. Nope. He stops moving at the time the corridor is blocked. I have died like 3-4 times that way.

And the mines in there are hard to see. Add 6-7 more deaths. And I am like 1/4th of the complex done. And have found nothing of interest.

 

 

EDIT3: So apparently (according to a Shaper named Elissia in a complex deadly as an Unbound's hunting ground) is running the place as a gang boss, with thugs pressing people into service and those that chose to leave, "missing". Sounds like a charming fellow. Ghaldring-wannabe. At least he has the sense to fight. 

Still... the Takers, sounding as the mad extremists here kinda make the most sense. Unless the Shapers are broken, completely, there can't be peace. From what I was told by the Awakened, the Barzites want war of independence from the Shapers. Weeeeell... folks, I think it needs to be a rebellion and war of subjugation of the Shaper council. Even if the Barzites win today they will lose in a generation. Or two. You either get a huge chunk of the Shaper world to make sure you have the numbers when they attack you and gain their grudging respect or don't go at it at all.

 

And Elissia said something funny on the line of "Real danger here, unless we address these problems we may face disaster" You don't say?! Well, the main disaster came when the Shapers tried to deal with these dangers, causing one of their most talented to switch sides.

Your tyrannical masters are already on their way out Elissia, they just don't know it.

Edited by alhoon

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Re: zones you found boring:

No one makes you clear all the zones. For anywhere you need to go / anything of game importance you want to do, there's almost certainly more than one route, so if a zone bores you to death, there's a strong chance you can ignore it with no serious consequences.

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On 5/16/2017 at 8:28 PM, alhoon said:

EDIT6: The more I learn about that place, Pentil, the more I pity the Serviles there. The Shapers are atrocious. I cannot begin to imagine why on earth in GF5 the good serviles would choose to name their place "Penta" in honor of the place of the worst Shaper betrayal to their kind?

Everyone just seems to... sorta forget Vakkiri. Probably because the Awakened don't make it to Geneforge 3. The serviles allegedly named Penta after Pentil to annoy the serviles of Kaz (Kazg was the Taker village from Geneforge 1).

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59 minutes ago, TheKian said:

Everyone just seems to... sorta forget Vakkiri. Probably because the Awakened don't make it to Geneforge 3. The serviles allegedly named Penta after Pentil to annoy the serviles of Kaz (Kazg was the Taker village from Geneforge 1).

 

 

 

Learned -?- told me about Vakiri. Birthplace of Awakened, the good faction of GF. Too good to survive. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Triumph said:

Re: zones you found boring:

No one makes you clear all the zones. For anywhere you need to go / anything of game importance you want to do, there's almost certainly more than one route, so if a zone bores you to death, there's a strong chance you can ignore it with no serious consequences.

 

I was looking for quests and loot in some of them. And I didn't expect them to be either a roamer-fest without purpose, or at least a spawner to give them the satisfaction that I achieved something, or a flat plate with dozens of mines guarding... healing pods and chainmails. :(

All in all, I didn't know they were that boring.

Also the Upper Research Hall, was not boring; it was frustrating because of the pathfinding issues. I found a ton of good loot there (canister of Vlish > ~30 reloads), interesting lore about plants and Shapers and an interesting NPC.

 

Still, having finally pushed through the hellish Upper Hall, I found an agent loyal to Lying Zakary the Deceiver. He had sent several loyalists after me to the fort Shaper Elissia told me about. This agent seems at least to have some backbone, unlike the coward.

 

OH COME ON! The Barzites have the DUMB kind of Servile! Outside Ghent I found only the uneducated, simple servile kind ready to take orders from Shapers and inside the town, I got the text message that they have the dumb serviles Shaper society is used to.

They're not Rebels! They're rebellious Shapers that want power for themselves! :mad:

Litalia will bring some justice to them and their kind. Twice.

 

 

EDIT:

Aaah.. Dawn. Everything that's wrong with the Shapers with a lot of the things that are wrong with the Drakons. How nice.

 

If Barzites are like that, then I'll have to side with either the Takers or the Awakened. While the Barzites have numbers and strength, they're Drakon-mad and Shaper oppressing. More like the GF5 Ghaldring's Drakons but worse towards the Serviles.

"Proper serviles, that would do whatever you tell them to do" ? "Treating them like the Shaper Council does" ? "Hunting down" the serviles that flee? Seriously Dawn? 

Shapers + Canisters.
Nah, worse than Drakons. At least the Drakons were not THAT bad towards the Serviles.

 

I have to speak with more Barzites. If they are like that stomach-turning gal, Dawn, there's a good chance I would work with everyone to take these down. Worse than the Shapers, worse than the Drakons.

Edited by alhoon

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1 hour ago, alhoon said:

OH COME ON! The Barzites have the DUMB kind of Servile! Outside Ghent I found only the uneducated, simple servile kind ready to take orders from Shapers and inside the town, I got the text message that they have the dumb serviles Shaper society is used to.

They're not Rebels! They're rebellious Shapers that want power for themselves! :mad:

Litalia will bring some justice to them and their kind. Twice.

Barzites internally use loyalist reputation, if memory serves correctly. They stroke your ego, but they sure ain't nice.

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They seem to respond well to Shaper answers and are angry and call me an idiot when I talk about servile rights. They are less civilized than Shapers too, less patient. They seem Canister-mad even the ones like Dawn that don't have used Canisters.
I just met a Servile, having been literally robbed by a Shaper that's a Shaper for a few months. That guy makes Glaahks. Can't control them. I have been fighting Bernard's Glaahks for some time. I think Bernard will face my 4 Vlish + Cryora army, cause I'm up to my eyebrows with disgust for the Barzites.

 

Litalia is coming. Litalia will bring them to justice (because they pay well and have warriors with 770hp, so I kinda won't bring them to justice for a long time, except Bernard that I will brutally murder.)

 

EDIT: Met Bernard. "I was a trader not far from here. Barzahl met me and made me a Shaper a few months ago" (and of course Bernard has 260 hp while I have 40 and can make but not control Glaahks and Ur-Glaahks while I am at Vlish).

I am not against Barzahl shaping power, but some more care to not give Shaping to complete idiots that now think they own the world and create monsters they can't control and rob serviles is required. We're not in the Rebellion yet where life-crafters were needed to be mass-produced.

Even the Geneforge BTW, starts one at fyoras, not Glaahks.

And I see Bernard can make an artifact armor. One I'm not going to get since...

Bernard will die. He's not even a Shaper to have the excuse that he has been indoctrinated in abusing Servile. He's just a bully. A common robber in Shaper robes that can make Glaahks.

 


EDIT2: Gaaaazers! Well, the Bazrites do two things correct: Spread Shaper knowledge (even if they do so to immoral idiots) and they make Gazers.

EDIT3: I take it back. Drakons made the Gazers and that one just deserted the Takers to join the Bazrites saying he doesn't want war with the Shapers. :/ 
I was told the Bazrites do want war with the Shapers to gain independence and I have seen the fortifications in Ghetha and frankly, the very zone the Gazer is responsible for is a battle station to rapidly make, improve and arm battalion after battalion of warrior-creations and warbred serviles. To say "I don't want war with your kind" in a factory making weapons to fight the Shapers is bizarre.

But Thot-Tha is prescient: Yes, the Drakons will become better in Shaping than the Shapers. Yes that will lead to war. Yes it will be mad. And yes, it will be glorious. :cool:.

A pity Litalia & co will kill the one Bazrite I like so far.

 

 

EDIT4: Still looking for Bazrahl, explored Southern 1/3 of Rising.

Here's some thoughts:

 


- Canisters are said to be difficult to make but there are nearly a dozen in a lab by a 3-month-Shaper (Corin)


- Wait, what? The Bazrites are so canister mad to think that the drakons will obey them? :D MWAHAHAHAHA... I guess they have not seen many Drakons. Even if they make them. Hilarious.

- Spoke with a guard. They expect to all become Guardians sooner or later after enough canisters are made. An army of Shapers. Mad Shapers. What could go wrong?
And how arrogant is Bazrahl to think that he won't be challenged or that he can keep an army of undisiplined Shapers and Drakons in line?

 

- Oh, I see they use brainwashing to resubjugate the serviles to blind obedience. Worse fate than death. These people are disgusting


- Hmmm... Shaper Corin (for lack of a better title) seems to have gone through the right procedure. Weeks to adjust to the powers, not many canisters. Quite sane and polite. 
Of course, Shaper Corin works for an institution that demands absolute obedience from Serviles but unlike protecting them, it also breds them as warriors probably because they're easier to control than Alphas.
At least they let humans like Shingle work with magic. They're more egalitarian when it comes to who can have access to magic. Goes by talent not loyalty to a rigid set of laws.
- More hilarity... the creations are controlled by the equivalent of large control batons that cause pain, not pacification pylons

The Bazrites are better than the Shapers in some things but... they lack control and they have bit WAY MORE than they can chew. Tuldaric is powerhungry. But at least he doesn't assume he can control an army of Drakons nor he feels safe behind a network of big staves controled remotely to keep hordes of creations in line.
So... yeah, irresponsible egalitarian Shaper is very bad. Not going to align with them. Use them for a bit, turn them against the Shapers and pull the rug under them.

Between Bazrite and Shaper, I would have to pick Shapers. They are equally horrid to serviles and while Shapers are hoarding power while Bazrites are egalitarian, Shapers are much more reliable. It is Takers or Awakened at this point (and I haven't spoken with the Takers)

 

 



And yet... the GF4 Drakons could have got a lesson from the Bazrites.
Instead of the Unbound they could go the Bazrite way. "Hey, caravan master? Here's the geneforge. Make yourself a Shaper and start making Alphas" The 3 year preparing period the player had prior to using the geneforge was a huge investment in such dire situation. Shaper Corin seems to be fine. Shaper Trace (Shaper for a month) seems to be OK-ish, although she underestimates how difficult control is. And the Geneforge in Southforge gave people very little power it should have been stronger. Not too much, but it was not the time to be veeeery cautious and have people at the make-fyora level.
Bazral got that part better than the human rebels.
 

Edited by alhoon
feat. Ganrick likes this

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7 hours ago, alhoon said:

They're not Rebels! They're rebellious Shapers that want power for themselves!

...So they are rebellious but NOT rebels? :p  LOL.

 

6 hours ago, alhoon said:

To say "I don't want war with your kind" in a factory making weapons to fight the Shapers is bizarre.

No it's not. The Shapers are know to exterminate those who violate their law (as you've referenced repeatedly with the story of Litalia et al.). Every group in the Drypeak Mountains knows it's only a matter of time before the Shapers come and try to wipe them out for they way they break from Shaper orthodoxy. It's perfectly possible for an Awakened or Barzite to be making war preparations while insisting they don't want war and only want to be left independent to go their own way. "I don't want to fight a war with the Shapers, but I also don't want to be completely defenseless when the Shapers inevitably come to murder me." (The Takers, of course, do desire to wage offensive war against the Shapers, so that's a little different.)

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